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TheKING posted:I usually stay far away from SHNL, so go easy on me. I didn't have reads on the guy, but it just seemed like a weird way to play AA so I wasn't convinced. He doesn't have to have AA (e.g, he can have TT+ as well and play it the same way) and you're getting a great price to try and spike and 8 or 9 and see if he checks the turn. Just call the flop, you generally don't have much FE against pf minraisers.
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Feb 2, 2007 05:50
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Iridox posted:You can use Poker Stove to do this. In pokerhand, he can just click on the 'calculate the odds of this hand:' link on the bottom. faarcyde posted:http://www.pokerhand.org/?794773 Going for a turn checkraise is fine, but letting the turn go c/c is atrocious. You fail to extract extra $ from high spades and low spades, you give 9x essentially a free card here, and more importantly, you drastically decrease the chance that you will stack various hands. How do you expect to get your remaining $30 in the pot when only $9 has gone in up to the turn? If you make it $15 or so on the turn, the pot is like $38 going into the river, you have $20 ish left, and you get his stack almost every time. blah_blah fucked around with this message at 01:38 on Feb 5, 2007 |
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Feb 5, 2007 01:31
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LuckySevens posted:The flush is raising the turn anyway, so we're not really trapping money with a c/r. I agree. But this is definitely a scare card and he will bet with some weak hands after you lead pf/lead flop and check turn.
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Feb 5, 2007 02:26
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p0isonxfree posted:Most of the postflop play has been covered, but don't open limp preflop. Raise it up to build pots when you flop sets, and to have a chance to take it down on the flop when you miss. He's UTG and has 80BB; it's fine; with 88 it's a raise but with hands that you play only for set value, a limp is alright.
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Feb 5, 2007 03:35
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ElProducto posted:In a full ring game this might be right but shorthanded I don't think open limping is ever a good idea. Depending on the table I think it can be acceptable to open limp suited connectors, low pocket pairs, and AK/KK/AA. This isn't necessarily the default action but I don't mind limping a hand like 44; if you're pretty active and people play back a lot at you (as happens to me at times) it's nice to keep the pot small because of implied odds and because you can play the hands profitably calling a raise but not really calling a reraise. Also if you limp and someone raises behind you, it encourages people to call which is fine if you have a 44 type hand.
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Feb 5, 2007 06:39
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jhu1e posted:To disguise your bluffs, you need to think about how you would play a big hand on a board like that. Some people like to just smooth call the flop and then start raising on the turn, and other people like to start the raising on flops like that to get draws out. I'll leave out reads and stuff, but as an obvious general tip, calling stations like to see a turn with any type of overcards or draws no matter what the odds, so raising on the flop to win the pot might not work. However, betting or raising a good amount on the turn would probably get anything less than top pair out of the hand. Even if you are wrong and they call, thats a great board because you have plenty of outs. Pushing is sometimes transparent but sometimes it works. It depends on the player. I think repotting the flop has to be the default here; if you are playing Ax suited this is exactly the kind of flop you want to see, and exactly the kind of flop you want to get your stack in on (hint: you're a 55-45 favorite against 9x or 77 here!)
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Feb 6, 2007 08:12
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jhu1e posted:My read on players who make 3/4ish pot-sized bets like that is either a pair that's vulnerable (like 77), or a semibluff. I would definitely take a shot with a raise somewhere on a hand like that, but I would hate to end up with my whole stack in the middle on the flop. I'm not in the trap where I'm too scared of losing money anymore, but I always feel stupid when he turns over the set or w/e and the draw whiffs. I would definitely raise on flops like that to mix up my play and stay aggressive, and sometimes I float because its really fun. Its just that I've never been a big fan of shoving on combo draws. I hate the feeling when I have to get my whole stack (assuming its 100bb) in like that. Is it just me? Usually when you have a combo draw, the only thing you don't want to see him turn over is a set. My default when I have a combo draw is pot pot pot pot, especially if I think my opponent can lay down top pair to a lot of action; if you know you're going to be in a coinflip or better 85% of the time and he will fold like 50% of those times with a lot of dead money in the pot, then it's pretty clear that playing your draws fast is +EV. It can be more +EV to just call if a) you know what your opponent has or b) some of your draws are really well disguised (OESFD). I'm not going to lie to you though; it is a high variance line and really sucks when you lose 5 or so in a row, but it's almost always the best line IMO.
