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AmnesiaLab posted:The point something like a 3BB raise with a hand that has good implied odds is to build a pot that you can feasibly get all your chips in with. If you have seven limpers, you're looking at 7BB to the flop. If you hit your hand, you're not getting your whole stack in often because of the same low stakes mentality you mentioned. You limit your implied odds by NOT raising because you can't maximize what you win by just limping. At the same time, if you raise too much, you lose your implied odds because you make the SPR too low. quote:I wasn't talking about premium hands. I was talking about big card hands that are not made. Hands like the aforementioned ATo. You're likely to win a small pot or lose a big one. It's a terrible multiway hand, and you're almost always going to be behind if significant money goes in unless you hit broadway. i mean, just to be clear, are you actually raising like 60% of hands even after a bunch of limps in the table you're describing? i often make this play with weaker pocket pairs (like 77 and below) at softer tables so i can get stacks in on 2 streets. i pretty much never will with something like JTs though when you want the SPR to be as high possible. re: limping and getting stacks in...i mean if 6 people limp including BB pot is 6bb, you flop a set and bet the pot and 2ppl call, pot is 18bb. turn you bet 15bb, if someone has anything they'll raise to like 50bb and you can get it in. nothing wrong with better more than the pot either. i haven't been in too many (maybe even any) games where people were able to limp regularly without being iso'd and average stacks were >150bb.
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Dec 7, 2013 05:52
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Dr. Eat posted:i mean, just to be clear, are you actually raising like 60% of hands 60% of hands looks like this 22+,A2s+,K2s+,Q2s+,J2s+,T3s+,95s+,85s+,75s+,64s+,54s,A2o+,K2o+,Q5o+,J7o+,T7o+,97o+,87o you may want to reconsider your percentages. by a lot. for comparison this is a reasonable iso range of 16% 66+,A7s+,A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo
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Dec 7, 2013 15:53
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Not remotely anything like 60%, no. If you look at Moose's illustration of 60%, you can see what I'm talking about is nowhere near that. I might raise 20% of hands. Probably not even quite that at a table full of stations, unless they're the type that will let go on later streets. I feel like that's a fair range to be raising when you're having to rely much more on showdown equity than anything else; small raises with speculative hands that can flop big, and larger raises for hands that prefer a low SPR. Pocket pairs by default, opening up from there based on the table. Suited connectors down to 45s and suited one-gappers down to 75s depending on what kind of fold equity I have on later streets. Some of these tables have the best breed of fish, who just have to see all the cards come out, but will fold on the river once they know they haven't hit anything. They're pretty much the only people you should be 3-barreling at 1/2 live. If some of those are around, I'll raise a lot wider, because they're gonna come along for the ride so long as you don't blast them off the pot. I've never seen one of those types who wasn't completely transparent, and they love to fold the river after sticking around for the last card. That's just for the small raises at a table of stations. Other raising hands I raise to a normal size, or a large size for premium hands, as we talked about earlier. AmnesiaLab fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Dec 9, 2013 |
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Dec 7, 2013 23:31
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"At tables like this, I raise small (online sizes like 3.5x) even behind limpers with suited connectors, pocket pairs, one-gappers, and hands I feel like speculating with." so..yea that sounds like a range of like 22+/87o+/T7s/75s+/54s+/all suited hands with a Q+ in them. so remove the suited Jx and Tx. that is probably around every other hand. i stuck it in my phone and got 40%, which is a high number. amnesialab wasn't suggesting a normal iso range and that was what i was wondering about. fwiw in good games you will be +EV playing almost every hand. nothing wrong with playing 100% vpip vs the right kind of fish HU or going crazy aggro with a big stack in a MTT when other people have ICM concerns. the iso range MID posted is solid 
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Dec 7, 2013 23:44
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Dr. Eat posted:"At tables like this, I raise small (online sizes like 3.5x) even behind limpers with suited connectors, pocket pairs, one-gappers, and hands I feel like speculating with." so..yea that sounds like a range of like 22+/87o+/T7s/75s+/54s+/all suited hands with a Q+ in them. so remove the suited Jx and Tx. that is probably around every other hand. i stuck it in my phone and got 40%, which is a high number. amnesialab wasn't suggesting a normal iso range and that was what i was wondering about. I don't know where you're getting 87o+, suited kings, and suited queens from that. I'll limp behind limpers with offsuit connectors. If there are enough limpers, I may limp a suited king-rag or queen-rag, but that is not at all something I raise. They play like poo poo post-flop and don't have enough multiway equity to want to be building a larger multiway pot. I would rather be playing 87o than Q2s any day. If I'm not in position with a bunch of limps in front, I'm just folding trash like that.
