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NMR posted:Since he got sick he's taken to sitting in his toilet and trying to eat his own poo poo He's may need to have a probiotic supplement (Benebac) to help counteract the effect that the antibiotics are having on his gut flora. Eating the poops of a healthy rabbit are another good way to get this, so don't stop him from eating the poo poo. Throw a couple poos in there from his friend, too. This is a species where that can be a good thing.  You need to find a vet who will sell and explain syringe feeding formula (Oxbow's Critical Care). Syringe feeding is a MUST when a rabbit will not eat. You may also need to learn to do subcu fluids to make sure the gut is adequately hydrated.
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Oct 29, 2007 15:15
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PopeCrunch posted:The breeder told me that his normal diet consists of 17-18% protein pellets with black oil sunflower seeds mixed in for added fiber (to help prevent wool-block) (about 1/4 cup of this mixture per day) with unlimited hay, and fruits and vegetables 2-4 times a week. This seems to mostly jive with rabbit.org, so I guess my main query is about the basil.  That breeder is an idiot. 1. No sunflower seeds, they contain FAT and NOT fiber. This was an outright lie. 2. That protein ratio is way too high for a rabbit. The breeder fed high protein in order to make the wool more manageable, but it's detrimental to the long-term health of the animal. I'd go down to about 14% protein at most, something like Oxbow's Bunny Basic T. 3. Unlimited hay YES YES YES. At this age, the rabbit should be eating a mix of alfalfa and timothy (they need the calcium for growing bones). At 1 year of age, she needs to be on 100% timothy. 4. 2-4 times per week is too little for veggies. I would feed at least a small amount of veggie every day. Ideally, you want the diet to be about 80% hay (for fiber), 15% veggies (for nutrients) and 5% pellets (to make up whatever nutrients are missing from the veggies). You can certainly feed a pellet-free diet, many of us have started to do that after years of experimentation. It seems to result in a lower incidence of bladder sludge and stasis, at least in my personal experience. 5. Basil is fine, but variety is key. Look here for the veggie list and look at the ones with (!) which should be fed in moderation. My brain hurts that this breeder is spreading this kind of misinformation.
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Oct 29, 2007 19:35
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PopeCrunch posted:Huh. I would have thought the husk of the sunflower seed would have plenty of fiber but hey. Rabbits require long-stem fiber, such as that found in grasses, rather than short stem fiber, found in most every other part of a plant. This is also why hay cubes and pellets containing timothy are not acceptable substitutes for long cut hay. Your concern about fruit is right on the money. I feed almost no fruit - less than one serving per month. An exception is craisins (raisined cranberries) which I offer 1-2, about once a week, as a treat. PopeCrunch posted:Oh also: The article you pointed me to says (if I'm reading it right) that the main worry of high-protein food is that some of it may come from animal sources which bunnies are not really equipped to digest properly and that's where the health problems come from. If I can find a plant source of higher-protein food, will that still have the problems? Yes, it still causes problems. Too much protein puts a strain on the kidneys, and the urinary tract is already the Achilles' heel of the rabbit. A "normal" pellet allotment should be fine to provide all necessary protein for a long haired breed, unless she's losing weight. In that case a small portion of alfalfa hay provides more than adequate protein. Extra protein only helps wool be "manageable" in the sense that it makes it longer and thicker - perfect for the person who spins it into textiles. Not perfect for someone who wants an easy to maintain coat with less chance of hairballs!  The exception is a diabetic rabbit - they do need extra protein, again best served by alfalfa hay. But for a healthy rabbit, already prone to bladder and kidney problems - it's just not worth the risk. girlscoutdropout posted:Only thing I differ from is I feed 3-4 cups of veggies daily to each of mine (the majority being a veggie that is okay to feed in such large amounts. i.e. parsley, red leaf and romaine lettuce). There is a difference in opinion about the ideal veggie portion. Many people feel that too many veggies leads to loose stool, and that if the general public doesn't know how to balance oxalate and calcium ratios in their veggies, they're doing more harm than good. But personally, I'm with you - I feed many more veggies and very few pellets. But I stick with the HRS party line for educational purposes.
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Oct 30, 2007 01:08
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PopeCrunch posted:There's a HRC-approved vet near here, I'll give them a jingle and talk about fine-tuning protein intake. Spinning the wool into textiles is one of the reasons we got him, so. Basically I'm going to try to find (with the vet's help, of course) the 'sweet spot' of maximum wool benefit with zero health impact. It's a bit like an engineering problem, but slightly hairier and more prone to peeing on me. With the vet helping, this can work. You'll probably want to do regular blood tests so you have an easy way to spot changes in kidney function. Also, keep in mind that wool producing rabbits are only "useful" for a certain amount of time (which is why breeders dump them after a few years). As he gets older, the quality of his fur will decrease and no attempts to remedy it through diet will help. At that point it's best to keep him shaved and let him be retired from the production line. Good luck!
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Oct 30, 2007 17:21
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Luvcow posted:I could have but I would feel awful if it died indoors, it being wild and all. If it seemed to have broken limbs I would have taken it in and tried other vets to find one that handles rabbits, as is it seemed to me to be a situation were I needed to interfere the least amount possible. The reaction you describe is a common shock reaction. Without having a wildlife rehabber on call, you did the right thing. In all probability the stress of being confined and handled by someone inexperienced would have shocked him over the edge. You might want to track down a rehabber now, and keep the phone number handy, just in case there is a next time. Chiken n' Waffles posted:are they OK for him to have on a very limited basis? Like one a year? Maybe. But processed grain products are pretty bad for them and I wouldn't give them more often than that. I fed Jeannie a cheerio once. She thought it was the loving second coming. Hasn't had any since because a) I don't know if that'll be the thing that pushes her GI system into stasis, and b) I hate being attacked every time she hears cereal being poured. Veggies themselves are the best treats, especially fresh fragrant herbs: dill, cilantro, basil, parsley. I have NEVER had a rabbit refuse dill, no matter how stuffed with romaine and green pepper they already were. 
