Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran



:siren: Mod edit: :siren:

corgski posted:

From this point forward, if anyone who has professional experience with this field sees something dangerous being suggested hit report and it'll be at minimum a six, possibly more if it's something really egregious or a repeated issue.

Asking stupid questions is fine, giving stupid answers is not.

:siren: End mod edit :siren:

I've seen a bunch of simple-to-complex home wiring posts pop up in different places. These things will be asked again, so why not make a thread for them?

If you have a question about how to wire a receptacle, switch, dimmer, lamp, ceiling fan, garage door opener, etc., post it here. I'll put up some basic stuff sometime soon.

I'm a professional electrician with the code book on my desk, and I know there are at least a couple of other people with the code book handy, so we won't steer you wrong.

Basic information:
In wiring, white is neutral, green is ground, any other color is hot.

On a receptacle, the long terminal is neutral, the short one is hot.

If you're looking at a device (switch, receptacle, etc) then the brass screw gets a hot wire, the white screw gets a neutral and the green screw gets a ground. If there are two brass screws, either or both could be hot. If there's a black screw, then it may also be hot.

In a lamp socket, the screw shell must be connected to the neutral conductor. If no ground conductor is included in the lamp cord, then any metal parts of the lamp must also be connected to the neutral. This is why polarized plugs are important. If the lamp is wired properly and your plug or receptacle is not, then all metallic parts of your lamp are hot. It's this way with anything that has a two-prong plug; if your plug is messed up, then the metal parts of the whatever may have voltage on them.

Cable numbering! If you see a number like 12/2 or 6/3, then that's the number of "normally current-carrying conductors" in the cable, one of which is the neutral. So, if you cut open a 12/2, you will see a white, a black, and bare copper?! What? Yes, cables today also have a ground, but it's typically not specified in the numbering. So your cable is really a 12/2 w/ground. Sometimes you can get 12/2 w/ insulated ground, in which case you have black, white, and green.

x/2 has black and white. x/3 has black, white, and red. x/4 has black, white, red, and blue. All of these include a ground, typically. Type NM is usually bare, but other types the ground is green.

There are also new strange cable types, like 2-12/2. That's a black, a red, a white, a white with a red stripe, and a green. It's for the new code requiring separate neutrals for each circuit.

If you want to convert old 2-prong outlets to 3-prong without running new wire, install a GFCI. It won't be grounded, but it will prevent lethal shocks. The GFCI you buy will have the stickers you need, "GFCI PROTECTED" and "UNGROUNDED." Don't use cheater plugs.
kid sinister wrote a 3 prong upgrade post that should clear up any confusion.

If you don't think grounding is important, check this post from movax about why grounds are good and electricity doesn't care about your fleshy saltwater sack.

If you're trying to figure out what circuit something is on, plug a radio into that circuit. Turn it up loud enough that you can hear it from your panel. Turn off breakers. When the radio stops making noise, you've likely found the correct circuit. If doing a large place or somewhere where it's unwise to shut stuff off at random, I use a circuit finder from Harbor Freight. It's not perfect, but it's good enough for $20 (frequently on sale for $10). It will usually get you within a couple of breakers, or at least on the right phase.

How to install a cut-in box:
  1. Buy your box(es). This so you know what size hole you have to cut. Get whatever appropriate connectors are necessary. The blue plastic boxes usually have integral cable clamps.
  2. Figure out where your box is going to go. Pay attention to your studs.
  3. Put your box against the wall and trace around it with a pencil. It's OK if you trace a bit large; as long as your faceplate (or an oversize {or 2x oversize}) will cover the hole, it doesn't matter too much what it looks like.
  4. Cut the hole. Sawzall, that multimaster (or harbor freight equivalent), keyhole saw, dremel, steak knife, whatever. Cut the horizontal first just to make sure you miss the stud.
  5. Slide the box in the hole to make sure it's going to fit, along with your connectors and whatnot.
  6. Run your wire. Leave way, way too much hanging out. Wire is cheap, having to fish more wire because yours isn't long enough sucks. Two feet hanging out isn't excessive.
  7. Install your connectors on your cable, slide the cable into the box, then the box in the wall.
  8. Apply all appropriate fasteners to secure the box. Screw to stud, tighten the screws on the wings, bend the metal tabs, etc.
  9. Install devices.

