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This is a good thread and I need to read it more. EC10's original hand: I would bet $275 into the $480 pot and call his push. This is exactly how I'd play AQ or AK too, except I'd fold if/when he pushes. I don't really like check-raising all in unless Jotun bets a lot when checked to in re-raised pots, which doesn't make sense since your check is mighty fishy in of itself. edit: I really wanna know EC10's thought process behind the check. Would Jotun be more willing to stack off with say JJ,TT,99 on the turn if you check the flop? Psyduck fucked around with this message at 13:12 on Feb 10, 2007 |
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Feb 10, 2007 12:56
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kalensc posted:... This is a tricky hand since the guy leading into you has 175bbs and you cover him. I would call momo's push (total of $150?) over the $91 bet and not put any more money into the pot. If big stack pushes over your call I would fold. But if he has KJ QJ or some other smaller J, he's going to be terrified of your call the same way that you're terrified of his lead. Both of you have 175bb stacks and there's no way he'd push over you with a hand you beat - but he *will* lead with a wide range that you beat - smaller J's, flush draws and straight draws. If he just calls after your call, I would check it down obviously. If he bets again on turn and river, I am folding. If a club comes and he leads, fold. If a K or a Q comes and he does the same, fold again. However, I cannot fault your fold since it's a multi-way pot and they'd BOTH have to have smaller J's for you to make a profitable call (along with the reverse implied odds with the big stack sitting there with possible draws). All I'm saying is that the shorty push means jack-poo poo, since well, he's a shorty. The lead is scary, but because I think you have his current range beaten with your TPTK, I would call and re-evaluate. 3-betting over the shorty's push is very bad obviously since it commits you to putting in 175bbs and big stack will only call when really ahead. You will get him to fold draws though :p edit: kalensc posted:Yeah, my flop decision was re-pot, which is an allin for the bigstack villain, or just fold and keep my investment at a tidy $22 and wait for a better spot. I've made a ton of similar folds on Cake the past few weeks (where I feel I'm slightly ahead, or way behind), and it's been working quite well so far so I went with my gut. This is up there with the tougher decisions though, hence my posting it. It's not always fold or push. I prefer calling here for the reasons I mentioned before. Call and re-evaluate, both on the flop and on the turn. Psyduck fucked around with this message at 13:14 on Feb 10, 2007 |
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Feb 10, 2007 13:03
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Fat Turkey posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?806728 This is fine occasionally (the float on the 622 flop) if he c-bets close to 100% and opens a fairly wide range. However I do agree that you should be repopping him pf with your strong hand more often than not. It's 6-handed and AQs is a monster here. ...Not exactly mind-blowing I guess, but it's a small pot and you took a line that you should definitely take sometimes.
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Feb 10, 2007 13:11
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duffman posted:Live 1-2 You need to start betting closer to the pot when you flop a monster with a hand like A6s. Pot the flop, bet turn 100% of the time, but probably smaller than pot so you can keep smaller flush draws in there. I mean jesus, you have top two AND the nut flush draw in a multi-way pot, what more can you ask from A6s? On the river, I like your call of the OTP's bet, but I would fold after SB raises and OTP STILL calls.
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Feb 10, 2007 13:19
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blah_blah posted:Out of curiosity, do you 3bet AQ out of the blinds there? Most of the time, but it's probably not correct just because we're dealing with full ring here and players like Jotun are (correctly) more nitty. I primarily play 6-max and I would 3-bet AQ almost all the time in this situation, and I misplace my aggression by doing the same thing in full ring games against opponents that are much tighter. At the same time, Jotun is a good player, so your 3-bets (and squeezes, because this IS a squeeze) cannot ALWAYS be AK and JJ+, because he will catch on and fold whatever part of his opening range is beaten by AK and JJ+, and will shove over/call with the other part that beats AK and JJ+. Thus, instead of 3-betting with hands like AQ, you can 3-bet and squeeze with suited connectors and sometimes small pocket pairs. I expect that EC10 is doing this against an observant player like Jotun (or maybe he doesn't even bother, since I doubt they actively try to play pots against each other and instead go after weaker players). This is why his play is so dependent on game-dynamic. *I* say that I would lead here for $275 (like 3/5 the pot) because after re-raising I lead almost all the time. However, his play of checking could easily be better just because he understands the current dynamic better than I do. Is Jotun raising a lot of limpers? Is this the first time EC10 squeezed Jotun? etc. And maybe EC10 isn't leading with QQ because that lead may only get called by better hands (i.e. is Jotun nitty enough to fold JJ here?)
