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Leperflesh posted:IMO you can and should, but I will defer to the PitR mods. I can't imagine it'd be a problem though? Nah, I was just joshing cause it's kind of a funny story to me. We're the kids of German immigrants so we got mainlined all these card games that only exist in rural Bavaria before we could even read. So we liked to go to the pub when we went back there and pretend to be a couple that was just visiting and ask them to teach us the game... and then once money was on the table we're talking actual German and we're raking in cash. We were basically doing the "It's my family label" scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark. I just liked the counter-grift of people who clearly thought they could get money out of us and then them going, "Wait, why are they suddenly using the correct dialect words for the cards." But it was always just beer-money and we'd spend most of it buying rounds so no hard feelings. This was usually our ancestral village of like 50 houses so it pretty rapidly turned into Haha you fell into the trap of Mannfred's niece and nephew you idiot! Like 9 years ago I made a thread for non-traditional card games where I described some of these. Maybe I should revitalize that. Watten is kind of a bitch to teach cause it's basically Satan's bridge with different numbers and suits.
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Jan 11, 2021 05:43
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I get you and honestly I think that sort of story should be welcome in PitR too, but as of right now a couple hours after opening, they don't have like a general chat thread or a community yet so it might feel a little weird to just wander in and post stories? I'm not sure, I'm a pretty big advocate of  though and also I think lots of goons should just go check out the forum and see what it has to offer, even if you have no intention of
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Jan 11, 2021 07:24
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O no, I'm sorry. We're not communicating. That was all I had and was just making a lovely joke. My bad.
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Jan 11, 2021 07:35
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Yeah no I got ya but others are are reading and maybe they've got stories or whatever too. Also please teach us weird german card games, thanks. I'm serious about this part. e. I mean you don't have to, don't feel obliged, but it'd be cool maybe if anyone else is interested.
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Jan 11, 2021 07:45
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I can try it again. I'll have to look into if you can even get the German cards in the US. In Germany they just hand them out when you go to the bank or whatever, and it's trivial to just pretend the suits and numbers and different, but the actual cards are a different shape and are different suits in full color of hell yeah let's have some acorns that look like dongs.
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Jan 11, 2021 08:03
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SkyeAuroline posted:It probably won't help that I also hate it then. I wasn't kidding by calling it racist and fascist apologia, and the whole "include a detailed rape scene in an adventure that you are required to isolate a single player for, force them to go through with you, and explicitly bar them from telling any other group member what happened both in and out of game so they have to figure it out themselves" part of Black Atlantic? Yeah that instantly shattered ANY goodwill I had towards SMV. Please feel free to review content outside of the main books so I won't have to down the line lol
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Jan 11, 2021 10:04
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Leperflesh posted:Also please teach us weird german card games, thanks. Yes, please do. Especially whatever versions of Rummy or adjacent games, because I can't remember the one my oma and mum taught me and it's been bothering me for years.
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Jan 11, 2021 12:24
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Okay, so I'll start it here and if people care enough for there to be a "card games that don't involve a traditional Marseille deck" I'll spin it into an OP for that thread. So before I can talk about any of the games I gotta talk about the actual cards. Which are a different shape, have different suits and only some of the numbers and the face cards are different. Here's a wiki article that has pictures of the cards in question : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schafkopf. (That game is actually a weird old man thing that I've never seen anyone play and I don't even know someone who might know the rules.) So the numbers go 7, 8, 9, 10 and then the face cards are Unter ("under"), Ober ("over"), Koenig ("king") and the Sau ("sow" but it means "ace" and there's a real word for "ace" but no one uses it). Then the suits are hearts (Hertz), bells (Schellen), acorns (Eichel) and leaves (Grass). No that doesn't make any sense but neither do clubs and diamonds and poo poo. Finally as a meta set-up rule there are 3 magic special cards that come up a lot in various games. Not all of them but enough that they get special names and they're gonna be relevant here. The first and the Big Boss is the Maxi, the king of hearts. Literally best card in the game, can't be countered, you just eat poo poo if someone plays it, basta. After him there's the Welle, the 7 of bells, which demolishes everything besides the Maxi. Below that is the 7 of acorns, the Spitz. These cards are always trump and count as super, super trumps. They're literally just the best three cards in the game ; if you manage to get them all