|
Notorious b.s.d. posted:java is an open platform, .net is a closed one and java's standard implementation is guided by oracle, a notoriously capricious and secret megafirm
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 01:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 16:12 |
|
|
Mr Dog posted:.net is a worse java I have been meaning to take springMVC for a spin i've never really gotten my hands dirty with it and i have heard good things Malcolm XML posted:.net foundation is making this better Malcolm XML posted:and java's standard implementation is guided by oracle, a notoriously capricious and secret megafirm
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 01:54
|
|
|
Malcolm XML posted:and java's standard implementation is guided by oracle, a notoriously capricious and secret megafirm java's standard implementation is guided by a governance board with only one oracle member. oracle can't change the bylaws by fiat.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 01:59
|
|
|
Java is open-source and .NET isn't though Microsoft comes up with The One Persistence Framework and The One MVC Framework and hey guess what chances are it's going to stuck but everyone's stuck with it for the next two years until MS throws it out and starts from scratch again the Java ecosystem comes up with 100 persistence and mvc frameworks, most of which suck and die, but after survival of the fittest has done its thing we're left with a considerably healthier platform. Java tried this poo poo with those giant lovely "vendor neutral" trainwreck specifications for J2EE and those sucked too, nowadays they just assimilate the successful open-source solution. Microsoft still hasn't got the memo that this is a doomed strategy yet.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:00
|
|
|
type erasure is pretty terrible. hope you didn't want to use generics for exceptions. also, tough break about not having value types. re: chef/puppet supremacy. friend of mine was all bubbly about vagrant. is it an ok thing, or should I make fun of him?
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:00
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:re: chef/puppet supremacy. friend of mine was all bubbly about vagrant. is it an ok thing, or should I make fun of him? vagrant started terrible but it keeps getting less bad and you will still need a cfg mgmt system on your vagrant-spawned VMs
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:01
|
|
|
Mr Dog posted:Java is open-source and .NET isn't though what asp.net mvc has stuck around because it's good there are tons of replacements for ef and there are lots of web libs they are even updated out of band now did u not ok at the .net foundation? it's basically Msft doing a java standards approach also all of the .net sources are online
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:08
|
|
|
syntaxrigger posted:I have been meaning to take springMVC for a spin spring MVC is pretty okay. it's not flamboyantly terse like a p-lang framework but its decent and (here's THE BIG ONE) its integrated with spring. whatever you want to do theres a spring lib to plug in and do it for you
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:12
|
|
|
Malcolm XML posted:what lol .net dev has an mvc and an orm and thinks its an ecosystem
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:13
|
|
|
Notorious b.s.d. posted:java's standard implementation is guided by a governance board with only one oracle member. oracle can't change the bylaws by fiat. they own the reference impl though
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:18
|
|
|
Notorious b.s.d. posted:vagrant started terrible but it keeps getting less bad Vagrant with a config manager owns bones. Let's me collaborate with other people without having to run them through system set up, same goes for going back to old projects.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:26
|
|
|
Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:they own the reference impl though yeah but who cares. it's open source. if you don't like what oracle is doing, you're free to pitch your fork as a ref. impl. to the jcp. additionally, it's in oracle's best interests to keep things copacetic. they want ibm and red hat and academia inside the tent pissing out lastly, we're comparing to .net. where we have source code for some things some of the time, but all product direction is always determineed by microsoft alone
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:40
|
|
|
Maluco Marinero posted:Vagrant with a config manager owns bones. Let's me collaborate with other people without having to run them through system set up, same goes for going back to old projects. vagrant is incredible. gently caress up your dev enviroment erryday and it's just a 'vagrant up' to fix it. it's nice for testing different envs too
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:49
|
|
|
Notorious b.s.d. posted:yeah but who cares. it's open source. if you don't like what oracle is doing, you're free to pitch your fork as a ref. impl. to the jcp. does this happen? as a developer, which of these freedom-embracing million points of light do I target? pretty sure the answers are "no", and "Oracle's because that's what everyone has and always will, numbnuts". possible exception is Android, whose Java subset is commercially interesting, but which isn't governed by the enlightened jcp.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 02:52
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:type erasure is pretty terrible. hope you didn't want to use generics for exceptions. also, tough break about not having value types. Use Vagrant and Ansible for super easy development environments imo.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 03:03
