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MadScientistWorking posted:I thought he ended up being surrendered to the Cardassians meaning he probably was dead long before the Maquis were wiped out. Part of the deal was that the Cardassians could not kill him. The deal said nothing about the Dominion.
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May 17, 2013 20:52
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jivjov posted:Man, I've watched quite a bit of Trek, but I must've missed whatever this was from. In what circumstance does Riker have fake sideburns? 
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May 17, 2013 20:53
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LLJKSiLk posted:I didn't like plot holes such as Khan can apparently "transwarp beam" himself from Earth to Kronos with a portable transporter. Then why in the hell does Starfleet not just transwarp beam some commandos after him and kill him instead of some stupid overly elaborate scheme which hopes to incite a war? Even if the admiral doesn't want to for reasons - why doesn't Kirk/Spock/etc. bring it up instead of giving us a shuttle chase on Kronos? The whole plot was designed to start a war in the first place. Transwarping a bunch of commandos (who most likely would have been killed by Khan anyway) in to assassinate Khan would not have delivered the war that Admiral Murphy was trying to start.
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May 17, 2013 21:07
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Does transwarp beaming allow you to beam someone back from another planet or just put them there?
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May 17, 2013 21:13
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threeagainstfour posted:The whole plot was designed to start a war in the first place. Transwarping a bunch of commandos (who most likely would have been killed by Khan anyway) in to assassinate Khan would not have delivered the war that Admiral Murphy was trying to start. Sure, but you'd think that Kirk or someone else might have stopped for a moment and suggested it. Hell, just warp in all the torpedos and blow him up that way.
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May 17, 2013 21:14
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Gatts posted:When it's evil Riker. Created from a transporter accident when one Riker was materialized on board the ship but the other remained marooned on a world with a unique atmosphere when the beam signal bounced off and went back to the planet. Come to think of it, I'm kind of surprised Mirror Kira didn't have a goatee.
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May 17, 2013 21:15
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Thom12255 posted:Does transwarp beaming allow you to beam someone back from another planet or just put them there? I suppose that would depend on if the place you sent them to has a Transwarp transporter or not.
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May 17, 2013 21:16
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Well keep in mind the whole Transwarp thing is future-tech that alternate universe Spock brought with him. They shouldn't have had it at this point in time. So any way they use it is really up to the writer
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May 17, 2013 21:19
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jivjov posted:I suppose that would depend on if the place you sent them to has a Transwarp transporter or not. Well I guess we could use that as an excuse as to why Starfleet didn't want to send to beam a team in after Khan and instead had to go with a different plan
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May 17, 2013 21:21
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MrTpug posted:Well keep in mind the whole Transwarp thing is future-tech that alternate universe Spock brought with him. They shouldn't have had it at this point in time. So any way they use it is really up to the writer I thought Spock said it was something that Scotty should have already discovered and that is why he does not feel guilty about giving it to them?
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May 17, 2013 21:22
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Just came back from seeing it. Just about every good and bad thing I have to say about this film could be cut and pasted from my feelings about Trek 2009. It was really dumb, with a needlessly convoluted story full of plot holes and lazy references to previous movies, but at the same time it was reasonably well directed and fast-paced. Like the 2009 film, Kirk came across as way too smug and entitled, but the rest of the cast did a good job (though I wish we had seen more of some of them, like Bones). I had a smile on my face for most of it, but the movie starts to collapse the more you think about it. I guess if Trek films are just going to be dumb action movies from now on (a trend that started long before JJ took over), I guess I should be happy they are slick, well-made dumb action movies (and not leaden turds like Nemesis). I still hold out hope that one day someone will try something a little more interesting and ambitious. One thing I liked: Khan still being alive at the end. Not that I necessarily want him to return, but it is a welcome change from most action movies where the villain is always killed by the hero. One thing I would have liked more of: Khan working with the crew against the real villain. Around the point when he became a mustache-twirling supervillain again, trying to ram his ship into Starfleet headquarters, the movie took a big dip in quality. Another plot hole?: Why did they specifically have to get Khan's blood to save Kirk, when all those other genetic supermen were on board, presumably with the same blood? They had no trouble defrosting one of them to put Kirk in his pod (despite saying earlier in the film that they could not defrost them).
