Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Locked thread
Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Anything I should have done differently? Only read I had was that it's a $2 + $0.25 game, so most players are pretty bad, with myself included. I knew nothing about the individual players.

http://weaktight.com/917619

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 03:23 on Mar 23, 2009

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
http://weaktight.com/923730

What parts of this did I gently caress up? No reads on players. Micro-stakes, as you can tell.

I was really only afraid of the straight, which could have been a possibility. After he pushed I figured I couldn't get away from it since it wasn't much money.

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 18:01 on Mar 24, 2009

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

INTJ Mastermind posted:

Micro-stakes idiots will shove on you with flush or straight draws. They're gambling on folding equity, and on their 8,9 outs.

Does that mean I did nothing wrong in that situation, or just that I was right to call the all-in but should have played differently earlier, or...

Edit: When the short stack went all-in and the 2nd player called, I figured I would try to price him out of the draw. I can't really see what I did wrong at least in that situation now that I look back, unless I could have somehow assumed that someone must have had trips/straight already. Then again, I don't really know what I'm doing.

Edit: And another hand...

http://weaktight.com/923755

I probably should have bet when I hit two pair but I wasn't sure if he had trips... (or maybe folded when he re-raised, but it was such a tiny raise). Any other thoughts?

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Mar 24, 2009

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Edit: wrong thread

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Apr 6, 2009

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xczBwcTFxcbNwMTExcfNzIjFxMPGx8PA

Where did I go wrong? Should I have gotten out when he reraised? Should I have flat called the turn (he only had $5.80 left)?

For these kinds of stakes I feel as if there could have been plenty of situations where someone commits with top pair and can't get away from it... but I kinda feel like I was being that player making that lovely move here.

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I just figured the whole "don't bet based on your hand quality" rule should have been applied at the time, but considering I'm playing microstakes vs players probably even more horrible than me there's no way in hell that betting more here would have set off any flags (especially considering I had only raised probably twice from UTG/UTG+1). I think I should stop taking rules so literally all the time.

Thanks for the tips... noted.

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I guess you guys can tell me if I'm doing this right or if I'm still loving something up. I bet 3x preflop (should I 3.5-4?), bet nearly pot-sized when the straight/flush draws hit........ ?????
Hand 1
http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xczBwcTFxcHFwMTExMbMx4jFxMPGx8PA

Edit: Lots of AA apparently. How about here? I called not knowing that there was a 3rd person in the pot (I know, dumb mistake, not paying attention) but I didn't think anyone was shipping if they had a king, especially first to act. I can't even imagine any of these players doing it, or.. anyone for that matter.
Hand 2
http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xczBwcTFxcbNwMTExcDNwYjFxMPGx8PA

Edit2: Alright, how about this hand? Just call the raise preflop? Fold? After this guy ships I can't see any way I'm folding for $1 more or whatever, but maybe I shouldn't have reraised in the first place. It just sucks knowing so many people limp preflop with poo poo (no way to expect KK from him) and so many people raise preflop with A8, KQ, etc
Hand 3
http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xczBwcTFxcbNwMTExcHExIjFxMPGx8PA

Edit3: And here are some assorted hands that I could use tips on. Thanks to everyone that has helped me so far. I don't expect people to post advice on everything but I do appreciate any comments very much.

Hand 4: Straight draw + flush draw possibilities... I'm pretty sure this is very standard but I'm not totally positive about it/bet sizes. Players spew a lot after checking the flop down but I can't imagine it actually being profitable with 10d Jd on the board to try slowplaying.
http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xczBwcTFx8LMw8TExMHNzIjFxMPGx8PA

Hand 5: Anything wrong here? Maybe should have bet the turn?
http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xczBwcTFx8LMw8TExMLExojFxMPGx8PA

Hand 6: Don't have much to say here. Thoughts? Bet sizes? I can't imagine slowplaying is incorrect here, but maybe betting on the river would have been better?
http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xczBwcTFxcbNwMTExcHGwojFxMPGx8PA

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 01:01 on May 5, 2009

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
From up a bit...
http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xczBwcTFxcHFwMTExMbMx4jFxMPGx8PA

Anything I can do here rather than be raising 4-5x preflop? Can I get away from that flop on microstakes?

