The No Limit Hold'Em Critique Thread

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MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

Mind_Taker posted:

I don't like bet/folding here at all. The villain might perceive A as a bad turn card for your range because it is an ace and because it completes a flush and a straight draw, so I think he may bluff you a lot and raise your turn bet.

I think against competent villains you can check/raise very often with success, because as mentioned the A is a perfect card for him to try to steal the pot. Against looser opponents I think a bet/call and reevaluate the river is probably best because they could still call you with random two-pairs, pairs + FD, pairs + SD, etc. Remember you have a non-trivial chance of filling up on the river, so I can't dump this hand quite yet.

lol "random villain is going to interpret your 2barrel on a super wet board as weak and bluff raise you!!!"

this is totally wrong also we have top set. while this might be a good spot to raise it's not a great turn card for all of his range and what's he going to bluff you with, a complete air?? 89o??? nothing needs to bluff.

you need to just bet/call turn. he can have stuff like QJ with the Qd that just presses raise on turn because derp derp my equities. ch/r is a huge mistake and is going to enable him to completely control the hand when he chs back literally every worse hand. there's no hand for him to "take a stab" with.

bet/fold is a giant mistake because we have somewhere around 9 outs to a boat and we're going to be getting about 3 to 1 when he raises. The pot odds aren't right but when we do boat up we're going to get paid off and depending on how he plays river and the card that comes we can fold sometimes.

# ¿ May 11, 2011 18:43

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 00:20

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Baddog posted:

Yah, i think dr. eat's opponent might have really thought his statement was binding.

I've heard different rules about what you can say, I think it depends on the room. If the guy doesn't say exactly "I call", I don't show my cards until the dealer tells me to...

Basically this. People say a bunch of dumb poo poo during poker hands so I just let the dealer make mistakes for me.

# ¿ Jun 8, 2011 11:12

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vase and ashtray posted:

I was more meaning; don't we want the MP-guy to come along as well as the villain?

The shove seems to isolate here, whereas a call is passive and welcoming. Obviously, the risk is that if scare cards (particularly Ds) fall on the turn, it's possibly harder to extract max-val.

If we had like a set here then this logic makes sense but we have a combodraw. Our maximum equity is realized when we get to see the turn and the river. If we get it in on the flop with ~45-50% equity or whatever it's because we're seeing both turn and river. We don't want to flat and need to bink the turn. We only hit our draw about 25% of the time when we only see the turn. Now if we had like ATdd I like flatting because there are a lot of turn cards (including ones that hit us) where villain will keep betting and our overcard probably isn't good a lot of the time when we rr flop and get it in.

So basically you're saying we should flat to keep MP in sort of like a trap, but we don't have a hand yet and it's not advantageous.

# ¿ Jun 28, 2011 20:37

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JCarver posted:

people turn their hands up live if you pay enough attention. phil ivey once told me that a well known pro i was playing with was bluffing if he was riffling chips a certain way with his left hand. he was right. how people look is such an important piece of the puzzle and changes the correct answer dramatically.

You can't keep track of everyone like this though, can you? With a table of randoms do you just pay the most attention to the most active people?

# ¿ Jul 10, 2011 05:38

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Ranma posted:

2/5 NL, although this is the last in a round of straddles so really 2/5/10. I am in the SB with ~2000, old asian (OA) is in BB and covers, tight guy (TG) is in the straddle. OA and TG are both very tight, OA prides himself on big folds, ie folding trips on a 3flush board in an unaggro pot to a 1/2 pot river, fold sets, etc. OA opens extremely tight preflop, standard live nit but reads hands well.

Thoughts? Abuse?