The 2017 NEC
This is "the code book" everyone talks about when saying something is "up to code." Archive.org lost the NEC codebook, but the NFPA has it available on their site. You do have to register an account to view it though, plus you can't print it. The NFPA sends you junk mail ALL THE TIME, so register with a throwaway email address.
Thanks to kid sinister for the link, and for reminding me that it's been ANOTHER three years on this thread.
Oh look ANOTHER THREE YEARS!

Somebody fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Jul 9, 2022

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


moana posted:

I'd like to know about replacing outlets - we're buying a house with old outlets that are apparently out of date and sagging, so we need to replace them with new GFCI ones. I've found a couple of tutorials (like http://www.easy2diy.com/cm/easy/diy_ht_index.asp?page_id=35720244) that say we should have a circuit tester to make sure power is off, power works after fixing, etc. How crucial is that? Can't we just plug something in to see if the power is turned off?

If a wire is loose then something plugged in won't work, but the power will be on. By ensuring the right breaker is off, you can feel relatively safe, but a tester is so cheap and so worth not setting something on fire or stopping your heart that it's worth it.

grumpy posted:

I currently have a wall oven and a cooktop. Each has its own 30 amp breaker in the main breaker panel. I am considering replacing both with a free standing range. The ones I have looked at require a 50 amp circuit.

Could I remove both the 30 amp breakers and replace them with 1 50 amp breaker? I know I would need to run new wire to the new range. What size is required by code?

Thanks for the timely thread!

Yes. You're going to need 50A wiring, which is #6 AWG copper. The new wire will need (probably) 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Lucid Smog posted:

<wall-o-text>
Lastly, I want to install a fan in a box that just has a light right now. The light is on the same circuit as another light and are controlled by two switches (as in two switches both control both lights). I want to remove the second light from the switch circuit. I am pretty sure this will require running some new conduit to it. This fan will be on my top floor. I live in a cape cod house, so this is also my attic. I have access to a crawl space where there are outlets fed by some old looking FMC, haven't looked at the wires yet. Can I just branch off of a duplex outlet inside of the box or do I need a separate junction box before the outlet? I gather from reading that I would be okay just tossing the new FMC through the 4-5" of clearance between the room insulation and roof until I got to the triangular void at the top (which I have no way to get in to, aside from taking out the ceiling drywall). Then it would just be a hide and seek game to get it pushed over to the hole. I would probably put the new set of switches above the duplex I branched off of. Is this a reasonable approach?

Thanks!

1: Installing a ground rod is easy and simple and shouldn't require any permits. Just buy the rod, drive it, and run #6 solid copper to the ground bar on your panel. Make sure the ground bar and neutral bar are bonded. While you've got the #6 solid, run a piece (preferably the same piece without breaks) over to a cold water ground clamp on your cold water pipe.

As for that last part: pictures.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Local Yokel posted:

I replaced a few switches today. I've got three switches in one place (three-gang?) and replaced all three. Well, the drywall is pretty ugly around the hole, and some genius removed too much of it. This makes getting the switches lined up and at the proper angle difficult, because one of them wants to tighten down half a centimeter too deep and at an angle. The other switches tighten against the drywall, as the box is inset a little. What do I do to get that third switch to look right?

If it is a triple-gang box, then if two of your switches tighten up, just put the cover plate on and tighten the third switch against that. The other two will make the third one line up.

If you've already done this and SOMEONE ELSE can tell it's messed up, then go back and look at it. Trust me, you will forever know what's behind that plate, but you're the only one in the world that can tell the difference.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


The reason for switch prices is supply and demand. A typical house has 100 single-pole switches (a case), 10 3-ways (a box) and 1 4-way (1). They all cost about the same to make, but they make two orders of magnitude more single-pole switches, so the cost comes down.