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Spasms posted:

I'd probably call. He either sucked out on you with KQ, has a set, or most likely is shoving with a busted flush draw with a K, Q or mid pocket pair. Again this is really read dependant on how agressive he's been. It looks like you have AK, AQ or a mid PP though so from his perspective he should be able to get you to fold.

He wouldn't be able to have a mid pocket pair and a flush draw, but this does likely seem like a missed flush draw or a turned/rivered two-pair. Most players would probably reraise to get draws out if they had a set, no?

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
As posted in BBV, http://cakepoker.com/en/HandHistory/Default.aspx?Hand=xc3GxcTFx8fMx8TExM3Fx4jHwMPGwcE%3d

Aside from the initial raise, every single move in this hand is terrible, right? QQ should have reraised to just over a dollar, AKs should have... called???, and JJ should have folded?

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 19:26 on Jul 9, 2009

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

M E A T Y posted:

QQ 3bet should be bigger, AKs 4betting is fine, shove is ok, JJ at a normal level you should most likely fold here, but at .05/.1 i wouldnt rule out a call

Are you still 4betting regardless if the button calls QQ's 3-bet or folds to it?

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
If any winning NL50+ players want to learn FR SnGs for some retarded reason I'm willing to trade coaching

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I haven't seen derk in months :(

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
What is he trying to represent here that makes any sense at all? Seems awful to me...

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Can't comment on MassRayPer's opening range because I'm not sure what's correct, but the post-flop logic seems really, really flawed. Why do you think he's folding here 100% of the time when he doesn't have an ace? That seems like really bad level-1 thinking to me and I still don't understand what you're trying to represent at all. If MassRayPer is thinking about your hand range whatsoever he should know that you (almost?) never have an ace here.

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

dsquash posted:

I think donk bets can be incredibly profitable in certain situations just because so many regs at this level haven't figured out how to deal with them. This isn't one of those situations because you can never put Turkey on a very strong hand. He can't have a 4 and if he had a strong Ace he would have raised preflop.

This sums up the entire play, like I said a few posts up. Turkey, what are you representing? Are you thinking about what you're representing whatsoever? You can't have a hand here, and any thinking player will realize that.

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I'm pretty sure moving up to NL200 after he just failed miserably at taking a shot at NL100 is a bad idea

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Spasms posted:

http://www.pokerhand.org/?5528239

No stats on utg but the isolator was a super mega nit which is why I flatted (6/4/2 or something). I 3bet KK about 95% of the time but this is a spot I decided to flat.

Given the retarded overbet can we fold or do people actually make this play with something other than AA?

folding is really loving awful imo

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Mr.Showtime posted:

This had makes me wanna play more poker cause lmao.

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
"but i doubled up this hand. clearly it was the right decision."

That sounds like it's a huge part of your argument. Just sayin'.

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Moose is giving you excellent advice that you should take

You should also try to answer his questions because your thought process does not make sense without having those answers

also, "My nightmare hand here is any combination of one each of queens, tens, and nines" why are these "nightmare hands" and why does it matter? Come up with a range of all of his possible hands, not just hands that you randomly assign "NIGHTMARE HAND" to that have no significance other than that they consist of some of the hands that beat you. I think it's stuff like that which you continue to say that really has no relevance (another example Moose already pointed out, which is you "feel good" because you've been playing against him for 4 hours, yet without having reads and being able to assign ranges that's completely useless)

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 04:45 on Nov 28, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

srsly posted:

You're implicitly putting him on a single pair of cards, when we should always be putting our opponents on ranges of hands. Tsk.
ahahahahaha says you, who has posted a poo poo load of times about your hand and still yet to define a range other than "for some reason he folds his good hands and calls with his bad hands"

srsly posted:

I am way behind:
Call: 35%
Fold: 25%
Raise: 40%

I am way ahead:
Call: 50%
Fold air: 40%
Fold made weaker hand: 10%

stop pulling numbers out of your rear end. define a range, use pokerstove, and do real calculations.