TG's range doesn't his this board as hard as you think, the best he can have is like AQ maaaaybe. And his range is a lot wider since he straddled and there's already a caller and he's got position. For the most part I agree that he has one pairs in his range, mostly stuff like AQ, but even if he has KQ and AQ he can still also have QT TT 22 and some very good combo draws occasionally. If he can't have 2p or sets, we raised way too small. We bet 85 he raises to 170 and we make it 295??? we're giving him like 5 to 1 for no reason, he's never finding a fold there. Now if we make it like 400 I think we get the result we want and we can easily set up turn bet and river jam and we don't give him any room to "minraise for information" or whatever he is doing. I'm not positive what you mean by "setting it up like I want to get stacks in." I don't think the tight asian guy has a multi street plan when he minraises flop on the wettest board ever, so he's not really thinking about our multi-street plan of getting stacks in. I think we need to just raise bigger on the flop if we're raising, or call flop and ch/r turn. I'm not sure we planned out what we are doing on later streets and different textures, we just kind of said "hes weakish, I have a flush draw, I will bluff". Maybe I'm wrong though.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2011 21:59

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olin posted:

It's a just about an exactly break even call on the turn but as you said he's folding if the heart rolls off on the river.

Hand 1: 22.984% 21.99% 00.99% 300 13.50 { 9h4h }

We cannot fold the turn. We bet 300 into 700 he minr to 600 so now there's 1600 in the pot and it's 300 to call. We're getting 5.3 to 1 so we need 15.9% to call. That's a pretty solid expectation. Also if we get to a showdown it fucks up our image excellently and we probably get paid more. This is assuming he never has a draw and he's never calling if we bink river. Can't fold now.

# ¿ Sep 15, 2011 18:27

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what the hell call instantly

e: i hope you folded because that'd be hilaaaaaaarious

MY INEVITABLE DEBT fucked around with this message at 06:20 on Oct 30, 2011

# ¿ Oct 30, 2011 06:16

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mt1 posted:

Obviously my first instinct is to snap fistpump call, but I had to think about it. Im not too worried about V1, he has AA/AK. I'm worried about V2. Dude never has K6/T6/QJ/KK, slim chance he has KT. That gives him TT a lot of the time, and KT rarely.

The dude sat and read the paper for 15 minutes instead of paying $3. He's a nit. Any young guy I snap there, but how many 60yr old grinders are capable of making a move there?

It doesn't have to be "a move?" He can have AK KQ KT AA. He only has a "slim chance" to have KT because you said so, not because of any real thing. He also doesn't have to cold 3b jam a huge amount on the flop with the nuts, he could flat sometimes. He could flat AA and AK pre. It's not good but he can do it. I'm sure he had TT though or this hand wouldn't even have been posted. Don't forget that there's 9 combinations of KT and 3 of TT. Even if he plays KT only half the time and never has anything but KT and TT it's a snapcall.

"Guy who reraised him showed AK and V2 got mad, saying if he kept playing trash like that he'd go broke." you really think a guy like this is an "old grinder?" He's loving 60 and playing 1/2 get the money in.

# ¿ Oct 30, 2011 18:54

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discstickers posted:

1-3 NL at my local casino

I'm in the CO with TT. BB has been aggressive.

UTG+1 makes it $12, folded around to me. I call, folded to BB who makes it $30. UTG+1 calls. I call.

Flop is TJK rainbow. BB bets $30, UTG+1 folds. I raise to $130, with about that much behind. BB pushes over the top (has me covered).

I...?

you call instantly and it's not even close

e:

teppec is slightly off. It's really unlikely he's 3betting QJ but KQs is possible. So we're looking at JJ QQ KK AA AQ AK for his 3b range. QQ probably doesn't rejam flop. Against his range that most definitely jams flop we're doing very well. If we add KQ we're doing even better.

Board: Ks Jh Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 48.189% 47.52% 00.67% 56457 792.00 { KK+, JJ, AQs+, AQo+ }
Hand 1: 51.811% 51.14% 00.67% 60759 792.00 { TT }

This is mostly due to the vast number of combinations of AQ (16) vs the combinations of sets (3 each). This is certainly the way I play this flop because theres a lot of bad turns for us and the same range that gets it in on flop is getting it in on blank turns. Also once we raise there's $250 in the pot and once he jams there's $380 in the pot and we're getting 3 to 1. Now if we know for a fact he never 3bets AQ which i seriously doubt because you said he was aggressive (even though it's not the best spot to 3bet) our equity doesn't suffer that much. This is because AA makes up the same number of combinations as KK and JJ combined.