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Dec 8, 2013 00:25
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You said yourself you may speculate with a suited-king. I mean, I don't really ever limp behind either hand, but why are you happier with 87o better than Q5s or K2s? If you make top-pair with 87 it usually won't be good, if you make trips you have kicker problems, and one of the straights it can make is the low (on JT9, lose to two other straights and lots of hands are live against you) so you'll usually get felted in the latter two scenarios. With Q5s you're drawing to third nut-flush, you won't have kicker issues when you make trips with your 5 (and will have outs if someone has a boat). Also you have more showdown value with the high-card/if you hit top-pair While I said earlier one of my problems with 87 is it can make third nuts and this may seem to contradict my endorsement of a hand that will make the 3rd nuts, there are just way more combos of worse flushes/FDs/other worse hands that will go broke vs third NF (pretty standard to stack-off with lower flushes; but decent chunk of time when you get it in with 9hi or 8hi flush you're drawing dead or villain has a live FD) than will get it in bad vs 87 on a 77K52r board or T95Jx. Dr. Eat fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Dec 8, 2013 |
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Dec 8, 2013 02:37
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Dr. Eat posted:You said yourself you may speculate with a suited-king. No, no I didn't. I said pocket pairs, suited connectors, and suited gappers. I never raise limpers small with a suited king or offsuit connectors at a table like this. That would be setting money on fire. I may limp along with limpers, but that's it. Dr. Eat posted:I mean, I don't really ever limp behind either hand, but why are you happier with 87o better than Q5s or K2s? If you make top-pair with 87 it usually won't be good, if you make trips you have kicker problems, and one of the straights it can make is the low (on JT9, lose to two other straights and lots of hands are live against you) so you'll usually get felted in the latter two scenarios. With Q5s you're drawing to third nut-flush, you won't have kicker issues when you make trips with your 5 (and will have outs if someone has a boat). Also you have more showdown value with the high-card/if you hit top-pair The main reason is because flush boards are about the only thing that small stakes 1/2 players are wary of. They are generally oblivious to straights unless there are four to a straight on the board, and they think they have the nuts any time they end up with two pair. Since straight boards tend to lead to opponents hitting two pair often, straights are one of the best hands for stacking these kinds of players. A queen high flush can make some money hitting up smaller flushes, but you're usually gonna need them to hit a flush as well to make any money. I'm not overly concerned about how pairs play with either hand because we're at a table full of calling stations who are going to let us get to showdown cheaply unless they have something better than us. Sure, Q5s is better if you hit trips with your five. It's worse if you hit trips with your queen. I don't particularly care either way since we're talking about players who are easy to play against. They're usually gonna give us enough help in reading them that we're making the correct decision most of the time even if we find ourselves in a tougher spot. Regardless, I'm not raising either hand, so we're usually seeing small pots with them unless we hit the flop hard enough to want to built a pot since we're generally the only player at this kind of table betting any sort of reasonable amount.
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Dec 9, 2013 01:26
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WPT Regional Tournament $1650 Main Event. Villain seems pretty tight but I'm not sure, I haven't seen him show down anything yet and I've only played like 3 orbits with him. He's like a mid to late 30s white guy. Don't really have any other reads. I have 55k, he has like 45k. Blinds are 500/1000/200. I raise to 3000 with A8o. He calls. Flop comes A75   . I bet 3500. He calls.Turn comes 8 . I bet 7500. He calls.River comes 5  .Is this a good spot to c/r, or should I just bet? I feel like if he has an ace, he's probably betting it so I won't lose value there. Also I feel like since most draws missed (only 64 and 96 got there, all flushes missed), he might take a stab at it if I give him an opportunity to bluff and he would otherwise just fold them if I bet.
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Dec 16, 2013 22:51
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If you think he's probably going to just give up, I'm more a fan of c/c. Might be a little passive though. He had 65, didn't he?
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Dec 16, 2013 23:39
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What are your positions at the table? His range is probably a lot different if you two are the blinds than in you raised under the gun and he called in mid position.
