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Metapod posted:The compulsion is there to show that no matter how far you stray from your nature your blood is still the same as everyone else in your clan. Yes, obviously. The problem isn't the fact of an inescapable blood curse, the problem is that the actual specifics of the blood curse are a lazy cart-before-the-horse kludge job. I wouldn't say this for most of V5's mechanics, but the clan compulsions are honest to god worse than the old clan weaknesses in most if not all cases. Compare the Brujah: Revised/V20 Brujah just get a penalty to resist anger frenzy, combined with cheap access to the most straightforward physical disciplines, so they've got hair-trigger tempers and the muscle they need to get away with having hair-trigger tempers a lot of the time. Their reputation as malcontents and revolutionaries is clearly an outgrowth of the fact that they have a harder time staying cool in the face of provocation. It's not that Brujah are naturally rebellious or political - nobody likes being told what to do, but a Toreador or Nosferatu or something is less likely to snap and go berserk the fifth or tenth or twentieth time that some rear end in a top hat harpy mouths off at them. Meanwhile V5 Brujah all have intermittently-active oppositional defiance disorder. And there's at least a gem of something there, too: the fact that your clan weakness is more likely to happen the hungrier you are is smart design. But instead of actually thinking what kind of subtle, immanent blood curse might result in the existing clan stereotype, the devs just tell you to act out your clan stereotype. Garbage!
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May 1, 2020 22:25
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It's okay for families to share traits yall and that's what clans are vampire families
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May 1, 2020 22:25
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If a vampire loses their Ordo Dracul status should they still be able to upgrade their coils yes/no
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May 1, 2020 22:32
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Metapod posted:It's okay for families to share traits yall and that's what clans are vampire families You're being very dishonest. No one is against families sharing traits. The Nosferatu, for instance, share many traits: they're all hideously ugly, they're all naturally proficient with Animalism, Obfuscate, and Potence, they all create more Nosferatu when they sire new vampires. In Revised, the Nosferatu clan weakness began and ended with "you have Appearance 0 and can never raise it". The fact that they all lived underground or otherwise out of sight, the fact that many of them were spies and information brokers, etc. all flowed logically out of the fact that they didn't want to be looked at and they had a power set well suited for hiding and spying. If Nosferatu had to make a saving throw vs. pointless sitcom character secret-keeping on top of all this it wouldn't just be insultingly stupid, it'd be redundant. Like, imagine if the V5 Nosferatu compulsion was an aversion to light that gave you a penalty until you got out of direct illumination or an intensified penalty on first impressions as your flesh visibly withers and tightens and makes you even more repellent. Anything but this hot-blooded Spaniard/criminally-inclined Slav poo poo.
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May 1, 2020 22:45
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Dawgstar posted:Speaking of: Here's the video for the Werewolf creative team for the OP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzfAWlJkshE and here's the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkZZ7Q2Lsvc Thanks! added to the OP
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May 1, 2020 22:47
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The point of the nos one is to force your ugly face into a social scene of some sort. Is it perfect probably not but I don't see the issue of having shared good and bad traits from the original vampires creating thus creating some stereotypes. Also there are many different types of compulsions you're not always doing your clan one unless your ST is only using it
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May 1, 2020 23:16
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Down With People posted:If a vampire loses their Ordo Dracul status should they still be able to upgrade their coils yes/no Rules as Written? No. You can't have any non-Mystery Coil at a level that exceeds your Covenant Status, and if you lose your status you also technically are no longer part of that Mystery. Edit: I'd argue that an ex-Dragon could operate as an apostate and do self study to advance Coils they already began to learn. However, without access to the existing social structure and knowledge of the Ordo Dracul, their progress would be severely hampered and probably come with an increase in XP costs to advance. Free Gratis fucked around with this message at 23:24 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 23:19
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Metapod posted:The point of the nos one is to force your ugly face into a social scene of some sort. Is it perfect probably not but I don't see the issue of having shared good and bad traits from the original vampires creating thus creating some stereotypes. Also there are many different types of compulsions you're not always doing your clan one unless your ST is only using it Again, you are being dishonest. This isn't about "shared good and bad traits creating some stereotyes" because those already existed long before V5. Nosferatu share bad traits, like burning in sunlight and being unable to pass for human. They also share good traits, like super-strength. The problem is the stereotypes themselves being reified as game rules. It'd be like if Ventrue took a -2 die penalty until they joined the Camarilla, or if Malkavians lost -2 dice until they hit someone with a trout. I've been judiciously ignoring the obvious political and moral problems with a game that claims specific maladaptive personality traits are inherited unavoidably through your blood because even if you think Ravnos stealing frenzies are A-Okay the actual technical game design means by which those behaviors have been added to the game are clumsy and awful.