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Feb 6, 2007 11:32
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faarcyde posted:This is basically every advice thread on 2+2, and every response I see is bet pot (maybe a little more) and if he comes over the top then fold. If he bets the pot and then folds to a shove, he will be getting nearly 6 to 1 on a call with a good overpair. Since no one in their right mind would advocate this on 2p2, I am pretty sure that we are not reading the same things. CRai seems pretty good here, as does betting and calling a push; I don't think you can find a fold here.
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Feb 7, 2007 23:05
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Stefan Prodan posted:Not to mention you should generally try and structure your lines so that you're the one putting in the last bet, so you have the final fold equity, not them. In general I think that you want less, not more fold equity here if you decide that you want to felt QQ (which seems pretty standard against a CO open). AA and KK are never folding this flop, and having fold equity on 88-JJ hands is bad, not good, since you want them to be pot committed. In this respect I think the CRai line is very good, although I think I would usually bet out $300-350 or so as a default (which I don't think is as good).
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Feb 8, 2007 01:34
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kalensc posted:Here's a 2/4 Cake hand that had me a bit confused. You are a way better FR player than I ever was and I haven't explored the depths of Cake donkishness, but you are almost never way ahead here; most of the time you are flipping coins or drawing to <6 outs; I think a fold is super standard here (and good most of the time!)
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Feb 10, 2007 12:06
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Psyduck posted:This is a good thread and I need to read it more. Out of curiosity, do you 3bet AQ out of the blinds there?
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Feb 10, 2007 13:17
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Your small pf 4-bet is a little bad, but not as gross as your flop check (seriously, wtf?). He probably has AK/KK 80% of the time and some sort of random middle pair that he's bluffing with the rest of the time. Your hand is underrepresented, you may have induced a bluff, there is $170 in the pot and it is $150 more to you, plus you have the effective second nuts; this absolutely has to be a call without reads.
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Feb 12, 2007 13:25
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You have the best hand most of the time if he folds. I just call on the turn if I think he's full of poo poo; he's not going to triple barrel you very often and he has at most 6 outs to improve.
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Feb 12, 2007 20:28
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Fat Turkey posted:I disagree. Violently. Essentially what I'm saying is to call turn and fold river unimproved short of some sick read on the player (which you declined to provide us with). Whenever you're behind here you're drawing to two outs, so there are rather dire consequences for being wrong compared to seeing a free/cheap showdown. I mean, he probably doesn't have an ace (again combinatorially speaking, when you weight his pf raising range against the two aces on the flop), but I don't generally give people with weird stack sizes at NL50 a high likelihood of being able to fold JJ here, although I agree that you can represent something like AJ or AT here the way you've played it. I would much rather you shove something like KQ here than 88, which has more showdown value here and better equity against his range. Also shoving here just stops him from bluffing a lot of the time, which is nice for variance but bad for EV; you shouldn't be afraid of picking him off if you think he is full of poo poo. Also I think the flop call is bad in principle; I haven't played FR on even a semi-regular basis since, like, May, but a fold here has to be the default. I mean, I am a calling station, but calling low-ish pairs here against a pf raiser with players still to act is either kind of spewy or really spewy depending on the quality of your opponents.