If you want to control something from one point, you need a single pole. Two points is 2 3-ways. N points is 2 3-ways and N-2 4-ways. Single-pole switches are wired with 2-conductor cable (12/2 or 14/2). Note that there's a ground in the cable, so there are actually three wires in it, but it's still 2-conductor cable. Everything else is with 3-conductor cable (12/3 or 14/3).

Take a lesson from what you're doing now and always run 12/3 from one of your switches to any ceiling lighting box where someone at some point may conceivably want to have a light and a ceiling fan on separate switches. You can always leave the unused wire unconnected.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Ok, first things first: conduit underground. It's against code to put romex in conduit underground. Romex cannot be used in wet locations, and that's what underground counts as (even in conduit). So you're going to be using UF (underground feeder) wire anyway, which is rated for direct burial.

If you can pull the old stuff out, use it to pull in some cable with more conductors. If there's 12/2 in there now, pull in 12/4. If it's 10/2 or 8/2, pull in 10/3 or 8/3.

Next: I had a 60A 240V tankless water heater for the whole house (1200sqft) and it worked fabulously. It would throttle power, take water as hot as 88F, and run all day. It was truly wonderful. If I had to do it on a much larger house, I'd go one of two ways: if there were hot-water floor heat, I'd use a tank heater and a recirculating pump; if not, then a 30A 240V on-demand heater mounted under each sink and a 40A 240V on-demand in the shower(s). That's a lot of wiring, but it's small and reasonably cheap, and you only have half as many water lines.

Upgrading services: ask your power company. Services only come in in 200A, and getting a new one is pretty pricey. It is something you can do, since any half-trained monkey can do residential electric, but it is way more complicated and the service entrance, meter bases, panels, and grounding should probably be done professionally. Once the panels are up, the rest you can do.

Finally, circuiting. When I rewired my house, I read the code book. It said: bathrooms on their own dedicated GFI circuit, two general kitchen appliance circuits with nothing else (no lights, etc) and bedrooms on AFCIs. So that's what I did. I ran two cirucits to the plugs in the kitchen, one circuit to the bathroom, then one circuit to each room in the house. That way, it was easy to turn off "master bedroom" or "living room." Until a room gets really big (10 outlets plus a bunch of lights) a single 20A should do you fine. If you've got space in the panel go for it.

Fridges, disposals, and microwaves are commonly getting dedicated circuits, as are A/C units. Ovens must have a dedicated circuit. That, with the two kitchens, the bathrooms, and the bedrooms on AFCIs, adds up to a lot of circuits really quickly; more quickly with one circuit (two-pole!) per dedicated on-demand water heater.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Slugworth posted:

Own a home in a Chicago suburb (Berwyn). Looking for some guidance on code.

My detached garage is currently fed by 14g wire on a 15 amp breaker through a 1/2" conduit. My plan is to setup a sub-panel in the garage so that I can run some fairly power-needy welding equipment. I want the sub-panel to be a 60 amp service at 220v. Essentially, I'm wondering two things. What gauge wire do I need to run from my house panel to the garage, and is the 1/2" conduit going to be up to code, or do I need to dig it up and use a larger diameter conduit? I would love to avoid digging up my yard, obviously.

If you're running conduit the whole way (and in Chicago, I'm 99% sure you are) then you can use normal wire (THHN, etc). You're going to need #6 for a 60A subpanel. 3 #6 and 1 #10 ground requires 3/4" conduit minimum, with 1" probably being an easier pull.

As long as you have the ditch in the ground, put another 1" pipe in there just in case you want some phone lines or something.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


The wikipedia page on "electricity distribution" has a much better picture than the one I was about to draw.

In general, there's 3-phase power coming into a neighborhood substation, usually at a reasonably high voltage (15-38kVAC, 60Hz). It's stepped down with banks of transformers connected delta-delta to around 4160V. One phase goes to each residential street, where small (75kVA) transformers step the voltage down to 120/240 single phase.