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May 1, 2020 23:30
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How am I being dishonest? It's how the game v5 does it
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May 1, 2020 23:34
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Ferrinus posted:the actual technical game design means by which those behaviors have been added to the game are clumsy and awful. Yeah they need to change it to the LA by night house rule
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May 1, 2020 23:42
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Metapod posted:How am I being dishonest? It's how the game v5 does it You are being dishonest by claiming that the issue is of whether there should be "shared good and bad traits from the original vampires", rather than that the clan compulsions are specifically bad and a definitive step down from past editions of Masquerade. It'd be crazy to claim that vampires of the same clan shouldn't share traits! So crazy, in fact, that no one has said that. Metapod posted:Yeah they need to change it to the LA by night house rule Having a 2% instead of a 5% of entering a Ravnos stealing frenzy doesn't actually fix the problem. The clan compulsions should be rewritten so as to resemble blood curses rather than ethnic stereotypes, or simply outright deleted. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 23:50 on May 1, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 23:44
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Where did ethnic stereotypes come from???
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May 1, 2020 23:46
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I like compulsions like I said they add a little spice to failed social rolls but each to their own
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May 1, 2020 23:47
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Also I'm having a hard time seeing how the compulsions aren't apart of blood curses when they are derived from the original curse kane did on them
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May 1, 2020 23:50
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Just to be clear I'm not saying that any system does the job better or worse just the reason why compulsions are in v5 (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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May 1, 2020 23:51
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Metapod posted:Where did ethnic stereotypes come from??? The Ravnos have historically been cursed with literally acting out ethnic stereotypes, but the clan compulsions as written have the form of ethnic or racial stereotypes even if their content only occasionally matches. Certain types of people are rowdy and insubordinate. Certain types of people are flighty and undisciplined. Certain types of people are nosy and untrustworthy. It's just in their blood. The smart thing about pre-V5 oWoD and the nWoD both is that it created a situation in which (most) stereotypes about different clans or paths or whatever logically arose from those clans' really-existing traits. Again: V20 Nosferatu don't fall into a secret-keeping frenzy if they fail a roll. They're just ugly and good at turning invisible. Is the stereotype that Nosferatu are sneaky gossips true? Well, yes, it frequently is, but not because Nosferatu have extra computer hacking tendons in their fingers. It's because of the material circumstances most Nosferatu find themselves in. Metapod posted:Also I'm having a hard time seeing how the compulsions aren't apart of blood curses when they are derived from the original curse kane did on them Again, compare pre and post-V5 Nosferatu. The actual curse on the Nosferatu is that they're shockingly deformed and hideous. It's a physical or supernatural trait that imposes on members of the clan from without (or "within" but like, within their blood vessels). I suppose they could have an additional, weaker curse that makes them become nosy and pointlessly annoying 5% of the time (or, if you had your way, 2% of the time). But that would be stupid, and if anything detract from the narrative impact of their clan's actual defining feature. Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 00:02 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 1, 2020 23:57
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What makes it a ethnic stereotype though? Is it determined by where the vampire is from? Like Ravnos from France do this but Ravnos from Iran do that? Yeah they are just leaning in on common tropes of each clan which is good. The nos curse is still there in their bane so it's still there just something else was added on top of that
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May 2, 2020 00:16
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Metapod posted:What makes it a ethnic stereotype though? Is it determined by where the vampire is from? Like Ravnos from France do this but Ravnos from Iran do that? Holy shut. gently caress off.