srsly posted:

It's the safest way for me to win chips at that point this hand
"safe"? "win chips"? you're looking to make the most +ev decisions every single time you have one to make. it has nothing to do with "safe", or trying to collect the pot now rather than later. quotes like these are what make you look like you have no idea what you're talking about (and you don't, so it's fitting)

srsly posted:

Erm no. I've been sitting at the same table with him and chatting and observing his play/mannerisms for 4 whole hours. I feel confident that I can outplay him oop. No random clicking.
except you've provided very little useful information in terms of forming a range based on your read of how he plays. so your "confidence" means nothing.


your thought process is sooooooooo bad and so far away from even beginning to understand the advice that others are giving... you'd probably be better off completely forgetting everything you've learned about poker and starting over because your logic is seriously that bad

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 11:07 on Nov 28, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

srsly posted:

newsflash, whether or not my opponent folds is not my decision to make
this has nothing to do with anything i said. why do you keep bringing up retarded poo poo like this that has nothing to do with anything



also lol at "should i fist-pump fold and applaud as he scoops the pot" what does that even mean? applaud as he scoops the pot? are you using some lovely form of sarcasm that implies check/folding is bad because "WE'RE GIVING IT TO HIM!!!"? because that's what it sounds like. "newsflash", you should be happy about folding "as he scoops the pot" if it's the correct decision to make based on his range/your hand/the odds you're getting. but considering you still haven't even come up with a range, and use random as gently caress percentages that don't actually apply to any real amount of hand combinations, you aren't really in a position to make that decision

i don't believe you when you say you understand why check/folding river is best based on your horrible logic and atrocious, made-up statistics you pulled from your rear end, but if you say you understand then good job!

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 12:48 on Nov 28, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

srsly posted:

I'm sorry for being unclear. I thought context provided ample explanation as to what I was saying. *explains* See? Not meaningless.
ok yes, I see that you are at least attempting to make a range, for one situation, in which he's beating you at that point in the hand. good job. it's the only progress you've really made in all of your rambling, and I misunderstood why you were bringing up those hands. it's really hard to understand you with your strange poker terminology embedded into pages of inapplicable poo poo spewing out of your mouth.

as it's been suggested a million other times, this is what you need to be doing for all streets when you're making your decision, and not just hands that beat you for this one decision. why? because you want to find out how you think he responds to your actions and how much equity you have vs his range. you want to know whether check/folding river is the right decision based on his possible holdings. you want to have a good guess at this information at every action, changing it based on the new information you have received. making up percentages with a LONG series of "let's say..." statements only hinders your ability to do this.

srsly posted:

Except I didn't say that. Reading comprehension, please.
oh well you said you knew or at least acknowledged that your river shove and your logic behind it was horrible, so I guess I wrongly assumed that you saying you understand that actually means you can comprehend the advice that others posters gave you. looks like I gave you too much credit for your "reading comprehension skills":smug: see I can do it too

Bashez posted:

For real though getting made fun of is a pretty good way to learn.
this is very true. umike is responsible for poo poo talking the horrible sng/mtt thought processes out of my head 2 years ago. moose is also a great poster now so I'm glad he's not perma'd!!!

MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:

Besides after you lost 3k on a really tiny roll playing MSPLO and moved down, which really isn't listening to advice at all.
haha oh, it's this guy. IIRC I posted laughing at him/looking forward to him busting, he stays stubborn and actually thinks he's a winning player, and then he busts literally within a day or two. :eng101:

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 21:12 on Nov 28, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:

Please give him a range for turn bet, turn bet/raise, turn bet/call, and river call

why would you do that? let's say he's 10% to fold if we raise. and 60% to call if we shove.

and 25% to breathe heavily if he has an ace.

my math is fine, thank you.

:anime:

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 01:46 on Nov 29, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Hand 1

SB $4.59
Hero T:d:9:d: BB $4.00
UTG $12.49
CO $7.79
BTN $4.65

5-handed NL4, just sat down

UTG calls $0.04
CO folds
BTN raises to $0.16
SB folds
Hero? Just sat down. I figured if I call, UTG will call as well, which is ok for us?? Should I be 3betting instead? Folding is the worst of the 3 options, right?

