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I would definitely have cards not open until the discard. Influencing any strategy due to showing cards would change how a hand ends up, and that should probably not happen, tournament or no tournament.
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Jan 24, 2014 23:33
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silvergoose posted:I would definitely have cards not open until the discard. Influencing any strategy due to showing cards would change how a hand ends up, and that should probably not happen, tournament or no tournament. This was the exact argument. The rules say that you need to open when there is no more possible action, but then what is the order of discarding, etc. I just said discarding is an action, and you don't open until after, but I wasn't on the floor, so meh.
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Jan 25, 2014 00:15
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I'll be linking these hands in my log thread, but since no one is really responding to that thread (which is right here), I wanted to post it here instead. Both of these hands are from a live $2/$5 session where effective stacks are $1000 each. ----- Hand 1: Villain a middle aged man who raises more than average preflop, but he rarely 3-bets preflop. He seems to get really stationy when he hits top pair on the flop no matter what the board runout is (e.g. he will call 3 bets with JT on a T72ddA4d runout against a tighter player). I think he is capable of playing aggressively postflop in the right situation, but overall he is a poor losing player. 2 limpers to me in the CO. I raise to $30 with A  A . Villain in the BB calls. 2 limpers call.Flop: K T 9 (Pot: $120)Checks to me. I bet $75, Villain raises to $200. I fold. This seemed like a straightforward b/f here, especially since I have the A which eliminates some of his combo draws. I think he does this maybe 50% of the time with KJ, KQ, or AK, but there are also tons of combos that beat me as well, and I just bet into 3 other players. Should I call once and re-evaluate turn, or is folding flop best?----- Hand 2: Villain is a younger okay player. Not particularly aggressive, but he's capable of doing things like squeezing and semi-bluffing. Pretty straightforward player most of the time. I raise to $20 UTG with J J . 2 callers in MP and BTN. Villain raises to $95. I call $75. 2 more calls. (the callers in this hand were about $800 and $600 deep).Flop: K 54 (Pot: $380)Villain bets $225. I fold. Postflop I think is fine as played, but my question is should I have 4-bet/folded preflop to like $225-$250? I think if I had QQ+ I would have 4-bet, and 99 I think it's a pretty easy call. TT and JJ are close. Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Jan 28, 2014 |
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Jan 28, 2014 15:59
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ya good fold hand 1. i just flat hand 2 esp if you think the players in b/w will come along often. i am 4betting here as a bluff here about zero percent of a time. with tt-jj it's pure bluff and you have no blockers. i don't really assume players at 2/5 3bet light unless i have a reason to think otherwise. even mega-obvious squeeze spots people don't do it. it feels pretty disgusting to 4b/fold QQ after opening it utg so i would probably flat that as well usually...i don't think getting 200bb in v. a TAG pre is profitable. with some history and if it's not 10 handed table i'll 4bet it. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 07:31 on Jan 29, 2014 |
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Jan 29, 2014 07:27
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I wasn't considering turning JJ into a bluff in Hand 2, just a value raise because I do think the callers would have come along as well and JJ isn't great in a multiway pot. And this player has squeezed before, just not very often, which is why I was conflicted. I usually default to "3-bets mean strength" in live poker, but it was very murky in this case. Against some aggressive players that I play with I think it's a slam dunk 4-bet, and against many of the old nits it's a slam dunk call (or even fold, if shallow enough). I just wasn't sure against this player. Also I wasn't clear in my description of villain. He isn't tight, he's an okay player but he is loose and not super aggressive. Not a LAG, but not loose-passive either. Somewhere in between. And it's a 9-handed table not 10, not that it would matter too much in this case.
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Jan 30, 2014 18:10
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i don't think the original callers will hoodflat a UTG 4b i have never seen that online or live. if that stuff is happening i need to move where ever it is you're playing. if you mean they're gonna overcall the 3b then i have no problem with that result as well since you have better hand than them can potentially win massive pot if you flop a set or they go crazy with toppair. well, if he's squeezing you can just flat cause you're ahead of his range and your hand plays well postflop. it is like always 4b/fold 200bb deep unless villain is insane or drunk. so i don't see the point of 4b/fold such a strong hand. i would rather do it with like, AT. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Jan 30, 2014 |
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Jan 30, 2014 21:04
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Yeah I meant overcalling the 3-bet, the original callers probably wouldn't call a 4-bet. It may have just been me being results oriented but I wanted to at least discuss the merits (if any) of 4-betting JJ in that spot.