If there's industrial/commercial applications, then two or three of the phases are sent down the poles. 3-phase power to small commercial buildings (a bank, etc) is typically supplied from the street by 3 transformers, one of which is center-tapped, so there's 3-phase 240V with two 120V legs off of one of the delta legs.

Larger commercial areas get 3 phase power connected in a delta-wye to have 277/480 power for the "high voltage" applications, like lighting and air conditioning. Most commercial lights are run at 277V. Air handlers, recirculating pumps, and the like are usually 3-phase 480. Transformers in the building change the 480 into 120/208 with another delta-wye transformer. Delta-wye is also known as delta-star.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Lucid Smog posted:

edit: I have a question about wiring in a U.S. home. I have a 10/3 NM, 12/2 NM, and 12/2 MC cable. I have an unfinished basement with a cinderblock foundation. I want to put some outlets on the walls. I plan to run a 4"x1"x4' board from the ceiling joists where the NM wiring is run down the cinderblock wall and fasten it with masonry screws. Then I want to mount a handy box to said piece of wood and run a cable to it. Can I just run MC cable and secure it properly, or does it have to be in EMT or Schedule 80 PVC up to the joists? Can I run MC cable EMT/PVC (I have more of this than 12/2 NM). I am guessing I cannot just staple NM to the wood as that is pretty exposed.

You can run NM exposed if you want, but you can't staple it to the bottoms of the joists. If you don't want to drill holes in your joists you can run it in EMT which would be strapped to the joists. NM cable must be secured within 12" of any box and within every 4.5 feet thereafter. Run between holes in joists counts as supported.

You're going to be doing almost exactly the same thing with MC anyway. It has to be protected exactly like NM, or run exposed.

The whole point of putting it deep in holes is so sheetrock screws don't hit it when sheetrock goes up. If you're not going to finish the basement, go ahead and run it exposed down the walls and at least 1.5" above the face of the joist if run parallel or through holes at least 1.5" away from the edge if run perpendicular. You can also put notches in the joists and put a "nail plate" over the notch, but I don't know of anyone that really likes notching joists.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Fire Storm posted:

God, I think they also wired my basement.

Was working in my basement and saw a cut section of fabric insulated wire (like what you have in the first image). I tested it and sure enough, it was live. THAT got removed very quickly.

Also bumping my question from a week ago:

You're talking about running a separate service. What's the rating on your house panel?

The power company will be happy to do anything they can charge you for, so they'll say yes. You can probably get a 200A service there at your garage for your house and garage combined. Meter base into a 100A/200A circuit breaker enclosure, one of which goes to your house, the other into your garage.

This will probably require the services of a professional to come out and put eyes on the place and tell you what you can or can't do.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Fire Storm posted:

Yeah, a separate service. It just seems cheaper/easier than running from my house out to the garage (deep lot and the garage is not close to the house).

Currently the house is only 60a service (The city inspector saw the 60a main breaker and 40a going to the stove and said "Oh, 100a! That's code!" and I wish I was joking). I have all the stuff ready to convert the house to 200a (but I just haven't), and am prepared to put in a 120a service to the garage.

I mean, if I have to have all the power delivered to the house then bring it back to the garage, I can do that, but it almost seems better to just have it go to the garage and then to the house, but that's just me being practical and trying to save copper, I guess.

Draw a picture of your lot, including your current service drop, and I can probably come up with something.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Lucid Smog posted:

How can I trace circuits without having them be live?

All of the old wiring in my house is in some sort of corrugated metal shroud (looks like AC/MC) and the actual wiring is two-wire cloth (well, looks like cloth) insulated.

I have a conctactless voltage probe but it doesn't work through the metal shroud.

I am not interested in getting electrocuted, but I can't think of any other ways to figure out which run goes to which outlet/switch and where the power is coming from. I was planning on opening up the junction boxes in my basement and probing the wires with the contactless voltage probe while having my wife flip some switches to try and figure it out. Later work will probably see me turning off the breaker and actually disconnecting some of the junctions so I can see which direction the circuit is going.