in your hand you basically won the game and can't gently caress up so the combo is called the Maschien (yeah guess what that means). So with that left aside, I'm gonna teach y'all how to play Watten. There are two big kinds, one a more casual thing and the other is a cut-throat team game that's kind of like drunk bridge. I'll do both but I'm gonna start with the less complicated one for obvious reasons. Boemisch Watten : ("Bohemian Watten" ; I have no idea if it has anything to do with Bohemia, this was made up by drunk people 500 years ago.) 3 to 5 players each start at 20 points. The dealer gives them each 5 cards and flips over a card that is going to be the trump suit for the round, e.g. if it's the 9 of acorns or whatever acorns rule and everything else is garbage. Players can then discard and get more cards dependent on how many people are playing (32 card deck, do the math). The dealer, cause this is a very unfair game, gets to keep the revealed the trump card and gets one fewer card than they discarded meaning the dealer is always guaranteed one trump card. In addition, once everyone has their cards, the dealer gets to look at the top 3 cards of deck that haven't been dealt (if they exist) so they can do weird card-counting nonsense (the German is if the cards "schlafft" are asleep). You really want to be the dealer. Play goes clockwise with the person to the left of the dealer leading. You can lead whatever you want, but after that you have to follow suit if you have it, so even if you could take the trick, if you have some random low acorn you gotta play it and get hosed. The person who takes the trick then leads the next round. Continue five times until everyone is out of cards. For every trick you take in a round, you go down that many points : the goal is to be the player that reaches 0 first. (Yes, this is a weird and unintuitive way to design a scoring system, but, again drunk people 500 years ago.). However if you don't get any tricks you're "burned" (gebrentt) and actually go up 5 points. After a round the deal rotates clockwise and you keep going until someone wins. Finally a couple of side rules : 1) when the dealer is shuffling the deck before they give the cards out, they have to let the person to their right cut the deck. This person gets to look at the card on the bottom and if it's one of the magic super cards they get to keep it and are dealt one fewer card. Also then the dealer gets to look at the next card and could possibly also get a wonder card. I'm not kidding about how broken it is to be the dealer. 2) if the trump suit is hearts all points are doubled, both from getting tricks and from getting burned so if you do well you can basically set yourself up way in the lead or you can get nothing and be turbo-hosed. 3) Those mega cards? They always count as trump for purposes of following suit and if one of them is the flipped card to determine trump it's always a hearts game. 2 and 3 and just how the dealer role works means that if the dealer flips the king of hearts the whole table is going to very, very elaborately swear. I hope that made sense cause now we're gonna talk about real Watten which is kind of like the above with a dash of a German dude telling bridge to hold their many, many beers. 4 players in teams of two. Rotating deal again. You sit across from your partner so in order it's XYXY. At the beginning of every round, the dealer gives out 5 cards to the player to their left and themselves and they look at their cards. Note : the other players don't get cards yet. The non-dealer player then gets to decide which number will be trump (yes there are numbered trumps in this game) and then the dealer picks a suit to be a trump. This determines the card values for the round. Then the other players get cards. (Cue elaborate signaling about what your hand is.) It's probably best to give an example : imagine that Georg is dealing and Seppl is to his left. Seppl looks at his hand and sees he has a pair of tens so he says tens are trump. Then Georg picks acorns to be the trump suit because he has 3 of them or whatever. That means that for that round the hierarchy of cards is the Maxi > the Welle > the Spitz > the ten of acorns > the other tens (first played wins) > ace of acorns, king, etc. in descending order > everything else is basically hot garbage and only matters in the unlikely event that no one plays a trump in which case it's highest of whatever suit was lead. And everything that's trump counts as trump for purposes of following suit. If you have the right hand, opening with a really low trump is a classic dick move/pro strat. The team that manages to get the majority of the tricks gets 2 points. The teams are competing to get to 11. (No these numbers don't make any sense, deal with it.) There's the additional wrinkle that at any time a player can, as part of their turn, when they're playing a card lay it face-down which means they want to up the stakes and make the round worth 3 points. The other team then has to go with it or forfeit the round and hand the other team 2 points. Or they also have the option of calling the possible bluff and raising it to 4. Which then gets kicked back to the first team and it repeats so this can totally end up turning into a dick-waving contest where the whole game's on the line. There's also a totally buck wild sigil thing you use for scoring that looks like something out of Mage the Awakening but I'm too lazy to upload a picture since this post is already huge. And there's a betting mechanic over all of this but it's basically just "there is a kitty and the winner gets it" with some weirdness about point distribution. So yeah. Those are the two big kinds of Watten. There are other games, obviously, but those are the biggest. My Oma actually taught my older sister and me Boemisch while we were in the hospital when my little sister was born. She cheated. A lot.