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Jan 30, 2014 21:19
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Mind_Taker posted:Yeah I meant overcalling the 3-bet, the original callers probably wouldn't call a 4-bet. There are no merits. You aren't getting 3bet/flatted by a worse hand and you have no blockers (in fact you have blockers to a hand he might 3bet/fold)
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Jan 31, 2014 00:09
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How does one get good at NLH? I'm fairly new to the game; I've been playing for a little over a year. In that time I've read: Super System, Phil Gordon's Little Green Book, The Theory of Poker, Harrington on Hold'em Tournaments Vol. 1/Cash Games Vol.1. TBH, I didn't take much from the books, largely because I just didn't understand NLH very well (I still don't). (I'm starting too re-read them, and am understanding more, but a lot goes over my head.) I can consistently cash in my friends home game, but my online results have been mixed with big fluctuations (I play on Bovada). I don't multi-table and I play Micro stakes, $1 and 3$ Sit and Goes. I would describe myself as a TAG/TP player. About two weeks ago I turned $20 into $68 on Bovada, from (I thought) playing semi-well (mostly Tight/Passive, but Aggro with my good hands) making some unconventional moves here and there, and getting lucky when I needed to. Anyway, over the last two weeks I lost the $68. Other than some obvious mistakes, I didn't really change my game. I would lose, lose, win to break even, then lose, lose, lose, win, etc. As far as where I'm at right now I'd say I'm mostly playing just to play and see cards/hands, without much analysis during or post game. However, I am able to spot some of my mistakes here and there, as well as putting players on specific hands/ hand ranges at times. Some attainable, near term goals of mine would be to start multi tabling and start being more aggro/loose overall (stealing dead money more/more consistently; floating more effectively, etc.) Any other books you guys recommend? Online resources? Methods for improving? Any advice at all for a total scrub/donkey? I want to get good. I'm willing to put in the work, but I need a little direction. Most of the advice I've gotten from friends who know a little more than I do (but no where near as much as many/most of you, based on several pages of this thread I've read) say I'm too passive and not aggressive enough, and I would agree with them; I get I can't always just chill and wait for the best hands, but I really struggle with being aggressive or am mostly unable to recognize when I should make those moves. I'd really appreciate your help. Thanks.
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Feb 6, 2014 01:17
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You get good at NLH the same way you get good at anything. Get a lot of hands in, get a lot of studying in, be passionate about it and put the work in. As for your wins and losses, your sample size is certainly no where near significant enough to draw huge conclusions from. It's actually quite crazy how big the upswings and downswings can be - it's just a matter of understanding statistics. I don't have links readily available but I could dig some up if you are unable to find them on your own. "without much analysis during or post game" is obviously a problem in anything. You can't get good at a sport without analyzing what you're doing both during and before/after. You have to practice off the table, and while you're on the table you can't just click buttons -- it's an extremely mentally demanding game. If you're sitting there braindead, all of your opponents who are actively thinking and analyzing have a huge advantage on you. Multitabling sounds like a decent goal once you get comfortable enough with one table, but if you're not really watching players for reads and analyzing each hand you play (and the hands that your opponents are playing even after you've folded) then I'd suggest waiting until you've got that aspect down. As for the tight/aggro/loose/etc. discussion, most people suggest that playing pretty tight as a beginner is the best way to go. I think loosening up just a little bit can be good because it'll put you in more tough post-flop spots and force you to learn faster. I see it as a short-term losing strategy since you'll be uncomfortable playing the non-straightforward hands, but better for your game long term. If you really want to just jump to winning poker as quickly as possible then staying tight until you can improve is the best way to go about that. It depends what your goals are, imo. I always suggest people go search for something awful's own Jason Somerville on youtube and watch his Run It Up series. He does play really loose, and it's possible to pick up some tendencies and start doing loose/horrible stuff in the wrong spots by applying it incorrectly, but in terms of analyzing every single action it's the best content I've seen. I'm sure someone can suggest some more beginner-oriented stuff on video training sites or books or whatever though.
