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starkebn posted:How often does someone get a Royal Flush? And how often do they get paid off when it hits? Shorthanded if he's really TAG I fold ATs to a UTG raise in bad relative position. If you had two callers or something between you then I would call. As it is, the minraise is probably the worst line to take. You aren't really showing any real strength so he's probably not folding, you're just getting him to put more money in with, most likely, a better hand than yours. You're also chasing out more people preflop in a hand where more than likely you're going to want a lot of people and a big pot (ATs can play good headsup too but not against a TAG UTG raiser generally) I almost certainly fold to the big 3-bet out of position with an easily dominated hand preflop. As for postflop, that's pretty read-dependent. I mean, his line doesn't really represent one consistent thing to me. It seems like an overpair would bet small, hoping you would raise or call with a ten or smaller overpair. This is a bet that seems to not want to be called, so on the surface it really looks like unimproved high cards. I think what you have to ask yourself is if he's playing on the 2nd level where he's taking this line because it looks weak because it's too strong, if that makes sense. That is, if he knows that you know that it wouldn't make any sense to play an overpair this way he might play it exactly this way. Basically if he's a complete fish or a pretty good player who is getting tricky he might have an overpair, if he seems just OK I would assume he probably has unimproved high cards of some sort. Alternately, he could have an easily beaten pair like JJ-QQ where he doesn't want you to call because if an overcard comes he doesn't know where he stands.
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Feb 6, 2007 17:06
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Is there a royal flush bonus? Doing anything but check/calling may be -EV with them depending on stakes.
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Feb 6, 2007 20:17
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Not to mention you should generally try and structure your lines so that you're the one putting in the last bet, so you have the final fold equity, not them.
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Feb 7, 2007 21:00
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blah_blah posted:In general I think that you want less, not more fold equity here if you decide that you want to felt QQ (which seems pretty standard against a CO open). AA and KK are never folding this flop, and having fold equity on 88-JJ hands is bad, not good, since you want them to be pot committed. In this respect I think the CRai line is very good, although I think I would usually bet out $300-350 or so as a default (which I don't think is as good). Actually this sounds exactly right and I'm not sure what I was thinking!
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Feb 8, 2007 22:05
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I agree with CJ. Who the gently caress shoves a set here? At poker.com I would consider it just as likely a misclick than someone purposefully openshoving a set depending on stacks.
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Mar 13, 2007 22:46
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I generally wouldn't raise with AQo from the SB, I don't think you want to create a huge pot with AQ out of position. I mean I'd do it sometimes if the opponents folded too much postflop but in general I would stay away from making raises that are probably going to get called when you're out of position with a hand that generally doesn't make huge hands and makes big second best hands. As for the actual hand that's pretty read dependent. From his perspective, if you have two high cards, it looks like the flop probably missed you. He could just be trying to take it away from you. Does he think on this level? Is he capable of this? If so he could have complete air. If I knew you c-bet a lot it's something I would do but I dunno if he would. If you don't think he would raise you without a real hand then it's probably a fold. As it is at this point since you've only got, what, about 75E left if you call this, I think it's pretty much push or fold and I think what you do depends on your read. Actually yeah I just reread the post and he raised before MP had acted so yeah I think Loveboat is probably right, it's probably a fold. It would be different if she folded THEN he raised. Maybe your decision would be the same but it would at least be something to think about. I also completely agree with Loveboat about the second hand, the limp reraise with JJ line made me go "Uh...what?" Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 16:41 on Mar 18, 2007 |
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Mar 18, 2007 16:36
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If you shove, he's always calling with hands you beat and may fold some hands that would have bluffed into you on the river. If you call, you lose the same when you're beat when he bets again, but you win more when he bets into you again on the river when he wouldn't have called. Therefore, calling and trying to pick of a bluff is better.