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:does this happen? as a developer, which of these freedom-embracing million points of light do I target? of course it doesn't happen. oracle puts millions of dollars into openjdk. the project is suiting everyone's needs. why would anyone want to fork it or sow dissension in the openjdk project? if oracle became hostile towards the jcp or openjdk, then the jcp could become interested in a new "sponsor" for openjdk
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 03:06
|
|
|
Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:spring MVC is pretty okay. it's not flamboyantly terse like a p-lang framework but its decent and (here's THE BIG ONE) its integrated with spring. whatever you want to do theres a spring lib to plug in and do it for you springMVC is good and continually gets better and better
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 03:20
|
|
|
Notorious b.s.d. posted:c# really is nicer. but you won't care f# is nicer still (that's because it's ocaml but shh we don't talk about that)
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 03:20
|
|
|
Notorious b.s.d. posted:if oracle became hostile towards the jcp or openjdk, then the jcp could become interested in a new "sponsor" for openjdk sure, but that means openjdk == Java, when the point of a standards body is to permit multiple implementations as long as the implementation was GPL, as I understand it, because of the TCK license on the core. (I can't see how the JCP determines what's in the core language TCK, but it seems like they must be able to if they have stewardship over Java(tm).) that's what got Apache out of the process, right? they don't seem happy.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 03:26
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:sure, but that means openjdk == Java, when the point of a standards body is to permit multiple implementations sun/oracle refused to let apache use the tck, which meant their alternative java could never be "java." at the same time, the creation of openjdk removed a lot of the motive for harmony to exist that does raise an important point: oracle owns the trademark, not the jcp. if things really did go down in flames, openjdk and the jcp would continue on their merry way but it wouldn't be Java TM anymore
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 03:34
|
|
|
Notorious b.s.d. posted:sun/oracle refused to let apache use the tck, which meant their alternative java could never be "java." at the same time, the creation of openjdk removed a lot of the motive for harmony to exist having multiple implementations of something like Java is pretty valuable, which is probably why Oracle has J2ME and the server/client VM split. heaven knows there's plenty of room in the field of allocator/collector behavior for things to distinguish themselves. (is Azul's stuff Java(tm)?) if nobody else can build a conforming implementation and say they're an implementation of Java on the strength of the specification, then why does the JSR process spend do much effort focused on interoperability? who's that aimed at? are people making "I Can't Believe It's Not Java" impls and dancing around the trademark license? maybe I just don't understand something key: what does the JCP control, if not the definition of what is "Java"? if you don't care if your feature is inside that label, why take it to JCP at all? you can already fork OpenJDK and call it NotoriousLang. and if you *do* want it to have that label, it seems like the JCP can't give you that itself.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 03:52
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:having multiple implementations of something like Java is pretty valuable, which is probably why Oracle has J2ME and the server/client VM split. heaven knows there's plenty of room in the field of allocator/collector behavior for things to distinguish themselves. (is Azul's stuff Java(tm)?) "I Can't Believe It's Not Java" was an option for Apache, but it wasn't consistent with their project goals. Subjunctive posted:maybe I just don't understand something key: what does the JCP control, if not the definition of what is "Java"? if you don't care if your feature is inside that label, why take it to JCP at all? you can already fork OpenJDK and call it NotoriousLang. and if you *do* want it to have that label, it seems like the JCP can't give you that itself. why bother? because when you do a jsr, oracle, ibm, red hat et al are all obligated to pick up your feature. support turns up in eclipse, netbeans, intellij. it's an ecosystem.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:13
|
|
|
Google forked Java and called it Dalvik, and look where that got them.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:14
|
|
|
pseudorandom name posted:Google forked Java and called it Dalvik, and look where that got them. google and microsoft both forked java into proprietary platforms after protracted negotiations w/ sun. both tried to gently caress over sun. microsoft got their just deserts and forked over billions for their malfeasance. we'll see what happens to goog.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:15
|
|
|
IOW you can't fork Java
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:22
|
|
|
pseudorandom name posted:IOW you can't fork Java yeah you should use a spoon or something
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:24
|
|
|
pseudorandom name posted:IOW you can't fork Java
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:25
|
|
|
Google didn't call it Java, they called it Dalvik.