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May 2, 2020 00:30
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Down With People posted:If a vampire loses their Ordo Dracul status should they still be able to upgrade their coils yes/no Make 'em have to poach a Wyrm's Nest if they want to do this. Not necessarily from the Ordo, just, any given suitable site for a Wyrm's Nest is likely to have somebody out there who thinks you poached it from them. Or if not, somebody interested in poaching it from you.
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May 2, 2020 00:49
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Metapod posted:What makes it a ethnic stereotype though? Is it determined by where the vampire is from? Like Ravnos from France do this but Ravnos from Iran do that? It is LIKE an ethnic (or gender, or...) stereotype in that it postulates that certain very specific and consciously-controlled behaviors and preferences, like playing with dolls instead of trucks or getting mouthy and insubordinate instead of properly obeying authority, are innate bloodborne character traits rather than outcomes of your life circumstances. Do you understand the difference I'm trying to draw between a clan weakness like "you have a harder time resisting frenzy" and a clan weakness like "you become defiant when people ask you to do things", or "you look inhuman" and "you are obsessed with learning secrets"? I think I've been pretty clear but it doesn't seem to be landing.
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May 2, 2020 01:00
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Free Gratis posted:I'm confident in that there's won't be any international incidents or piss play, which is great. I'm still not a fan of Ericsson's broader changes in V5 like the Second Inquisition and the Beckoning, and I will be beyond disappointed if a New Impergium becomes the prevailing zeitgeist for the Garou nation. The two of those were already baked into V5 when Modiphus got control and Ericsson was booted out thoroughly enough that they're not easily removed without doing a V5.5 (And I don't think the Second Inquisition is all that bad an idea, it just needs some serious fleshing out.) I'd honestly be surprised if anything that wasn't actively in production before he was told to get out hasn't gone through massive changes.
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May 2, 2020 01:17
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I'm never really gonna play V5 but Coteries of New York is really fun and I'm going to play it at least twice so I can not gently caress up with Aisling Sturbridge and figure out what the hell the True Faith stuff is about the second time through.
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May 2, 2020 01:27
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Ferrinus posted:Do you understand the difference I'm trying to draw between a clan weakness like "you have a harder time resisting frenzy" and a clan weakness like "you become defiant when people ask you to do things", or "you look inhuman" and "you are obsessed with learning secrets"? I think I've been pretty clear but it doesn't seem to be landing. No I really don't
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May 2, 2020 02:17
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This, NikkolasKing, is why you don't engage with Oberst or their alter ego, Metapod. They spam up the thread with incredibly stupid bullshit and are either dense as all hell or actively disingenuous and frankly in neither case do they provide anything of value. I'll take Magechat over Metapod failing to understand racial stereotyping or Oberst going harassment apologist.
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May 2, 2020 03:10
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Metapod posted:No I really don't Okay, so, the distinction I'm trying to draw is between what we might call "top-level" stereotypical behaviors as opposed to underlying, not-necessarily-visible conditions that might cause those behaviors in many, but not necessarily all, members of a group. To use a slightly charged political example, but not as charged as it easily could be: there are a lot more poor people on buses and other public transport than rich people. Is it because poor people just love buses? No, it's because taking a bus to work is less expensive than buying a car. A particular behavior (using a lot of public transport) has an underlying cause (having little money). If you wanted to design an RPG about getting to work, and you want it to seem realistic, what would be a better way to make sure poor characters used public transport more than rich characters? A) poor characters get -2 to certain rolls unless they've ridden a bus in the past week B) buses cost less money then cars, and poor characters have less money to spend from week to week Both would technically attain your objective of making sure a certain stereotypical behavior did in fact occur in your game, but one of them misrepresents the cause of that behavior and therefore pathologizes (as in, treats as some kind of disease or abnormality) what is actually a perfectly normal and logical behavior given the circumstances. Solution A makes it seem like the poor just love buses for some reason. And, you know, there's nothing wrong with liking buses, but this kind of reasoning can start going to dark places if you start assuming that poor people must also love dying from preventable diseases. To go back to vampire, if we want nosey, sneaky Nosferatu we can do two things: A) Nosferatu get -2 unless they dig up or hide a secret B) the Nosferatu skillset makes up-front social interaction difficult, but spying and sneaking easy My claim is that B is better than A, and also less insulting (whether to fictional vampires or real-world players).
