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He should learn some better technical boxing too, it's absurd that this series paints Counters as some magic signature move, like counterpunching is some mythic art that only a few people can do.
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Sep 4, 2014 20:40
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tbp posted:Yeah, he was talented enough that he'd have won it anyway. But that's the coach downplaying his own part a bit as well - reigning in Takamura was the challenge and nobody else really could have done it. But Kamogawa only considers his promise fulfilled when he raises someone up from the very beginning, which has to be Ippo. Reined him in how? I think he's a lot tamer in terms of personality than some of the fighters other coaches put up with. Hawk for instance is a totally undisciplined psychotic, and he was world champion. I imagine Takamura could have done the same. The only thing is Takamura has to have the discipline to cut tons of weight, and then he has to be on a whole different level to fight at that weight, and maybe one or both of those is beyond Hawk.
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Sep 4, 2014 23:26
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McNerd posted:Reined him in how? I think he's a lot tamer in terms of personality than some of the fighters other coaches put up with. Hawk for instance is a totally undisciplined psychotic, and he was world champion. I imagine Takamura could have done the same. Well, we saw in a (very short) flashback that Kamogawa met Takamura after the latter had beat the poo poo out of some guys in an alley. He also spent his time beating up high school delinquents back when Aoki and Kimura met him. Also, if I remember right, part of what gave Takamura an edge over Hawk is that Takamura was able to combine the insane, unbridled violence with actual discipline and technique.
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Sep 5, 2014 00:13
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DoubleDonut posted:Well, we saw in a (very short) flashback that Kamogawa met Takamura after the latter had beat the poo poo out of some guys in an alley. He also spent his time beating up high school delinquents back when Aoki and Kimura met him. Yeah I mean that's all true, Kamogawa did straighten him out a lot and instill some discipline and skills that helped him. But I don't think it's that farfetched to say that Takamura could have become world champion without him; maybe he just would have lost a fight or two along the way rather than dominating everyone up to the world championship. And I don't see the evidence that "nobody else" could have straightened Takamura out, given there are plenty of coaches who've taken much harder cases and at least turned them into functional boxers. (If I'm going to downplay Takamura's bad behavior I should probably acknowledge that he's a habitual sex offender. But that's sort of separate from the issue at hand.)
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Sep 5, 2014 01:55
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McNerd posted:Yeah I mean that's all true, Kamogawa did straighten him out a lot and instill some discipline and skills that helped him. But I don't think it's that farfetched to say that Takamura could have become world champion without him; maybe he just would have lost a fight or two along the way rather than dominating everyone up to the world championship. And I don't see the evidence that "nobody else" could have straightened Takamura out, given there are plenty of coaches who've taken much harder cases and at least turned them into functional boxers. Fair enough, rephrased I mean more that, in-universe, Kamogawa is the only one that could have made Takamura the disciplined and motivated fighter he is (big difference between Ippo and Takamura there, Takamura wants to win the belts for two reasons - himself and the coach. As well theres a clear dual-sided coin thing going on where Takamura was wild and violent and needed discipline and textbook predictability, whereas Ippo is the exact opposite). Someone like Miguel could only channel Hawk's boxing, which is why it was "just violence" (something the author goes through pains to convey) and he wasn't as real or good, I guess, a champion as Takamura. So yeah Takamura could have won the belt, just like Hawk did, but when he met someone more wild/animal/violent than himself he would have lost, which is referenced in the scene where he dodges Hawks unconcious sway back counter in the last round and delivers his own counter-counter. Takamura is supposed to be (again in universe) the perfect boxer, an even mix of wildness and absolute technique, which is something none of the other "wild" fighters have had (Sendo, Sawamura, Hawk) and none of the other "disciplined" (dunno what a better term here would be) fighters have either (Eagle the biggest example, Date before he returned to his natural state). So yeah that's a repeated theme, where the only time you get a perfect boxer is when wildness and technique are mixed evenly and I guarantee when we finally see Martinez fight he'll start off with textbook stuff and then have a "shocking" reveal to do something