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Anshu posted:Soma/Marie had some good parts in Season 2. Mostly all of the parts involving her relationship with Sergei, but they were there. Yeah, when I say I like her it's these parts I'm thinking about. Although I generally also like her dynamic with Celestial Being after his death. Honestly, the only actual weakness was the Marie part.
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Apr 12, 2022 23:13
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NikkolasKing posted:My memory of Setsuna is he's more dead inside than trying to be tough. Even more than Heero he's like "yeah, gonna kill people, probably die myself eventually." If I'm remembering correctly, shortly before the clip starts he also identified himself as being a Kurd from the region Azadistan conquered during his childhood, so at least part of Marina's reaction is fear that he might want to assassinate her in retribution.
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Apr 12, 2022 23:24
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For some reason even though 00 is almost as ridiculous as Wing it never really felt as fun as it should have been. Maybe it's season 2 and the movie ruining it for me in retrospect, I dunno.
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Apr 13, 2022 03:03
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It's not ridiculous. Except how bad the dubbing is. The scene is meant to parallel sorans murder of his mother. He sees marina as a mother figure while she understands in that moment the actual human cost of the geopolitics she's engaged in rather than the ivory tower view she usually has. Her country itself is meant to parallel Setsuna's development with it being left motherless and under the sway of a murderous immoral régime after the fédération moves in.
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Apr 13, 2022 03:18
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tired gay and dead posted:For some reason even though 00 is almost as ridiculous as Wing it never really felt as fun as it should have been. Maybe it's season 2 and the movie ruining it for me in retrospect, I dunno. This reminds me of a person who didn't like Ali-al Saachez, particularly in the scene with the woman. I forget who she was but he like picked her up in a car or truck or something and went on an anime villain rant about how evil he is and poo poo. Given 00's more realistic tone, this guy I mention felt this kind of dialogue didn't fit at all. Real people don't see themselves as the Devil, or if they do, it's because they think the Devil was pretty swell. Nobody is like "I'm a lovely, bad person and I hate everything I stand for." At least, not people who are committed to that path, they might say these things when they want to change but I hope you get my point.
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Apr 13, 2022 03:34
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Ali-Al Saachez is a loving cartoon of a character but that gives him more personality than a lot of people in 00.
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Apr 13, 2022 03:53
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Saachez is a cackling psychopath but he's incredibly entertaining and has fantastic voice acting both dubbed and subbed as well as cool suits and good fights. He's a delight.
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Apr 13, 2022 03:57
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Gaius Marius posted:No, why do they need to waste time explaining how information gets transmitted. We're doing it right now, just extrapolate. The constant need to explain minutia is the second greatest crime of modern fiction I hate it when I agree with you. Gaius Marius posted:It's not ridiculous. Except how bad the dubbing is. The scene is meant to parallel sorans murder of his mother. He sees marina as a mother figure while she understands in that moment the actual human cost of the geopolitics she's engaged in rather than the ivory tower view she usually has. Ok, I think this is reading a bit too much into it. There's no subtext needed to the scene. Soran Ibrahim was radicalized into fighting a 'holy war' against Marina's country as a child. Now he's standing in front of the head of state from that country, who is telling him how sorry she is he went through that--she being someone who has never discharged a weapon in anger or, by all estimations, watched mobile suits turn other kids into chunky salsa. He can have a little righteous indignation, as a treat. Without making it a mother complex thing. edit: More than anything, it parallels the scene when Setsuna tells Lockon that he was a member of the terrorist group that killed Lockon's family. Both serve to highlight cycles of violence, and both end with that cycle being broken or otherwise forestalled. Warmachine fucked around with this message at 04:04 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 04:00
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Saachez is the main reason that watching 00 after IBO is weird. Because he's exactly the same character as Galan Mossa except given way more screentime, while not really being any more interesting with it. After a point he's only really interesting because he pilots an interesting Gundam, rather than anything about his character. And hell, he stole that Gundam, he's not even the pioneer of its cool ideas.