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Jan 12, 2021 01:32
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https://twitter.com/KamalaKaraA1/status/1348800536552857601?s=20
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Jan 12, 2021 02:18
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Xiahou Dun posted:Watten Thank you, that is fascinating. Also a post that could totally fit in PitR, should you feel like slapping it down over there somewhere. Also those games both sound absurd and fun.
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Jan 12, 2021 02:39
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Xiahou Dun posted:The dealer, cause this is a very unfair game, [...] Yes, this is a weird and unintuitive way to design a scoring system [...] yes there are numbered trumps in this game [...] No these numbers don't make any sense, deal with it. [...] some weirdness about point distribution. Ah, so it's a trick-taking game. 
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Jan 12, 2021 02:55
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LatwPIAT posted:Ah, so it's a trick-taking game. Hey I like trick-taking games and the fact that they're unfair but it moves around is part of the charm! It leads to cool scenarios where you're in the worst spot at the table but otherwise in the lead and you're just sweating bullets because o god I just need one trick please o no why are my cards coupons for a deli that closed in 1923 ffffffuuuuuuuuck. (But a totally fair criticism.) Leperflesh posted:Thank you, that is fascinating. Also a post that could totally fit in PitR, should you feel like slapping it down over there somewhere. I doubt I ever would. I basically have never played with French cards and it's just something I know from media. Not being a weird hipster about it but I can't suddenly grow up differently and we always played with German cards. I'd feel awkward posting in a forum of people who know a lot about something I've barely ever done. But I hope at least one person inflicts Boemisch on some people.
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Jan 12, 2021 06:42
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Xiahou Dun posted:Hey I like trick-taking games and the fact that they're unfair but it moves around is part of the charm! It leads to cool scenarios where you're in the worst spot at the table but otherwise in the lead and you're just sweating bullets because o god I just need one trick please o no why are my cards coupons for a deli that closed in 1923 ffffffuuuuuuuuck. I've had lots of fun playing Hearts with friends and I've had some fun with Skat, but I have a particular loathing in my heart for President, which is just the worst. Here's roughly how it goes. Someone proposes we all play President. You, having not played President, agree because card games are fun, right? So cards are dealt, you play the first round, and because you're not the most experienced player at the table you lose. The person who proposed playing President or one of their friends who immediately said 'yes' ends up winning, because they've played it lots. You are now the Bum. The Bum has to trade their two highest card for the President's two lowest cards. It's a trick-taking game and there aren't all that many special tricks or trumps, so mostly you sit there with your terrible hand and lose the second round. You are still the Bum. Then you lose the entire game, because you're playing against more experienced players at a disadvantage it's really difficult to get rid of. I have no positive experiences of playing President. Like, with Hearts, I gently caress up and lose, but I can see that I was in the exact same position as everyone else, so it felt fair that I lost. With President, a bad hand or inexperience in the first round leads to a fairly persistent disadvantage and it just feels kinda lovely to play for me. (The out is supposed to be that playing a low double or triple can lock out everyone else form playing higher cards and taking the trick, so as the Bum you have a slightly higher chance of getting low doubles/triples, but at the same time you're always at a disadvantage for taking tricks by playing high cards.)