Safer/better options would be appreciated.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/categories/test-instruments/electrical-power-testing/circuit-tracers

Circuit tracer. They sell them pretty much anywhere you can buy electrical tools. They can be a little tricky to use, but are well worth it even if you only use it once to map out your whole house. While you're at it, get a 2-prong plug to socket base converter (looks like a light bulb base with an outlet in it). That way, you can plug the tracer into your lights to trace them as well. Lights and outlets may be on radically different and nonlogical circuits.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


chryst posted:

These seem to trace from an outlet to the breaker. Is there something like this that'll trace the wires inside the walls, so I don't have to tear out drywall to figure out where each branch ends up going when I want to run a new 3-conductor wire?

Short answer is: not cheaply. Your eyes and common sense are the best bet. If two outlets are on the same wall, the cable probably doesn't go into the attic to get between them. Just abandon the cable in the wall; it's not going to hurt anything. It's secured to the framing anyway, so you probably won't be able to use it to pull new wire in.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Lucid Smog posted:

The Amprobe ECB50A appears to serve this function. It was on the Grainger website too, but the site I linked is cheaper and has links for the instruction manual and datasheet.

Is it not really going to work, babyeatingpsychopath?

I'm tempted to order it tonight, though I am suspect that it will work through AC/MC conduit as metal has a way of shielding low frequency signals.

I'm not going to say it won't work, but I'm inclined to believe your suspicions that it won't work on that cable, which is probably BX. The tester like that (I think it was a Greenlee) didn't work if the cable passed through a metal stud. It would find the cable until it went through the stud, then locate the whole stud with nothing past that. The transmitter says 8-10kHz; it may sufficiently energize cable armor to work fine. For $70, you have a really good circuit tracer if nothing else.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Atrus posted:

How possible/smart/stupid is it to convert a ceiling light figure to a plug-in?

My apartment doesn't have wiring for a ceiling light fixture and only one standard wall outlet that's keyed to the light switch. I'm currently using a floor lamp to light the room, but I would like to use a ceiling light of some form.

Is it safe and possible for me to run a cord from the wall outlet, then hardwire that cord to whatever lighting figure I get? If so, what's the safest way possible? (Besides doing the wiring before plugging it all in.)

Still undecided on what fixture, but I need to know if it's at least possible. Thanks in advance!

NEC 400.8: Flexible Cords and cables: Uses Not permitted
(1) As a substitute or the fixed wiring of a structure.
(4) Where attached to building surfaces.

So, no. Your only way is to figure out how to get wire from the switch on your wall to your ceiling or to use a floor lamp plugged into a switched outlet on the wall (which is OK by code [210.70(A)(1)])

babyeatingpsychopath fucked around with this message at 09:00 on May 25, 2009

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


fast5c posted:

I tried reading through the thread for a quick answer but I just got a headache doing it. I'm definitely not an electrician!

I wanted to hook up a dimmer switch for the new baby's room.

House has three wires going to the current switch. White wire is on top, black wire is on the bottom and the ground is hooked to the screw the switch is held in place with.

Dimmer is a Leviton decora. It has four wires. Green and red wires out one hole and black and red wires out the other hole. The red wire with the black is labled for a 3 way switch.

What do I hook to what so I don't burn the dang house down? Thanks!

If the switch is wired properly, then white goes to black, red goes to black, black and red gets a wire nut, and green goes to green.

If it doesn't work, swap the white and black house wires [white to red, black to black].

Whatever you do, put black tape around that white wire. It may be your hot wire coming in, and should be marked.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


fishhooked posted:

The chimney runs to the attic so it is sealed off. The vertical run would be 30' or so (2 floors)

The code says NM may be run unsupported when fished between access spaces and supporting is impractical. So, you're good. I'd put a j-box at the top and bottom so there are cable clamps as close as possible to the run. If you don't run anything else in the chimney, you could even claim it as a "raceway" and NM in raceways doesn't need support.