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Oct 31, 2007 15:00
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Deceptor101 posted:For a rough explanation with lots of pictures on how I built it, head on over to my site: http://playingwithmadness.com/blog/?p=171 Very nice, but I'm anxious about all the little ends. How close did you trim them? If you run your hand over the cut ends, is it at all sharp? Buns get mouth abscesses fairly easily; if a lip or cheek is cut you might end up with a horrible situation. You might want to get a length of 1/2" pvc (or similar) pipe, slice it down the middle, then cut it to size so you can slide it over all four sides of the opening, as a barrier against the little sharp ends.
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Nov 4, 2007 15:41
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Deceptor101 posted:Update on feeder for mine and alucinor's sanity: AWESOME. That's exactly what I meant. I use the same technique on my litterboxes. I use rubbermaid containers with a cut-out for the smaller buns. After a few weeks the bunnies discovered the joys of nibbling the cut edges, resulting in a few litterpans with less than 1" of wall at the front.  Lining them with a split pipe as above totally eliminates the chewing.BIG HORNY COW and mode13h, those are lovely cages!
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Nov 5, 2007 15:59
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Bagleworm posted:Are there any particular pellets no rabbit can resist? I'm a bit worried because I'm not sure he's getting all the nutrients he needs from the hay and carrots/romaine lettuce/radish tops. (he wouldn't eat the green pepper or fruit...) His nutrition is probably fine without pellets. Several of us here feed a nearly pellet-free diet. Whatever brand you're using, it's probably different from what he's used to and will just take time for him to get interested. Do NOT sacrifice quality in order to find something that he'll eat. Stick with Oxbow Bunny Basic T, or American Pet Diner, or Kaytee Timothy Complete if you can't find the good stuff. As for not walking on hardwood - you guys should consider large industrial doormats, the 3'x5' or larger ones that they put inside the front doors in schools or other public buildings. They are backed with rubber, so pee won't soak through, and they are almost perfectly flat, so there's no tempting shag for bunny to nibble on, and they can be hosed off and hung to dry, so washing is a breeze. I have tile in my bunny room and my bigger buns won't leave their "rugs". I think I got mine at a hardware store for about $12 each. Also: I'm a huge nerd and I've used google sketchup to make coroplast-cube cages. Here's a divided 2x4 with a jumping platform, two doors, without coroplast.  Anyone who wants to "visualize" a cube cage, let me know what you have in mind and I'll put it together for you! Anything to make converts to the C&C way. 
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Nov 6, 2007 16:16
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TotalBiscuit posted:Someone recommended a good rabbit vet in/around Charlotte, can that person please remind me who that was, since that thread has long-since been archived? There are two: Griffin Avian and Exotic Veterinary Hospital 2100 Lane Street Kannapolis, NC 28083 (704) 932.8111 http://www.griffinexotics.com/ Dr. Lauren Powers Carolina Veterinary Specialists 12117 Statesville Rd. Huntersville, NC 28078 704 949-1100 Both are phenomenal vets and worth every drop of gas to drive there, no matter how far away you are!
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Nov 6, 2007 17:43
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TotalBiscuit posted:If we only had one of them altered, what could potentially happen behavior-wise when trying to bond them? How would an altered female react to an unaltered male's advances and visa-versa? It might utterly fail. Or they might bond, and then later fight with great damage once one goes into hormonal behavior. It depends strongly on the individuals, but EVERY time I've tried to bond one intact/one altered, the intact animal caused heaps of trouble (in both female-intact and male-intact situations). I'd STRONGLY recommend getting both done at once, waiting 30+ days for the hormones to work out of their systems, THEN starting the bonding. You can also alter one now, one next month, but don't start the bonding till the second animal has had 30 days to recover. Praesil posted:Does anyone have any insights as to why he's being so random? 1. Is he neutered? If not, that's why. 2. How big is his cage? If smaller than 3 rabbit lengths, that's why. If both are at fault, (1) is a bigger problem than (2). If he is neutered AND the cage is large enough, try this: 1. Two litterboxes, on opposite sides of the cage. If the cage is more than 3' on a side, put one in every corner. 2. Use large litterboxes, not the little corner boxes - rubbermaid storage boxes work well, cut down one side if it's too tall. 3. Put his hay manger OVER one of the litterboxes, so he has to sit inside the box to eat. You can also just put the hay directly in the litterbox if you don't have a manger that works this way; but you must offer fresh hay twice a day. 4. Clean all litterboxes DAILY. Don't even begin to let them get smelly. Wipe up any accidents ASAP with white vinegar. This works 99.9% of the time. I have one stubborn bunny who was intact and outdoors in a wire hutch for 10 years. He still drops poops whenever he eats, so I have to put his pellet & veggie bowl inside a litter box, too.