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Jan 12, 2021 07:13
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LatwPIAT posted:I've had lots of fun playing Hearts with friends and I've had some fun with Skat, but I have a particular loathing in my heart for President, which is just the worst. Here's roughly how it goes. I've never heard of this game, but it sounds like if Dracula sucked all of the fun out of The Great Dalmuti. (Which I won't exactly stan but my family played that with various silly hats and special chairs for the roles so it's waist-deep in nostalgia). So no wonder you hate it. In Watten you can totally get hosed over, but since the deal rotates and how strong the position is is relative to the dealer that means that every round is a whole new ball game. Unless you're like me and have more balls than brains, a usual game goes 8-9 rounds so the dealer role passes around. And you can't be turbo-hosed outside of the aforementioned being bad at bluffing. Also there's a thing that's kind of like Hearts but waaaaaaaaay more complicated that I can't even know if I can spell. Kataraxen? It's kind of like Hearts but the rules on what not to take change every round. I can cover it if there's interest. Xiahou Dun fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 07:30
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I used to own Hoyle's and I think it kind of sucks that we don't see a lot of classic card games in modern usage these days because everybody kind of moved on to video games, board games and the like. I used to play gin rummy w/ my old man when we went camping or dominoes but also played canasta; Speed was popular as a 1v1 game at my high school, as was big2 (chor dai dee, pusoy dos, etc.). Clubhouse Games on the Switch is actually a great way to play with people because it has copies of the rules, nice user experience, it's just expensive. If you know someone who you're looking to give a gift to and they have a Switch, I recommend it since it has cool traditional games to play. Doesn't have Canasta though. Fuckers...
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Jan 12, 2021 08:44
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LatwPIAT posted:I've had lots of fun playing Hearts with friends and I've had some fun with Skat, but I have a particular loathing in my heart for President, which is just the worst. Here's roughly how it goes.
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Jan 12, 2021 09:36
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i think the japanese implementation of president via daihinmin which allows for revolutions means you can turn some rounds around, but it is a game that you can get rolled at pusoy dos follows the same thing and we played so much of it so if i met your friends whom proposed to play i would go "yep" and then there'd be a slow montage of people just dramatically letting their cards fall out of their hands while i count the mangoes they have given me
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Jan 12, 2021 09:56
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Thanks for the feedback on Broken Worlds.
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Jan 12, 2021 15:58
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Xiahou Dun posted:I've never heard of this game, but it sounds like if Dracula sucked all of the fun out of The Great Dalmuti. (Which I won't exactly stan but my family played that with various silly hats and special chairs for the roles so it's waist-deep in nostalgia). So no wonder you hate it. Great Dalmuti (and later Dilbert Corporate Shuffle) was Richard Garfield’s attempt to rebalance President. hyphz fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Jan 12, 2021 |
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Jan 12, 2021 16:37
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President is great if you play it with people of equal experience/skill. Going from bum to president in one shot is great fun. Even if you can't, just finishing not-last feels like you're making progress. There's nothing better than making the perfect read on what someone has and playing your cards just so to block them out. Stomping newbies is not much fun, though. Not a good game to play with mixed skill levels. And these days with so many gamesbeing available meaning that people don't stick to one like they used to? It's kind of become just a bad game. But back in the olden times before we all had smartphones, playing President was how we entertained ourselves at lunch in middle school, we played it every day, and so we were all good at it. It's not the only game with that problem. Chess sucks in the same way - playing with newbies feels like a waste of everyone's time.
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Jan 12, 2021 17:31
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Jimbozig posted:It's not the only game with that problem. Chess sucks in the same way - playing with newbies feels like a waste of everyone's time. And dear lord, Go..
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Jan 12, 2021 17:42
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LatwPIAT posted:I've had lots of fun playing Hearts with friends and I've had some fun with Skat, but I have a particular loathing in my heart for President, which is just the worst. Here's roughly how it goes. I was taught this game as Scum, and I have some great memories of playing it constantly throughout high school. It was pretty much the perfect game to play with your teenage friends for 45 minutes over a lunch break but I wouldn't want to play nowdays.