Hero calls
UTG calls

Flop (~$0.45ish) K:c:9:c:4:s: I check with the intention of calling flop if BTN cbets, but probably shutting down on almost any turn. Maybe we could call turn on a blank?
check/check/check

Turn J:d: Thought about betting. Jacks are pretty much the only hand that beats us here I guess UTG could easily have a king, better 9, set... but we're almost definitely ahead of BTN unless he hit a jack. Betting would be purely for protection though (from aces, PPs, club draws [but they'd probably have bet by now]), and not for value (edit: maybe we should be betting for value vs flush draws and 98/97?)
check/check/check

River 3:s: I don't think anyone is calling with worse if we bet multiway. I check, and would check/call vs either player, since I expect us to have the best hand almost always but unable to get worst to call. Bluffcatching, I guess, hoping they feel like stabbing river.

check/check/check
----------------------------------------
Hand 2

SB Hero A:c:T:c: $3.93
BB $13.35
UTG $7.53
CO $3.97
BTN $4.50

UTG folds
CO folds
BTN raises to $0.12
Hero? I flatted instead of 3betting to keep his worse aces and tens in, but I'm not sure if this is correct.

Hero calls
BB folds

Flop: 5:s:2:c:7:h:
chk/chk

Turn: 6:s:
Hero checks
BTN bets $0.12
Hero? He checked back flop, which to me means he either hit a set, has a weak pair (33, 44, 66), or maybe something like Ax?? I figured he'd be cbetting this flop with all of his air, so I'm a bit scared by his flop check.

Check/raising seems like it could be an option, but I think we only really fold out 33/44/66. I call on the offchance we have the best hand right now + our possible 6 outs, but this might be a mistake?

Hero calls

River: 9:s:
Hero checks

we could lead? The 9 could be a scare card for him, but I don't see him folding a set. I guess the only hands that I can put in his range that play like this are sets, 33, 44... so yeah, I take that back, there's no reason why that should be a scare card. Leading accomplishes nothing: I think check/folding is the best option.

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 23:34 on Dec 8, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
I'm not sure what the correct decision is in hand 1 but I feel like we should be
- betting slightly bigger on the flop
- if you're betting the turn, bet bigger than 10bb into 27bb

I don't actually know what to do on the turn though. You cbet in a multiway pot with an A high board and he calls with one behind him -- it seems like his range would be weighted heavily towards flush draws and worse aces.

He could have misplayed sets, but let's assume he raises those on the flop.

I really don't think he's calling with virtually any pocket pairs here.

There aren't any straight combinations that make much sense with the FD on the board. He'd also have to be calling pre with some very low suited connectors.

I feel like the line should be:
Cbet bigger
check turn, probably fold to a bet? Seems bad if he's ever betting weaker aces here, but I think his flush range way outweighs his Ax and other random bluff range

If we get to river we should still check/fold, I think. His worse aces without a spade aren't betting, and I can't really find a range of hands he'd be bluffing us with given the previous action.

Hand 2, yeah that's good.

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Yeah, with the 60bb stack I was originally thinking we should just bet a little bigger flop/bet a lot bigger turn, committing us. What if we have a 100bb stack here though?

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Hand 1: http://weaktight.com/4175011

Had a bunch of notes on villain but he left before I could copy them down for this and I don't know where they're stored. The only one I remember is something like "limp/called Q3o UTG".

I'm guessing villain has a range mostly weighted towards 2 pair and sets. He's been playing very loose passive preflop. Do we just fold to this minraise?

------------------

Hand 2: http://weaktight.com/4175021

Villain has opened a lot of hands pre over a few orbits.

Not sure about my bet-sizing. I probably give up on most turns, but since we get a gutshot + FD I decide to barrel. I'm not sure if he calls two streets with pocket pairs lower than queens, but it's a possibility. Give up, or fire river? Sizing?