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Nov 6, 2007 19:11
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ritjet posted:I have a huge question. A carrier is actually fine, if it's large enough. I transported 10 bunnies from NC to WI (about 19 hours driving over 2 days). They seemed to like the enclosed feeling of a carrier (the one who was in a small cage ended up getting a towel draped over her halfway through the first morning). Make sure the cage or carrier is large enough for a small litterpan (even an 8"x6" pyrex baking pan is big enough) and for a folded towel next to it for bunny to lay on. You can also use grass mats; but I think a bare-floor carrier would make them anxious because they had no purchase on it. I attached a hay rack above each of the litter pans; you can also just throw the hay in the litterbox. My buns drink out of bowls, not bottles, so we stopped and I offered a bowl about every 2 hours for at least 10 minutes. However, I also had lots of moist veggies with me (romaine and green pepper) so nobody really drank except at night in the hotel. Not as much of a problem this time of year, but if you are driving anywhere hot (over 70), DO NOT leave the bunny unattended in the car for more than a moment. At that temperature, it can get to over 100 degrees in an hour. Even 10 minutes getting food is too long, if the car's internal temperature can get over 85 in that time. Remember, bunnies can deal with cold much better than with heat. If you have to be away from the car and are traveling alone, get a duplicate car key made, and lock the car with the engine running and the A/C on. And put a Club on the wheel if you don't have another security system. One thing that's an absolute must: figure out the cities you're passing through on your route, and then check the recommended vet page on rabbit.org. Record the names & numbers, and print directions, of all the vets on the route - if you're driving after hours, you might want to pick two or three cities and use google to find 24 hour vets, and call to make sure they see rabbits. You really don't want to be stuck in the middle of nowhere with a sick bun. When you get to your destination, let the bunny relax in a quiet environment (ie, don't fuss over her too much). Make sure you see poops, pees and eating within 4 hours of arrival. The very last thing to consider: pack extra food and supplies somewhere that you cannot lose them. One of my friends also made the NC-WI trip with her three elderly rabbits, about a year before I did. I got a frantic call one morning - she was somewhere in Ohio and her box of Oxbow blew out of her truck. She was terrified that if she couldn't find Oxbow, the bunnies would go into stasis from having unfamiliar food. She was lucky that I was able to find her a place not too far of her route, but pissed that she hadn't tied down her load better.
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Nov 9, 2007 18:06
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Windy posted:Really, what? I've never heard that...unless I missed some articles somewhere. Anyone care to chime in. I've been thinking of adopting a pig after Christmas for the bunnies to play with(on occasion) No no please no! It's true. Rabbits have bordetella and other gram negative bacteria as part of their natural intestinal flora (the same way we have e coli). Guinea pigs have gram positive bacteria. A pig exposed to a rabbit's poops can end up with URIs (from the bordetella) or lethal GI tract infections as the gram negative bacteria wipes out the gram positive. This isn't to speak of the pigs who have suffered broken backs or abscessed bite wounds from overzealous rabbit playmates. Never never never place a guinea pig with a rabbit. It's just a bad idea all around.
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Nov 19, 2007 16:22
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decaf.tihs posted:Gah. Can you post a picture of the whole cage so we can see the layout? decaf.tihs posted:When I tried giving her the litterbox to climb back into so I could put her back into the cage, she put the cardboard edge in her mouth and flicked it out of her space. You're using a cardboard litterbox? decaf.tihs posted:the cage is on my drawer and there's no accessible way to it other than by me placing her back in it. decaf.tihs posted:She loves vegetables and eats them up really quickly, especially carrots and Romano lettuce. I'm going to feed her extra veggies in case she really isn't drinking any water. I pinched her skin and it settled back down right away, that means that she's not dehydrated which is a good thing. Rabbits don't drink as frequently as dogs and cats so it's no surprise that you aren't seeing any drinking. Romaine is good, but go easy on the carrots. Parsley, cilantro, green pepper, dill, kale, etc are all much better for her than carrots. I'd give no more than one baby carrot per day, or less. decaf.tihs posted:bottle/feeder combo that looks ideal - except I don't know if the bunny will learn to use it This waterer is a terrible idea. It's all plastic, and will get chewed on or thrown around. A better setup is a heavy ceramic dog bowl with a water bottle fixed over top of it, where it can drip into the bowl.
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Nov 19, 2007 16:38
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decaf.tihs posted:I guess then I need to bunny proof the entire room and block off access to my roommate's stuff by way of some sort of fence (any ideas for a cheap 2-3 yard collapsible fence? I'm thinking a collapsible pen that can double as a divider). Putting a bigger cage/pen on my closet floor with the door open would be a lot more ideal for her, agreed. As has been mentioned a few times in this thread these grids plus some zipties makes a cheap, foldable pen or fence. Grids are available at Target, Bed Bath & Beyond, and sometimes Walmart. Can you post a photo of the cage? We're looking for information not provided by a schematic.
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Nov 19, 2007 18:35
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Windy posted:I'm confused why even rabbit.org would have articles suggesting pairing rabbits with pigs(or other species - last resort mind you) if it's a bad idea. Two reasons: foremost because they aren't GP experts. Some view their GPs as toys for the rabbits rather than as living things in their own right, and many rabbit people insist that pigs are little more than rabbits with shorter ears. Some of us from Guinea Lynx have actually contacted the people who wrote those articles, asking them to modify or remove them, and we've either been met with "but we've always done it that way" or "gosh I never knew, I'll pull the page immediately" followed by no action. Secondly, the problems caused by the difference in intestinal flora was only recognized about 10 years ago. All this probiotic stuff that's in the news now, and the recent development of the two yogurts that are supposed to have beneficial bacteria? All trickle down from the original studies which are now over a decade old; it takes that long for research to gain public awareness. Any webpage written before about 2005 will probably be based on information older than the discoveries talking about these issues. Many vets aren't even aware of this issue, unless they're up to date on current research.
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Nov 19, 2007 19:38
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Ok, first of all, she's got to be bored out of her mind in there. Digging is something rabbits do for entertainment, and right now she has NOTHING else to do except dig. Where are the baby keys? Where is the willow ball? Where is the phone book to rip up? Go here and spend $30 on stuff to stave off boredom. Second, that cardboard box isn't gonna last very long. Go get a small cat litterbox or rubbermaid container (like 9"x12") and fill it with paper-based, rabbit-safe litter like Yesterday's News or Carefresh (NOT any sort of clay, mineral, "magic absorbant", or clumping litter). This will allow her to work out some her frustration by digging in a nice, noisy, yielding substrate. There's a very good chance you're going to have litterbox problems because that cage is too small for her to get away from her litterbox, she'll regard the whole cage as her toilet. Once you have a slightly smaller litterbox, she'll have a bit more room to stretch out next to it which might delay the onset of this problem. You can also then give her a sideways cardboard box which will help entertain her even further. The box that a case of copy paper comes in is perfect. Slide the litterbox inside it. She can eat the sides, climb on top, etc. This will also give her a place to hide - rabbits don't feel secure without a burrow. Third, put a LOT more hay in there with her. About two large handfulls, twice a day, You can put it right in her litterbox or you can get a little wire thing like this from the hardware store. Hay should be about 80% of her diet. Sure, apples are tasty, but they are high in sugar and acids. Don't feed too many of them. Fourth, get a couple of ceramic bowls, one for the water, one for the pellets. Poor thing should not have to eat her food off the floor. They don't have to be huge, about 4" diameter should be plenty. She won't be able to tip them and she'll have a little more room in there. Fifth, you actually have enough room vertically to give her a jumping platform inside that cage, which will help a little bit. Get some grids and some cardboard and zipties; and make a platform of the grids, cover it with cardboard held down by zipties, ziptie the whole thing to the wall. Make it as big as you can so she can actually stretch out up there, maybe 12"x18". Use 1" wooden dowels for structural support as needed, and if you can put a carpet square up there for her to flop on that would be even better. Use binder clips to secure it in place.