Board: Ks Jh Td
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.879% 56.87% 01.01% 20268 360.00 { KK+, JJ }
Hand 1: 42.121% 41.11% 01.01% 14652 360.00 { TT }

Of course there's always a small chance he spazzes out with QQ or has KQ or something so this hand is a pretty standard raise flop/get it in. And we're absolutely NEVER folding getting such a good price. We only need about 26% equity to break even on a call.

MY INEVITABLE DEBT fucked around with this message at 19:53 on Nov 21, 2011

# ¿ Nov 21, 2011 19:45

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discstickers posted:

So you should only ever make that play with AA or KK? Won't your opponents know you always have AA or KK if you do that?

Am I saying I'd always make that play or even with a high percentage? No, I'd pick my spots. Would I do it again against that villain in that position? No, probably not.

Why wouldn't you do it again now? And no, you can probably include AK and QQ in that range and maybe JJ depending on how the table reacts. Maybe AQ is a good 3bet, we don't know because you barely told us anything about the table. The range isn't really the issue as much as the atrocious sizing. Also don't give your opponents credit for knowing poo poo at live smallstakes.

It's pretty important to know why you would/wouldn't play this the same way and what "picking your spots" entails besides "lookin at my cards and thinkin IS THIS MY SPOT"

# ¿ Nov 23, 2011 17:43

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srsly posted:

Thanks for analysis. I shipped the river, he instacalled, and mucked when I turned over the ten. I think he might have muttered something about a 9 as he got up to take a lap around the room before rebuying.

I'd rather hear what you think you were doing rather than what actually happened.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2011 08:15

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srsly posted:

Shipped hoping he folds, but also knew I beat hands in his calling range.

My river decision is between shipping and check/folding.

But if I don't go all-in, I might as well open fold the river, because there is no possible way he is checking behind that river. He is shoving any two if I check. So the question is do I have pot odds against the proposition that he (a) calls, and (b) with a hand that beats me. The answer was yes.

Move down. "So the question is do I have pot odds against the proposition that he (a) calls, and (b) with a hand that beats me. The answer was yes." this doesn't mean anything. Please stop saying meaningless strings of words and then saying "The answer is yes" afterwards.

Also I'd be very impressed if you could even come up with a range of hands that he calls with that beats you that represents a meaningful proportion of his overall range, enough so that it's both better to shove the river and that there's few enough "any two cards" that he shoves that we shouldn't check/call. The answer is no.

# ¿ Nov 25, 2011 19:39

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Crazy685 posted:

Im trying to get the logic here... we check here if we believe he is shoving with any two, or a hand worse than ours (likely a 9) but we aren't shoving because it is killing our value, right?

Sorry if this is basic, Im just trying to figure out the logic here.

It is a little counter intuitive because we always hear about making our hands easier to play or whatever, but basically yes.

We're trusting our read to be correct (even though its a little crazy) and if our read is that he shoves any 2 and his range is worse than our hand we should always check/call. If we shove into this same range we're never getting bluffed at by his bluffs and everything worse than us is probably folding while everything better calls. Everything better is jamming as well mostly but by removing his chance to bluff we own ourselves.

# ¿ Nov 26, 2011 03:24

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srsly posted:

This is precisely why I bet the flop. I had the best hand, and I got called by both of the other players. I got money in with an equity edge.

I know it looks bluffy, yes. That's why I can make the play, and that's why I near doubled-up on this hand. Does he make the bad turn call if I had checked the flop? No. He thinks that I'm buying the pot the whole way through and his 9 is good.

I think he raises the flop with AT or KT at least. My nightmare hand here is any combination of one each of queens, tens, and nines.

# ¿ Nov 28, 2011 02:16

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They are conflicted because you are conflicted. Are we bluffing or valuebetting? We can't be doing both, he's not folding better and calling worse at the same time. You will also observe that you apparently aren't really sure what a "slight equity edge" means since most of the times we bet in a WA/WB situation our equity is most definitely slight. You really have very little clue of what WE are trying to do, much less what we want villain to think we are trying to do.

"I was certainly planning ahead -- I knew when I made the turn raise that I was folding to a reraise, and collecting chips if he folded. In the back of my mind I know I'm very likely shipping the river if he calls."