------------------

Hand 3: http://weaktight.com/4175025

Same guy as before. In hand 2 I checked river and he showed up with 55. He has continued to be opening extremely wide pre.

I 3bet pre for value because he has bet/called a little wide on a small sample of occasions.

I'm not sure why I bet so much on the turn. I think his range on the turn is AK-AQ, sets, all pocket pairs, 76, 65, 54, flush draws.

I have no idea how to play in these spots. If I chck turn, he can bet and we have to call. We then probably have to call most non-heart rivers. If I bet turn, I guess we're bet/folding since his range crushes ours?

River I assume we check/fold all day -- aces got there, hearts got there, and we certainly don't get value out of worse.

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 06:06 on Dec 13, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Thanks for the advice, guys.

http://weaktight.com/4175219

Villain is 31/28 over ~28 hands, been opening a lot late position. I haven't been 3betting pre much, and have not 3bet him at all.

I think pre and flop are standard.

Turn we gain a nut flush draw. After his flop call I think he can have hands like AT-AK, JT, T9, KQ, 88-AA, 98s, sets, maybe some pairs worse than 7s but probably not. Betting can get his PPs 99 and lower to fold, and maybe some of his Tx hands.

River I'm not sure if we can get folds. Pot is $3.66 and he has $2.14 left. I think river should be c/f.

Everything seem alright?

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 10:22 on Dec 13, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

ZeroStar posted:

If we're giving up blank rivers I would rather bet bigger on the turn, and if we are shoving blank rivers it is better to go smaller on the turn, probably even smaller than you bet like .60. That way you keep in more weak hands that can fold on river, and you give him a worse price on his river call which could lead him to fold more often.

I don't know much about these players' tendencies to fold anything, so as played I think you are fine giving up. Overall the bet tiny turn, shove river plan might be best because he can conceivably float flop and turn with no pair hands like KJ, AJ, AK, and even weak pairs like 88-99.
Ok, the sizing makes a ton of sense. Never really thought about it like that.

Some more hands:

-----------------------

Hand 1: http://weaktight.com/4175383

cyyp is 72/0 over like 70 hands
ihadtrips is new to the table
limper 23/10 over 100 hands

Should I be flatting and essentially set-mining pre? Seems like 3betting is overrepping our hand here.

How is my bet-sizing here? The money can easily go in by river, so I feel like betting smaller to induce/get worse hands to call is the best option... but after looking at the hand it seems like we'll only be letting draws get in for cheap, and all other hands would be calling/getting it in anyways. Thoughts?

------------------------

Hand 2: http://weaktight.com/4175390

Villain 27/12 over 50 hands. Can we get away from this? His sizing is really loving weird.

------------------------

Hand 3: http://weaktight.com/4175395

UTG 30/11 over 53, hasn't shown down much.
BTN is new to the table

What the hell do i do here? I was a little scared of UTG having AA after that limp/call a 18x shove, but obv not folding. Maybe I should have just raised again pre. I have no idea how to assign a range postflop. I assume he has 99+ after he calls flop but I don't loving know. Turn I figure maybe JJ QQ AA, but I think AA shoves by now, and maybe QQ. Maybe he has some poo poo like AQdd, or maybe some other AXdd. River I feel like we're only beating QQ at this point and I don't understand how anything else plays like this that we beat and is also calling, so I check behind.

----------------------------

Hand 4: http://weaktight.com/4175401

Villain 30/23/4.8 over 74 hands, hasn't spazzed postflop

My turn call was to try to bet him off overpairs on the river but looking back I think that's loving stupid because he probably check/calls river always unless he's barreling overcards randomly, in which we have the best hand anyways.

As played, the river bet/timing seemed like a blocking bet. I figured I could get at least Ts/Js to fold river, and certainly all of his non-spade high PPs. Does this seem reasonable?

Made the sizing smaller to look stronger + save some money when he just shoves over or calls or whatever.

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 12:55 on Dec 13, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Bet flop. As played, turn bet could be like 25-30, but it seems okay.

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Mexal posted:

No. But by looking weak on the turn, we can't bluff the river if we wanted (villain dependent as we have no information on them).