unexpected and wild. Miyata is another one of these, like a Takamura/Martinez-lite, where he is this ultra skilled textbook counter fighter, but when push comes to shove he brings out something ludicrous like the jolt, but its clearly to his detriment that he doesnt have that skillset naturally. For hundreds of chapters now theyve been showing how Ippo doesnt have any of that wildness and it is his weakness, and he specifically fought a bunch of boxers beforehand who had too much of it, Woli being the main one there. As well he had that fight against that guy whose name I cant remember where he used "violence" and the coach berated him a lot for it, and we all know how Ippo reacts to being scolded by the coach.. hes gonna take it to heart. With all this garbage in mind its why I think the upcoming arcs will have coach focus on Ippo finding some sort of wildness in himself, some reason to fight that causes him to go a level above and not follow the same drat routine over and over. Its weird really, the pace of the manga is incredibly retarded and a lot of the fights read stupidly bad when getting them two-chapters at a time once every month and a half or whatever, but the themes are really laid on well and established a long time in the past e lol ive done this a bunch of times but sry for the billion words tbp fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Sep 5, 2014 |
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Sep 5, 2014 02:16
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I don't think Ippo needs wildness, so much as something new. Going back to the Kimura example, he developed his dragon-fish punch. Aoki has plenty of tricks, and Takamura can resort to his wildness to make up for his technique shortcomings. Ippo on the other hand has the basics and the Dempsey Roll... and the Dempsey was neutralized many chapters ago, it only became useful again when he added some randomness, but it could be made useless again. If this was real life, he would need a coach who hammers into him defense and mobility, learning to block punches not with his face, and to attack from the sides and at angles. He needs to start using his legs and body as well as his fists, and to start thinking beyond "I'll just keep moving forward and punch harder!  "
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Sep 5, 2014 22:47
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Chapter 1071. Ippo looks lost after losing. I'd never!
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Sep 9, 2014 18:23
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"I felt something inside him I knew that i couldn't let him go on to face Ricardo!" Maybe because he'd get literally killed? No, something something niphon burning spirit something
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Sep 9, 2014 21:28
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SirDan3k posted:"I felt something inside him I knew that i couldn't let him go on to face Ricardo!" Maybe Ricardo actually is a huge pussy. An absurdly fast, clever glass jaw. One Ippo punch could obliterate his soul, or something.
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Sep 9, 2014 22:54
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Shinjobi posted:Maybe Ricardo actually is a huge pussy. An absurdly fast, clever glass jaw. One Ippo punch could obliterate his soul, or something. Now I'm imagining a scenario where Ippo finally gets that one lucky hook to the jaw, and Ricardo's head goes spinning off his body like a twist cap.
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Sep 10, 2014 00:45
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Jose Mendoza, who was the ultimate goal of Joe in Ashita No Joe was exactly that. He was so good he never really got beaten up in a fight. Joe manages to stay upright just long enough to finally get clean hits on him and he basically wilts. Joe and him get to trading blows, and Joe (who is now severely punch drunk and normally used to getting beaten up) basically beats the dogshit out of him. At the end of the fight Mendoza looks like he's aged 20 years and has white hair.
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Sep 10, 2014 04:02
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Or the first time Mike Tyson lost a fight, against Buster Douglas. Tyson was a heavy hitter that so far hadn't found an opponent who tasked him. Douglas did that, took the beating and came back to win by KO. Have a youtube link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QInjR9yAF4Y Also "technically unremarkable". Best description of Ippo so far. Edit: From that video: "When the intimidator fails to intimidate, he becomes intimidated". Both Ippo loses are because his opponents didn't fear his punching power above all else, and kept thinking of ways to win. Kal-L fucked around with this message at 09:17 on Sep 10, 2014 |
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Sep 10, 2014 09:12
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Kal-L posted:Both Ippo loses are because his opponents didn't fear his punching power above all else, and kept thinking of ways to win. Almost like boxing is more nuanced than that arcade machine in the bar where you punch the pad really hard to get the high score.