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Apr 13, 2022 04:08
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Galan Mossa is presented as a character with some mitigating shades of gray - he's a mercenary dickhead who has no qualms luring a bunch of child soldiers to their deaths, but they spend time on how Julieta views him as another father figure and how he's a loyal friend to Rustal. Even as he gets crushed to death by Akihiro he goes out giving Akihiro some life advice. 00 goes 100% all in on Ali being a completely unrepentant cackling monster who revels in being that, and has him chew the scenery to bits while doing so.
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Apr 13, 2022 04:16
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If I'm being honest the main thing I remember from 00 is that guy who says "did you think I'd just let you mess with my QUANTUM BRAINWAVES!?!" Also there was a bunch of clones that killed each other and wanted to rule the world? It's been a while I guess.
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Apr 13, 2022 04:55
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Looking at the big picture in 00 i'm still kinda fascinated with just how much of a lovely coward Schenberg was. Yeah I'll set up a terrorist organization staffed entirely with various hosed-up weirdos , not all of whom are doing this voluntarily, then cryosleep myself so I won't have to deal with it. Don't worry though, I've left an entirely amoral AI to run things in my place. Also your robots have a super-mode that only activates if someone kills me so you can ruin their plans, otherwise you shitters are all completely expendable. Ok later.
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Apr 13, 2022 10:41
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Aeolia wasn't responsible for the staffing of modern Celestial Being. He put himself into cryosleep a couple hundred years before the present day after developing the GN Drives and laying the groundwork for the organization that would eventually become modern CB. CB in the modern day had been inherited and run by hosed up weirdos like Alejandro Corner and Wang Liu Mei and partially co-opted by the Innovades(until they took full power at the end of S1), so naturally they recruited hosed up expendable weirdos to do the grunt work. The Trans Am system trap was basically a "whew if someone has located and broken into Veda's inner sanctum and loving killed me that means that the plan has gone completely off the rails and is hopelessly hosed so this is the last possible shot I have at spite". Trans Am was never supposed to be necessary or even useful because the Gundams were ten billion light years beyond what everyone outside of CB was supposed to have and Trans Am itself has the horrible drawback of basically crippling the suit once used. You don't need an ultra giga super mode when you're basically an invincible golden god to all of your opponents; Corner handing out Tau drives and the Innovades going rogue were not part of the script.
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Apr 13, 2022 10:53
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Yinlock posted:Looking at the big picture in 00 i'm still kinda fascinated with just how much of a lovely coward Schenberg was. Yeah I'll set up a terrorist organization staffed entirely with various hosed-up weirdos , not all of whom are doing this voluntarily, then cryosleep myself so I won't have to deal with it. Don't worry though, I've left an entirely amoral AI to run things in my place. He couldn't deal with it unless he was cryosleeped, because he's still human at the end of the day and lived 200 years before the show takes place. Lived, and was frozen in what appeared to be his 50s. So unless he found the solution to aging, took it off screen and told literally nobody about it, including the audience, then he had to cryosleep if he wanted to see the fruits of his labors at all. How do you think he was going to deal with anything in the current day, outside cryosleep?
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Apr 13, 2022 11:10
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I do really like that something 00 does is take basically the dumbest possible ideas completely seriously. There's a lot of parts where you can ask 'wait, isn't this a lovely idea?' and the answer is 'yeah, that's the point'. Aeolia probably did do the right thing for his plan with cryosleeping himself. But that's mostly because Aeolia's plan is insane and easily corrupted and breakable. You aren't meant to think it was perfect, and most of the first season especially spells out how terrible it actually is.
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Apr 13, 2022 12:42
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I do remember a good few people at the time commenting on Graham's line in the first episode that Celestial Being fighting for peace was a contradiction and a good joke, because it was taking it's concept seriously but obviously rather hypocritical and making some pretty heavy hints that Celestial Being were, if not in the wrong, then at least rather murky as a group. And that the writers recognized how silly some of the ideas they were running with were, even if they were taking them seriously.
