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The cretins on Cake stand out. This guy didn't. I wouldn't say he was a good player but he'd done nothing to humiliate himself. http://www.pokerhand.org/?806728 Elproducto says I should raise or fold. I can see the argument for raising but it strikes me as bloating the pot up when I'd like to see SD or I can take it away on the turn. Folding seems tight; this is a pretty sweet flop for me considering I didn't hit. Calling seems kinda weak, but this seems like a regular cbet. I'd like to see the turn and make a judgement. I did and he check-folded. Elproducto says I'm being results orientated. I was just trying to deploy what Sklansky says about nto making a big pot with a mediocre hand. Thoughts. I need help for places like this.
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Feb 9, 2007 06:09
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 06:09 |
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Kalen, our new overlord at MSHE, told em not to suffer from FPS (Fancy Play Syndrome) at Cake NL50. Oh but sometimes I can't help it. I have 88 Flop: He waits a while before betting. The half bet screamed "probe/where am I?" c-bet to me. I smooth call intending to see how he treats a brick turn. I do not continue if anyone else calls. They are slowplaying the Ace. Turn: He waited a loooong time before making what is either a blocking bet or a "I don't have an Ace guv, honest!". I had decided a weak bet and I would jam it. It's about another $20 on top for him in a $40 pot roughly. I feel I have represented the Ace and as such he folds 99-KK enough of the time for me to show profit. If he wasn't already beating me, then I've made him pay to suck out as he wasn't betting out much anyway. He spent up all his thinking time, around 30 seconds but they felt like more, before he folded. I laughed. Then I hoped I played it right. http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/default.aspx?Hand=xcTAx8TFxcbNw8TExMbMwYjFwsbHw8A%3d Why has my hand died? Hand #1043011297000285: Pebble Beach 11297 Seat 1: SickParrot (40.01 in chips) Seat 2: AtotheC (13.80 in chips) Seat 3: fatboy32 (37.70 in chips) Seat 4: zombeezy (14.70 in chips) Seat 5: monk27 (11.15 in chips) Seat 7: Cordealius (48.75 in chips) Seat 8: Jigga Jon (30.05 in chips) Seat 9: Fat Turkey (57.35 in chips) Seat 10: PkrSocrates (98.02 in chips) AtotheC: posts small blind $0.25 fatboy32: posts big blind $0.50 Dealt to Fat Turkey [ 8d 8c ] zombeezy: folds monk27: folds Cordealius: folds Jigga Jon: raises to $1.75 Fat Turkey: calls PkrSocrates: folds SickParrot: calls AtotheC: folds fatboy32: calls *** FLOP *** [ Ac 6d As ] fatboy32: checks Jigga Jon: bets $3.45 Fat Turkey: calls SickParrot: folds fatboy32: folds *** TURN *** [ 2s ] Jigga Jon: bets $5 Fat Turkey: raises to $26 Jigga Jon: folds Fat Turkey: returns uncalled bet $21 *** SHOW DOWN *** Fat Turkey: mucks Fat Turkey wins $22.95 Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 20:54 on Feb 12, 2007 |
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Feb 12, 2007 20:24
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blah_blah posted:You have the best hand most of the time if he folds. I just call on the turn if I think he's full of poo poo; he's not going to triple barrel you very often and he has at most 6 outs to improve. I disagree. Violently. If he's ahead, calling down will guarentee I lose a showdown. Shoving here might not always fold the better hands but his weak turn bet makes me think he wants a cheap showdown, which I'm not offering. I think he folds a lot here. His reluctance on flop and turn tell me he is weak. If he's behind, by calling I am will have let him pay $5 in a $22 pot to see if he can hit his 6 outer. Thats really REALLY cheap, especially since any card T+ is a scare card and I can't get any value out of a winning hand, but can lose by calling when he hits. That seems really passive and doesn't get any value.