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Sep 10, 2014 16:42
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Hey, on the bright side, they announced a new ps3 game. Maybe it'll be good?
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Sep 10, 2014 16:50
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I remember the old Victorious Boxers games were supposed to be really good so there is some reason for hope.
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Sep 10, 2014 18:08
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ZerodotJander posted:I remember the old Victorious Boxers games were supposed to be really good so there is some reason for hope. The one for wii was pretty poo poo garbage.
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Sep 12, 2014 04:18
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ZerodotJander posted:I remember the old Victorious Boxers games were supposed to be really good so there is some reason for hope. I stiil pop in the playstation ones from time to time. Tons of fun and Ricardo is insane.
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Sep 12, 2014 04:22
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I just finished reading it, and well if you're a fan of Ippo you should read Ashita no Joe.. HNI owes so so much to it and it's really amazing
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Sep 15, 2014 16:16
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Are Ahista no Joe and RRR the only boxing mangas that have ended?
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Sep 15, 2014 17:06
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KidDynamite posted:Are Ahista no Joe and RRR the only boxing mangas that have ended? Mitsuru Adachi's Katsu ended.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:09
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KidDynamite posted:Are Ahista no Joe and RRR the only boxing mangas that have ended? Rokudenashi Blues (same guy that did Rookies) ended but it was more about delinquents than boxing I guess.
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Sep 15, 2014 17:11
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HNI has storylines that seem straight up lifted from ANJ lol
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Sep 15, 2014 17:14
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KidDynamite posted:Are Ahista no Joe and RRR the only boxing mangas that have ended? RRR technically ended, but it was clearly rushed and a pretty awful ending.
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Sep 15, 2014 18:10
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tbp posted:HNI has storylines that seem straight up lifted from ANJ lol Morikawa is old enough that it was probably a strong direct influence. So far he's stayed away from all of the developments that ANJ had that would resemble plot advancement or real drama however. Like, in Ashita No Joe, Joe's best friend/rival literally dies in the ring fighting him and it fucks him up so bad he pulls punches and loses a bunch of fights after that. Then the possibility of Joe being Punch Drunk is teased forever as Joe's self-destructive nature is used for actual drama, then it turns out yes he is and he dies after losing in a close decision to Corrida who is an "invincible" Mexican boxer who has never been beaten. Fabricated fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 18:11
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Fabricated posted:Morikawa is old enough that it was probably a strong direct influence. That last fight was so loving good. That Joe went down with a smile on his face before even hearing the decision, the champ's hair turned white, man I wish it never ended but since it had to what a great note to go out on. tbp fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 18:43
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tbp posted:That last fight was so loving good. That Joe went down with a smile on his face before even hearing the decision, the champ's hair turned white, man I wish it never ended but since it had to what a great note to go out on. kinda perfect really well outside of the promoter lady suddenly confessing her love to him before the match; that was corny as hell the rest is pretty good; especially because Joe is a weird and unlikable character and they make you root for him. Fabricated fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 19:20
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Fabricated posted:AnJ ending GOD drat IT. gently caress. I just started reading you idiot. Sigh thats one manga down the drain. At least I managed to avoid reading the ending spoiler but I probably know what it is now anyway. Bisse fucked around with this message at 20:09 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 20:07
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Bisse posted:loving SPOILER TAGS!!!! Read it anyway, it's about the journey there, I vaguely knew what was going to happen at the end and I finished it yesterday lol also it's legitimately like 50 years old and is probably the biggest influence on this manga.. I empathize but cmon man
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Sep 15, 2014 20:14
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It's from 1973 stop being a little bitch. AnJ is really great and I have to imagine that ending was a real shocker when it first came out.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:16
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KidDynamite posted:It's from 1973 stop being a little bitch. I personally don't really care about spoilers but it's not like we're talking about loving Star Wars here. I'd never even heard of AnJ until this thread and frankly that kind of thing seems like it'd have a better impact when not already known.