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:26
|
|
|
sun got mad at Microsoft cause Microsoft made a way better vm. oracle got mad at goog cause they litterrally stole everything
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:37
|
|
|
pseudorandom name posted:Google didn't call it Java, they called it Dalvik. no, they used to advertise it as java (not so much anymore...)
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:39
|
|
|
so the deal with harmony is that they wanted to make an open source java with the apache license that was java certified. and sun/oracle would never let this happen because then someone could make money from the trademark without sun/oracle getting a cut. is that about right?pseudorandom name posted:Google didn't call it Java, they called it Dalvik. which is why all the stdlib classes are in dalvik.*
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:46
|
|
|
Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:which is why all the stdlib classes are in dalvik.* we'll, they didn't change the class library or the language, just the VM and they renamed the part they did change
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 04:55
|
|
|
Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:so the deal with harmony is that they wanted to make an open source java with the apache license that was java certified. and sun/oracle would never let this happen because then someone could make money from the trademark without sun/oracle getting a cut. is that about right? you can already do that, if your VM is derived from OpenJDK. does the OpenJDK/TCK stuff apply the same way to J2ME? edit: it would be utterly shocking to me if TCK license revenues were meaningful to Oracle. I did once interview the guy who set up the browser-toolbar bundling deal for the client VM, though, and he was *super* proud of it, so maybe they just really have to find every cent. Subjunctive fucked around with this message at 05:07 on Jun 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 05:04
|
|
|
Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:so the deal with harmony is that they wanted to make an open source java with the apache license that was java certified. and sun/oracle would never let this happen because then someone could make money from the trademark without sun/oracle getting a cut. is that about right? this was all Sun, in its waning days, board breathing down their backs, whispers of a hostile takeover. no oracle. at the time, java was open source but not free software. it was available, but only under a set of insanely restrictive licenses. sun was rear end-clenchingly terrified of an apache-licensed java because, in Sun's view, ibm/oracle wouldn't need to stay inside the tent. at the same time they were feuding with apache, sun was working on every legal wrinkle in going free-as-in-freedom. and thus was born openjdk. with a gpl'ed java, there was peace in the jcp
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 05:15
|
|
|
Subjunctive posted:you can already do that, if your VM is derived from OpenJDK. no combination of events will get you an apache-licensed open source Java TM Subjunctive posted:does the OpenJDK/TCK stuff apply the same way to J2ME? i have nfc not my end of the industry Subjunctive posted:edit: it would be utterly shocking to me if TCK license revenues were meaningful to Oracle. I did once interview the guy who set up the browser-toolbar bundling deal for the client VM, though, and he was *super* proud of it, so maybe they just really have to find every cent. Notorious b.s.d. fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jun 8, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 05:20
|
|
|
another thing to remember about sun vs. oracle: back when sun was independent, and middleware was something people paid money for, they were the #3 java vendor. not a typo. just barely #3, at that. ibm and bea/oracle were the ones making real money on java it is easier for a post-buyout oracle to chillax because their market position is much more secure than Sun's ever was
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 05:27
|
|
|
Kevin Mitnick P.E. posted:lol .net dev has an mvc and an orm and thinks its an ecosystem yeah ok just browse nugget or something I'm sure all those .net sites are just terrible,e for not having some random Java package, u better tell them! fwiw I don't really code web crap. webapi owns but most of what I do is figuring out how to store and analyze stuff on azure
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 12:20
|
|
|
Malcolm XML posted:fwiw I don't really code web crap. webapi owns but most of what I do is figuring out how to store and analyze stuff on azure wow, and all this time people thought doing web crap was bad
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 12:29
|
|
|
Stringent posted:wow, and all this time people thought doing web crap was bad it is take a request in, send a response out, its not that hard or interesting
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 12:40
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 16:12 |
|
|
the 'well, java has *more* mvc frameworks and orms than the closest competitor  ' may be the stupidest post ever madebragging about whos hooker has more stds
|
|
#
?
Jun 8, 2014 15:02
|
|