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Jan 12, 2021 17:47
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SkyeAuroline posted:So I'm actually curious. How many of us are in ongoing (or imminent) games & what are they? I got kind of talked into GMing 13th Age because I think otherwise some friends would have been playing 5e D&D instead, and on top of re-acclimating to the rules of that they wanted to play in Tabletop Simulator, which I've had for a while but never messed with intensely. Playing with CGI terrain and minis is neat, but man is it making me miss the simplicity of copying and pasting whatever onto a Roll20 grid. We had our first session and we did a bit of background world generation with the beta Worlds without Numbers nation rolling tables to seed some plot hooks. Two of the players are experienced with D&D and other tabletop stuff I've pushed on them, and one's the S/O of one of the other players who's trying this whole thing out for the first time. She's playing a tiefling. I've also been playing in a group that's rotated between a few games and we're trying out Masks now after someone passed the PDFs of it around. I'm intrigued by the way the game has you or your co-players push your stats around on your sheet, but I could see that causing some friction if everyone's not on the same page about that.
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Jan 12, 2021 18:11
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Jimbozig posted:It's not the only game with that problem. Chess sucks in the same way - playing with newbies feels like a waste of everyone's time. I don't think this is really a flaw, I think it's just an inevitable characteristic of any sufficiently deep competitive game.
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Jan 12, 2021 19:26
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pwning n00blets is great and it's the true gamer soul
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Jan 12, 2021 19:39
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I dunno if chess is like this but I do know there is a culture of quality game teaching through instructive play in go and unless you are going out into the wild as a lil baby gamer and getting whomped on by people with galaxy brain ELO then it is likely you will run into someone hopefully that is like "wow. a human being who wants to play chess. i am also a human being, who wants to play chess, so i should socialize with them in a way that is not antagonistic and instead welcoming" it just happens to be to some people they will just jump onto the table and do an endzone dance as being welcoming
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Jan 12, 2021 19:48
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aldantefax posted:I dunno if chess is like this but I do know there is a culture of quality game teaching through instructive play in go and unless you are going out into the wild as a lil baby gamer and getting whomped on by people with galaxy brain ELO then it is likely you will run into someone hopefully that is like This is supposed to happen with Bridge as well, especially if you have an experienced teacher who uses duplicate hands. The problem with Go is that because of the ridiculous number of established patterns it can really easily happen in just a regular game. "Um, by the way, you had no chance of winning there and all your stones are dead" is practically unavoidable, even if it's hopefully not stated in that way.
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Jan 12, 2021 20:00
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I don't think that's a problem. It depends on the mentality of people to recognize when an unwinnable situation is encountered, and have the courage to play through or seek more to understand with some humility to resign. Unless you are playing truly competitively at a tournament or similar match then there should be minimal to no issue with communicating respectfully with your opponent to let them know about this situation. Whether or not the opponent's ego finds it denigrating or condescending or just lacking in understanding and being frustrated may also indicate that if they themselves cannot recognize they are dead to rights, then it is a growth opportunity for both sides to discuss game theory in greater detail.
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Jan 12, 2021 20:08
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When I teach my still very rudimentary understanding of Chess to someone who doesn't even have that, I make sure to explain to them the ramifications of bad moves, let them undo them and try something else, etc. It usually leads to me handholding them to a mate on me.
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Jan 12, 2021 20:13
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Yeah any competition where skill both matters, and takes practice to acquire, is open to an expert abusing a newbie. The problem isn't the game, it's the attitude of the expert, one that is not a new thing and is a universal that extends well beyond the realm of table games. I get what Hyphz is saying: Go has a particular structure in which a novice can be in a hopeless position well before the game is over, without realizing it. By contrast: getting owned by a player of much higher skill at pickup one-on-one basketball is obvious to the player who is currently behind 8-0 and can't get a clean shot in. However, that in no way excuses an expert player's disregard for a novice player if they decide to just play out a crushing win without even talking about it. There is no worthy achievement in such a win, it doesn't improve the expert's skill, doesn't impress anyone else, and doesn't serve the novice's learning or enjoyment, nor enhance the social experience.
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Jan 12, 2021 20:19
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Leperflesh posted:I get what Hyphz is saying: Go has a particular structure in which a novice can be in a hopeless position well before the game is over, without realizing it. I should clarify that I don't mean the entire game. Like, Go has a ton of cases where "if you have a stone in position X,Y and nothing is nearby, and you place a stone in position X+2, Y+1, then any attempt by your opponent to capture that stone in that situation is hopeless because all possible combinations of moves have been analyzed in the past and all have winning responses for you". So it's really easy to play into those as a beginner. But at the same time, the experienced player can't really say "you can't capture this stone" directly because if another one of the newbie's stones ends up in a particular place 4 or 5 spaces away then the situation changes. So the newbie spends a lot of time playing out doomed established sequences.