Okay fine but do you know why we are raise/folding turn? Is it because we are bluffing and want him to fold or because we are expecting his worse hands to call and better hands to raise? Obviously we win the pot if he folds, but do we want him to? Why are we shipping the river if he calls? Which rivers are we shipping? Why some and not others? You say you don't think the outcome means it was the right decision but you keep analyzing the hand with information you wouldn't have had during the hand like "This is precisely why I bet the flop. I had the best hand, and I got called by both of the other players. I got money in with an equity edge."

Also this is ridiculous: "Yeah I'm oop but I've been playing with the guy for about 4 hours and I feel confident. I'd do the same thing with a 5." You feel confident about what? About randomly clicking buttons because you've played with him for four whole hours? What are you trying to do? You haven't settled on whether we are vbetting or bluffing, so please pick one.

Also move down and stop posting words that don't make sense thanks.

e: oh yes and i can't decipher what you are trying to say when you say your nightmare hands are "one each" of QQ TT and 99. there are 3 combinations of each of those hands after card removal.

MY INEVITABLE DEBT fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Nov 28, 2011

# ¿ Nov 28, 2011 04:11

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

Using big words does not a good poker thought process make. Also would you like to play heads up?

I know it's hard to admit that you are wrong but wow you really don't like it. Have you ever listened to anyone's advice in pitr? Besides after you lost 3k on a really tiny roll playing MSPLO and moved down, which really isn't listening to advice at all.

e: ~Ignoring you now~

MY INEVITABLE DEBT fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Nov 28, 2011

# ¿ Nov 28, 2011 19:12

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srsly posted:

Ah the good old days.

I'm still just curious about singular bet intent.

Just that it's actually pretty impossible for him to call worse and fold better simultaneously? Please come up with some actual 2card hands (such as Ace and King or Ace and Ace, AK, AA you know like that) in a range of hands that might behave this way. Please. I would absolutely love to find out about this magical impossible bet and implement it into my game.

e: if you are referring to the turn where he can call things with equity (draws) and fold made hands your bet might make a modicum of sense. see i can use big words too. The problem is the number of actual hands he has in his range where he is drawing vs the number of hands where he has something. He's never folding a better hand when we raise on the turn. How can he? Also for him to call any draws which are few and far between as it is, he has to have something like QJ or 78 which is too stupid to realize that calling turn is a pretty big mistake. Even if we assume he calls these hands 100% of the time a raise is suicidal. Just because it worked this time it's not some genius play because you were bluffing and happened to be called by a worse hand. I 3barrelled 55 the other day on J74K4 and got called by 33. Was I valuebetting? No, I was bluffing and he happened to show up with a worse hand that time. This is sometimes referred to as valuebluffing. It is an accident.

On the river there is no range you can assign him where he is folding better hands and calling worse ones. Please give him a range for turn bet, turn bet/raise, turn bet/call, and river call. If you dont know what I mean by assigning a range, open pokerstove and start clicking hands you think he can have, then copy paste the hands. Like this: KK,AQs+,ATs,JTs,J5s,T7s,KTo,Q6o,J7o,96o,86o

MY INEVITABLE DEBT fucked around with this message at 00:21 on Nov 29, 2011

# ¿ Nov 29, 2011 00:09

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I wish he would come back and regale us with more tales from his dictionary

# ¿ Dec 1, 2011 09:18

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Dr. Eat posted:

Most live players aren't even aware there is a rake much less how much it is so don't factor that in when you do your sizing.

"After I called the raise I was just hoping to fill up" yea don't do this when you start a hand with 60bb, you have to get it in here. If you are peeling to catch 3 outs then move back down to 1/3.

If you think we're drawing to 3 outs to fill up move down please

# ¿ Dec 13, 2011 02:57

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Mexal posted:

You have to bet that flop. Turn bet is too small as well. You're betting 20 into a 48 pot. You look weak as all hell.

Looking weak is not the issue here. We have top set we are trying to look weak.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2011 20:49

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Mexal posted:

Not on a 3 spade board without a spade.

???? how does this affect anything? We gonna get bluffed off of top set on the turn??