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Dec 17, 2013 13:11
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Yeah it's BvB, I'm SB he's BB.
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Dec 17, 2013 15:32
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So b/f or c/c. We shouldn't be b/calling or c/fing readless. I think I like a bet/fold. You can get called by any A, a lot of 7s, and most people aren't bluff shoving often. Also a ton of the hands you beat don't value bet but often call (all of his 7s). Of course, combinatorially he's gonna have to have more draws than Ax or 5x so maybe c/c. AARO fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Dec 25, 2013 |
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Dec 25, 2013 13:30
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Thanks for the feedback. He checked back A9 which almost certainly would have called a river bet, but it least it gave me some info that he was a super tight dude. Here's an unrelated spot in a cash game: 2/5 NL 9 handed. $200 splash the pot promotion, which meant that the house added $200 to the pot preflop for this one hand. Stacks are mostly around $500-700, one or two short stacks. I am sitting with $1300 and the big stack at the table covers me and is a very competent player. Most of the other players are fishy. 1. Straddles are allowed from any position in this card room. Do you straddle to $10 to be last to act preflop? In this hand, I was in MP with 5 left to act after me (HJ, CO, BTN, SB, BB). Competent Villain was in the SB. I didn't think about straddling, but it seems +EV to do it in this exact situation. Additional straddles are also allowed (so another player can double straddle to $20, someone else can then triple straddle to $40, etc). 2. I have ATo and it limps to me (not surprising that everyone limps here, getting 40:1 on a limp). I raise to $150, planning on folding to some bigger shoves and calling smaller shoves. Should I just limp here as well, or is AT good enough to raise? Also what is a good raise size here given this weird situation? I don't think many people are going to slowplay big hands here because it's somewhat likely that it's going to limp around with literally any two cards for each player given the pot odds, so I think my AT is probably ahead right now, but I have 5 left to act. I looked around to see if anyone was giving off any live tells but I couldn't find any. This type of spot is not going to happen often but I want to hear some of your thoughts.
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Jan 2, 2014 21:50
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Mind_Taker posted:Thanks for the feedback. He checked back A9 which almost certainly would have called a river bet, but it least it gave me some info that he was a super tight dude. For sure straddle. I would raise AT, $150 seems fine
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Jan 3, 2014 18:42
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So after not playing online since april I have jumped back on the wagon, results have been pretty swell so far. But heres a hand I aint sure about. This is only the 10th hand I have played with villain, but he bought in for full and has played 2 hands both with a raise so I he is probably not a complete drooler. http://weaktight.com/6394697 I feel like at these stakes cold calls from reggy looking players is almost always gonna be AK, AQs, QQ(discounting most combinations as most people just get it in)-1010 and maybe KQs. I was also tempeted to call and see what he does on the turn, but I knew I would probably just be burning money most of the time, and probably not folding after putting in that much of my stack. Is folding here ok or just way to nitty for drooler stakes? I know its hard to make sets, but his range is going to be even more weighted to them as I am blocking most of best semi bluffing hands (good bye AQd, KQd, 2 combos of KQs. TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 19:21 on Jan 13, 2014 |
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Jan 13, 2014 18:25
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As played I think I fold the flop unless you have a specific read to do otherwise here. You are either way behind, or ahead by not much. Maybe he goes crazy with 88, 99, or AQo here, but I don't really think that's a reasonable assumption. He also 3xes your raise OTF which is pretty big. Also I 3-bet a bit bigger preflop. He 3xes it, gets a caller, and you make it 10x. I like closer to 12x here, so maybe $1.90-$2.00. I also sometimes check this particular flop if the opponent is competent and/or aggressive because his 3-bet calling range hits this board pretty good (though I don't mind b/f for a relative unknown). Also by checking flop, you allow him the opportunity to bluff with his random missed hands that would have just folded to a flop bet. This is something to keep in mind, though I'm not sure if it's superior to the b/f line for this particular opponent. If he is more of a stationy or passive type then I much prefer b/f. If he has complete air and bluffs you then it's well-played by him, I'm just not giving him enough credit to think he can bluff this board because it hits his range better than your range.