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Feb 12, 2007 20:51
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blah_blah posted:Essentially what I'm saying is to call turn and fold river unimproved short of some sick read on the player (which you declined to provide us with). Whenever you're behind here you're drawing to two outs, so there are rather dire consequences for being wrong compared to seeing a free/cheap showdown. I'm afraid our villain did not post a short biography of himself and I gave all the info I had. If I'm not saying much, then he hasn't been playing anything out the ordinary, like too many flops or too many shoves. However, I gave you his reaction speeds for bets, which scream tightness and weakness. The fact is this guy has been betting scared and I generally find people who are willing to risk their stack in this situation will not come out with such clearly scared bets. If I am ahead, I am going to get value out of anyone who tries to draw out on me rather than letting them have their cheap river card. If I'm behind, his weak bets faced with my aggression really gave me the feel he'd fold it. It's what I'd do when I'm nitty and I have TT-QQ there. I'm wondering how you extract any money from hands. Most importantly, your advice goes against Sklanksy's Fundamental Poker Theory. If I really think I'm behind, then I shouldn't be calling. If I really think I'm ahead I should be raising. quote:Also shoving here just stops him from bluffing a lot of the time, which is nice for variance but bad for EV; you shouldn't be afraid of picking him off if you think he is full of poo poo. What? Me pushing here stops him bluffing? These aren't bluffs he's making but probe bets. You can't just flat out say "that raise will stop him from bluffing which will lose you EV", its a really generic statement which you can't even back up beyond wild speculation. I'm also wondering how calling when PFR put 1/19th of their stack in and the large stacks of the blinds are still to act with very good position is not a standard for set mining? I didn't call here expecting 8s to stand up alone. However his obviously weak reactions showed that I could take it down on a later street. You seem to want to play this hand really nitty and passive.
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Feb 13, 2007 02:50
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blah_blah posted:When I try to get heroic I generally don't do it in multiway pots. In any event your shove is not for value, so you are not 'extracting' money in any reasonable sense of the word. I didn't get "heroic" until it was was heads up. The shove has more value than calling. You are suggesting I give villain cheap cards to river me. In your first post you send fold if he bets river but then you later say that I shuould call the river hoping he bluffs it. So even you don't know how to make the money off this hand. I get money by getting better hands to fold. I think I got him off a pair in this hand, and the odds say it was a better hand than mine. quote:If you really think you're ahead (do you? you haven't really made this clear in any way) then you should call and let him fire the river, since the EV of that is clearly higher than blowing him off of his hand (which you probably beat anyways). If you think that he has 99+ the vast majority of the time here and are blowing him off it enough for it to be profitable (fwiw the stack sizes are good to do precisely that, but in my experience people don't fold mid pairs that much here), then go for it by all means. I'm not sure if I'm ahead. His hand range is quite wide but he obviously believes someone has an Ace. If I am ahead, you cannot justify just calling. It lets his weak bet succeed and allows him to outdraw me cheap. The turn is raise/fold imo. If I am behind, then my shove only needs an overpair to fold once every three tries to break even. Look how he has played it, what hands he might fold and what hands he might put me on. He has played it like a medium/decent pair, he bets PF and gets callers and OH NOES two Aces come. Look at the weak bets. They are not value bets or minbets, they are probe bets of someone who doesn't want to get their stack in. If I have 99-QQ there and I see someone flat call my flop bet and raise my turn bet, I believe a tightish player can fold more than 1 in three times. I've taken villain's perspective, considered his range, considered what he puts me on and think he folds enough whether ahead or behind to make this profitable. You say in your experience people don't fold there, but again, in my experience people who make weaks bets don't want to risk their stack. quote:Obviously preflop is standard. I don't think that folding 88 with two players left to act and a bet by the PFR on a AAx flop is nitty or passive (hint: if the SB has Ax he is probably not leading). If it is 6max and I am closing the action on the flop, then I am definitely peeling; this is pretty different. In any event, I think your shove is -EV and your flop call is -EV and this is a thinly veiled brag post so congratulations I guess. It's obviously player dependent and read dependent but I don't see how it can be good in a vacuum. Why the hint? It's pretty loving obvious. Why is it different? We have a scary board which only someone with an Ace or a very good pocket pair will consider continuing with. There are no draws. Anyone who calls has a made hand. If anyone calls, they have the Ace. But if noone calls I believe I can take this pot away, maybe get a free/cheap showdown or if he shows real weakness, take it away on the turn. In any event, EC10 and kalensc seem to back my play so unless you can address something specifically in my method that is wrong (I looked at both his hand range and what he could put me on, coupled with his weak betting), I will consider your views too broad. I agree with you that generally in NL50 this line is not a good one, however I believe this would be an example of a move based on a player. I brought it to NL critique because I wanted to see if this kind of player read is how other people do it. You can believe this is a brag post all you like, the only reason the end result was included was because you can't hide it on Cake. Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Feb 13, 2007 |
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Feb 13, 2007 15:09
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LuckySevens posted:blah_blah is right (I didn't read all of the arguement though), I don't get the turn raise. This seems like an optimal spot to get him to bluff again on the river with total crap, does it not? To fold hands that beat us, per chance? Not to give overcards a very cheap draw to the river?