# ¿ Dec 19, 2011 21:43

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discstickers posted:

1-3 local casino, this is the 4th hand of a new game, so no reads. Effective stacks are $200.

I'm dealt AJ on button.

UTG+1 limps, CO raises to 16, I call, BB calls, UTG+1 folds.

Flop AK9, BB checks, CO bets 16, I call, BB folds.

Turn J, CO bets 50, I call.

River 10, CO pushes. I ...

I think we can fold turn. His CO raising/cbet/bet big on turn range 3way on this board is really strong like AA KK AK AQ 99 and the occasional diamonds, I can't really see enough worse hands in his range to call. The worst hand that we can hope he has here is like KJs and there's only 2 combos of that. so 1 combo of AA 3 of KK 6 of AK 8 of AQ and 3 of 99 makes 13 combos we lose horribly to and can make big mistakes on the river against and 8 combos (AQ) we beat now but has equity especially if he has the Qd.

MY INEVITABLE DEBT fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Dec 21, 2011

# ¿ Dec 21, 2011 19:26

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discstickers posted:

In my experience at these stakes, AA or KK will very rarely bet that flop, especially with someone behind and a potential caller - the games are just way too trappy. AK will be more often, but also rare. 99 will probably bet because it hits so much of our range. AQ/AT/A9 bet that flop. KQ will bet with diamonds. Connected diamonds will bet. Underpairs will most likely check. I don't think QQ bets.

This board is pretty scary, villain would have to be an idiot to check AA and KK 100% of the time.

quote:

In retrospect think the turn call is marginal. I have four outs to a likely winner (excepting AA or KK), so I'm really calling 50 to win 250 (16*5 + 50 + 120 behind). He could also be bluffing. A shove keeps us from having to make a decision on the river.

Woahhhhh what? You are not calling 50 to win 250 and you have 2 clean outs and those might not even be good. What's he bluffing with? And are you advocating a shove to avoid making a river decision? Btw I think flatting turn is a mistake and if we are continuing we should just jam. But back to calling 50 to win 250 how can you think this? If we want the rest of his stack he has to either jam river (and that means calling 120 to win his 120 + whatever is in the pot) or we jam river (and he has to call every time).

quote:

The villain was very LAG. Next hand he stacks two players with KQ vs QT vs a ace-high flush draw on a Qxx board. He proceeded to bluff off $500 over the next hour.

this is nice and all but it doesn't really help us with this hand.

# ¿ Dec 21, 2011 20:06

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Mind_Taker posted:

$1/$2 NL Cash at my local card room. I have about $550. Villain is in MP with about $500, so we're both super deep right now. He's young and seems relatively competent with bet sizing and aggression, and has actually shown two bluffs, one he showed after he won a decent sized pot with J4o, and he was caught bluffing once with QJ on an ace high board with no Q or J.

I have A10 on the button.

2 limps. Villain opens for $11. One caller in the CO. I call from the button. One of the limpers folds, the other calls.

Flop: 10 8 6 (Pot: ~$40 with rake and jackpot taken out).

Limper checks. Villain checks. CO checks. I bet $20. Limper folds. Villain raises to $60. CO folds. I call.

Turn: 5 (Pot: ~$160)

Villain bets $110. Hero folds.

After it gets checked to me on the flop and I am pretty sure I have the best hand so I lead out for half-pot, should this bet be bigger?

Villain's flop check-raise is weird. I think most decent made hands other than the nuts is leading this flop. What does he have here that would do this? I decided to call and evaluate the turn because his line is really weird at this point. If this was a more passive player I would be turbo-mucking this hand because it would scream strength, but he has been aggressive.

When he 2/3 pots it on the blank turn I am still confused, but since we are so deep I can't see continuing to the river because I am likely to have to play for pretty much my whole stack, so I decided to fold.

You probably should have realized you are going to face a bet on most turns and that most turns are pretty bad for us. I most likely call though since we're not playing for our whole stack yet and it's hard for villain to jam river as a bluff but his flop ch/r range is a looot of semibluffs. Your logic basically boils down to "we were deep and i got scared so i folded and i thought i was going to reevaluate turn but it was blank and i didnt".

Also i do bet bigger.