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May 17, 2013 21:23
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bobkatt013 posted:I thought Spock said it was something that Scotty should have already discovered and that is why he does not feel guilty about giving it to them? It was something he was going to develop in the future. I imagine in the Prime Timeline, Scotty figures it out later on in life rather than early on in his career. (A lot like the Transparent Aluminum thing from Voyage Home)
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May 17, 2013 21:27
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DentArthurDent posted:
McCoy only knew for sure that Khan's blood had those properties and needed the blood as soon as possible to save Kirk so saving Khan was the best and least risky option. The defrosting part I have no idea, it seems like a big hole and I don't even see the need for it to be, it's not like it was ever a plot point that they couldn't be defrosted, they just brought it up for no reason.
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May 17, 2013 21:29
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jivjov posted:It was something he was going to develop in the future. I imagine in the Prime Timeline, Scotty figures it out later on in life rather than early on in his career. (A lot like the Transparent Aluminum thing from Voyage Home) Not only this, but he likely discovered the Transwarp Beaming technology post-DS9/Voyager since he spent the last years of his life in the TNG era rather than dying with Kirk and the others in their own era. This would make that specific technology about 130 years more advanced than anything found in the JJTrek era. DentArthurDent posted:One thing I would have liked more of: Khan working with the crew against the real villain. The problem is that Khan is just as much of a real villain as Marcus. This movie features two primary villains that happen to be working against each other, but with Khan it makes you initially feel sympathetic towards him (until you find out he is basically Space Hitler). The alliance between Khan and Kirk lasted just about as long as it was ever going to last. DFu4ever fucked around with this message at 21:49 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 21:42
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^^ I wonder if Kirk knew instinctively that he could not trust him due to the mind meld from the first movie. DFu4ever posted:Not only this, but he likely discovered the Transwarp Beaming technology post-DS9/Voyager since he last years of his life in the TNG era rather than dying with Kirk and the others in their own era. This would make that specific technology about 130 years more advanced than anything found in the JJTrek era. Nice to know that now Spock is just gently caress the past, he can do what he wants. He learned so much from Kirk. bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at 21:53 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 21:44
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Just saw, overall it was alright. Some thoughts: -Great opening, I liked the volcano planet and future London. -Was delighted to hear mention of Section 31! -Klingon cameo was good, I liked the bat'leth and disruptor use. Some negatives: -With the whole universe to explore, we have two movies with the climax of the bad guy attacking San Francisco. -The final battle takes place directly above Earth and goes on for some time. Yet no other Federation ships intervene, or are even seen. After Nero's near successful attack a few years before, shouldn't at least one ship be patrolling? -Kirk's death was cheap. So the Federation can now harvest blood from Kahn on a regular basis, and always be able to bring the recently deceased back to life? (I don't think it was just a radiation cure, as the tribble wasn't said to have died that way.) -That guard in the hangar was pointless and cartoonish. -Enough with the red shirt winks already. -Leonard Nimoy cameo just to say Kahn is bad was underwhelming. Movie needed recap of Eugenic Wars.
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May 17, 2013 21:48
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bobkatt013 posted:Nice to know that now Spock is just gently caress the past, he can do what he wants. He learned so much from Kirk. Well, the same plot point came up in Voyage Home. Transparent Aluminum is a "modern" 23rd century thing that Scotty just dumps into the 1980s.
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May 17, 2013 21:53
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jivjov posted:Well, the same plot point came up in Voyage Home. Transparent Aluminum is a "modern" 23rd century thing that Scotty just dumps into the 1980s. Ya but that was Scotty. In an episode Spock was willing to force a guy to stay in the future since he did nothing important
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May 17, 2013 21:55
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Mojo Threepwood posted:Just saw, overall it was alright. Some thoughts: I kind of wish this hadn't been in the movie at all. Not only did it serve no real purpose, but after the first movie we've firmly established that this is an alternate timeline. We don't need to bring Spock Prime back to emphasize that. Cut the cord and let NuSpock and the rest of the crew find their own way.