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Feb 6, 2014 01:26
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I'll post it in my log thread once I get feedback in this thread on this hand: Live $2/$5. Effective stacks are ~$700. Villain is nicknamed Rock, I've described him in the log thread but he is very stationy preflop, bluffy postflop to the point where it makes no sense sometimes (check raising AI on the river with air with only $100 behind into a $1K pot). I've also seen him overvalue top pair type hands by raising them on the flop, but if called on the flop then checking on the turn. He slowrolls people a lot and is generally not well-liked in the card room, if that matters at all. I have AJo in MP and raise to $20. Rock calls on the BTN, BB calls. Flop is 944r. BB checks, I bet $35 into $55, Rock raises to $130. BB folds. Given the description above, what do you do? I feel like all three options are viable here: 1. Fold, because we have ace high facing aggression and can likely find better spots. 2. Call, then call most turns and rivers (what cards would I fold to?) 3. Raise, potentially folding out a better hand like an underpair or maybe a 9 some small percentage of the time if he decided to "see where he was at". Or if he just has air, make him fold away his ~25% equity. Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Apr 10, 2014 |
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Apr 10, 2014 19:52
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Clear fold. Described villain could both easily have a 4, given his preflop looseness, and also be raising with pretty much any pair. You are out of position, and don't necessarily get him to fold his pair hands when you 3bet. Oh, and the pot on the turn is going to be 315 with 550 behind, you really want to be playing for stacks out of position here? I would probably check this flop vs described villain, planning on calling at least one.
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Apr 10, 2014 20:49
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I would normally c/c this flop heads up against this player with my actual hand, but with it being a 3-way pot with the BB I thought c-betting was better because I didn't want it to check through and give two players a free card. I think he raises a 4 sometimes, and sometimes just flats with a 4 and then raises turn. But if he did raise flop would he raise that big with a 4? I do think he could raise that big with any sort of pair though. What's your calling range on this flop given that he just raised? Pair of 9s or better?
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Apr 11, 2014 16:13
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Another live $2/$5 NLHE hand: Villain 1 is a middle aged loose retarded player. In one hand just a little bit earlier, he opened in EP, got called by 2 players. Flop came A high, he bet flop, a guy min-raised him, he shoved for like $1000 into a $200 pot. His opponent folded, and Villain 1 shows KK. Typically his opening range from any position is any two broadway, any ace, any pair, and any suited connector. Villain 2 is a competent player who can be aggressive at times, typically doesn't get out of line but he will squeeze light and semibluff postflop. He's a little too loose preflop (calling raises with almost any ace, suited or unsuited). Stacks are $800 effective with V1, $1000 effective with V2. V1 opens to $20 in EP. V2 calls $20 in MP. I call $20 with J T in the BB. Sometimes I'll 3-bet here, but I didn't want to play a bloated pot OOP against two guys who don't like to fold preflop, and I think my hand plays okay OOP.Flop Q Q2 (Pot: $60). I check, V1 bets $40, V2 calls $40, I call $40.Turn: 6 (Pot: $180). I check, V1 bets $90, V2 raises to $200. I...?I maybe could have led the turn, but after seeing a bet from V1 and a raise from V2, I think V2's range is very strong, maybe trips with a flush draw or better because he is aware of V1 being very sticky postflop and me still left to act.