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Nov 19, 2007 21:32
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decaf.tihs posted:Thanks for all that great advice. I just got her Saturday and am trying my best to be a good rabbit owner. I'll start with making a pen out of those grid boxes so she can get exercise for more than half an hour a day each day. I'll make sure to do everything you've mentioned! You're not going to be able to do everything she REALLY needs with the situation you've described. 1) I have that same cage; I use it as a night cage for my bird. The pan has a 1" lip and indentation all around, making the actual usable floor space more like 16"x22" That's about 2.4 square feet of space. MINIMUM recommended is about 8 square feet (2'x4'). She desperately needs a bigger cage. 2) HRS guidelines call for 4 hours per day or 30 hours per week of free run time outside the cage. 3) Is she spayed? If not, prepare for misery and/or cancer unless you have $300 laying around. 4) Rabbits are highly social creatures and need a same-species friend, but of course, you can't do that unless you can make all the other changes needed. At best my advice is only going to put off the inevitable. I won't lie, I'm very disappointed that you got a rabbit, and I think that despite your best intentions, it's going to end badly because you just cannot give her what she needs at this stage in your life. I had to go hug one of my bunnies and throw them all some more toys when I saw that tiny, boring cage Hopster's in. Poor baby.
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Nov 19, 2007 22:14
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decaf.tihs posted:I'm not going to obsess over it like some of you may. I obsess because I do this for a living. My job and most of my free time revolves around picking up the broken pieces when someone who has been ill-prepared for an animal ends up dumping it. If I was a mechanic I'd be just as obsessed by anyone who didn't get their oil changed regularly. decaf.tihs posted:It's way better here in my loving companionship than back in the shelter or as cat food. No, it's not. Love and good intentions are not enough to prevent illness or behavioral issues due to improper (but well-intentioned) care. And if you ever have to rehome her, she's not going to be as desirable to future adopters as a well-adjusted, pair-bonded animal who has enjoyed maximally optimal levels of care. Undesirable animals who need to be rehomed end up in a downward spiral until they're alone in a backyard hutch. THAT is what I'm trying to help you avoid. My house is filled with animals who were loved, and who are now completely unadoptable because love is not enough. They have physical disabilities or chronic illnesses because they didn't get vet care on time, or had improper nutrition. They have behavioral issues because they were deprived of social interaction and enriching environmental stimulation. By all rights, all of these animals would have been better off euthanized. decaf.tihs posted:That doesn't make me feel very happy about the whole prospect of raising her after getting the impression that all I'll be doing is giving her a crappy life. You're not abusing her and I'm not saying that. But you were told "here are 10 things you need to be able to do before getting a rabbit." You managed about 3 of those. You seem to be aiming for another 2-3, which is certainly to your credit. I will also give you all due credit for asking for help, but you have to understand why I'm being skeptical: You asked for advice before you got her, and didn't listen to the advice when it said "don't get a rabbit". Forgive me for fearing you won't listen this time either, and PLEASE prove me wrong. I'm not trying to make you feel bad, I'm trying to make sure you know realistically what her deficiencies are and what challenges you're going to face, so that you can compensate for them. You CAN do that, but not if you don't know what it is that you need to compensate for. If I just say "oh well, you did the best you could" you're going to walk blindly into situations that you could have avoided if someone had bothered to tell you the truth. It's like seeing someone about to fall over the edge of a cliff. I'm going to throw you all the ropes you need, but I'm also going to ask why the hell you were playing there in the first place. Keep updating, here or in your other thread, and we will all keep providing as much support as we can. Again, please prove me wrong, I will be ecstatic. If you still have this rabbit a year and she's healthy and happy, PM me or email me through my rescue and I will send you a box of hay or a bunny toy basket, your choice.
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Nov 20, 2007 16:59
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TheDeadKnow posted:So I know the diagnosis is poo poo overall, but I am wondering if anyone has had complications up to a year after fixing their rabbit that show up and kill within a day. Neutering doesn't kill rabbits. Living outdoor does. I've had over 50 rabbits spayed and neutered since 2003, with no post-surgical complications apart from one doe who had a large ovarian tumor at the time of spay. The cancer had already metastasized but she lived another 4 years. 2-3 years is an average lifespan for an outdoor rabbit. It's 8-12 for an indoor rabbit. If the rabbit was indoors, the owner could have seen that he wasn't eating, drinking, or pooping normally, and could have gotten vetcare that would probably have saved him. That's not to go into all of the outdoor hazards that it could have been, which he would never have been exposed to indoors. Please go slap that vet for me. Slap Thumper's owner, too, while you're at it. God, this is why I hate people.