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May 17, 2013 21:57
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This felt like the third or fourth sheet of carbon paper. I didn't mind the Trek nerd callbacks in the first movie because they served a pretty decent thematic purpose (things are the same, but different) and weren't just the kind of smug ironic references that've tried to pass for humor over the last fifteen years. Here Abrams had the chance to take things in a whole new direction but decided just to do a few inversions on an old formula (not only Wrath, but Trek 09) and call it original. It looked good, though. I'll give it that. Edit: Watch this and then watch Wrath or Undiscovered Country again. It's amazing how caffeinated and sanitized the new series is. Asbury fucked around with this message at 22:14 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 22:02
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WarLocke posted:I kind of wish this hadn't been in the movie at all. Not only did it serve no real purpose, but after the first movie we've firmly established that this is an alternate timeline. We don't need to bring Spock Prime back to emphasize that. Cut the cord and let NuSpock and the rest of the crew find their own way. At first I kind of thought this, but then I realized that not asking Spock Prime about a guy that likely showed up in his era would be a near plot hole in itself. The guy is a huge resource, and JJ Spock avoiding him as a resource in situations where his knowledge might have a chance of saving lives would be bad writing. Spock Prime is a part of the JJTrek timeline at this point, ignoring that fact would be lazy writing. 3Romeo posted:Edit: Watch this and then watch Wrath or Undiscovered Country again. It's amazing how caffeinated and sanitized the new series is. How exactly is it sanitized? Both JJTrek movies have been pretty unique considering they re-use characters and situations. A straight remake could be considered 'sanitized', I guess, but these movies are using existing tools in far different ways than their predecessors. DFu4ever fucked around with this message at 22:29 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 22:24
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DFu4ever posted:At first I kind of thought this, but then I realized that not asking Spock Prime about a guy that likely showed up in his era would be a near plot hole in itself. The guy is a huge resource, and JJ Spock avoiding him as a resource in situations where his knowledge might have a chance of saving lives would be bad writing. Spock Prime is a part of the JJTrek timeline at this point, ignoring that fact would be lazy writing. I liked it as They had no idea who he was. They knew that they could not trust Starfleet, so who else could they turn to? bobkatt013 fucked around with this message at 22:39 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 22:26
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Is Leonard Nimoy contractually obligated to appear in all the new Trek movies or something? Also, where did the crew on Robocop's ship go? After Kirk & co. bust in and stun everyone, they all just sorta... evaporated into thin air.
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May 17, 2013 22:38
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FuSchnick posted:Is Leonard Nimoy contractually obligated to appear in all the new Trek movies or something? I assume Khan headcrushed them if they weren't dead already
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May 17, 2013 22:40
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FuSchnick posted:Is Leonard Nimoy contractually obligated to appear in all the new Trek movies or something? That was one of the only things that really bugged me about the movie. Seemed so forced. Just because it happened in ST'09 didn't mean it had to happen in this one too. It was kind of a cool callback then but it doesn't have the same effect if you do it twice.
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May 17, 2013 22:42
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Rageaholic Monkey posted:That was one of the only things that really bugged me about the movie. Seemed so forced. Just because it happened in ST'09 didn't mean it had to happen in this one too. It was kind of a cool callback then but it doesn't have the same effect if you do it twice. Counterpoint: His reaction to QuintoSpock namedropping Khan was really good.
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May 17, 2013 22:47
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Just got back from seeing this, and overall I felt it was an enjoyable movie, however I really kind of hate that they are retreading old ground instead of forging something new. The constant references, rehashing major plot points, it's all just lazy as poo poo. I liked that Cumberbatch wasn't going to be Khan even if they were still using Eugenics War as a backdrop for the plot, but then he was Khan of course because apparently JJ Abrams can't let an opportunity to recycle other people's ideas go past. Also, that Nimoy cameo was dumb as poo poo, added nothing to the film, and served only to shoehorn Old Spock into another New Trek movie.