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Sep 15, 2014 20:19
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I'll edit out anything anyone finds an issue with, feel bad if it does ruin someone's enjoyment of a great series
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Sep 15, 2014 20:33
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 Alright, spoiler tags edited in for literal like 60 year-old manga there you go.Even spoiled it's still a classic and a good read; if you quit just because you know the ending you miss out on a lot of the better parts leading up to it.
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Sep 15, 2014 21:06
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Seems like Sendo is basically a homage to Joe. Both have the nickname Rocky, hang around with kids, the same personality pretty much, and even the hairstyle isn't too far off.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:52
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Fabricated posted:
Well, it's not like the manga's been translated for 60 years.
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Sep 17, 2014 02:58
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JuanGoat posted:Well, it's not like the manga's been translated for 60 years. Also I thought spoilers were only really ignored in super popular older stuff. Isn't it a bit much to expect someone to know the end of an obscure boxing manga? Taking bets on who Ippo is going to fight next after his recovery/retraining-to-not-be-a-punching-bag. Straight rematch where he outclasses, working his way off another competitor again? Permanent brain damage?
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Sep 18, 2014 01:35
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Bushmaori posted:Also I thought spoilers were only really ignored in super popular older stuff. Isn't it a bit much to expect someone to know the end of an obscure boxing manga? I don't know about Ippo's next fight, but if we're lucky we'll get a Takamura fight that isn't a Disney joke. We'll probably get some stupid comedy fights out of Kimura and Aoki (another rematch against Eleki and the broccoli guy?) and I'm sure Itagaki will god mode his way to a victory somewhere. Ippo will spend the whole time moping and thinking about retirement.
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Sep 18, 2014 01:37
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In a way, Itagaki and Ippo just got their asses kicked by lacking the very thing the other is the expert at. Itagaki is godmode dodgemasters who goes down in a single hit, while Ippo 'Faceful-o-fists' 'Fist Magnet' '"Hes like a boxer from the Stone Age"' 'Boxing is about G.U.T.S' Makunouchi is well you all are acutely aware of his strengths and flaws. (It's that he gets hit a lot (because he can't dodge (hes very stronk though so he can take it (because he worked on a boat)))) Maybe they'll buckle down in the gym and start learning from each other? EDIT: I swear to god if the coach comes with another loving solution like 'you need to become even stronger by training your knees/trapezoids to absorb more damage' or '...hit before getting hit, that's the key!' instead of tackling the underlying problem of him getting hit in the first place, I am done with this manga. Bisse fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 18, 2014 01:51
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There is absolutely zero chance that Kamogawa is going to teach Ippo how to box intelligently and if you legitimately believe that might ever happen then you might be more brain damaged than Ippo.
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Sep 18, 2014 02:39
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TriffTshngo posted:There is absolutely zero chance that Kamogawa is going to teach Ippo how to box intelligently and if you legitimately believe that might ever happen then you might be more brain damaged than Ippo.
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Sep 18, 2014 03:45
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A reminder that Itagaki is so stupid he lost the title fight because he let a man rush him straight into the corner and beat him unconscious in under a minute in the first round, after he gets knocked down in basically the first second, when the only value he has as a human being is being the speed king. A man that gets hard every time he imagines himself as a the speed king lost because he couldn't dictate the pace of the fight even after it instantly became painfully obvious his opponent was in no way loving around. He's not even the best fighter of his generation, let alone his weight class, and as is now painfully obvious the world level makes most of these people look like children. Nobody that mediocre should be that in love with his abilities. e: Itagaki is only qualified to teach people how to fail and die alone and unloved. Mulva fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Sep 18, 2014 |
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Sep 18, 2014 04:07
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