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Mar 24, 2007 19:05
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I let this go here. You're basically ahead of a complete bluff and that's it, unless he's pushing with a diamond draw or something, and you're getting like 1.5:1 or something. It's just not really worth it. By betting $12 into a $17 pot, you didn't give him odds to draw at an OESD, so when it does hit, you can fold safely knowing that you bet enough that you'll make your money when it doesn't hit. On a board like this I would have bet closer to pot since there are so many cards that can scare you and at worst you're probably a 2:1 dog on the flop if he flopped a straight. Anyway, I'm pretty sure I fold this, a set is normally a monster hand but it's not really that good here, and if the guy is really that LAG I think you can find a better place to get your money in, probably with a weaker hand but in a more +EV situation. Basically it comes down to whether you think he would make a move like this more than half the time with a board like this. If you think he'd make it more than half the time, then it's a call, if not it's a fold. I don't know of that many players that would shove this more than half the time, it's a really weird bet, but I mean it really comes down to your read on him.
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Apr 9, 2007 21:24
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Here's a hand I played just a bit ago: http://www.pokerhand.org/?981878 (Ignore the stack sizes, it's due to a bug, they're really about $500 for each of us) Reads on golfguy: I've played against him a million times before, and I don't know if he's a station or he just thinks I am a bluffing rear end, but he will call big bets from me with any piece of the board when we're 4-handed or less, he's a bit tighter 5-handed but I haven't played him with that many people so it's harder to say. However, he's ALWAYS very passive, and generally never puts in huge bets and tries for huge pots without the nuts. Therefore, when he raises me on the turn, I am 99% sure he has 89. I don't even know anything else he could have that he would try for a huge pot with. I am almost positive he would just call down with a set or a flush draw or a combo draw. That said, do I push here, or call and hope to get a boat and get paid off on the river? It's one of those situations where it seems like no one would blame me for stacking off without an extreme read and I dunno if that kind of read is even possible to get such that you can fold top set with 100 BB stacks when it's possible he could have something else or be bluffing or something.
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Apr 9, 2007 21:45
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It's possible, but I don't recall him ever playing a small set this way.
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Apr 9, 2007 22:04
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faarcyde posted:Oof: I would call, simply because who would play a ten like that? The play just doesn't make any sense, and if he does have it you have a lot of outs to suck out. I push, he has 89 of hearts, I suck out goot on river to hit a boat and win.
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Apr 10, 2007 03:40
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What if I minraise just to be an rear end in a top hat, I do that sometimes
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Apr 25, 2007 17:42
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On a related note, if people are multitabling or otherwise not paying attention, betting a large but completely irregular amount into them with one or more streets to go is usually a good way to get a call since people will assume you are all-in when they see that you bet "$147.83" into a $200 pot or something. But it's also fun to just do it to be a jerk!
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Apr 25, 2007 18:41
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Yeah but I think check/raising is more of a discouraging thing for them to deal with than being check/called and bet into. It's more of a personal playstyle thing I guess, but if I were floating people a lot, I would be a lot more willing to keep floating someone who just check/calls me than someone who check/raises me on the turn, because then when they check/raise me, I know I've got to deal with a possibly huge bet on the river if I call, whereas if they just check/call I at least get to see another card before they bet, if they do bet.
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Jun 15, 2007 20:02
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No, I agree, I just meant sometimes. I don't think check raising in this spot is good either.
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Jun 15, 2007 20:14
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The flop bet is on the very extremely low end of what I would normally bet, but it's not awful. I would either bet more on the turn or check it through planning to call a river bet or bet if checked to. If he has a lower pair, he's almost definitely folding if you bet but may smell weakness and bet if you check. If he has a jack you're spewing money away and might get checkraised. I think I would actually prefer checking through turn, just because I don't think you get called by anything you beat in general and it will let you get value out of things that you're beating on the river that will call once you've shown some weakness, or they'll just bet out into you. Granted, this is what I would do at stakes where people can actually sort of play somewhat, betting is probably better at NL5 where people will just call down the whole way with pocket fours or something. I still probably only bet if he's real fishy though. If I have like AK or something instead of JJ I bet the turn, 3/4 pot or so. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 22:57 on Jul 28, 2007 |
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Jul 28, 2007 22:55
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I generally fire a second barrel if the card is scary, and usually a top card pairing is scary for them. It also means they were more likely to be calling with a draw or a weaker pair or something that they can't really call with if you bet twice, and they assume you're going to bet again on the river. In my experience it works very well. Also it's not really a c/r bluff with 77-TT because you have AK--they're not bluffing, they have the best hand. If you had AA, then they'd be bluffing, and is the reason that I'm advocating checking behind the turn here, not betting pot.