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Jan 12, 2021 22:41
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hyphz posted:I should clarify that I don't mean the entire game. Like, Go has a ton of cases where "if you have a stone in position X,Y and nothing is nearby, and you place a stone in position X+2, Y+1, then any attempt by your opponent to capture that stone in that situation is hopeless because all possible combinations of moves have been analyzed in the past and all have winning responses for you". So it's really easy to play into those as a beginner. But at the same time, the experienced player can't really say "you can't capture this stone" directly because if another one of the newbie's stones ends up in a particular place 4 or 5 spaces away then the situation changes. So the newbie spends a lot of time playing out doomed established sequences. so don't take Toughness
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Jan 12, 2021 22:47
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In the circumstances defined as an experienced player to a new player if it was not a competitive match I would say something along the lines of, "the move you played will put you into a spot where you would normally resign, but if you'd like we can play through it and talk about how that is". You could absolutely as an experienced player give newer players instruction through play and meta-commentary. Nothing restricts someone from instruction in a specific way because the scenario may change in 5 moves. Identifying critical turning points is a useful skill to have and informing someone that is open to feedback when they encounter those points is a fantastic learning experience. Just because a series of moves has been analyzed by other people does not mean the player making those moves has encyclopedic knowledge of that, or they might know it and but not understand the meaning of why such a series of moves leads to a loss. In competitive games like Go, it is not expected that a newbie is going to win against a senior player, but if there is a meaningful connection the senior player should take the opportunity to educate and help grow the junior player in what ways they can, rather than writing off the encounter as not worth their time, hopeless, or in poor sport.
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Jan 12, 2021 23:25
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All of which is unfortunately useless if you just want to sit down and have a nice game of whatever rather than an extended teaching moment. Don't get me wrong, I love learning new games and teaching people new games, but there's a reason why all my favourite games are either co-op or have a huge amount of indirect competition components.
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Jan 12, 2021 23:47
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I don't think the teaching moment needs to be extended or even explicitly called out, but "nice game" is a nebulous term. I would consider a game of go where I get romped on but learned a lot from someone a "nice game", but it has to do with a specific mindset one might have when approaching the game. If having a nice game = winning a game in which there must be a clearly defined winner and loser, the statistics indicate you will not have a nice game some of the time. Maybe I don't want to play go and instead I want to shove a puck through some grit while pounding eight beers at the local pub, or throwing axes trying to get a bullseye, or solving a murder mystery or building a castle out of Lego bricks. I'm just saying that in the context of Go or any other deterministic 1v1 game if as a new player you have an expectation to win or not lose against an opponent whose skill you may not comprehend and make a pattern that is unwinnable because of your lack of knowledge, that can still be an enjoyable experience as long as you let it be. tl;dr: if you are a sore winner or loser you will have a bad time in a competitive game, but record your reactions on Youtube so we can all have a good laugh like Phil Hellmuth
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Jan 13, 2021 00:05
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aldantefax posted:tl;dr: if you are a sore winner or loser you will have a bad time in a competitive game, but record your reactions on Youtube so we can all have a good laugh like Phil Hellmuth
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Jan 13, 2021 01:53
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Phil Hellmuth is a professional poker personality most typically known for his wild outbursts when he gets a bad beat. He also plays poker, but that is secondary to him being extremely petulant.
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Jan 13, 2021 02:17
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aldantefax posted:Phil Hellmuth is a professional poker personality most typically known for his wild outbursts when he gets a bad beat. He also plays poker, but that is secondary to him being extremely petulant. If you have 30 minutes, I strongly recommend watching this. No experience with poker is necessary. "WHY DO I CHOOSE THIS FOR A LIVING" - Jon Bois Pretty Good E8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDt90EyZnWA
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Jan 13, 2021 03:13
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The only thing I'm salty about watching that video is that it got copyright struck from Bois. Otherwise, that video is basically what I understand about poker as well.
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Jan 13, 2021 05:52
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What I mostly understand about poker is that Ash is bluffing literally all the time even when he isn't.
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Jan 13, 2021 13:35
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