# ¿ Dec 21, 2011 20:10

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Dr. Eat posted:

Uhh I really hate villains line...

I think betting here into 3 other people with no club in our hand is lighting money on fire. If you are betting definitely betting big on flop...folding to check-raise even his bluffs have good equity against us. But yeah, when we bet even if we just get 1-2 callers the pot becomes really bloated and we have to bet blank turns to protect our hand.

Probably checking back flop and betting brick turns is best.

The bottom line of this train of thought is "im scared to play larger pots." Checking behind flop is a pretty big mistake and something I definitely don't do I think ever? There's a ton of draws and worse pairs and things that want to see the turn and will pay us to see it and being forced to bet blank turns isn't a problem at all because we almost always have the best hand? I really don't know why we would check behind toppest pair.

As far as his semibluffs having good equity vs us we're only seeing one card and we're IP so we can basically decide how much more we are going to put into the pot. I have no problems with bet/calling flop and calling a lot of blank turns, the only reason I wouldn't is if I thought villain had very strong hands only and very few semibluffs.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2011 01:45

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Dr. Eat posted:

Assuming we get called in two spots pot is ~150 we have 200 behind, we've definitely committed ourselves to the pot if turn bricks which I'm not a fan of deep but oh well, definitely for value.

I don't know why you think this?? We're definitely not committed in any way.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2011 09:21

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Lord of the Llamas posted:

Live $50/100 game.
Eff stacks ~$50k. Game has been running short handed a while and villain is tricky and aggro.

Hero has A9

Hero on BTN opens $500. BB calls.

Flop: A98 ($1050)

BB check-calls $2000 on flop

Turn: 9 ($5050)

Check Check

River: 2 ($5050)

BB bets $15000

Hero ?

hes on the flush, you'll beat him with your nines full over aces. act weak and ship it in!!!!

# ¿ Dec 22, 2011 20:47

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Dr. Eat posted:

this is why i can't play limit i'd like always call and if it was just one bet and be like "gently caress it i wanna see your cards" too much.

edit: but you see the pot can get ballooned up really fast and you can be getting crazy odds at the end on a river call in the AT hand.

"crazy odds" doesnt mean anything if we are losing???

# ¿ Dec 23, 2011 20:51

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Crazy685 posted:

I posted that mainly for my preflop action, I wanted some opinion on sizing. I'm way too loose aggressive by attacking a loose aggressive guy here, aren't I?

I did shove, and he had 56. I missed all my outs.

Its kind of obvious you mostly only posted results because you lost like most people do. What, do you want someone to pat you on the back and say "hey man you played it ok that sucks buddy." Like zerostar said this is a really poor hand to 3bet and it seems like we're just doing it to "play back at him" for the sake of playing back at him. This is called fancy play syndrome. Don't do it.

# ¿ Dec 28, 2011 00:44

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

The only thing I don't like about it is that we have nothing and you say we are trying to punish villain 2 for some reason (even though he has plenty of Queens in his range that are never folding) and there's not a lot we can do to punish him. Sure we can bet/shove and get draws to fold but why would we take such a marginal spot (if it's +ev at all) when he's terrible and we get paid in all better spots? I just fold flop we're picking on the wrong player in the wrong way. Turn and river are basically perfect-perfect for us to take this line but I don't think we can take it enough to show a profit.

e: like do the math on how many shitloads of Qx he has versus how many spades he can have. It's not looking very good.

MY INEVITABLE DEBT fucked around with this message at 21:16 on Dec 28, 2011

# ¿ Dec 28, 2011 21:13

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

Dr. Eat posted:

The 3bet pre is reallyyyyy bad in a vacuum IMO tho there is some metagame stuff going on here so I guess it could be OK considering it.

Ummm if we're gonna barrel def just like bet way smaller on flop then we can fire a cheaper barrel on turn. Also If we've decided we're just gonna blow the villain off whatever he has then maybe just flat pre and donk the flop? Or c-raise flop as a bluff (play it like a set a la tony g)? Both of those are way cheaper then 3betting and having to play a really big pot OOP.