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Feb 10, 2007 13:28
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EC10 posted:This seems fine. You picked up on weakness, but he still might have the best hand, so you "bluffed" with what may be the best hand. Actually I think that Fat Turkey played it excellently on the turn, but pretty badly on the flop. The preflop raiser is c-betting into THREE people on a AAx board. I mean, calling here is pretty suicidal just because a really high % of the time, one of the three will have an ace. Once you get to the turn, I agree that this guy seems to want a cheap showdown. He almost certainly has KK-JJ here. You absolutely cannot call here because you're behind 100% of the time. I mean, does he have 22? KQ? I love your bluff because you read him correctly for a scared two pair (but something that beats you) and you're taking him off it. But just fold the flop plz.
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Feb 14, 2007 01:30
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How does JC play preflop? Does he re-raise (squeeze here) a lot? Would he do it with AQ/AK a lot, or does he tend to call with AQish type hands OOP a lot? I vote for call down. Flop was AQ3r, and besides 33, I can't see any other hands that beat you that he would play so slowly (AK he often 3-bets pf, AQ would try to get in more action somewhere and might re-raise pf to try to get it in vs the short stack). In actuality I put him on a hand like JT/KJ that called on the flop with intent to bluff the turn, since your flop bet was so small anyway. He could also have AT/AJ. <thinking-station> I call turn and call river too</thinking-station>
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Feb 17, 2007 18:35
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I also think you played the hand perfectly against someone like JC by keeping the pot small on the turn. If the turn was a K/T/9 or even another Q I would fold much more often. But the 7 is such a perfect blank (but maybe it's less likely he's bluffing now?) that I tend to call down. He might even make a super thin v-bet (AT and A9) on the river that you can call again. He might even have something like 42s and 52s that is nothing but a gutter on the flop  Give him as much rope as possible since he's FPSing fairly often.edit: Also, no matter that your hand is face-up here as a marginal Ax. He know who you are and knows that you know that your hand is face-up, so he'll expect his dbl-barrel to be successful fairly often as well. From what I gather about JC, he does a lot of floating in position with hands as little as gutshots. He'll often call on the flop and raise a turn bet, or bet when checked too. He doesn't really raise that much when he can float (like he oftens call a bet on this flop with JT/KJ instead of raising it). He could also easily have Qx like KQ or QJ that is now trying to get you off an ace. All I'm saying is that because his range is comprised of so many bluffs and previous-street-semi-bluffs that you must call in the end. I must be the epitome of the thinking station! Psyduck fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Feb 17, 2007 |
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Feb 17, 2007 18:41
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where's the second hand
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Feb 17, 2007 19:30
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EC10 posted:Results on hand 1 vs JC at NL 2K: He had 54o, for the flopped gutty and turned double gutter that got there on the river. I folded river but he told me that's what he had later. bam I knew he flopped a gutshot!!!!!!
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Feb 20, 2007 13:20
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Second hand is extremely difficult EC10, just because JC's read on the BB is presumably the same as your read - that he will stack off quite light and that bluffing is pretty useless against him. This, combined with the fact that you're behind him and are calling on a 667ss board with anything from a straight draw, flush draw or a pair like 99 (for pot control again) makes his bluffing frequency much smaller than normal I think. You could even be slowplaying trips! I mean, look at JC's position. A big blind that likes to call, an opponent behind him that could have anything from a draw (which JC will need to fire a third barrel against or make a big river call on a blank) to two pair, to trips. An outright bluff or even a semibluff that bloats the pot seems asinine!! WTF does this mean? Well, JC is good enough to realize that the Q is a relative blank, so he could be firing out again with anything between 88-JJ to "protect his hand". So you could call/push. He could be doing the same thing with QQ-AA, so you could call again hoping to spike a flush, or fold (if you put him on this). OR he could have 88-JJ and be looking to CALL a push, putting you on a big combo draw and reasoning that you can't have a Q, so you could semi-value-push (lol wat) here again. I am reaaaally leaning away from him having 88-JJ as again, either you or the BB can have 6x here and be slowplaying, and I think he'd exercise a little more pot control instead of just firing another pot bet in the dark when an overcard comes. I am leaning towards him having QQ-AA, or a monster like 6x or a boat, and him betting big in the hopes that either you or the big blind tags along with a flush/straight draw so he can push all in on any river (which one of you will call if the flush/straight hits). I think JC leading out this much on the turn against a calling station like the big blind is a giveaway that he has a big hand (anything that he will not fold if pushed over) and that he doesn't much care for pot control now. Your flush outs could easily be dead, and if a big fat 2o rolls on the river, you could make a huge bad call with your Queens up. I vote fold now despite hitting top pair. Time to laffo myself to oblivion when JC turns up 22 here.