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Nov 29, 2007 16:02
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TheDeadKnow posted:The vet is in charge of such animals like baby tigers. I was suspicious of what she said overall, knowing that Thumper lived outdoors, but the fact the vet said this made me wonder. Specialists are specialists. I'm not casting aspersions on her vet knowledge; in all probability she's a very good vet able to provide sound, accurate care to tigers and lions and bears oh my. But tigers aren't rabbits, and specialists need to recognize that their knowledge is limited to their own area of expertise. You don't trust your proctologist to treat your heart murmur, either. My favorite vet of all time is a guy near Raleigh who is not an exotics specialist. He KNOWS that he's not an expert, and his ego isn't tied up in it. He hasn't always provided the best care - it took him several tries to learn to do cavy neuters without causing abscesses - but he admits his mistakes and is completely up front when he knows he's out of his league. He's said several times "I haven't read about that since I was in school which was 10 years ago, so my knowledge is too out of date to be useful" and then he goes and does the research and learns what's current practice on that topic. He's about a year away from his exotics certification now and I'm so proud of him. I'd still take my animals to him over any other vet in the area even if he never got certified.
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Nov 30, 2007 16:21
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theflosquito posted:I am hoping to adopt a rabbit this weekend. He is a 2 year old neutered mini lop who was rescued from a neglectful family, and he is currently being taken care of by a vet student. So far, his feed has consisted mostly of pellets. Obviously as soon as I get him I want to wean him into a more healthy diet. How gradually should I wean him off (or at least mostly off) the pellets? Antibiotics can cause a lot of GI upset, but so can unfamiliar veggies. So, you might actually want to keep him him on free-feed pellets and offer unlimited timothy, but no veggies, until he finishes. The timothy is very unlikely to cause any GI problems so it's fine to add that in. But this way you can be sure that the GI upset is antibiotics not new veggies. It would also be good to get a prescription fr Benebac to strengthen his gut flora while he's on the antibiotics. Once you're ready to start the diet change, you can offer him unlimited hay and limited veggies (introduced one at a time in small quantities, watching constantly for GI changes), but continue to offer pellets in the quantities outlined here. If the pellets are a poor brand, wait until you are certain the rabbit is eating hay and veggies prior to switching pellet brands or weaning him totally off. If the rabbit doesn't obviously eat the hay or veggies, you may need to allow more pellets, but there should be a few hours every day when the rabbit has no pellets and plenty of hay and veggies. The best way to be sure he's eating enough hay & veggies (if you don't actually see them disappearing) is to weigh him daily and keep a record of his weight.
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Dec 7, 2007 22:25
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Cowslips Warren posted:I'm wondering if the lesser of two evils would be to find someone who can take care of both rabbits, rather than split up a bonded pair. Yes, that would probably be preferable. Splitting up a bonded pair can result in grieving for both animals, and grief can be serious even to the extent of leading to health problems. However, the BEST solution to your situation is to keep them, together, in a cage, even if they hardly ever get any out time. You just have to watch for a new set health and behavioral problems, but it won't mentally traumatize them or anything. A caged bonded pair in an educated, responsible home is better than being rehomed to god only knows what kind of conditions, or than being separated. Hell, if you surrender them, they might get separated later anyhow. Let me give you a concrete example to use on your mom: I have a rescue. I moved from a 3 bedroom house to a 2 bedroom apartment, which I now have to share with another person. All of my animals had to downsize as well. Most of the pigs were paired in 3'x7' cages, now I have to have 4 animals in the same size space. My rabbits went from free range or 3'x12' pens, down to 3'x3' pens or 2'x4' 2-story Leith condos. My giant 10lb sanctuary rabbits, Roo and BunBun, went from a 12'x8' room of their own, down to a 3'x3' pen. They responded by rattling the door at me any time I walked by, and staring at me so reproachfully that it almost started to affect my self-esteem (kidding). After two months I was able to expand it to a 3'x7', and Roo's first action in the larger pen was to do an XXL sized binky, even though it was still so much smaller than what he previously had. You haven't lived till you've seen a rabbit the size of a schnauzer leap into the air with joy. Would they be happier in a larger space? Obviously, yes. Are they happy in their current smaller space. Also yes. I really hope you can talk your mom into letting you keep both rabbits, and into realizing that being in a big enough cage is not going to be as much of a problem as separating or rehoming them.
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Dec 11, 2007 19:38
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Foranzan posted:well, to be quite honest I'm having trouble with their litter boxes. they both use the same corner of their cage, but they also push the box out of that corner whenever I put it there (I put carefresh in and up around it as well). Try using a larger, heavier box. I use rubbermaid containers with a slightly lower "doorway" cut in one side Clicky. It's tall enough that they can dig and dig and not throw as much stuff out, and also helps them from hanging their asses over the side and peeing down the drat side. Dr. Housecat MD posted:Have you considered punching/drilling a hole into the boxes, then tying or clipping them to the side of the cage? Also this. If you don't want to punch a hole, get some of those baby links, they work great for attaching boxes to the cage, holding doors open or closed, or just being used as toys. ritjet posted:To all who have actually bonded rabbits, what made you do it? It's better for the rabbit. We withhold an important and enriching component from their lives when we deny them same-species companionship. Of course, we do that in other ways too - we deny them sex, but if they're neutered, that helps reduce the mating drive. There's no way to reduce a rabbit's natural drive to be part of a gregarious community. I've argued in other threads that no amount of human or cat or whatever companionship can compare to the companionship of another rabbit. Bonded rabbits act like one rabbit with two bodies: they eat together, groom together, poop together. We just can't provide the kind of social enrichment that is provided when they have another furry body in constant contact with them, 24-7. I have one rabbit, Jeannie, who for 3 years has demonstrated that she HATES all other rabbits. I've still been working on bonding her, because it breaks my heart when I pass by her pen in the middle of the night, and she charges out and demands to be petted, and I know that she's lonesome despite the extra attention she gets, because she needs companionship on HER schedule, not just when I'm not at work or not asleep. I've gotten rabbits who have lived nearly their whole lives (7-8 years) alone. They may never have seen another rabbit since they were weaned. But the change in behavior when you find them a friend is worth every hassle of doing intros or of having two to provide for. To see the absolute blissed out look when they have someone to lick them, to see them scurry to one another for comfort when they are startled, is worth everything. Max was a 7 year old female who was loved but alone ever since she was bought from a breeder. When she was bonded to Dodger, she would sit and lick his ears for literally hours at a time. If he took one step, she moved right with him. She had been denied that urge to have someone to cuddle all those years and boy did she make up for it when she got the chance. As for whether it changes their personality - no, I don't think it does. It makes some rabbits less needy, but that's not a change in personality, it's a change in behavior. I have one girl, Daisy, who is the most friendly rabbit EVER. She violates every rule of rabbit behavior. She will march right up onto your lap and lick you mercilessly, loves to be carried and cuddled. She is bold and bossy, and will jump up on the bed and throw your stuff on the floor with no invitation and no shame. Finding a partner did not change her. She STILL demands kisses, STILL licks you like crazy, and still does whatever she drat well pleases. But now she has a nervous little shadow, Wordsworth, following her around, and providing her with someone to love on when the people aren't home. If there's been any personality change, it's been in him - he came to us afraid of people, but since Daisy came, he's become just a hair more trusting.