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Jan 13, 2014 19:40
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http://wt.ag/1atcB7y Is this acceptable pre flop? I get that I am not supposed to play fit or fold in 3 bet pots and almost always don't, but the guy that limped was a 90% vp whale, and the guy that 3-bet me here (laying a pretty awesome price too) had yet to 3-bet me yet over 90 hands so I figured him for an incredibly narrow and incredibly nutted range. So I get to play a hand with decent express odds, pretty huge implied odds and given that I am against a retard and a very narrow nutted range I am going to get to play the hand almost perfecty (folding if I dont flop 2pair + or a massive draw) On the other hand flatting j9s oop kinda sucks, but again I feel position isnt all that important given our opponents.
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Jan 23, 2014 21:15
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Positional advantage is still really important when you are playing a fish. And I would fold to the first raise but once we call we prolly should call again
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Jan 23, 2014 22:08
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fold pre. i guess call the 3bet because squeezer will be so wide here. blah how can you play this stake the numbers are so awkward...
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Jan 24, 2014 07:12
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Dr. Eat posted:blah how can you play this stake the numbers are so awkward... haha I thought the same thing when I was trying to read it because I thought it was .01/.02 at first and I about vomited.
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Jan 24, 2014 17:03
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BBs are BBs are BBs.
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Jan 24, 2014 17:07
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LorneReams posted:BBs are BBs are BBs. what is $1.20 then (the unit of measurement that this hand uses)
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Jan 24, 2014 17:16
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EngineerSean posted:what is $1.20 then (the unit of measurement that this hand uses) I feel like I'm missing something obvious, it was to call a 7.5BB raise (from a 3BB raise)?
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Jan 24, 2014 18:03
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Dr. Eat posted:fold pre. i guess call the 3bet because squeezer will be so wide here. blah how can you play this stake the numbers are so awkward... folding pre seems extremely nitty and terrible.
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Jan 24, 2014 18:30
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Blinky2099 posted:folding pre seems extremely nitty and terrible. u gonna snap off T8s too? hard for it to be extremely anything unless you're snapping off 68s without a second thought
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Jan 24, 2014 18:41
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:u gonna snap off T8s too? hard for it to be extremely anything unless you're snapping off 68s without a second thought it's a 3x with another fish limping and basically never folding behind. it happened to be 3bet this one hand but like 90% of the time is going call/call. 68s doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me edit: but on the looser end sure Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 18:50 on Jan 24, 2014 |
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Jan 24, 2014 18:45
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Blinky2099 posted:it's a 3x with another fish limping and basically never folding behind. it happened to be 3bet this one hand but like 90% of the time is going call/call. 68s doesn't seem unreasonable at all to me edit: but on the looser end sure it's pretty difficult to play those hands OOP, I would rather put them in my 3betting range and call with suited aces/connectors/broadways
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Jan 24, 2014 19:10
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LorneReams posted:I feel like I'm missing something obvious, it was to call a 7.5BB raise (from a 3BB raise)? Well I guess if you can divide $1.20 by 16 cents instantly while playing then these are good stakes to play! Gonna play some NL39 later if you want to help me out with the math for that game, thanks in advance.
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Jan 24, 2014 19:16
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EngineerSean posted:Well I guess if you can divide $1.20 by 16 cents instantly while playing then these are good stakes to play! Well, 1.60 divided by 16 cents would be 10. 120 by 16 would be about 8 or so. Pretty easy.
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Jan 24, 2014 19:18
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EngineerSean posted:Well I guess if you can divide $1.20 by 16 cents instantly while playing then these are good stakes to play! As an aside, I never understood why the local tourny I play goes 100/200 to 200/400 to 300/600 to 400/800 to 600/1200 skipping 500/1000.
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Jan 24, 2014 19:21
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Hey guys it's not specifically a critique thread but please critique/discuss any of my hands that I have posted in my log here: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3601746. Or just post about your live poker experiences or whatever. I was hoping to generate some discussion in that thread but it's been just me posting hands and results. LorneReams posted:As an aside, I never understood why the local tourny I play goes 100/200 to 200/400 to 300/600 to 400/800 to 600/1200 skipping 500/1000. Local tournament structures are by and large terrible. The jump from 100/200 to 200/400 is something our room does for its weekly $200 tourneys and I hate it, especially with 10k starting stacks. MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:it's pretty difficult to play those hands OOP, I would rather put them in my 3betting range and call with suited aces/connectors/broadways I tend to agree with this, though I still prefer 3-betting suited connectors in this spot too.