Flatting pre is worse than 3betting in this spot sooo.... (also we're not in a vacuum so it doesnt really matter how good it is in a vacuum even though it's still better than flatting)

also you don't just "decided to blow villain off whatever he has" that's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. You're not even analyzing you're just like "I DONT KNOW TRY EVERYTHING ELSE." ch/r flop is probably terrible because people dont fold top pair and we're burning money trying to find out if he doesnt have top pair. 3betting pre and 2barrelling this board is pretty good and you dont give very good advice so... give less.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2012 17:59

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

olin posted:

I really agree with this. Wondering though, do you have a calling range in sb in this spot?

I mean a against a co steal from a reg who you have very little history with and who doesn't think you're full of poo poo.

Until the dynamic changes there's not a lot I'm going to flat. Mostly marginal suited face cards like KJs and AJs/AJo, something like 99. Stuff I'm not going to know what to do if we get 4bet and still plays well oop. Depending on how he reacts my range is going to change though.

# ¿ Jan 7, 2012 01:31

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

Mind_Taker posted:

I'm fine with folding here, but should I have folded on the flop or would that be too tight? I can't see KQ (or AK if he just flatted with that) check-raising this flop. What else can check-raise this flop that I beat?

If you are folding, fold flop. I am not folding flop. He can have a hand like 56cc or KQ or maybe just some naked clubs (but not nut clubs since we have the Ac). We can't call flop and then fold one of the blankish turns it's just burning money. He's not raising flop and then checking behind turn very often at all. It seems like you're just calling because I HAVE A BACKDOOR with no plan whatsoever.

re: checking AK on J88, i don't really like it. Unless we have a read that lets us ch/c we can't do anything except give up and that's going to make the hand very difficult to play. This isn't necessarily a bad thing but we're also going to let hands like T9 catch up and everything has a good amount of equity since we only have high cards. I like betting because we can get underpairs to fold (most likely on turn) and we protect vs hands like T9 that have equity vs us. Also we're OOP so what are we gonna do outplay him from OOP with ace high on all turns and rivers? I doubt it.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2012 00:24

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

Mind_Taker posted:

After I called the flop I decided that I made a mistake, which is why I folded the turn. I realize that made my flop call basically burnt money, but I didn't want to compound that mistake by making another call on the turn.

In terms of naked clubs, I guess he could be check-raising but based on my read he seems like he would just call with this type of hand. The fact that I have the A also removes a lot of these types of hands from his range.

Similarly I don't expect AK or KQ to check-raise this flop based on my read of him being pretty ABC.

You say you wouldn't fold flop, what would be your line against this type of opponent? Call/jam blank turn? Try to get it in on the flop?

My preferred line would be call/call/call. An ABC player can definitely raise those hands on this flop, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't? He has toppest pair and there's a flush draw possible so I'm pretty sure he can raise. Unless you want to put him on exactly 55 and 22 which isn't likely. Just call flop, call all turns and call most rivers depending on what he does and what it is. If turn is J and river is Q and he shoves I'm probably folding for instance.

It's a bigger mistake to call flop and fold turn than it is to call flop and call turn. If you really want to just fold flop.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2012 06:41

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

TheAbortionator posted:

Unless he is really really spazzy you should probably fold here (and as you said hes been playing alot of hands but not taking them to show down, so this likely isn't the case). Heres why we fold.

His value range if hes not a retard is going to be straights and boats.

Now the ratio of boats to straights (that you chop with) is entirely dependent on what kind of hands hes flatting 3 bets with. If hes flatting 3bets with AK/AQ 88-QQ as a lot of players do because they dont like getting it in with these hands, but don't like folding them either, then his value range is most likely gonna be....

6 Combos of AK, which you chop with.
4 combos of QQ/JJ which you lose EVERYTHING too.
(I am leaving out the unlikely but still possible oddly played AA/1010 or KK)

So a lot of the time you will be risking 200, to win 100, when you lose everything 40% of the time.

If we widen his flatting range to include KQ which would nicen up your equity just a touch, then we would probably have to add AJs too which would again gently caress it up.

The TLDR of this is don't call for a chop (even when its the most likely outcome) when it isn't the nuts.