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Feb 20, 2007 13:37
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If I somehow called the turn with the Q9s on the 776Q board (which I would actually do on the spot at the table because I really would not have gone through the thought process/logic above ^^^^^^^) I am folding every single river you mentioned because I think his 3-barrel frequency with TRUE air is <10% at that point. edit: in other words, whatever river card comes I think he'd check 88-JJ like 100% of the time (you're only calling with a flush or a 6 if he bets, and you bet your missed draw which he can snap off), AA-KK most of the time (same reason, although once in a while he might try to do a very thin v-bet on a blank river), and would bet or c/r with a monster (full house, but would probably check with 6x if river comes a spade). I.e. if he bets a third time you're toast. God I write a lot but this hand is pretty loving interesting. Psyduck fucked around with this message at 14:10 on Feb 20, 2007 |
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Feb 20, 2007 13:42
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One last comment I swear: Alex, you "accidentally" made the right play in hand one against JC's 54o. I'm reasonably certain that JC is betting $689 whatever the river is.
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Feb 20, 2007 14:25
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wtf that's not standard at all. raise turn and if you don't at least raise any non-heart river.
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Feb 21, 2007 23:20
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crackstar posted:Why raise the turn? It will push out a lot of hands that otherwise might fire again. Besides, it's kind of a weird line for him to take with a flush draw, don't you think? yeah I think it's fine actually. this is a really weird line for a heart semi-bluff and you'll see an outright bluff (or a hand that is drawing very thin like he had) more often, so you'll get him to bluff again on the river a lot by just calling turn instead of re-raising over him. however I just meant that you need to get your stack in somewhere, optimally on most rivers.
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Feb 22, 2007 17:42
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duffman posted:2000bb hand I really dislike the preflop 3-bet and I dislike the tiny flop raise even more because you're so deep. What exactly were you trying to do this hand? Were you trying to slowly build the pot so you can get all your chips in somewhere? This deep you should be trying to get to showdown against a tricky LAG player instead of putting in a ton of chips on this horrible board. Obviously you're bluffing the turn. I just really dislike how the hand was played out as a whole. Preflop can go either way but with position and him being LAG, I much prefer calling. On the flop, I would make a raise to around $450 or so just instead of the tiny raise INVITING him in with the Kh. On the turn I would muck it very fast, a good player can easily be playing the Kh like this, with a fake blocking bet. If he somehow has the Qh or the Jh obviously you'll get him off it. Also, this hand is very dependent on whether or not you can rebuy instantly to cover anyone else if you wanted to. Say the bluff gets called but there are still fish with 2-3k. Will you rebuy instantly so you can still play 2000bb pots? Psyduck fucked around with this message at 06:31 on Apr 3, 2007 |
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Apr 3, 2007 06:29
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EC10 posted:stars nl 10/20 HU vs "crablar". he is a 2p2er but i dont think hes very good. i guess he wins at nl 2k because he plays nl 2k and 5k but from his posts ive read he seems like a typical massive FPS spewy 2+2er. I really like the way you played this hand. River shove is pretty bad because it's hard for him to look you up with KT/KJ/KQ (KQ is most likely another hand he 3-bets pf with) and he will almost always pop you back with AK pf. If he has a 5 he's stacking you. If he has a boat he's stacking you. Same with 64 (OESD on the flop and turn and straight on the river). The ONLY worse hand that might call the river shove is K7. Two pair on this board when he's betting this hard doesn't mean much. At the same time, he will be bluffing/FPSing a fair amount so you obviously can't just fold. Something else: I often will bet on this flop and fair amount and actually play a big pot with a hand like this against someone like Crablar. If he has KT/KJ/KQ and you call him down on the flop/turn, it will be extremely hard for him to value-shove the river.