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Jan 24, 2014 19:36
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So there was some discussion about a poker game in the most recent episode of the Korean game show "The Genius" that I thought people here might be interested in. You are playing Indian Poker/Blind Man's Bluff with two community cards. There are 40 cards in the deck, 4 sets of 1-10. So counting cards is possible. If you fold 3 of a kind or a straight you lose 10 chips. If the cards are a tie, the pot is carried over to the next round. If the players are all in, this means that the next round is dealt with you remaining all in. The loser of this game is eliminated from the competition. You and your opponent each have 15 chips. The ante is 1 chip from each player. You are considered a big favorite in skill over your opponent. The first hand the community cards are 1 and 8. Your opponent shows a 2. He pushes all in. Do you call?
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Jan 24, 2014 20:15
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LorneReams posted:As an aside, I never understood why the local tourny I play goes 100/200 to 200/400 to 300/600 to 400/800 to 600/1200 skipping 500/1000. haha yeah this definitely drives me batty
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Jan 24, 2014 20:19
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Elysium posted:So there was some discussion about a poker game in the most recent episode of the Korean game show "The Genius" that I thought people here might be interested in. How do streets work out or do they deal both community cards at once? So the reasoning is that he would only push all in if you yourself had a 2 and then the subsequent hand would be a 50/50 shot? I would also say that if the opponent is unskilled he would possibly consider doing this with you showing a 3. I would base my decision on how long it took for the person to act.
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Jan 24, 2014 21:15
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MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:it's pretty difficult to play those hands OOP, I would rather put them in my 3betting range and call with suited aces/connectors/broadways I toyed with the idea of 3betting here but the reason I didnt was... I wasnt worried about getting squeezed myself as the BB had yet to 3-bet over 90 hands. I didnt want to 3-bet myself as the fish is first to act before the original raiser so if I 3-bet, the fish is almost always going to call and the reg is going to end up getting good odds and the ability to play ip vs a huge fish and probably find a call with a lot of hands. (this assumption turned out to be kinda wrong though) If the fish was behind the original raiser then I would have been alot more in inclined to 3-bet. Dr. Eat posted:blah how can you play this stake the numbers are so awkward... I havent played online in about 7 months when I was playing NL25 and NL50 when I was feeling frisky. So now I am playing just slightly below that til I get in the grove again, but the NL16 tables seem to have way less regs then the NL25 ones so I might just stick around here a while longer. TheAbortionator fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Jan 24, 2014 |
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Jan 24, 2014 22:01
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Community cards are already dealt before any betting takes place. Opponent has previously tried to negotiate playing with fewer chips (5), in order to increase luck/make the game faster, as he feels he is at a skill disadvantage. You tried to negotiate playing with more chips (25). It was settled on 15 chips. Opponent pushes as the opening bet, after some short thought.
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Jan 24, 2014 22:04
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Silly question, for the new years, there was a local tourny of Crazy Pinapple which I have never played before. If everyone is all-in preflop, do you discard before you open your cards? There was a small discussion about that.
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Jan 24, 2014 22:05
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Elysium posted:Community cards are already dealt before any betting takes place. Opponent has previously tried to negotiate playing with fewer chips (5), in order to increase luck/make the game faster, as he feels he is at a skill disadvantage. You tried to negotiate playing with more chips (25). It was settled on 15 chips. Opponent pushes as the opening bet, after some short thought. If dude is sophisticated enough to push all-in this hand, what makes me think that he won't push every hand? I know I'm going to win or tie this hand, I don't know where I'll be for the next fourteen hands. I call.
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Jan 24, 2014 22:31
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EngineerSean posted:If dude is sophisticated enough to push all-in this hand, what makes me think that he won't push every hand? I know I'm going to win or tie this hand, I don't know where I'll be for the next fourteen hands. I call. The key distinction being, if you tie, you then (essentially) flip a coin for who gets eliminated.
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Jan 24, 2014 22:58
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| # ? May 12, 2024 18:06 |
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LorneReams posted:Silly question, for the new years, there was a local tourny of Crazy Pinapple which I have never played before. If everyone is all-in preflop, do you discard before you open your cards? There was a small discussion about that. You discard postflop right? Would assume you still do with cards face up
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Jan 24, 2014 23:02
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