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Apr 17, 2014 15:20
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3betting pre seems like a poor idea, with retard likely calling and loose player behind him overcalling, giving you a large pot out of position ws players who like to bluff with a hand that won't have good showdown value. Now on the flop, I really like a raise - no strength has really been shown and you'll take it down fairly often, often you'll fold out ace high and get called by pairs and can bet 8,9,K,A, any club, check J/T and bet river if it checks through, giving you like 27 cards on the turn that make you happy. Turn sucks because anything you do shows enormous strength. Depending on my image (mine is usually really crappy), I would probably just 3bet to 500ish, get it in, but it doesn't feel right. Flatting and check/calling river is pretty bad, but I suppose you can flat and lead river if V2 is cally/tilty, as he won't be able to fold a Q, but he'll probably check it behind. But if he's good enough to fold a Q to a river lead, ugh. I think it is a turn raise - I talked it over with some people, and what we settled on was, if we had TT, would we bluff raise the turn? And the answer was no, because V1 too often has a Q that he isn't folding. Next question was, is V2 predominantly raising hands that beat us? Again, probably not - he has plenty of smaller flush draws, and may occasionally have just the A . So if we wouldn't bluff raise and we aren't beaten by v2 more than 50% of the time, we should be raising.alternative line from my friend: i think folding is too weak i think calling gets us in lovely situations otr i think raising is too light so, maybe we just off ourselves
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Apr 17, 2014 16:11
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I thought about raising flop, but I thought I had good enough pot odds ($40 to win $140) and implied odds to just call. Again, I just don't know if V1 and V2 are folding enough to make a flop raise worth it OOP. I was thinking about it afterwards: how about a small raise on the turn to like $350 (even a minraise to $310), planning on calling a shove from V1 (who could shove with any Q or the naked A ), and folding to a shove from V2? A check/3-bet on the turn is extremely strong no matter the sizing, so if V2 shoves over it I can safely fold I think.
Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 17:13 on Apr 17, 2014 |
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Apr 17, 2014 17:08
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Mind_Taker posted:I thought about raising flop, but I thought I had good enough pot odds ($40 to win $140) and implied odds to just call. Again, I just don't know if V1 and V2 are folding enough to make a flop raise worth it OOP. A smaller raise looks stronger, you risk making a HUGE mistake when V2 goes all in with all of his continuing range because he'll have like 300 left in a 800 pot so why just flat OTT, and you still have to play the river if you do get called. 3bet/folding seems pretty bad. Also, a flop raise is probably not profitable by itself, but it gives you more profitable turns, because you can continue on so much and your hand is so strong against a lot of their continuing range (weak pairs)
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Apr 17, 2014 17:29
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I ran it and came up with:pre:Board: QcQs2c6c Hand Equity Wins Ties JcTc 44.12% 563 0 Ac*c,Kc9c,9c8c,9c7c,8c7c,8c6c,7c6c,7c5c,6c5c,6c4c,22,66,AcQ,AcK,AcJ,AcT 55.88% 713 0 If I raised turn to $350 and V2 ships, am I ever ahead? I just don't think villain is ever shoving with worse flushes. If he has a 9 high flush and gets cold re-raised (even if it's a small re-raise), I think he is either calling or folding with small flushes, probably calling if he has the A or Qx. The only hands that I am ahead of that he ships are probably AQ and KQ because he has the nut flush blocker/draw, and if called no matter what he still has outs.I guess the differences I see between raising to $350 and $500 are: a) $350 is better because lets me get off cheaper if he does go all in b) $500 is better because if he is semi-bluffing with the A or K, or he has a Q, he has to pay more to draw to a better flush/boatBut I'm having trouble weighing which is better. I agree with c/ring the flop though. By the way, in game I folded the turn. Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Apr 18, 2014 |
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Apr 18, 2014 20:36
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Mind_Taker posted:I ran it and came up with: I haven't done the maths, but I'm pretty sure that $350 still means you need to call vs that range given how huge the pot is. You also didn't give him any naked queens, or even KcQ, which I think he can have. Finally, you're ignoring V1, who probably goes broke with all his queens.
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Apr 18, 2014 21:06
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Pretty simple $2/$5 hand: V1 (~$400): Italian guy who is really tilted right now after getting "sucked out on" despite not really getting sucked out on at all, playing about 50% of hands right now. Usually slow plays bigger hands, e.g. limp-calling with KK, then c/c flop, c/c turn, donk river and a pretty safe board runout. Also generally plays draws passively. V2 (~$900): Middle aged man who has been pretty aggressive postflop with draws and big made hands, but doesn't really size bets well at all. He's not a drooler but he's got a losing image right now after getting stacked twice. I have both players covered, and have only shown down really good hands so far. 5 limpers including V1 in EP and V2 in MP. I have T 6 and check in the BB.Flop: 7 66 (Pot: $30)I bet $25, V1 calls $25, another player calls $25, V2 raises to $105. I look over at V1 and he looks like he is ready to shove. I fold. Thoughts? I generally lead out my strong hands from the blinds in a limped pot, but would a c/r maybe be better here? I thought I was up against some combination of draws, trips, and maybe like A7. I didn't really see a great option at the time, so I decided to fold after some thought.