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Jul 29, 2007 01:03
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I guess we've just had different experiences then. If I see someone call light like that when I check through the river I'll make a note of it though, but I would think I would have already had them marked as a fish if they c/c two streets on that board. They've probably done other things bad by then to designate them as a station, and if that were the case I would hardly be 2-barreling them ever, or even 1-barreling them if they're extremely station-y. With AK that is.
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Jul 29, 2007 06:58
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perfmode posted:Any thoughts on this hand? I had no reads coming into it. Is it a complete spew? I would checkraise that a good amount of the time if he'll immediately let go of overcards, which is his most likely hand. Those flops where it's one paint and two low cards are the best boards to checkraise air or float with, so you should a lot to keep him from robbing you with cbets on flops like this where you have a great chance of being ahead (although note that if he calls or reraises you you're probably done so it's not really relevant what your cards are because no matter what you're probably behind if he plays back at you) Of course you can't do it like everytime or he's going to start calling and shoving turns on you if he's a thinking player, but get in the habit of looking to checkraise people's cbets when there's a good chance they didn't hit. Note I would do this if I had like I would also not mind if you donked or check/folded, but check/calling is by far the worst play you could make here, since you have to be afraid of any card higher than a jack and you really just won't know where you stand at all, and you'll be out of position. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Aug 9, 2007 |
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Aug 9, 2007 22:02
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I probably do the same. If he has a jack it's going in no matter what, if he has a king he might sometimes fold if you go all in immediately and he might fold later, the main difference is if he's just being an aggro idiot this gives you one last time to let him hang himself. If he has nothing and you push now, he has to fold, but if you call, he has to push the turn because it's his only hope of winning.
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Aug 22, 2007 06:59
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Devo posted:Here's a silly hand with AA. I'm not very good at folding AA, but this seems like one of those situations? You're 60 BB deep and you already got a quarter of your stack in, with AA if you got it in on every single flop with 60 BB after getting 16 BB pin preflop, I don't think you'd ever be making a huge mistake. Here it's a trivially easy call.
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Feb 6, 2008 16:22
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Devo posted:I did end up getting it in, I couldn't pass that up with so much of my stack committed. I'm afraid I might be a little results oriented this hand, but I asked because if my opponents are paying any attention here at all my hand is fairly face up. Even if your hand were literally face up, you got a quarter of your stack in before the flop. No matter what they had, they didn't get implied odds to hit it on the flop so you'd never be making a mistake against their range in the long run if you got it in on every single flop no matter what.
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Feb 6, 2008 16:47
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EC10 posted:well, yeah. I was actually going to post something very similar to this but I kinda figured I'd be wrong and everyone would just call me a nit, but I pretty much agree with you and MEATY.
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Feb 14, 2008 01:02
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It really depends on what kind of player he is too though. What if he raises a wide range of hands but gives up a lot when he doesn't hit on the flop? Then you can call with a lot of speculative hands and hope to just steal it from him assuming neither of you hit.