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May 17, 2013 22:58
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ChickenMedium posted:Just got back from seeing this, and overall I felt it was an enjoyable movie, however I really kind of hate If they Did not have that scene then Spock would know not to trust Khan and have time to figure out what to do with the cyrotubes
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May 17, 2013 23:02
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DFu4ever posted:
I don't know if I can really explain what I mean, but I guess it's worth giving it a shot. Wrath, from which this movie primarily pulls its villain and themes, has a real Cold War submarine-in-space feel. Z Axises. Long panoramic shots of the Enterprise which aren't just there for looks--they exist to elicit in the audience the sense of largeness and danger of space. No smoking signs and fire extinguishers on the walls of the bridge. The old ship, the old movie, is rife with stuff like that. I mean, most of that you can attribute to the decade in which it was made--Wrath came out in 1982, after all. poo poo was analog back then. But then it ties that aesthetic into the theme. The Enterprise is old. Kirk's old. Bones is old as gently caress. They want to be young again. But they can't be. They're artifacts, they're past their prime, and all they can really do is be a part of the bureaucracy--Kirk's heading an inspection, and all he wants to do is be back in command. Tie in that in with some pretty choice quotes from some old pieces of literature to help round out the protagonists' theme (aging and living, from a Tale of Two Cities) and the antagonist's theme (revenge, Moby-Dick), and you get a movie that's more than just action. It works in a bunch of different ways. Into Darkness is, thematically, an incoherent mess. Characters exist for plot purposes and eye candy and absolutely nothing else. Whole scenes get set up for internet-goon/super-nerd/Big Bang Theory autists who think references are the same as humor. Tie that into the Apple aesthetic of the last two movies, and you get two hours that work perfectly to exemplify the lifestyle post-Internet: themes get etched away and what takes their place is a goddamned home button, something you can mash to close the window on what just happened. If you've seen STID you know the scene I'm talking about. That's what I mean by sanitized. That's probably laying it on a bit thick, and I'm sure there's some kind of unfounded diagnosis here in me taking three paragraphs to says "kids these days," but man, either I'm getting old, or these latest two Trek movies are working on some kind of level I can't quite understand. They're nailing the image of the era in which they were made, just like the old movies, but something's missing. Edit: Oddly enough, though, I think this movie is a pretty goddamn good reason for me to think that Abrams will do a great job with the Star Wars sequels--a series which dealt (at least in the OT) more with feeling your way through problems than thinking your way through. The characterization in STID is fine (at least for Kirk and Spock), the quips are fine and they made me laugh, and there's some pretty good action. I can't take that away from it. I'm sure whatever he does will be a drat sight better than the prequel trilogy. Asbury fucked around with this message at 23:27 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 23:09
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So another question: Why do we see Khan re-entering cryogenic stasis? Here is a guy who has just murdered thousands, perhaps tens of thousands, of people. That's not even keeping in mind his various crimes as a tyrant around the time of the Eugenics Wars. Even in the idealized Starfleet, they had prison, and someone who had committed crimes on this scale would have been tried and sentenced to prison of some kind. The year gap between the events of the film and Kirk's speech/Khan going back into stasis is marginally enough time for a proper trial. So is his punishment just getting frozen again? If that's punishment, why are all the other people on the Botany Bay kept frozen (and thus "punished") even though they've done nothing wrong in the 'modern' era? Also: quote:If they Did not have that scene then Spock would know not to trust Khan and have time to figure out what to do with the cyrotubes The Eugenics Wars happened in this universe too. Did Spock not have access to Wikipedia?
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May 17, 2013 23:14
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monster on a stick posted:So another question: It is too drat dangerous to keep him alive, and it would be immoral and illegal to execute him. Keeping him frozen until some time when the Federation is better prepared to reform him or otherwise handle him would seem the only option to them. quote:The Eugenics Wars happened in this universe too. Did Spock not have access to Wikipedia? That wouldn't really be insight into how he thought, not the way that Kirk and Spock gained in Wrath. Old Spock knew that Khan was only defeated by his collapse into single-minded purpose, you can't really ascertain that from a history book that ends with "and then one day Khan and his men were never seen again."
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May 17, 2013 23:23
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Thom12255 posted:McCoy only knew for sure that Khan's blood had those properties and needed the blood as soon as possible to save Kirk so saving Khan was the best and least risky option. The defrosting part I have no idea, it seems like a big hole and I don't even see the need for it to be, it's not like it was ever a plot point that they couldn't be defrosted, they just brought it up for no reason. To say nothing of the fact that earlier on in the movie, Bones specifically says that they dare not try to defrost any of them because they don't know the correct procedures. Yet evidently, without talking to Khan, it's safe at the end of the movie for him to thaw one of them just so long as he keeps him in a medically-induced coma. The more I reflect on this movie, the more I'm bothered by what JJ could do to Star Wars, but that's only muted/alleviated by the fact that there's absolutely no way he can gently caress it up more than Lucas himself did in the prequels and his continued "gently caress all you fanboys I wanted to be like Spielberg but you made me be THIS" spite-changes to the original films. I also think Disney will have Abrams assassinated by the Orlando PD if he tarnishes their new 'toy' in any way.