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May 9, 2014 18:33
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I would have pushed, but I'm a bad poker player.
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May 9, 2014 18:49
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Seems ok. theres like 7 combos of better boats/trips and 5 of worse if they never play offsuit sixes. they also have to raise large with weak sixes and fds. but if they play hands like 67o 65o you can add 2 combos of boats and 3 combos of worse sixes. They could be playing things like A6o as well tho just as easily. If your read on v1 is that strong that hes ready to shove then he's probably really nutted with 77 or like 89dd or something or just tilted with NFD or nines or some garbage but I kind of doubt it. In normal circumstances I'd most likely just flat but I guess we can fold if v1's tells are that bad.
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May 9, 2014 18:57
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:Seems ok. theres like 7 combos of better boats/trips and 5 of worse if they never play offsuit sixes. they also have to raise large with weak sixes and fds. but if they play hands like 67o 65o you can add 2 combos of boats and 3 combos of worse sixes. They could be playing things like A6o as well tho just as easily. If your read on v1 is that strong that hes ready to shove then he's probably really nutted with 77 or like 89dd or something or just tilted with NFD or nines or some garbage but I kind of doubt it. I believe he might limp 65o, 76o, and probably A6o. V1's tells made me decide to fold, but supposing he didn't give off these tells and we decide to flat the raise how would you proceed on the turn and river (assuming V1 folds)?
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May 11, 2014 01:57
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Mind_Taker posted:I believe he might limp 65o, 76o, and probably A6o. I probably end up calling blank turns and hope to see a showdown but probably fold if he puts in a lot of action. It's obv going to be based on his timing while hes doing all this betting. People seem to know that they cant rip 200bb in with 65 here
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May 11, 2014 02:21
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Yet another Quack Poker episode is up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrdZMAXei3E. I'm always happy to receive any feedback on hands or the videos or anything else. Also, if you happen to live in Austin, I'm starting up a weekly poker game here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3032558&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=80#post429733053
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May 22, 2014 04:43
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OOP on the river when you're in a spot where if you check you probably have to call and vil is gonna have some equal % of bluffs and value when he bets to your river check, do you guys think that means you should always bet hoping for him to make a crying call? For example You have AK in co and raise and get called by reg on button (who has been 3bing or calling all of your co opens). Flop 7 TAx. bet/ he calls. turn 6 or J bet/ he calls. River 2x. If you check it seems like you need to call so shouldn't you just VB to get him to crying call sometimes with a worse ace or Tx?I guess this is just 100% player dependent i.e you need to know a lot about the button's tendencies? Most likely the answer is I need to do a bunch of hand vs range simulations and find out more what players stats mean in terms of what hands they can end up based on their numbers. And maybe on the board above most vils are gonna have more draws than medium hands so its better to check/hope for the bluff. But if you can think of another board where its more equal its really hard for me to figure out when I need to check/pray-call vs when to vb thin. AARO fucked around with this message at 04:36 on May 25, 2014 |
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May 25, 2014 04:17
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olin posted:OOP on the river when you're in a spot where if you check you probably have to call and vil is gonna have some equal % of bluffs and value when he bets to your river check, do you guys think that means you should always bet hoping for him to make a crying call? How often are you betting this flop? edit: I dont have an answer for this question either way, but that was the first thing I was wondering before trying to figure it out. TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 08:48 on May 25, 2014 |
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May 25, 2014 08:36
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In tournaments based off of the way people have been playing in the past few years, I would bet that river a large portion of the time and you're going to get hero'd by worse. There is a caveat of: if I think this guy missed his draw based off of his betting style, I would want to give him a chance to stab at it. I'm not great at cash so I don't have a strong opinion. I'm undecided between c/c and b/f.
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May 26, 2014 05:26
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in this specific example I actually don't see a ton of hands that can call us when we bet 3 times. we're probably just going to run into the nuts. but if we do check this hand we cannot check/fold. It's just too strong.