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Dec 12, 2007 17:04
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okiecompy posted:If it is the case that they're so much much much happier bonded, how can I hope to bond Pixel-pon when she rips the fur out of anything that comes near her? Is it just a trial and error until I find the perfect bun? Pretty much. Typically you have to find a reputable rescue who will work with you, and first you do "speed dating" - your bunny is introduced to 3-5 likely candidates, for about 30 minutes each. Often you can tell within that period if the bonding process will be easy, difficult, or heinous. Once you have a good candidate who looks to be an easy bond, you have to do this elaborate procedure where you house them side-by-side and do daily bonding exercises, which can range from supervised free play to controlled physical contact during stressful or pleasant situations. I have some detailed suggestions somewhere upthread. It can take many, many months to get them to the point where they can live together without supervision - I was working on one pair of mine starting in February, they only got bonded in September. However that's an extreme case. I've bonded 20 or so pairs in the last couple years and they've all "taken" with much less work than that, with just a very few exceptions. But, there is a real reason why you have to be cautious - rabbits can seriously hurt each other, and if they do, it may damage any chance that they ever forgive and forget. Some rescues will even bond them for you - they'll take your bunny on a 2-4 week vacation, and give you back the bonded pair. It's really the bunny who chooses the partner, not the person, so you have to be open-minded about what kind of partner you want for her. So, it's best to do this with a rescue who will hold your hand throughout the process, and who promise that they will take back the partner if the bonding situation just doesn't work out.
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Dec 12, 2007 19:02
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theflosquito: Try offering two litterboxes. Most rabbits prefer to pee in one and sleep in the other. Offer hay in only one box - she might prefer either to pee in her hay and sleep elsewhere, or vice versa. angelicism: Licking and mounting are both dominance actions. Licking is a request to be petted, so if you let her lick you and lick you and lick you, that's her way of saying C'MON PET ME C'MON PET ME, and you're just ignoring it. So she escalates to mounting: SAY UNCLE BITCH SAY IT. The best way to reduce this is to not let a rabbit lick you over and over. If she gets in a couple swipes, that should be your cue to drop what you are doing and pet her. This will reassure her that she is dominant and you will obey the request for petting quickly, without forcing her to hump you into submission. Besides, rabbit kisses are just EW after watching them lick up each other's cecals so it's best to make it stop as quickly as possible. 
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Dec 17, 2007 16:17
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ShadowCatboy posted:Seeing this thread has made me want to get a couple of rabbits in the distant future, so I'd better start planning now. When you have multiple rabbits you DO need multiple litter boxes. However it shouldn't be a big problem. For three rabbits, a 4'x4' pen is probably adequate if they're getting lots of time outside the cage. A box in every corner should still allow plenty of space for stretching out and toys and hidy houses. You'd want to go bigger if you can, of course, or if they are going to be confined most of the time. I like to use rubbermaid under-bed containers or even low-walled cat litter boxes, which are big enough that multiple rabbits can be in the box at the same time. You can also put two smaller boxes side by side, but what fun is that? I just realized that not a single one of my bunnies has just one litterbox. One pair only has two - one haybox to sleep in, and one to pee & poop in. When they are in the sleeping box, they look like a furry loaf of bread, because it's barely big enough for both. Everyone else has 3 or more. My worst offenders are a very pissy pair who have 4 very large boxes despite the fact that neither rabbit is over 2 lbs soaking wet. So yeah, just plan on multiple boxes.