By looking weak on the turn, we can also value bet non-spade rivers, which occurs a lot more frequently.

Maybe I'm missing something, but your logic seems poor and results-oriented.

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 01:51 on Dec 20, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Mexal posted:

Ok. So you're fine with his line? That's how you would play it?
What the gently caress are you talking about? This has nothing to do with what I said. Read the post.

Mexal posted:

I understand why people slow play, I just don't agree with it, especially at that level where most players are passive. It's generally unnecessary and I feel you're either leaving value on the table or allowing the villain to catch up cheaply.
I never disagreed that slowplaying the flop here is bad. You're just dodging my comments showing how your logic is wrong.

Also: Not only do we get called wider on non-spade rivers, but we can bet/call when he decides to bluff due to us "looking weak."

Your turn logic seems to be entirely based on the fact that the river was a spade, which is obviously a horrendous way to review a hand. It's the equivalent to suggesting "fold KK!!" because they posted a hand where villain had pocket aces.

Zerostar's post ^^^ is the reason why people (including me) suggested to bet more on the turn. NOT because of how your perceived hand range changes. However, if we assume villain is paying attention to our bet-sizing, your decision-making is still backwards for the above reasons.

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 02:10 on Dec 20, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

discstickers posted:

1-3 local casino, this is the 4th hand of a new game, so no reads. Effective stacks are $200.

I'm dealt A:c:J:c: on button.

UTG+1 limps, CO raises to 16, I call, BB calls, UTG+1 folds.

Flop A:d:K:c:9:d:, BB checks, CO bets 16, I call, BB folds.

Turn J:d:, CO bets 50, I call.

River 10:s:, CO pushes. I ...
Try answering these questions before reviewing what other people say they would do.

- What is your reasoning for your turn play? Not saying calling is definitely bad, I'm actually not sure if getting it in here is correct vs an unknown (can anyone else comment? raising turn seems to overrep our hand. AJ is probably the very bottom of our raise range? Sucks getting it in vs AK/AA/KK/99, and everything we beat probably folds), but it's good to spell out your reasoning. Edit: Pretty sure fold>call>shove. Raising doesn't make sense for the reasons I give a few posts down.

- On the river, what kind of hands do you think he has? He's betting what, about 120 into a pot of ~170-180? It should be an easy decision that you can make based on what you think his range of hands is vs the odds you're getting. Try to work this out on your own. (What % chance you think you have of calling and winning vs pot odds)

In my opinion, we should call turn like you did, fold every river if villain shoves, value shove blank rivers if checked to. Anyone else agree with this?

As played, it's obviously a snap fold. He has you beat like 95% of the time here.

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Dec 21, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS
Edit: nothing to see here!

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Dec 21, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Dr. Eat posted:

Yeah 100%, not sure why you spoiler-tagged it heh.
Spoiler-tagged to make the point of trying to pick apart his own hand before looking at others' opinions, not because I was worried about it being completely wrong.

discstickers posted:

A shove keeps us from having to make a decision on the river.
This is a really bad reason to shove in this case. If we shove he plays pretty much perfectly against us. A huge majority of his calls will have us beat, we almost certainly can't fold out better, and worse is almost certainly folding (one-pair, draws)

I originally said I thought it was close between calling and raising but now I definitely think raising is horrendous and the worst option here.

discstickers posted:

In my experience at these stakes, AA or KK will very rarely bet that flop, especially with someone behind and a potential caller - the games are just way too trappy. AK will be more often, but also rare. 99 will probably bet because it hits so much of our range. AQ/AT/A9 bet that flop. KQ will bet with diamonds. Connected diamonds will bet. Underpairs will most likely check. I don't think QQ bets.
Readless I wouldn't completely count out those hands. I do agree that mid-strength hands are betting flop more frequently (obviously) but after the turn barrel, you should probably start weighing his hands heavily towards monsters. Mid-strength hands are less likely to barrel turn, but it's still very possible.

discstickers posted:

In retrospect think the turn call is marginal. I have four outs to a likely winner (excepting AA or KK), so I'm really calling 50 to win 250 (16*5 + 50 + 120 behind). He could also be bluffing. A shove keeps us from having to make a decision on the river.
As mentioned before I think shoving is actually the worst option. Folding turn and calling seem close. If we call: on wet rivers we have to fold, on dry rivers and he A. checks - we are almost definitely not getting value from worse, or B. bets - we are almost definitely behind

discstickers posted:

The villain was very LAG. Next hand he stacks two players with KQ vs QT vs a ace-high flush draw on a Qxx board. He proceeded to bluff off $500 over the next hour.
Exclude this information and try not to even think about it. At the time of the hand you didn't have this information. All it's going to do is gently caress up your hand-review

Also the stuff that spasticmoose mentioned about you making too many large assumptions about the pot odds you're getting.

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 20:25 on Dec 21, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Mind_Taker posted:

$1/$2 NL Cash at my local card room. I have about $550. Villain is in MP with about $500, so we're both super deep right now. He's young and seems relatively competent with bet sizing and aggression, and has actually shown two bluffs, one he showed after he won a decent sized pot with J4o, and he was caught bluffing once with QJ on an ace high board with no Q or J.

I have A:d:10:h: on the button.

2 limps. Villain opens for $11. One caller in the CO. I call from the button. One of the limpers folds, the other calls.

Flop: 10:c: 8:c: 6:c: (Pot: ~$40 with rake and jackpot taken out).

Limper checks. Villain checks. CO checks. I bet $20. Limper folds. Villain raises to $60. CO folds. I call.

Turn: 5:h: (Pot: ~$160)

Villain bets $110. Hero folds.


After it gets checked to me on the flop and I am pretty sure I have the best hand so I lead out for half-pot, should this bet be bigger?

Villain's flop check-raise is weird. I think most decent made hands other than the nuts is leading this flop. What does he have here that would do this? I decided to call and evaluate the turn because his line is really weird at this point. If this was a more passive player I would be turbo-mucking this hand because it would scream strength, but he has been aggressive.

When he 2/3 pots it on the blank turn I am still confused, but since we are so deep I can't see continuing to the river because I am likely to have to play for pretty much my whole stack, so I decided to fold.
Folding flop seems easily best.

He's semi-bluffing at worst and his range has a lot of equity vs our hand. We have to fold a ton of turns, and even when it bricks and we can call, the best we're hoping for on the river is chk/chk if he gives up on a missed draw.

As played, if we're calling his raise flop we can't fold this turn IMO (anyone disagree?) The 5:h: is not a complete blank but it's close to best-case.

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Dec 21, 2011

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

MY INEVITABLE DEBT posted:

Dr. Eat posted:


Assuming we get called in two spots pot is ~150 we have 200 behind, we've definitely committed ourselves to the pot if turn bricks which I'm not a fan of deep but oh well, definitely for value.
I don't know why you think this?? We're definitely not committed in any way.
You don't think we're committed to calling turn if it's a complete blank?

LOTL what's with your hand? idgi

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 10:58 on Dec 22, 2011

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Blinky2099
May 27, 2007

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS

Opposite posted:

and I reraised him with thinking that I had high card at that moment

Why did you feel this? You need to try to assign a range of possible hands that he could have. He's not going to just have any random 2 cards in the deck when he calls preflop, checks flop, and then bets turn when checked to. There are hands that he is much more likely to have than others.

You then also have to consider what your bet does against that range.
- Does it actually get draws to fold? No.
- Does it actually get pairs to fold? Almost definitely not.
- Since you think you're ahead of his range of possible hands (you're probably not), will you be extracting value out of worse hands (worse "high cards")? Almost definitely not.

So all you're doing with this bet is donating him money when he has a hand, and then getting him to fold his worse hands that you'd beat anyways (except for his small equity of hitting a pair on the river.) This is a very poor play.

You should try to have all of this decision-making process in your head when playing, or at least while reviewing. It's important to make a range to see if you're ahead or behind, but you also need to think about how he reacts to your bet in each type of hand he could have.

Blinky2099 fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Jan 20, 2012

  • Locked thread