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May 26, 2014 14:54
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^That makes sense. Just check/call since we can't get enough of his value range that we beat to call us 3 times. His AQ woulda probably 3bet pre so we're basically hoping he has AJ/A9 or KT that hero calls. Basically the motivation for the question in the first place is that I keep value owning myself. TheAbortionator posted:How often are you betting this flop? I'm spewy so probably far too close to always unless btn has given me a really good reason not to. I'd c/f flop only with hands like 45 suited which have no outs unless I thought button was more spewy than me. AARO fucked around with this message at 03:52 on May 27, 2014 |
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May 27, 2014 02:47
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Two hands from live $2/$5 NLHE: Hand 1: Villain: We have a history together, he tries to bluff a lot, even in spots where he has absolutely no fold equity (e.g. going all in for $200 more into a $1000 pot on a missed flush draw). Despite this he still realizes relative hand strength and is a level 2 player (which is important in both hands), as he has folded and shown a weak two pair hand when draws completed in an earlier hand and he faced a bet. He's been running pretty good tonight. About $800 behind. I have him covered. 3 limps to me (including Villain), I have A A in the CO and raise to $35. SB and BB call $35. Villain raises to $155. Folds to me and I raise to $400. Folds to Villain who calls.Flop: A Q4 (~$880)Villain checks, I check. Turn: Q (~$880)Villain checks, I check. River: T (~$880)Villain checks, I bet $225. I haven't really seen him l/rr before, so I assume it's a pretty nutted range. Is my 4-bet sizing preflop good? I was planning on shipping most flops but I think I can slowplay this one as I rarely think he has flush or straight draws on this board given the preflop action. I want him to think I have like KK or possibly JJ and that I'm scared of the A (though I would never 4-bet this with JJ, not sure if he knows this), and I was hoping he would shove turn with his bluffs (which should include hands like JJ-). On the turn I still don't think I need to bet since he only has $400 behind. On the river I don't think he has an ace since my guess is he would have bet it to try to get value from KK, JJ, etc. since I think he thinks I am checking this river very often. So I thought I would put in a small bet (rather than all in) since I think he is folding a lot of his pair hands if I shove, and if for whatever reason he has nothing I think he is capable of one of his stupid bluff shoves that have no fold equity. Should I have just shoved at any point? Hand 2: Villain 1: Don't really know this guy, he's opened a few hands and c-bet and taken it down a few times. About $500 behind. Villain 2: Villain from Hand 1. He's about $900 behind now. I have both players covered. Folds to V1 in MP who opens to $20, V2 calls in the HJ, I call with T 9 on the BTN (thinking about 3-betting here, but I think this hand plays fine in position against two players).Flop: J 72 ($60)V1 and V2 check to me, I bet $45. Both players call. Turn: 3 ($195)V1 and V2 check to me, I bet $140. V1 folds, V2 calls. River: Q ($475)V2 checks, I bet $275. I thought the flop was a good hand to bet as I have a gutshot and a BDFD and no showdown value. I thought the turn bet would succeed a lot because if V1 had a pair of jacks or better he probably would have bet the flop, and if he had a flush draw he probably would have bet it too, so I think V1 is folding a lot on that particular turn. V2 could have a jack but I doubt he has a flush draw as I think he usually bets this on the flop. River I think is a clear bet because I beat nothing and he is folding a ton of better hands (namely probably almost all hands without spades in them). He's capable of hero-calling me here, and I think a bigger bet may have set off alarm bells in his head, which is why I decided to size it as a little more than half the pot as I think it looks a little stronger in his eyes. Thoughts on this bluff? Mind_Taker fucked around with this message at 23:22 on Jun 6, 2014 |
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Jun 6, 2014 23:19
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I think it's a good line for hand 1; the guy is aggressive and you tried to let him hang himself. It's not impossible to think his l/r was a bluff, and as you say, postflop he could put you on KK and try to take the pot away. By the river, I'm putting him on some sort of bluff give up, JJ, TT, and maybe KJs. It makes since that he'd be cautious with those hands, but might call a small river bet. Hand 2 seems okay as well, although I'd expect to be called a lot of the time. I think we get enough folds that it's marginally profitable for us to bet the river.