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Feb 14, 2007 00:45
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Just the last question on the hand I put up. I see there is a common agreement in that the flop was played badly. The concensus means I need to work on taht, so I'd like to know what about it was the problem. Is it is a multiway pot with people still to act? Or that I called the cbet at all despite not hitting. I really didn't think villain had an Ace, because of the pause and the bet, I felt thats exactly how I'd play JJ-KK. I felt only an Ace would otherwise get involved, so if I called and noone else did, I coudl push him off of it. That is not a defence, because I'll concede that it was bad. I'd just like to know what was bad with it. Does someone else have the A too often for it to profit? Should I only be continuing if the set hits in a multiway pot? Is blah right because this is actually a brag that turned out right so I thought it must be good? Edit: From chat, to explain my flop move... [02:42] <FatTurkey> It was what exactly was the problem with the 88 call [02:42] <FatTurkey> Is it that the guy cbetted and I should only be continuing with a set [02:43] <Morphius22000> yeah basically [02:43] <FatTurkey> Or was it that it was MW and the others could have an Ace [02:43] <Morphius22000> usually one guy leading into 3 others cbetting should have an ace, BUT if he doesnt someone else probably does [02:43] <Morphius22000> its both the points combined [02:44] <Morphius22000> there were 3 other people who liked their hands enough PF to raise/call a raise, most likely one of them has an ace [02:44] <FatTurkey> Morph: I knew he didn't have the Ace [02:44] <Morphius22000> so you called hoping the other two didnt? [02:44] <FatTurkey> Its a read because I just clicked that....the waiting, the betting, the PFR....it was exactly how I'd play TT-KK [02:45] <Morphius22000> there are still two more to act behind you, even if you're certain he doesnt have it [02:45] <FatTurkey> essentially yes. I felt the only person calling after me has an Ace and I either suck out or give up on turn [02:45] <Morphius22000> alright, i understand now [02:46] <FatTurkey> It's all kind of implied [02:46] <Morphius22000> right [02:46] <Morphius22000> id like to know from someone more experienced if that is spew or not [02:46] <FatTurkey> It's one of the only times I could say I've really got in an opponents head. I didn't know about the other two [02:46] <FatTurkey> Well, all of them said fold, so it appears so This is why blah might be right in it being some sort of thinly veiled brag. If it is, it is veiled from me. But this is one of the only hands where I just felt...I knew what he had and how he'd play it. That was my factor in calling. As I said it's probably wrong. What I want to know is is it wrong because I should only play when an 8 hits (so fold even HU, although I think MW makes me call look UBERstrong), or is it the fact I have this plan but still have two people to act behind me? For the record, HU I do not shove the turn. It was my perceived "strength" from calling the flop that I used as an image play on what I thought was a tight player who could lay it down. Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 03:52 on Feb 15, 2007 |
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Feb 14, 2007 20:16
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Set O' Fives - Two Two flopped set of fives within minuts of eachother on seperate tables. I take a different approach to both hands based on position and flop texture. No reads. did I play these right? http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTBxMTFxcDMwcTExMfGxIjFwsbHw8A%3d PLEASE READ MY EXPLANATION BELOW BEFORE COMMENTING http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTBxMTFxcDGwMTExMfEzYjFwsbHw8A%3d Throwing this one in for good measure as I don't know how to play these hands http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTBxMTFxcDGwMTExMfBxYjFwsbHw8A%3d <-K8o no hearts Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 20:33 on Feb 19, 2007 |
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Feb 19, 2007 18:36