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May 17, 2013 23:36
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bobkatt013 posted:If they Did not have that scene then Spock would know not to trust Khan and have time to figure out what to do with the cyrotubes No that's nonsense, Spock spends the entire film telling people not to trust that guy.
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May 17, 2013 23:39
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MrBims posted:It is too drat dangerous to keep him alive, and it would be immoral and illegal to execute him. Keeping him frozen until some time when the Federation is better prepared to reform him or otherwise handle him would seem the only option to them. Well, in that case why doesn't the Federation put more of their criminals on ice, at least the dangerous ones? Maybe they do and we don't see it, but I'm guessing that the only reason Khan went back into stasis was so we'd get a cool shot of him smiling as he joined his 72 buds. quote:That wouldn't really be insight into how he thought, not the way that Kirk and Spock gained in Wrath. Old Spock knew that Khan was only defeated by his collapse into single-minded purpose, you can't really ascertain that from a history book that ends with "and then one day Khan and his men were never seen again." The "brought down by single-minded purpose" would have helped if that is what brought Khan down. They get him in ST2 because he lacks "three dimensional thinking" for the space battle; this movie just had an action set piece. All the Spock-Spock talk gives us is Old Spock reacting to Khan's name with 
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May 17, 2013 23:52
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monster on a stick posted:The "brought down by single-minded purpose" would have helped if that is what brought Khan down. They get him in ST2 because he lacks "three dimensional thinking" for the space battle; this movie just had an action set piece. All the Spock-Spock talk gives us is Old Spock reacting to Khan's name with That scene is the pinnacle of a whole film of actors doing magnificent things with scenes that simply shouldn't exist. Nimoy's reaction is fantastic. Doesn't change how stupid it is that rather than work things out for themselves they stop and skype old-Spock to ask for the answer. Old-Spock having all the future knowledge is easily escapable - have a line at the start of the film about how he's vowed never to speak of the future, have the Enterprise lose communications (also explaining why they aren't screaming for help on all frequencies over Earth), they chose to have the stupid cameo that detracts entirely from the tension of the new cast trying to work things out for themselves. Alchenar fucked around with this message at 00:06 on May 18, 2013 |
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May 18, 2013 00:01
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ChickenMedium posted:Just got back from seeing this, and overall I felt it was an enjoyable movie, however I really kind of hate Why the gently caress would anyone complain about more Spock?
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May 18, 2013 00:08
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Loved the movie. The ending definitely felt a little rushed but, overall it was worth it. I don't think Kirk's death was "cheapened" in any way. I actually think, in retrospect, the Khan blood thing makes sense. In TWoK, Khan was the only member of his group that didn't seem at least somewhat gaunt and ragged. Khan was still extremely fit and extraordinarily healthy. I loved that Kirk was stuck in the middle between two villains with decent motivations, to be honest. Marcus's, "Oh, poo poo you talked to him," was refreshingly honest and abrupt. I also really loved the meta reference to Khan never meeting Chekov. It's been long-assumed among fans that Chekov had simply been in a different department at the time of Space Seed. Well, here we see it.
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May 18, 2013 00:21
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Alchenar posted:That scene is the pinnacle of a whole film of actors doing magnificent things with scenes that simply shouldn't exist. Nimoy's reaction is fantastic. Doesn't change how stupid it is that rather than work things out for themselves they stop and skype old-Spock to ask for the answer. Old-Spock having all the future knowledge is easily escapable - have a line at the start of the film about how he's vowed never to speak of the future, have the Enterprise lose communications (also explaining why they aren't screaming for help on all frequencies over Earth), they chose to have the stupid cameo that detracts entirely from the tension of the new cast trying to work things out for themselves. Are we still spoilering stuff? I thought cameo by old Spock was neat in that it tied in with the prime directive theme of the movie. Spock Prime states that he made a vow never to tell alternate universe Spock anything that would affect his destiny, but just like Kirk he says gently caress it and tells him what he needs to know to make the right move and not trust Khan.
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May 18, 2013 00:59
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I have to say, Nording's review over at AICN sums up my feelings towards the film in a much more eloquent way than I could ever do it.
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May 18, 2013 01:07
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Reading the comments on that review, I guess I don't "GET" Trek, and by god am I glad. Movie starts in five minutes and I know I'll enjoy it after reading spoilers in this thread.
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May 18, 2013 01:12
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