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Jun 7, 2014 18:55
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I don't think we can get the fold enough on hand 2. V2 ch flop with 1 person left to act and then overcalled. He could just be autopiloting with AJ like "well i didnt raise pre so i cant cbet" but I think most people shake that off on a board this wet. So really his most likely hands are bad jacks, but it's hard for him to call vs one raise with JTo (maybe) preflop. And like I said, he probably would have just bet flop himself if he had as strong as TP. The only things left are hands like 78, 88, 99, TT that feel "priced in" to call flop because they aren't smart. But any 7 is going to be part of a suited hand, so unless he has 78ss he's folding turn because he can't have one card flushdraws. So at worst he has JT (and maybe JT with a spade) and the rest of his turn calling range now has a flush and isn't going to want to fold. Even 78ss is just going to sigh and flick it in. As much as I love hossing it with the bottom of my range, I think it's just straight up unprofitable in this spot.
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Jun 8, 2014 08:33
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:I don't think we can get the fold enough on hand 2. V2 ch flop with 1 person left to act and then overcalled. He could just be autopiloting with AJ like "well i didnt raise pre so i cant cbet" but I think most people shake that off on a board this wet. So really his most likely hands are bad jacks, but it's hard for him to call vs one raise with JTo (maybe) preflop. And like I said, he probably would have just bet flop himself if he had as strong as TP. The only things left are hands like 78, 88, 99, TT that feel "priced in" to call flop because they aren't smart. But any 7 is going to be part of a suited hand, so unless he has 78ss he's folding turn because he can't have one card flushdraws. Thanks, he ended up folding in that spot but I wasn't really happy with that bluff for some of the reasons you described, and especially since we have some history together which I think would make it more likely to hero call me than a random dude. Two more hands: Hand 1 Villain: a middle aged Israeli guy, very loose (but not aggressive) preflop. Post-flop he can be more aggressive, as I have seen him c/r with a flush draw and no overs, OESDs, etc. Usually shows down his semi-bluffs. Overall he's not very good, plays way too much trash and pays off way too many hands. He has about $500, I cover. Button straddles to $10. 3 limpers (including Villain in the HJ), I raise to $60 with A J in the CO. Only Villain calls.Flop: 4 32 (Pot: $150)Villain checks, I bet $105. Villain calls. Turn: 2 (Pot: $360)Villain checks, I check. River: J (Pot: $360)Villain bets $200. I call. I hated my river call here, I thought I should have just shoved for his remaining $135, do you agree? I'm near the top of my range here and he's going to have a hard time folding a pair here, and he doesn't really have many hands that beat me. Also, I think he might b/c with hands like 55-TT even though any thinking player would know that I can't really be bluffing here. Hand 2 Villain: middle aged white guy, I have played tournaments with him before but not much cash. Overall he's a standard bad tournament regular, tight preflop from early position but looser from LP and the blinds. I didn't really remember his postflop tendencies to be honest. He has about $500 and I cover him. I have A K UTG and raise to $20. Only Villain in the BB calls.Flop: K J4 (Pot: $36)Villain checks, I bet $25. Villain calls. Turn: 4 (Pot: $86)Villain checks, I bet $60, Villain raises to $130. I call $70. River: A (Pot: $346)Villain bets $225. I call $225. Two questions: 1. Do you do anything differently on the turn? (fold or maybe shove?) 2. Do you shove river?
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Jun 13, 2014 19:38
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I would definitely shove in hand 1, and I would probably bet the flop a lot smaller, since you only have 3x the size of the pot and 3 streets to bet. Hand 2 I would fold the turn, river is a toss up between calling and folding, you don't really lose to much but you don't really beat much, I'd probably end up calling but its close.
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Jun 13, 2014 19:50
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If we think the guy in the spades hand thinks we are aggro he might be checking a lot of jacks planning to ch/c 3 streets. Would prolly bluff in that case.
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Jun 13, 2014 21:50
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Ranma posted:I would definitely shove in hand 1, and I would probably bet the flop a lot smaller, since you only have 3x the size of the pot and 3 streets to bet. Why would we fold the turn for a min-raise, but then, assuming we did call, why would we call the river when the only hand we beat now that we didn't before is KJ (and QT caught up)?