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Feb 15, 2008 05:26
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EC10 posted:not everyone only plays poker when mike greek is online, stefan podnit I don't even get what you mean by this, tons of Cake players give up to floats too much, including some of the "better" regs like RUMMOL. I'm assuming you're kidding though since I haven't seen mikegreek online in months. Also, I know it is YOU that is the nit, I have it on good authority from one "dshizzle76", so don't try and pull a fast one, gay boy! Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 19:41 on Feb 15, 2008 |
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Feb 15, 2008 17:56
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POP EM ON THE RIVER
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Mar 5, 2008 22:45
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I CAN"T BELIEVE YOU'D PUT ALL YOUR MONEY IN WITH ONE PAIR YOU SIR ARE A CLOWN
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Jun 5, 2008 04:04
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bbc what it dew posted:im sorry the hand being discussed isnt full ring so you can relate nitboy i was defending you jerk 
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Jun 5, 2008 04:17
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Well, you're beating basically exactly a bluff and nothing else, so you just have to figure out whether you think he would bluff here which is almost entirely read-dependent. There's really no hands worse than yours that would ever try to get value here, but on the other hand you have basically telegraphed your hand (in that you only have a pair) by check/calling the turn. So if you want to be on that level, you could think he was just trying to push you off one pair. I would probably give it to him though, it's a relatively small pot and he has to be bluffing like what, 30% of the time here? If you think he's bluffing more than that, then go for it. If not, fold. It really boils down to levels and your read I think. Edit: Read pot size wrong on river at first.
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Oct 3, 2008 04:18
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That's what I keep coming back to, surely he's checking a pocket pair and probably QJ also, so he basically has to be bluffing here if you're ahead. I am gonna lol if he spiked a set of 6s.
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Oct 3, 2008 06:10
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You don't even have 100 BB, he never folds a J here ever ever. I probably call and give him rope since you're way ahead or way behind and I think if he's going to call a raise with an overpair then he will get the money in anyway on the river one way or another, so at least by calling this way you can add some times where he'll make some stupid shove on the river with some bullshit.
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Oct 20, 2008 14:44
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Squibz posted:You know technically you can get probation for empty quoting.
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Oct 22, 2008 02:56
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I generally go ahead and bet out on these flops about half to 2/3 of the time depending on my read of the opponent. I want to make it so that I'll have an overpair vs. overcards about half and half here. I would just use some method of randomizing and bet here about that often, about 2/3 pot. Without a further read that they're particuarly tricky I probably give up to a raise (but with a read I might repush), and I would normally check/give up on a blank turn (to balance this if I had an overpair and they called I would try for a check shove on the turn) I just try to bet at about the frequency such that if I get raised and have to fold I can at least figure that my range is such that I'm going to have it enough of the time that raising isn't all that profitable for them in the long term. Edit: Talking about hand 3 I mean. Also, the other benefit of betting out is some lower stakes players will flat with a pair here and then have to fold if the turn is any broadway and you bet, so even if called you have more outs than just an A and K. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 00:29 on Oct 29, 2008 |
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Oct 29, 2008 00:01
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http://cakepoker.com//HandHistory/?Hand=xcLDzcTFxcPBw8TExMfHx4jFw8PAwcI%3d I'm on the button and have TT. First of all, what % of the time should I be 3betting this vs. an UTG raiser? I tend to raise JJ here 90% of the time but TT I decided to flat here since 10/20 is higher stakes than I normally play nowadays so I decided to set mine or try for an overpair instead. Second, the turn/river decisions: Villain (Palin4Prez) is a tight reg who someone called spewy in the 2p2 cake thread, but I have no other information than that and I don't know under what circumstances they find him spewy. I can possibly see him check/calling flop with like an unimproved AK given that my range is so wide here betting after everyone has checked, but donking on the turn seems very weird. It's hard for me to put him on a hand, since I don't think a smaller pair would turn their hand into a bluff like this. I thought if I flatted I could very easily represent an ace also and he would play more "honestly" on the river since I could have very easily backed into an ace and be calling here, and when he bet again on the river I was pretty sure I was beat. Should I have just folded the turn? Or even called the river? The first seems to weak and the second seems too loose given that I could really easily have an ace here. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Nov 10, 2008 |
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Nov 10, 2008 02:40
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I had a sort of interesting hand yesterday. I had KK in the BB in a 2/4 full ring game and have 150 BB. Another guy who has 150 BB raises the cutoff, button 3bets, I 4bet, cutoff cold 5bets to 60 BB, button shoves the rest of his 120 BB in. Button is a generally tight uncreative player and cutoff is an "okay" regular. Can I ever lay down KK here? I didn't because I'm not Phil Hellmuth and also not gay but I sort of thought if there's a spot you should lay down KK this might be it. I sort of think someone could spaz out with AK here enough of the time though that I have to groan and shove and just whatever happens happens. Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Nov 18, 2008 |
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Nov 18, 2008 20:51
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Sorry, I was typing that while playing and mistyped some stuff. I meant I 4bet, cutoff cold 5bet, and button shoved.