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Apr 13, 2022 12:54
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tsob posted:He couldn't deal with it unless he was cryosleeped, because he's still human at the end of the day and lived 200 years before the show takes place. Lived, and was frozen in what appeared to be his 50s. So unless he found the solution to aging, took it off screen and told literally nobody about it, including the audience, then he had to cryosleep if he wanted to see the fruits of his labors at all. How do you think he was going to deal with anything in the current day, outside cryosleep? He maybe could've spent his remaining years making sure his dumbass plan would actually work instead of setting an AI to auto and checking out until he got the world he wanted. What was he going to do when the cryosleep finally ended? I'm guessing it wouldn't involve even so much as glancing at whoever died to make his dream world possible. That's my issue with the cryosleep, morally. it betrays that the most important part of The Plan was that he, personally, would get a world he was satisfied with. From a writing standpoint I actually like it, Celestial Being as an organization and the entire plan was a complete mess so of course the founder was also a self-centered dipshit. Yinlock fucked around with this message at 13:22 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 13:13
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He can't ensure it'll work though, cause it's a plan that involves literally centuries of planning. He can set factors in place, but at some point he has to just hope for the best, because he'll die before the plan can actually come to fruition. Long before it, frankly. Generations before it. You can try and ensure good guardrails in place to try and limit damage before you check out at that point, but you cannot live to be one of those guardrails. Schenberg was absolutely an egotistic jerk who wanted to see the fruits of his labors personally if he could, but that doesn't detract from the point that at some point he had to let the plan go on it's own rather than guiding it because of human limitations. At the same time though, I don't blame the guy. If you were able to envision a plan that could feasibly ensure world peace, including dozens of inventions that'd be for the betterment of society, wouldn't you want to see a little bit of that world? Like, sure, it's selfish as gently caress; it's also human and it'd be a minority of people who aren't going to make that decision when presented with it. tsob fucked around with this message at 13:27 on Apr 13, 2022 |
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Apr 13, 2022 13:25
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The Celestial Being house of cards only collapsed after hundreds of years and getting like 85% of the way to it's stated goal, so it's not it was some hopelessly naive plan that went to pieces the minute Schenberg took his hands off the wheel and bedded down in cryo, they even ended up with just enough of the right pieces in place to survive that collapse and see the plan through When Saji's sister is investigating him she finds that a whole cohort of scientific leaders disappeared around the time Schenberg did, so at the time he would almost certainly have been surrounded by like minds continuing his work and the rot only crept in over time
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Apr 13, 2022 13:48
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Seemlar posted:The Celestial Being house of cards only collapsed after hundreds of years and getting like 85% of the way to it's stated goal, so it's not it was some hopelessly naive plan that went to pieces the minute Schenberg took his hands off the wheel and bedded down in cryo, they even ended up with just enough of the right pieces in place to survive that collapse and see the plan through For about 75% of that time we have no idea what CB was actually doing. I'm pretty sure 00P is the only media covering what happens before the anime right? 00F runs in parallel? I'm only familiar with the side material from what G Generation showed off. Sitting around developing tech in secret when no one else knows about you is easier when you don't have people trying to break in since they don't know you exist. My impression is that CB was unknown to the outside world until the show's armed interventions started. Even folks like Alejandro had minimal contact and knowledge of its existence until they 'went public' and it was only after that people like Alejandro had the opportunity to start putting their thumb on the scale. And even that wasn't really an outsider getting in, since it was made pretty clear Ribbons was using Corner like a hand puppet to put the Innovades--specifically him--in charge. I think one thing worth stating is that the actual end goal of CB is a pretty simple one: produce natural human Innovators who can communicate with the aliens. World peace and unification are a side effect of this since Innovators are short-hand for Newtypes and their power to completely understand each other and exist without conflict. (Whether that is a correct interpretation of Tomino's Newtypes is an exercise left to the reader.)
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Apr 13, 2022 14:03
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No, I'm pretty sure Innovators were only envisaged as something that'd arise out of a world where humanity had been united and was at peace because the Twin Drive system was something that was only foreseen but not actually concretely planned for within Schenberg's plans. Besides which, the refrain they bang on a lot is that "humanity has to be united for the dialogues to come", which implies the dialogues can't happen until humanity is united and thus, that the unification is itself an important step.