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Jun 13, 2014 23:21
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EngineerSean posted:Why would we fold the turn for a min-raise, but then, assuming we did call, why would we call the river when the only hand we beat now that we didn't before is KJ (and QT caught up)? On the turn, we beat no value hands, so if we are calling the turn it is because we believe villain is bluffing. OTR, if villain was bluffing on the turn he's continuing a lot of the time on the ace, so if turn is a call, river is also a call, plus OTR villain could be valuebetting a worse ace, whereas on the turn he cannot.
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Jun 13, 2014 23:46
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8 handed home game with players of a variety of skill levels. V1: Talented player, usually plays extremely LAG but recently has been toning it back a bit. Capable of big calls, has a wide opening range, probably continuation bets too much. Will attack weakness, knows that scare cards increase bluffing frequency. Has usually erred on the side of calling, but toned down a good bit lately. Occasionally takes very weird lines for value to induce. Can get aggressive in spots where range appears polarized with a merged range to induce light jams. Just had a conversation the night before with hero about calling down heads up match against V2 on JT526 with QT, where he said he had to call because V2 was good enough to triple on none scare cards, because he knows V1 gives more credit to barrels on none scare cards. History: tightish/ABC player opens in EP, V1 calls, hero calls, others fold. Flop 247, ABC checks, V2 bets 2/3 pot, hero raises 3x, ABC folds, V1 calls, turn 4, V1 checks, hero bets, V1 folds and says he folded a 7, while hero says he had air. V2: Also talented player, very loose preflop with raising and 3betting, good understanding of leverage, does not continuation bet as much as most players and occasionally checks back decent equity draws such as gutshots+overs or small flush draws to disguise. Has been 3bet isolating a couple loose/fit or fold players at the table and cbetting a lot to take it down. Won a large pot vs V1's 27o with aces on 257 by backdooring a straight and has been needling V1 about it. All 3 know about leveling and talk about poker together a lot. Stacks: Hero: $200 V1: $200 V2: $120 V2 straddles UTG, folds to V1 in the c/o who opens to $3.50, button flats, hero flats in the sb, V2 3bets to $12.50 (smaller than typical sizing for V2), V1 flats, button folds, hero flats. Thoughts: V1s range is fairly wide for calling here, especially given sizing. He will 4bet bluff hands like K3s and TT+, sometimes flat AK/AQ. V2 will definitely squeeze light here, but his sizing makes that slightly less likely. Flop: 379 ($41.50) Hero checks, V2 bets $24, V1 calls, hero raises to $58, V1 tank/folds, V2 asks for a count (about $120), tank/calls. Thoughts: On a not very draw heavy board, sizing is to threaten stacks on the turn, and I don't think we have to go any bigger. V1 can have 8T, 68, any 9 in his preflop range (which is a lot of gappers but mostly suited, ie 97s but not 97o), some sets. Turn: 5 ($183.50) Hero jams ~$125 I know I haven't said heroes cards. What, if any, should be in heroes range? 34s, 45s, 56s, 57s, 67s, 78s, 89s, 9Ts, J9s, A3s, A7s, A9s, JTs, Axs, A2s-5s, 64s, 68s, 8Ts, 33, 77, 99, TT+ For the suited cards, only turned draws? Thoughts on sizing?
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Jul 15, 2014 23:12
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What the hell are the blinds? .25/.50? That range seems reasonable but I would think you'd want to take out a ton of suited connector combos considering calling from sb and assuming you're sometimes c/fing gutshots and bottom/mid pairs. Hopefully someone better than me can comment. edit:sizing seems fine but interested to hear further discussion on this. are we planning on jamming virtually all turns unless we have a sc that doesn't turn a draw? can check/shoving be better for position reasons? I guess check/shoving will force us to turn a lot of our range you posted into a c/f range which I assume is why we'd rather 3bet small to be able to include those. Im rambling at this point and also bad but would love to hear more thoughts on this. Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 03:00 on Jul 16, 2014 |
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Jul 16, 2014 02:52
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