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Feb 13, 2007 00:45
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kiwi29 posted:As turkey wrote "I disagree. Violently." So I'll use that A lot of what you write here is kind of contradictory. I mean, most reasonably intelligent people don't get out of line in 4-bet pots. If I have JJ and have been 4-bet, I am not putting in another cent on any board containing a king and no set (well, maybe KQT with a OESFD). On the other hand, if he has AK, you want to get a lot of money in on this flop before more scare cards come, or before something like the Jh comes that makes you (and him!) poo poo your pants. I mean, let's be realistic here, you didn't play this hand like a genius, you played a 500BB pot against a retard who thinks that stacking off with TPNK in a 4-bet pot and calling 4-bets with KTss is correct. You really think that he's not stacking off on the flop? In this case you got lucky; in most other circumstances you get a lot more money in by playing the ABC way; betting flop, betting turn, and betting river unless the board gets stupid. I mean, saing that only better hands call and worse hands fold is an overused and often misapplied phrase. If the board is KKQ then only better hands call and worse hands fold. This is not the case when one of his three most likely hands is willing to stack off (AK), one of them may be willing to call a medium sized flop bet (QQ), and both of these are more likely than KK because really, who just cold calls the 4-bet 5-handed with KK? You may think that you are setting a brilliant Jamie Gold-esque trap but most of the time you are better off betting the flop and letting people make mistakes there than trying to get them to get out of line by checking.
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Feb 13, 2007 01:03
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While I think the flop check is suboptimal, it is better if the stacks are not super deep; I mean, a lot of the time it will be hard to get all of your stack in if the flop goes c/c and this is, despite the king, a very good flop for your hand. Of course it's always good to try different lines, but it's generally a mistake to try anything that differs drastically from ABC poker in 4-bet pots. Congrats on the 500BB pot 
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Feb 13, 2007 02:43
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Fat Turkey posted:I'm wondering how you extract any money from hands. When I try to get heroic I generally don't do it in multiway pots. In any event your shove is not for value, so you are not 'extracting' money in any reasonable sense of the word. If you really think you're ahead (do you? you haven't really made this clear in any way) then you should call and let him fire the river, since the EV of that is clearly higher than blowing him off of his hand (which you probably beat anyways). If you think that he has 99+ the vast majority of the time here and are blowing him off it enough for it to be profitable (fwiw the stack sizes are good to do precisely that, but in my experience people don't fold mid pairs that much here), then go for it by all means. Fat Turkey posted:What? Me pushing here stops him bluffing? These aren't bluffs he's making but probe bets. You can't just flat out say "that raise will stop him from bluffing which will lose you EV", its a really generic statement which you can't even back up beyond wild speculation. Obviously preflop is standard. I don't think that folding 88 with two players left to act and a bet by the PFR on a AAx flop is nitty or passive (hint: if the SB has Ax he is probably not leading). If it is 6max and I am closing the action on the flop, then I am definitely peeling; this is pretty different. In any event, I think your shove is -EV and your flop call is -EV and this is a thinly veiled brag post so congratulations I guess. It's obviously player dependent and read dependent but I don't see how it can be good in a vacuum.
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Feb 13, 2007 03:38
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EC10 posted:blah_blah, what stakes do you play and how long/how many hands have you been playing them? Ouch - do you really think my advice in general is that bad?  As far as NLHE is concerned, I have about 30k hands at NL100, about 5k at NL200, and maybe 20k hands at NL50, about half of which (that is, the NL50 hands) are at full ring. Nearly everything else is at 6max or HU. These are estimates because some of the hands are not in Pokertracker.
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Feb 14, 2007 00:01
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LorneReams posted:I'm unsure which is why I'm asking. I felt uncertain after he called the turn. I think the river bet is more or less neutral EV anyways (e.g. he sometimes has a weak two pair and calls, he sometimes folds etc), and I think it doesn't make much of a difference whether you bet $5 or shove. I think the real question is whether shorties are more or less likely (psychologically) to call bets that put them all in or nearly all in, and I have no clue what the answer is in general here.
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Feb 14, 2007 01:26
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souLjah posted:what would you do? It's just a math problem right? Pot is about $45; he shoves for $30 more, you get an overcaller, your boat outs are almost always clean, so it's $30 to you into a pot of about $111; your EV is probably about 14-24% here depending on how many boat outs are dead (two+ are dead a lot here); it's probably a fold. Make a properly sized turn bet or just check turn though; it makes your decisions a lot easier.
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Feb 14, 2007 09:18
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souLjah posted:Thanks, I should of checked the turn. Pusher had the set of 8's and caller had QTo, OESD . Case J on the river for quads. And here I thought you always had to have a flush to overcall there...