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Dec 18, 2007 21:45
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ShadowCatboy posted:I plan on getting (or better yet, building) a 2-tiered 18"x30" pen for sleeping/housing probably, maybe a bit smaller, but have a larger fenced-off area I can let them out into for romping when I go off to work. I'd prefer to get dwarf rabbits, simply because they're the ones I'm more used to handling and I love them so. That's REALLY small, no matter how much time they spend out of the cage. A cage that small, they may not be able to learn that "this is a cage, with a litterbox over there" and may instead think "this whole enclosed area is a litterbox and I can pees everywhere!!" You also run the risk of cage aggression because it's so small that any time you reach in, you're up in her personal space. And my god do dwarfs ever have a sense of personal space. For two rabbits, the very smallest I would go is this. I have a pair of dwarfs in the larger model (4' long) and I keep a 4'x4' pen looped around the front of the cage so they can get out and bust some exercise. And even that I consider cramped, but we're all SOL till I can get us out of this apartment. Also, dwarf rabbits have MORE energy and require MORE free running time than larger breeds. Many large breeds can't muster the energy to jump a 12" barrier, but I've got a dwarf who regularly leaps about 3' vertical onto the kitchen counter.  ShadowCatboy posted:Do rabbits identify litter boxes as "Hey this box is something for me to pee/poop in" or do they identify things spatially as "Hey this corner is some place for me to pee/poop in"? Both. You offer a box and usually they just know. But sometimes they want boxes in BOTH corners, and then you're hosed. You either give them two boxes, or you spend lots of times wiping up piss. And like I said above, if the cage is so small that they can't get far enough away from their litterbox, the whole cage may imprint as a toilet. ShadowCatboy posted:Also, I'd love to build a lovely little bed with plenty of soft fluffy things (a layer of sponge, covered with a layer of fluffy cotton, and wrapped in cloth so they don't eat any of it). I'm a little worried about the "litterbox is for sleep" behavior though, since I'd hate to go make such a nice bed just to have it be used as a poopy place. Sadly, this ain't gonna work. Bunnies almost universally pick, nibble, and gnaw at their bedding. I even have one bitch who jumped on my bed and ate holes through my sheets and mattress, in about 5 minutes of careless unsupervision. I've REPEATEDLY given lovely fluffy beds and towels to my bunnies, and in 4 years have found ONE pair who won't destroy them on impact. Yes, they do poop in them. I just tip them over and dump the poops in the litterbox once a day. But at least they stay intact, unlike with all the other beds and towels, which have been chewed into pee-soaked lace within days. The worse issue than poop is that many rabbits will pee on soft stuff, too, unless it's fastened down. So a towel-covered platform (the towel secured with big binder clips) is safe, but a folded towel in the middle of the cage gets scrunched, chewed, and peed on. I cannot explain this. Through trial and error I've found that the best cosy soft bed for a bunny is a big rubbermaid container with a lid on, and a hole cut in the side, filled with shredded paper and hay. Some bunnies will pee in them, but for most, the simple act of adding a lid turns it from "toilet" to "den" in their minds. For the ones who pee even in that, I instead offer a large cardboard box with a carpet square in it, and that seems soft enough to enjoy without being soft enough to deface. Your mileage may vary, of course; I've also known plenty of rabbits who can't have anything soft except their litter in the cage, unless I want it peed on.
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Dec 18, 2007 23:47
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ShadowCatboy posted:I'll only be keeping the buns caged in the 5-6 hours I sleep at night, the rest of the time I intend to leave the door open and let them roam free in a 4'x4' pen filled with toys. Then yeah, that's fine. Just keep in mind that bunnies are crepuscular, so their idea of "time to play!" starts about 4am. You might hear disgruntled bar-rattling if they're still boxed up during the morning crazies. ShadowCatboy posted:I'm very surprised to hear that something so small can jump so high though I was SHOCKED the first time Noel got on the counter. She's about 6" tall on all fours, and this is a standard kitchen counter, so it's probably over 3' high. She jumped right onto the stove, too, so I was really loving lucky that I wasn't cooking at the time. The second time, she jumped onto the island, and did so at speed, so she slid right off the other side. That cured her for a while. But then recently, my partner left a stool too close to her pen. She leapt up and on and down and went visiting all around the house. Now she's in the Leith with a 36" pen forming a run out front, and I either cover it with a scrap of coro, or use clothespins to fix an old sheet over top of the pen if I'm not home. The visual barrier seems to be sufficent... That's a shame about your aunt's bunny, but sadly all too common. She has the same ear shape as Noel, although Noel has a more petite face.  Edit for NewsflashJust got an email from my HRS leader. Petsmart is discontinuing their plans to sell rabbits! Some Petsmart Guy posted:We learned a lot from this experience and consider the test a success for that reason. Unfortunately, the Best news all day! alucinor fucked around with this message at 16:04 on Dec 19, 2007 |
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Dec 19, 2007 15:53
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girlscoutdropout posted:Is this in all Petsmarts? As far as we can tell, yes. Here is the press release. Basically, we will continue to see rabbits in the stores until all the ones already on order are sold, but after that, nada. However one HRS person mentioned that some Petsmart stores sold rabbits even before this test. I haven't seen that verified, but if that's the case, they will probably continue to sell them in those stores. Deceptor101 posted:what are they going to do, put a bandaid on it? They'll clean it out and put him on oral or topical antibiotics. Rabbit bites can abscess quite badly. As for the overall situation: I'd recommend taking a step back and starting over. Sometimes a few bad experiences can tarnish the flavor of the relationship, and you need to let them cool off and remind them that Together is Good and Apart is Sad. You will probably not ever see equal bilateral grooming. Typically, only the submissive rabbit grooms the dominant. The dominant may groom occasionally to initiate grooming by the sub. It sounds like Ben has a dominance complex and Annie either just isn't reading the signals or refuses to submit. They just need a cool down and a chance to start fresh. Break them up and give them adjacent housing (preferable where they can nose each other through the bars, separate out-time, and no direct contact for 6-8 weeks. After that, try CONTROLLED contact situations only - place them both in a box and take them for a spin cycle ride, alternating with just petting them both, but do NOT let them interact on their own at all, keep close physical control over both animals. Try to do that twice a day, 20 minutes at a time, for about 2-4 weeks. Then offer them controlled self-directed interaction opportunities: banana on the noses in the bathtub, etc. Again, you want to keep close control of both animals, don't just let them free run together yet. If you see violence in controlled self-directed, go back to controlled contact only. Repeat as needed.
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Dec 19, 2007 19:20
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Cowslips Warren posted:Damnit, now right as I have convinced my mom that no, we cannot split up the rabbits, Cowslip goes on a bender. Remind me if they are both altered? You Are:  TotalBiscuit posted:Cats in my experience are, quite frankly, fickle, irritating and often spiteful. They're not particularly loving animals, and pretty much know how to exploit you for what they want at the time and then wander off looking disinterested. This could also exactly describe rabbits. Neither my most loving cat nor my most affectionate rabbit would give a poo poo for me if I would just invent an automatic litterbox which dispenses food and is also a petting machine which projects a square of sunlight onto the floor.
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Dec 26, 2007 17:34
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Cowslips Warren posted:Mo is, Cowslip is not yet. Problem solved if I get her done? Hah. Yes, exactly. I cannot stress enough how many rabbit behavioral problems are solved by spay/neuter. Get her spayed and she'll be back to normal inside of 6 weeks.