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Apr 8, 2007 07:11
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coiol posted:Super weird hand I just played on Cake. PFR is a multitabler who doesn't seem spectacular. Mediocre I'd say. The flop checkraiser is an unknown but I'm thinking he's fairly decent since I haven't noticed anything stupid in about 30 hands. How do you not get it in here? You beat all overpairs, all two pairs, all pairs + draws, etc. I couldn't fold 222 on this flop here either, although that's probably a fold. This is why you don't play full ring.
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Apr 30, 2007 17:02
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I would definitely call that river bet MJ. Donking flop and his river shove (if he has Kx or AK what is he trying to get paid by) and the fact that both diamonds and JT missed AND that it was an insta-bet (bluffs tend to be insta-bets more often than bets that are preceded by a pause) make me call.
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Jun 26, 2007 15:39
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jaybird posted:1/2 No Limit at a real casino. Fold. He is betting pot into 3 people, so unless he is a nut he doesn't have AK or AQ. He probably doesn't have TT or 99 either since again, he is betting pot into 3 people with an overcard showing. AA/KK/JJ currently beat you. In addition, you have bad relative position. If you call this bet, one of the other guys could push on you with a set or some unlikely two pair or even a hand like AJ (where you'd often get bluffed off the best hand) and you auto-lose the $150. It's reverse-implieds here. If you only had $150 behind after his pot bet you can stack off most of the time. Here with people behind you and money behind you cannot call. What's even scarier is that a nothing-flop came and he still bets the pot in a multiway hand.
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Jun 26, 2007 15:47
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), seat 8 and 9 check, and seat 10 goes 150 into the 160 doller pot.
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Strong Sauce's hands: hand 1: Leading half pot is awful, lead for $10 or so on the flop. I would call the minraise, check fold this turn, and check/call the river hoping that he donked around on the flop raising with some gutshot or some such - you are trying to induce a bluff or a value bet with worse. Running K's make it quite unlikely he has a king in his hand although I have no idea what he has at this point but I'd call. Hand 2: I would just push because if it's a 1 card straight and opponent has that 1 card he is never folding, especially if he's sitting with a half stack to begin the hand with. If he can call a half pot bet, he'll call a push. Hand 3: He seems LAGGY and I would have raised his c-bet in the first place. When he folds you show an immediate profit and with the OESD + added equity from the backdoor clubs when you raise/get it in you are not doing that bad. Against nits you can call because you have implied odds when you hit but against LAGs you should just raise/get it in because they will fold their c-bet to a raise very often, and due to the fact that their range is so wide to begin with, your implied odds are not guaranteed when you hit. As played, push the river FOR SURE and he will snapcall with AK or KQ and you can laugh at him. Hand 4: Fold pre. Just call the river minraise, he seems capable of FPS and you're probably good 1 in 5 times or whatever you need.
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Jan 3, 2008 13:34
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nachos posted:help http://www.pokerhand.org/?2001923 I fold this for sure, best case scenario is a chop and it doesn't look like you're ever chopping here. I think preflop is a fold too if this guy is any good and understands that he shouldn't be opening light to 4x with TWO sub-20-bb stacks behind him. nachos posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?2003407 I think c/r-ai is the best play here. I mean he will check behind with JJ/QQ a lot (discounted since you have a Q and J) on the river, but when you check he will often bluff bet missed hearts/spades and maybe random gutties he floated you on the flop with, but more importantly, if he has AT (checking for pot control) or AK (checking for pot control and bluff inducing) or AQ or AJ (both gutties on the flop) he WILL value-bet all these hands over which you can c/r-all in. He will be very hard-pressed to find a fold with two pair since all the draws missed and your line is so spazzy anyway that he might call with a rivered TP. I'm probably not expressing myself well but I think this is a clear c/r AI on the offsuit A river. If it was an offsuit 9 I prefer leading.