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Apr 13, 2022 14:58
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Yeah Tiera specifically states that his plan was that the world would unite against CB, which would lead to a united humanity, which would lead to the dialogues to come. in his own plan, it was expected that CB would lose eventually. With the united government getting the hands on the gn drives, this would lead to people becoming innovators. Really his plan wasn't that stupid, although I always kinda hated in fiction how the "unite against the big threat" leads to permanent unification even after the threat is ostensibly gone. Aeolia got what he wanted, the world unified thanks to his plan and managed to survive it's first dialogue with an alien race. He just he didn't plan on an innovade taking over from the inside. If it wasn't for Ribbons giving the GN Drive tech to the world nations, it's entirely possible that CB could have stopped all major armed conflict on a permanent basis.
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Apr 13, 2022 17:24
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00 is batshit in a totally different way from Wing, but I think it can be easily argued/noted that they are stylistically related in that they always go for the absurd over the top answer to anything the plot could offer.
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Apr 13, 2022 17:41
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Monaghan posted:Really his plan wasn't that stupid, although I always kinda hated in fiction how the "unite against the big threat" leads to permanent unification even after the threat is ostensibly gone. Aeolia got what he wanted, the world unified thanks to his plan and managed to survive it's first dialogue with an alien race. He just he didn't plan on an innovade taking over from the inside. If it wasn't for Ribbons giving the GN Drive tech to the world nations, it's entirely possible that CB could have stopped all major armed conflict on a permanent basis. Without Alejandro going off-script and deploying the Thrones, Celestial Being would have lost to GN driveless conventional forces in the desert battle and at the very least one or two of the Gundams would have been captured.
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Apr 13, 2022 19:18
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Kanos posted:Without Alejandro going off-script and deploying the Thrones, Celestial Being would have lost to GN driveless conventional forces in the desert battle and at the very least one or two of the Gundams would have been captured. Which I think would also have been good enough from Schenberg's perspective, as the international proliferation of true GN drives slowly but surely increased the prevalence of Innovator telepathy. Presumably, Veda would also have implemented a new plan of action for the Celestial Being remnants to facilitate humanity's unification and mutation once their Gundams got captured, too, seeing as the Ptolemaios and their other facilities would still be reasonably safe. Maybe leaking GN tech through back-channels to non-aligned countries so the blocs don't hoard it for themselves?
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Apr 13, 2022 19:38
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Most of my enjoyment of Gundam comes after the fact in SRW crossover poo poo. Setsuna telling Heero he's a Gundam and Heero saying the same in return, and Setsuna being genuinely happy about it.
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Apr 13, 2022 19:53
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Darth Walrus posted:Which I think would also have been good enough from Schenberg's perspective, as the international proliferation of true GN drives slowly but surely increased the prevalence of Innovator telepathy. Presumably, Veda would also have implemented a new plan of action for the Celestial Being remnants to facilitate humanity's unification and mutation once their Gundams got captured, too, seeing as the Ptolemaios and their other facilities would still be reasonably safe. Maybe leaking GN tech through back-channels to non-aligned countries so the blocs don't hoard it for themselves? I think that if the desert battle had destroyed CB militarily it would have ruined the plan, because the blocs still had no incentive to form a more permanent alliance at that point - if anything, it probably would have led to open conflict over who gets to haul away the captured GN drives.
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Apr 13, 2022 20:04
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Kanos posted:I think that if the desert battle had destroyed CB militarily it would have ruined the plan, because the blocs still had no incentive to form a more permanent alliance at that point - if anything, it probably would have led to open conflict over who gets to haul away the captured GN drives. Which could have, again, been mitigated by the CB remnants immediately going 'screw it, all GN tech is open-source now'.
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Apr 13, 2022 20:21
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Darth Walrus posted:Which could have, again, been mitigated by the CB remnants immediately going 'screw it, all GN tech is open-source now'. Except there are still limited true GN drives and even with CB know how and tech they can't easily make new ones.