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faarcyde posted:For the first one, I would recommend a standard raise in MP there. When retard #1 goes all in, I would push over the top to knock out Drawy McDrawster behind you. If he is going to call the $10 then you know he is going to call the following street as well, so you might as well raise all-in and try to knock him out. Take this with a grain of salt though because I often give crap advice. I'll explain my thinking. I might as well just asusme for this hand, that either he or me minraised, the other called (so it is HU) then someone threw $10 into the pot. It's HU, I'm OoP, first to act, both of us have $30 and the pot is $15. An open shove to me just seems wrong. Open shoving a flopped set when first to act when V has 2x pot behind him? I think there are better ways to draw that stack out when he has a decent hand. I think there are three types of hands he has A = Calls a shove. JJ, 99, flush draw, straight draw B = Folds a shove, calls a smooth call. Most jacks, most nines, gutshots, sometimes with a horrible hand. C = Hands that fold both. Rib says shove here. I can see why, I isolate the draws. Better to have one person (the all in guy) drawing against me than two (the other caller). I understand that fully. But I don't think it draws the most value from my hand. Shy of V having JJ or 99, I want his stack in there. Shoving the flop gets A hands to commit their stack, but not B hands. TI think there are the same number or even more B hands than A hands. Smooth calling gives B hands very very good odds to continue when most are drawing almost dead. B hands are the ones I want to stick around and commit their stack by drawing them in then pot commiting them/getting them to fold the turn. A hands are calling a shove, so if I smooth call and they hit the turn and our stakcs go in then, I have lost NOTHING compared to if I shove. Either way, both times they hit and I lose. Smoothcalling allows the plentiful B hands to belive they can outdraw me, when they can't. Higher variance definitely...but higher +EV as well I believe for when. 1) B hands call F but fold T 2) B hands call F and call T, feeling pot commited. The times I lose are when B hands suck out on me, which is few. My winning and losing with A hands are the same, as either way both our stacks go in Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 20:32 on Feb 19, 2007 |
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Feb 19, 2007 20:30
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Ribsauce posted:FT when I say shove behind I think the guy who open shoved probably has a TP/overpairish/2nd pair type hands because, well, that is what short stackers usually have. I never really see a short stacker flip over a drawing type hand. I couldn't disagree more. I've seen people pushing with a wide range of hands in positions like that. Either way, so what, I'm WA of all the hands you mentioned, so why would I'm not so much trying to outdraw 2 people if this guy's outs are runner runner. Why scare the other guy out if he has B hands? quote:Also your point about pretending the pot is 15 and you are HU oop doesn't work. For one, it would actually be HU for a 20 dollar pot if you smoothcall because, well, you have to smooth call. So he has to call at least 20. Now if it was truly HU oop for a 20 dollar pot you would obviously lead out at it on that board. However, in this example its HU for a 10 dollar pot with a build in lead of a minimum of at least 10 from you. Even then its still not the same because overcalling is a much stronger play than calling and he has to have a better hand vs 2 players and all that, but you know this. The Hu analogy is a throwaway comment, it has a slight impact on the hand but not to the extent you seem to pretend it does. I like how you get whipped up in your own arguments instead of addressing my reasons behind the move, which I gave. If you have a problem, argue against my points. The implied odds argument that you give, whilst debatable, doesn't matter as I still get value from hands that the 7:1 odds aren't good enough for. Edit: Also EC says its standard and EC is bigger than my dad and EC beats pro poker players HU so TAKE THAT RIB! Fat Turkey fucked around with this message at 21:04 on Feb 19, 2007 |
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Feb 19, 2007 21:01
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| # ¿ May 10, 2024 06:09 |
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I think it is valid to simply call preflop if you're happy to just play the tens like a low pocket pair, and only go to town if your set hits. I'm not saying its what I'd do, but I think it is a valid approach to the hand.
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May 30, 2007 11:22
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