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Jan 27, 2008 08:00
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Biggy_ posted:... call/all-in
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Jan 30, 2008 15:58
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HKS posted:underboat raise preflop to isolate and pot build. I have no idea as to your flop play, bet/3-bet can be good as well as c/r I guess. BET THE TURN PLZZZZZ. Why can't he have a flopped flush? What are you pot controlling against? He can easily have a combo draw or 4x if his hand contains a diamond. He can have overpairs with a diamond. He can have so many hands, you can't be seeing monsters already when he gives you no indication of having 44 or 66. You beat all flushes/straights/combodraws/trips hands and you need to build the pot so you have some chance of getting a large portion of your stack in on river. River as played I guess it's a call. You basically just beat a badly played flush or trips overvaluing his hand, although as weak/tight as this guy has been playing it might be a fold since he probably wouldn't shove 2x pot with naked trips or a bad flush (or any flush for that matter) on a paired board. If he really has been limp/calling KK preflop because he doesn't want to play a huge pot without the nuts, then this is a fold I guess.
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Feb 1, 2008 17:23
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Alex, definitely shove river I think. He is getting 3:1 when you shove and I think he would have value-shoved 7x/AT/flush himself anyway because YOU won't be able to fold Ax getting 3:1. I think he has air a large % of the time when played like this (i.e. he can't pay you off) but I think you're always winning when the hand is played like this so you might has well shove your half PSB. What do you think about raising to $350 on this flop and hoping he bluff 4-bets air or shoves lower Ax or a flush draw.
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Feb 13, 2008 21:26
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It's too bad the nits have all the money though.
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Feb 16, 2008 08:53
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ZeroStar posted:Wow so there are lots of different opinions on this hand. Niknik and xyven both of your posts helped me think about the hand better. Although xyven I wish you would elaborate more rather than just effectively calling me retarded. I think check folding is best against 2 opponents on the flop. If you lead the turn you must lead the river also because there are a ton of pairs + flush draws or sets or two pair type hands that will call the turn but fold on a blank river. I don't chk/calling flop is HORRIBLE but opponent has to have specific turn/river tendencies that you can take advantage of because any spade/Q/7/6/J and to a lesser extent K/T are bad turns (effectively half the deck on the turn, so a bad card will come out 75% of the time by the river), so the later streets are incredibly hard to play OOP. The other obvious thing is that you're not closing the action on the flop. Basically if you're ahead you're like 60/40 and if you're behind you're way behind, opponent can bluff you out with tons of scare cards, and can v-bet you effectively with Tx if it does blank off. I also think betting the flop is bad because you're gonna get called so so so often, and you have to double/triple barrel with some good frequency on specific turn/river combinations for your flop c-bet to be +EV on this specific texture into 2 2-card hands (2 opponents).
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May 4, 2008 01:55
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Xyven posted:i have a hand from last night that put me in a weird spot on the turn. I think you should just insta-shove this because many of his one pair hands have a diamond combination that will look you up (half of 88 combinations have a diamond for example). He can also have lots of worse Qx and the 2 isn't a bad card because many of his 4x and 5x also pick up a gutshot or some sort of OESD now. In addition, you'll be betting the turn here with lots of semi-bluffs yourself so if you have history from before he is really hard-pressed to fold any hand with any good equity in this spot. The one bad thing is that this takes away his ability to barrel if he was floating but I dunno how often people float this flop with basically 1 psb behind with real air, so it looks like he hit it somewhat hard enough that your PSB turn bet will get called by worse enough of the time. The other obvious thing is that if it does go chk chk then a diamond or a 3 will hit 25% of the time and if he has an underpair to the Q (like say 99) lots of overs will hit too meaning it's less likely you'll get called. However, if you're been 3-betting and c-betting and folding a lot to 4th/5th street pressure this might be the best line but overall I think shoving is just best. edit: I also like betting something ridiculous that he can shove over and this maximizes EV when he's floating. The one thing about the 1/4psb is that he WILL peel with hands that have 20-30% equity correctly and if the bad 25% of the deck peels on the river you are in a quandry as to what to do. I prefer the jman-rootbeer if you have Ad and not offsuit AQ. Psyduck fucked around with this message at 02:10 on May 4, 2008 |
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May 4, 2008 02:03
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