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Apr 13, 2022 20:28
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i don't see how the tech being open source helps unify nations so much as it would prevent a single nation from getting away with all the GN drives and becoming the dominant world leader
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Apr 13, 2022 20:39
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ninjewtsu posted:i don't see how the tech being open source helps unify nations so much as it would prevent a single nation from getting away with all the GN drives and becoming the dominant world leader The idea is that GN radiation increases the incidence of Innovator telepathy, which seems to be the primary vehicle for global unity in the Schenberg plan. Ending the energy oligarchy would also help mitigate a key source of modern conflict.
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Apr 13, 2022 20:43
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Darth Walrus posted:The idea is that GN radiation increases the incidence of Innovator telepathy, which seems to be the primary vehicle for global unity in the Schenberg plan. Ending the energy oligarchy would also help mitigate a key source of modern conflict. The primary vehicle for global unity in the Schenberg plan was Celestial Being becoming The Big Bad Enemy that everyone united against. Innovators didn't really start awakening until the Trans Am Burst happened, and Trans Am being unlocked wasn't even part of the original plan. Even Setsuna only evolved as an innovator because he was marinating in a Gundam for half his life.
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Apr 13, 2022 21:20
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Darth Walrus posted:The idea is that GN radiation increases the incidence of Innovator telepathy, which seems to be the primary vehicle for global unity in the Schenberg plan. Ending the energy oligarchy would also help mitigate a key source of modern conflict. Then why didn't they start and end with the open source part? The gently caress were the gundams for?
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Apr 13, 2022 21:51
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To give them something to unite against Also worth noting the plan went way off the rails. Aeolia didn't know about the ELS or expect them. The dialogues we're supposed to come after the celestial being mother ship left the solar system.
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Apr 13, 2022 22:00
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ninjewtsu posted:Then why didn't they start and end with the open source part? The gently caress were the gundams for? Gunpla
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Apr 13, 2022 23:41
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Kanos posted:Without Alejandro going off-script and deploying the Thrones, Celestial Being would have lost to GN driveless conventional forces in the desert battle and at the very least one or two of the Gundams would have been captured. Speaking of Alejandro, maybe I just wasn't paying enough attention, I remember this one scene with him speaking to a bunch of..I dunno, people, TV screns, something, and I didn't understand any of it. I think somebody told me at the time this only makes sense if you read some manga, the show itself does a horrible job of explaining who any of these people are and what's going on. But maybe not, it's been a long time.
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Apr 13, 2022 23:45
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TBF 00 S1 was generally all about poking holes in the whole fighting to end war idea, so a lot of flaws were likely intentional. Also less-charitably I'm pretty sure that the writers made up the plan as they went along, which is why it's generally so weird and inconsistent. Argas posted:Most of my enjoyment of Gundam comes after the fact in SRW crossover poo poo. Early on Heero tells him that Setsuna is not gundam, and so he must...BECOME GUNDAM. Somehow this leads to an ironclad friendship.
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Apr 14, 2022 00:08
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Yinlock posted:TBF 00 S1 was generally all about poking holes in the whole unite the world against bad guy idea. Also I'm pretty sure that the writers made up the plan as they went along, which is why it's generally so weird and inconsistent. SEED and 00 also seemed to both have a bit of "we can have the tie in manga as part of a larger whole! People love that kind of crap!" going on, which didn't work out so well.
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Apr 14, 2022 00:10
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chiasaur11 posted:SEED and 00 also seemed to both have a bit of "we can have the tie in manga as part of a larger whole! People love that kind of crap!" going on, which didn't work out so well. SEED got a fun romp out of it at least, but the 00 ones were mostly someone focusing on how cool and edgy their OC Fon Spaak was.
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Apr 14, 2022 00:18
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chiasaur11 posted:SEED and 00 also seemed to both have a bit of "we can have the tie in manga as part of a larger whole! People love that kind of crap!" going on, which didn't work out so well. I mean it pretty objectively went well for SEED. It has easily the most EU material that isn't OYW-era UC Gundam and apparently does well enough they keep pumping it out. Astray is up there with Crossbone and (until recently) Hathaway's Flash as basically being a tier just below actually animated in terms of push.
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Apr 14, 2022 01:13
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