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Nov 18, 2008 21:05
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Well, cutoff had AA and button had KK also. Good times.
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Nov 18, 2008 23:48
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Crossposted from my BRAND NEW BADBEATS.COM POKER BLOG: http://www.pokerhand.org/?3503349 On the flop, when he checkraises I put him on some sort of combo draw like the Ace-high flush draw, or exactly 77 or 55, or air some of the time (which I think is a decent amount on this board). 77 or 55 are going to be fairly rare, so I think the ace-x of hearts and air dominate his range, especially on such a relatively dry board. I think AQ might play like this on the flop but most people would 3bet it from the blinds so I discount that somewhat. Ditto for QQ which I don't think he ever has here. Instead of coming back at him and possibly getting shoved on by the ace-high flush draw I decide to flat and flat a safe turn and hope he will check/fold the river. This is a line I got from aba from one of his videos where he says that this line has brought him a lot of money and that nobody ever goes for a check/call line on the river with a big hand so if they check the river you know you can pretty much steal away with a huge success rate. My main consideration was how much of the time he would bet turn and also shove river with a missed draw and I would have to fold, but I sort of assume that without a read on me he wouldn't do something like that enough of the time that I'm losing significant equity after I call the flop and turn. I am not sure what I was planning on doing with the turn, I would probably bet if checked to and fold to a checkraise after barfing. I'm not sure this is the right line though. Either way, the river came with basically a perfect card since it changed nothing as far as the draws and made it even less likely he actually had a hand, since at this point he'd basically have to have exactly 55 since there's only one combination of 77 left in the deck. When he bet $95 into such a large pot, I sort of figured he was putting me on either having a queen or a busted flush draw. If I had a busted flush draw, I would fold for $95 and if I had a queen he would only lose $95, not a big deal. I thought about it for awhile, since it seems like I have no fold equity whatsoever, but I'm risking $250 to win about $500, so he only has to have air 33% of the time here for me to see a profit. Of course, if I put him on air, then I should just flat because my AK is good. However, I think there's a decent chance that his "air" could be something like a small pocket pair or like 56 where he's bluffing with the best hand, so I decided to go for the shove and it worked. Again I'm not sure I completely played the hand correctly, but I think there's some interesting decisions there.
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Nov 26, 2008 17:01
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What about if the board contained no flush draws such that he would have to have like basically a set or not even a flush draw? I'm not sure why I didn't just ship the turn, I guess I probably should have though. Assuming I did though, you don't think anyone ever plays a busted flush draw this way, trying to move me off if I have a busted draw myself cheaply and bet/folding river? Stefan Prodan fucked around with this message at 18:23 on Nov 26, 2008 |
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Nov 26, 2008 18:17
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| # ¿ May 12, 2024 16:41 |
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I would shove. If they have a boat for some reason and didn't reraise a set or two pair on the flop because they're bizarre live players then so be it. There are just so many cards that are going to either make you barf or kill your action on the river I think you should just go ahead and put it in now and hope to get called by JQ/KQ/passively played AQ.
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Dec 4, 2008 05:20
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