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Feb 14, 2007 10:16
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puschel posted:What would have been more appropriate? A raise to $2 or so
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Feb 16, 2007 00:17
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I agree that these are both interesting spots (bunch of people see a flop, someone ahead of you overbet shoves for like 1/4 of your stack, there are still people behind to act). I actually think that this can be one spot where minraising is good; if you call most draws have odds to hit, if you minraise the draws can call incorrectly and without implied odds, and you can shove any turn without worry.
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Feb 19, 2007 20:56
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ManicJason posted:You're just barely getting the right place. It comes down to whether or not you want to GAMBOOOOL (and get a pretty sweet table image) The earlier in your session, the better a call is, the less players know you, the better a call is, and the deeper the worse players are at the table, the better a call is. If none of these really apply, a fold is fine. Don't run it twice.
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Feb 20, 2007 23:24
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mandruku posted:I didn't think my hand was actually strong enough to play, but was SB and thought why not, there's only 2 of us. Also, I've found when playing such low blinds where I do people just tend to fold when I preflop raise much. Still learning though KQo is a much, much better than average hand heads up, and is pretty good in the way of lacking reverse implied odds at least in HU pots. Also, if you raise preflop and they fold, you actually win money so it is all good! Moreover the more you raise preflop, the less inclined they will be to fold when you have real monsters.
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Feb 26, 2007 08:39
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mandruku posted:I don't understand why what I did was so wrong though? The only other contender had a Jack, if I had raised higher he surely would have folded early and I would have made about $0.30 to $0.50 by scaring them off, but in that particular hand I had no reason to be scared of any other possible hand so why not lead them in in? I ended up basically doubling what I put in? It's more a matter of the fact that you probably don't understand basic poker concepts (some of them are nonintuitive!). All of these hands are pretty bad, and in general no one cares about brag threads (of the flop nuts make bux variety) in here, nor do they care about hands where you start with 18BB (like the AA thread).
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Feb 27, 2007 02:55
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mandruku posted:Right, ok. I'll go away, study/play some more and come back later. Thanks anyway Maybe that came off a little harsh. It's not that people are unwilling to give you advice, it's just that in some cases it's better to read why slowplaying often costs you money, and why it is good to raise with a variety of hands, and the importance of getting the right odds to draw and so on. When you flop the nuts with less than 50BB, you are never ever folding and in most cases getting your whole stack in by the turn, so there isn't much to discuss. These are exciting scenarios to be in but not so great to discuss. Conversely, places in which you have medium strength hands and are not sure whether to check, bet, or fold (if bet into) are generally more interesting, or scenarios where you are wondering whether you should have bluffed, or similar situations.
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Feb 27, 2007 03:04
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crackstar posted:These spots are so tough. Your hand is basically a bluff-catcher, since there are no worse hands that will value bet this board. This is definitely not true, he can have a big ace.
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Mar 1, 2007 22:21
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tightshirt posted:http://cakepoker.com/HandHistory/?Hand=xcTCxsTFxcDExMTExcfGzYjFx8PHxMc%3d We can't see your hand.
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Mar 4, 2007 10:02
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What are you asking? I think you should bet the turn here, but there isn't much strategy involved in 'turn second nuts, have villain make nut flush on river and essentially open shove'.
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Mar 8, 2007 10:17
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MelvinTheJerk posted:Top pair and a decent flush draw. What are the hands that beat you right now? Do you know what his equity against this range is? Except for the sets, he is anywhere from 50/50 to 44/56 against all of these hands, and he beats all of the drawing hands. It has to be a call; it's thin, but you're never really in bad shape. Also a more realistic range is something like {44,66,J8-AJo, 57, xx cc} (yeah, I know he showed up with J6) which he has very, very good equity against if you weight the hands combinatorially. Basically this is one of those hands that you don't fold unless he flips over a set; against J6 (the worst case non-set scenario), you lose $96 54.5% of the time and you win $104 (in this rakefree world) 45.5% of the time This means that calling is only a $5 mistake! Calling against KJ or AJ is only a $1.4 mistake. e: By the way, AJcc has almost exactly the same equity against the range I outlined there then does QJcc. The only hands it really makes a difference against are the AA-QQ hands, each of which our villian has approximately never. blah_blah fucked around with this message at 00:52 on Mar 14, 2007 |
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Mar 14, 2007 00:43
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MelvinTheJerk posted:Does that make me a bad player? I don't know, you tell me. I'll say this though: I wouldn't have lost $96 after making a $4 bet. No (although I doubt you realized exactly how close it was). It is very high variance and avoiding coinflips for full stacks is a good thing for your sanity a lot of the time. But I try to pick tables where I think some of my opponents are brain damaged, and when they open shove into me and I have such a relatively strong hand, where calling is never that big of a mistake but it can be very +EV because my opponents do stupid things, I have to call here. Even the implied odds of being deep alone can make the call +EV when you consider all things.