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Dec 26, 2007 20:54
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Cowslips Warren posted:"It's a girl...but it has a penis."  Just for my curiosity, who told you he was a girl, and did anyone else ever confirm/deny the initial finding? I collect stories of people who misinform owners about an animal's sex, and need to know which gun(s) to notch. An ex-vet of mine once told me that he couldn't neuter my rabbit because she was a girl. I had to show him the balls. God that was embarrassing on both sides. He was a darling old man, emphasis on old, and thankfully he retired with still a fair amount of dignity a few years later. Keep in mind that boy-boy bonding can sometimes be more difficult than boy-girl. It sounds like they may be young enough that it won't matter, but I'd advise you read up on difficult bonding situations.
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Dec 27, 2007 15:44
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DisneyPrincess posted:To contribute to the cage conversation: what is the best place to buy a cage for a huge rabbit? Don't buy one, make one! I have two huge rabbits who live together - a 12 lb New Zealand, an 8 lb lop-NZ mix. Their old pen was just under 8'x9':  It's made with two dog exercise pens and two 4'x8' sheets of coroplast for the base. Their new one (we're moving in just a couple weeks) will be about 7.5"x7.5", because I'm going to fold the coroplast up 3" to hold in stray poops, and using cube grids instead of pens for the walls. Duct tape will seal the overlapping edges of the coro so they can't nibble on them. Total cost: $16 for the coroplast and $15 for the grids. 
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Jan 9, 2008 17:07
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Melicious posted:My bunny has never been big on jumping onto things unless there was food involved. I've seen this to be true as well. Most of my larger bunnies never jump at all. I have an 8lb girl named Jeannie who normally is contained by only a 12" high barrier. She simply has no interest in jumping, it seems. However, one day I made the mistake of sitting on the bed to open the craisins. WHUMP. Eight pounds of excited rabbit flew 3' into the air like she was born to it. Her memory is good, too. The next morning at 4am I got another WHUMP as she came back up to see if I would give her craisins for breakfast. Unfortunately I screamed like a little girl to have that much rabbit land on me while I was deeply asleep and she immediately leapt back down. I think I traumatized her as much as she traumatized me. 
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Jan 10, 2008 16:09
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DisneyPrincess posted:I think I saw that about wire cubes. I couldn't find them at Walmart so I think I'll try Staples or something. I definitely like the grids better, and in fact I use them almost exclusively now. Here is a crappy mockup of the new cage Roo & BunBun will be in shortly. I've never seen the grids at Staples, but they should definitely have them at Target. Target's packaging looks like this:
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Jan 10, 2008 18:33
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quote:fleas Fleas FLEAS Rabbits can certainly get fleas and there's no reason not to apply treatment preventatively if you're putting them into a situation where they might be exposed. Do NOT use any type of flea shampoo. Even something from a vet. Shampooing a rabbit is a BAD idea and can be far more toxic to rabbits than to cats or dogs. Do NOT use FRONTLINE. It's highly toxic to rabbits. DO use Revolution (selamectin) or Advantage (imidacloprid). Personally, I prefer Revolution, because it has a well-established clinical trials record in rabbits, even though it's still technically an off-label use. For Revolution, the dose is 6mg/kg, and the adult cat size tube has a strength of 60mg/mL, containing .75 mL. So you apply .1mL per 1000 grams of rabbit. If your rabbit weighs 1kg, the tube will treat him 7.5 times. I typically do a monthly preventative treatment when I my rescue is doing intakes; once every six months if I'm not doing intakes, and once every two weeks for 6 weeks if I'm trying to kill an active infestation. Finally, BUY IT FROM A VET. You really can't be certain what you're getting or whether it's expired when you buy online. Your vet should sell you one tube for about $14-$20, it's cheaper than a visit to the emergency vet.
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Jan 14, 2008 15:48
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Vaishino posted:I figured if any behavioural stuff was gonna pop up it would have already happened, and this didn't start until just a few days ago. Quite the reverse, actually. Bunnies in a new environment are typically on their "best behavior" - they are cautious because they don't know what predators there might be, or what other rabbits might be in the territory about to kick their rear end. Behavioral problems like spray marking and digging typically crop up once the rabbit has become comfortable and is starting to establish the territory as "theirs". The number one complaint I hear from people surrendering a rabbit is "but he was so sweet at first! Now he's unmanageable!" And the number one fix is spay/neuter. Seriously, an unneutered rabbit is a terror. Get it done ASAP. Edit: I neutered an 8 year old who had no grasp of litterbox usage. He was picture perfect within 60 days of surgery.
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Jan 16, 2008 16:46
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theflosquito posted:My little guy Pickle is going through a heavy (HEAVY) shed. Every day I spend a bit of time brushing and picking out the extra fur. Now he has lost all of his guard hair on his back. Will he also lose his undercoat, or will he only shed the longer hair. As long as it's clumps with NO BARE SPOTS remaining, yes that's normal. But if he's losing clumps with bare skin showing, there's a problem. My NZW Roo has incredible sheds - during a shed I can literally get two handfuls out with even the lightest touch. Pity it's too short to sell to the yarn-makers.
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Jan 23, 2008 16:14
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Parkaboy posted:Is this why they go after cords? I've never understood the appeal of pieces of plastic as chew things, unless its some latent bunny instinct to chew things that look like vines and roots.I haven't had a bunny for a very very long time now, but our cords were constantly under siege from bunny teeth, I jsut didn't know WHY. Right on the money - cords have a lovely soft-on-the-outside, crisp-on-the-inside texture, exactly like the stemmy part of a plant. They don't understand that they're not nipping something deliciously edible. Even a rabbit who actively chews on other toys (willow baskets or cardboard boxes) will find it hard to resist the allure of cords, because it's based on a different drive.
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Feb 4, 2008 18:24
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Very nice! One suggestion: move the hay mangers, food bowls, and the litterboxes up next to the divider, so that they eat, browse, and poop side by side. More bonding opportunities that way!
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Feb 13, 2008 19:17
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