Sorry but all of the math here is wrong. Also his range can include QJ/AJ/JT no problem (and AA since he wants to keep the terrible villain in but that's kind of advanced/nonstandard and I wouldn't expect it often). TT is about the least likely boat and there's 1 combo of KK which is pretty inconsequential. Math-wise:

The pot is not 100. We are not risking 200 to win 100. 75 pre with 3 players is 225. 50 on turn 2 players is 325. He jams 200 into 325 so we're risking 200 to win 525 which is actually a good price. Unfortunately we are either losing or chopping so we are risking 200 to win 265 or so if that is the case. We have to be chopping very very often to make that profitable. We are not. His flatting range can also include KQ no problem but that hand isn't likely to bet turn and there's only 6 combos of it. If we run it through pokerstove (which is mostly pointless because we aren't going to find any numbers that make us win):

Board: Ah Jc Jd Qs Td
Dead:

code:

	        equity  	win 	tie 	      pots won 	pots tied	
Hand 0: 	15.789%  	00.00% 	15.79% 	             0 	       18.00   { KK }
Hand 1: 	84.211%  	68.42% 	15.79% 	            78 	       18.00   { QQ-JJ, AKs, AJs, QJs, JTs, AKo, AJo }

It's important to note that we lose literally every pot and we only get anything if we chop it.

e: oh and it should be obvious at this point in the post that chopping is not the most likely outcome (3 combos of QQ 3 of JJ 6 of AK 6 of AJ and depending on board either 1 or 2 combos each of QJ and JT suited. we're doing much worse if he ever has QJo or JTo)

e2: getting 525 to 200 ( something like 2.62 to 1) we have to win 27.6% of the time. 15.79% is not that number.

MY INEVITABLE DEBT fucked around with this message at 08:28 on Feb 1, 2012

# ¿ Feb 1, 2012 08:20

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

TheAbortionator posted:

Its worth noting that even with questionable math and ranges working in your favor its still a fold.

Getting to the right answer the wrong way makes it the wrong answer.

Although making a range go in your favor and then slowly changing it to be more realistic/bad for you is a valuable tool and should not be underestimated.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2012 09:55

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

Dr. Eat posted:

Pre, meh. Against a good player I would fold OOP but this guy was a donk and AQ isn't like...AT or something.

He could have been floating my turn c-raise to draw to like 2 outs or with plan on shoving if I don't with only half PSB left. I really don't see him checking anything back with the stack-pot size...by shoving that river I think I am kinda turning my hand into a bluff I dunno if he hero-calls me with Kx/folds chops though I can have hearts. If he doesn't have much showdown value he will definitely shove river when checked to.

This isnt analysis this is word salad. It would help everyone (including you) a lot more if you came up with a concrete thought process and the line that you would take instead of saying "well maybe he does this and maybe I do that but if I do that he might do this *end post*"

# ¿ Feb 7, 2012 07:47

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

Unamuno posted:

Kinda figured this would be the result. Guess you done showed me, fella.

No you see I'm right because I ptr'd him and the results went my way and also i didnt tell anyone that i had his PTR information

# ¿ Feb 7, 2012 09:42

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

Lord of the Llamas posted:

If the BB really is a TAG then that cuts down a lot of the lower AsX combos he should have and weighs is hand towards boats for sure. I'd prob just jam for value expecting him to never find the fold button on a decent boat. Reasoning being that if he won't fold but won't raise again either you win the most from jamming.

You know there's 4 to a straight flush on the board right? We should definitely just flat. The problem isn't so much as we think he has a straight flush it's that if we put in a raise here we are repping the straight flush kind of and we aren't getting called by worse.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2012 20:56

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# ¿ May 10, 2024 00:20

MY INEVITABLE DEBT: Apr 21, 2011; I am lonely and spend most of my time on 4Chan talking about the superiority of BBC porn.

TheAbortionator posted:

The pot is going to be 18.85 on the river, and I will probably have to stack off if I plan on check calling any blank river.

I agree with Teppec and how are you going to have to stack off when he has $28 left and the pot is $19? If he shoves we can just fold, depending on the river maybe we can fold if he bets.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2012 20:48

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > The No Limit Hold'Em Critique Thread

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