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May 2, 2020 04:10
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Free Gratis posted:Rules as Written? No. You can't have any non-Mystery Coil at a level that exceeds your Covenant Status, and if you lose your status you also technically are no longer part of that Mystery. That's dumb, 1E did this better.
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May 2, 2020 04:31
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i have figured out a fix for Mage, make Paradox and Mana the same thing.
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May 2, 2020 04:58
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:i have figured out a fix for Mage, make Paradox and Mana the same thing. In Ascension, you tracked points of quintessence and points of paradox on the same wheel. If you had too much of both to fit them all, the paradox displaced the quint.
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May 2, 2020 05:03
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Ferrinus posted:In Ascension, you tracked points of quintessence and points of paradox on the same wheel. If you had too much of both to fit them all, the paradox displaced the quint. daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn good thing we're not talking about Ascension huh.
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May 2, 2020 05:16
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- mana and quintessence are the same thing, both get generated from the same sources and have all the same effects as each other - magic gets done through elaborate martial arts katas - i get a red spaceship with arms - also a naked computer space lady drat i guess it looks like the new Mage game takes place in the Towards Stars Expanded Universe? crazy how retro anime is having its moment.
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May 2, 2020 05:18
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:- mana and quintessence are the same thing, both get generated from the same sources and have all the same effects as each other That's not an inaccurate description of what my Mage: The Ascension first ed storyteller screen looks like honestly.
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May 2, 2020 05:38
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PHIZ KALIFA posted:daaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamn good thing we're not talking about Ascension huh.
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May 2, 2020 05:59
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hold on, i have to do a bunch of real magic card tricks so i can charge up enough mana to hadouken you for your insolence.
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May 2, 2020 06:01
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I liked this gimmick better when dril was doing it a decade ago and made it funny
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May 2, 2020 06:03
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well the important thing is you complained a bunch and nothing changed.
PHIZ KALIFA fucked around with this message at 06:19 on May 2, 2020 |
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May 2, 2020 06:04
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Dawgstar posted:Speaking of: Here's the video for the Werewolf creative team for the OP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzfAWlJkshE and here's the trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkZZ7Q2Lsvc Oh wow, I'd only seen the trailer. That video with the creative team has completely turned me around on this. And I let out a scream of happiness when I saw that Cat Evans was writing for this; it's one thing to see a common name in writing credits, it's quite another to see an old friend talking about things you both used to talk about and know it's them.
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May 2, 2020 07:43
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dingo with a joint posted:Oh wow, I'd only seen the trailer. That video with the creative team has completely turned me around on this. And I let out a scream of happiness when I saw that Cat Evans was writing for this; it's one thing to see a common name in writing credits, it's quite another to see an old friend talking about things you both used to talk about and know it's them. Ivan Van Norman is a cool dude, too. I'm still not sold on a couple of the devs, but it looks a good group overall.
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May 2, 2020 13:43
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MonsieurChoc posted:That's dumb, 1E did this better. It's possible I'm wrong because the only thing I could find in the text was the bit about non-Mystery Coils not exceeding status. The idea that you lose Mystery membership along with your Status was just pure interpretation on my part. One thing I forgot to mention is that it looks like nothing stops you from learning new Scales, as they have their own prerequisites.
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May 2, 2020 14:15
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How many enchanments can you layer on an item? My mages are looking for concentrations of rowan on a college campus and want to enchant a pair of binoculars. They'll need life for bushes, and matter for harvested/shaped wood. I'm going to allow it no matter what, but when they want to start enchanting clothes and weapons, it'd be good to have a guidline.
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May 2, 2020 16:01
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Free Gratis posted:It's possible I'm wrong because the only thing I could find in the text was the bit about non-Mystery Coils not exceeding status. The idea that you lose Mystery membership along with your Status was just pure interpretation on my part. The big problem with 1E coils was the scaling XP cost. You weren't capped by status, and there were rules in the covenant book for learning coils on your own/designing new coils/using Wyrm's Nests to learn faster, etc.
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May 2, 2020 17:40
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