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Mar 14, 2007 00:56
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MelvinTheJerk posted:EDIT: AJcc means that I'm not going to be outdrawn on a flush if he's chasing, which is very feasible and if he is, he's just stolen a whole lot of outs from me because a flush means that I lose if he has the A or K. He cannot have a flush draw and a better pair than you. If he has any sort of draw, regardless how big, you are favored to win the hand.
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Mar 14, 2007 01:02
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MelvinTheJerk posted:Now why would you have to go and say a thing like that? Some equity calculations in poker are counterintuitive. Pair + FD, overcards + FD, etc, and they can be kind of shocking the first time you see them. I am sorry if that sounded patronizing, as that entire post was aiming to be non-inflammatory (personally I am willing to shove my entire stack in any time I get a hint of something being +EV, which often leaves me crying into my pillow after bad sessions).
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Mar 14, 2007 01:19
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Not raising that turn is madness, because half of the deck is either kind of scary to you, or will eliminate your chances of CRAIing river because villain will check behind. The open push a blank river strategy has its merits, but I think it's better to just raise turn.
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Mar 15, 2007 15:19
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Cactus Jack posted:Shove turn, smells like a draw to me. Am I the only person who thinks that shoving turn with TP nearly 200BB deep against a competent opponent is kind of stupid?
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Mar 18, 2007 03:11
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EC10 posted:they're 150 bb deep and xyven has AA, not TP Sorry, I meant one pair. And they are more like 170BB deep. But my point, such as it is, is that putting in like 140BB on this blankish turn after getting checkraised on the flop seems not so great to me. It makes sense to raise there some of the time. Maybe he folds a big draw or calls with a big draw, and maybe you stack KQ and AQ. But a lot of villains won't checkraise those TP type hands, and certainly a taggier one's checkraising range is closer to set/2p/big draw/occasional air-ish hand, and against this range you probably are just sticking in a lot of money with not so great equity. The usual disclaimers in the post are that I've never played this high for an extended period of time and I'm not familiar with the dynamics of Cake, but I have played a fair bit of NL200 and when I try this line they usually have it. I think calling turn, calling a good river (low pairing card, ace), flipping a coin if it comes a blank, and folding most other rivers is pretty good.
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Mar 18, 2007 22:17
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Loveboat posted:toybux: Board is very dry and they don't need to fold very often for him to win bux. Also given stack sizes call pf is very -EV if he doesn't win some of the time that he doesn't flop sets. Also if action goes toybux donks flop (putting CO ai) -> CO shoves -> villain folds, I am sure that toybux figures to be in a very +EV situation given a) overlay in pot b) CO's range.
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Mar 21, 2007 20:16
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AmnesiaLab posted:What? He's got a 137BB stack and one of the callers has him covered Didn't notice button, sorry. That makes the flop donk a lot shakier. Note that betting 7.50 on the flop is pretty strong since it precisely puts CO ai.
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Mar 22, 2007 22:32
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A couple of semibluffs: History: This guy and I have tangled a couple of times before; I've gotten the better of him every time and he's probably a little frustrated. Hand 1: http://www.pokerhand.org/?930392 Hand 2 occurs maybe 5 hands later; I strongly suspect that he is 4betting me light. I think I have no FE on the flop based on prior events so I just call. Should I let him 3barrel me? http://www.pokerhand.org/?930391 blah_blah fucked around with this message at 13:06 on Mar 23, 2007 |
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Mar 23, 2007 11:35
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