Lucid Smog posted:

I know that I need 40% fill for 12/2 NM cable. How big of a hole do I have to drill through my joists for it? Is 3/4" sufficient?

edit: Also I am under the impression that I can run NM cable along an unfinished basement wall to receptacles and such. But I am not allowed to run NM (unprotected) along the ceiling joists of said unfinished basement. What's the reasoning here, assuming I'm even right? I feel that I am much more likely to gently caress up cables at eye level than ones over my heard. Seems like the ones on the wall need protection too.

3/4" is fine for 1 or 2 NM.

The reasoning, as I've heard it, is that you may finish the basement, so to avoid having to explain to the drywallers not to screw everything up (which they'll do anyway), you just can't run wire on the bottoms unless its 3 #8s or bigger (2 #6s). It's a 2005 code change, so fairly recent. You see older houses with all the wire stapled in the basement ceiling frequently.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Aturaten posted:

So, I'm on knob and tube wiring. I've attached a picture of what looks to be our deathtrap of a breaker box. Is it feasible for someone with little wiring experience to re-wire his house (after researching how, of course), or should I just contract out? If so, could someone give me a very estimate cost for a 1940s, 4 bedroom, 2 bath house? (not sure about the exact sq footage).

I maintain that any idiot can do residential wiring based on the idiots I see with contractor's licenses doing residential wiring. That said, be very careful, get your permits, and get the power company to pull your meter out before you start and very little can go wrong.

Not knowing anything about the house, a ballpark estimate for a whole-house rewire in a place like that is probably on the order of 7-10 grand. It is a whole lot of work. You can probably do it yourself in a 3-day weekend for less than 2000 in tools and material.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


RedReverend posted:

Whoops wrong one. This is the correct way to wire it.

I suspect red goes to the light and black goes to the fan.

Black from the bottom to black on the switch. Black on the switch to red. Black on the bottom to black on the top.

See if that works.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Ahz posted:

Any tips or things to look out for on this kitchen pot light to socket change?

I have a single pot light wired to a switch that I plan to change into a 2-gang box with 4 outlets in the ceiling. The plugs are for low voltage cabinet lights that will be installed in my new ceiling upper cabinets.

Now I intent to cut open the ceiling and take out the fixture and then add in a double gang box for the plugs. I forget which way I should wire up the plugs, are all the neutral wires twisted together in the box and the hot wires daisy chained through each item? I plan to look this up, but any tips would be helpful.

How big of a hole should I put in the top cabinet for access to the outlets? Should it be just wide enough for the 4 outlets to be visible or something bigger?

Cut a 4" square hole in the cabinet top and use a box extension ring to make your devices mount flush with the top of the cabinet, then just use a normal faceplate.

Each receptacle should have three wires coming off of it and all the wires get connected together in the box. No daisy chains, please. It makes things so very annoying when they eventually fail. Since you're going to have a full 4" square box with extension ring, there's no reason not to have 8" of wire on each receptacle. As long as it all mashes into the box, you're fine; it is also especially annoying to have to replace a failed device and have BARELY enough wire left over to pull the thing forward enough to get to the screws. Code says 6" of wire from the entry point or 3" past the front of the box, whichever is more; our local code says 6" past the front of the box, which is good. Make sure to ground the box if you're using a metallic box (probably not).

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Dexter_Sinister posted:

I'm having trouble with an outside pole-mounted light fixture on a circuit with an outside GFCI plug.

Your conduit and splice box are full of water. Underground conduit always gets full of water. Dig up the junction box, install some direct burial splices, rebury the box. You could also dig up the box, drain and dry it, fill all conduit entries with approved potting compound (RTV, silicone, etc), then close it back up. Ideally, you'd dig up the box, repair the pipe, and repull the wire to have a continuous run. Insulation doesn't care AT ALL about water, but splices do.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


GreenTrench posted:

YAs grover said, you cannot feed a 70A subpanel with a 100A breaker. I'd recommend this instead. Type QO breakers are incredibly common.

When you go to home depot, don't get the Square-D homeline; they're crappily made. The QO or Siemens panels are much better for only marginally more.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


bgack posted:

I have an old bathroom that I'm going to replace the vanity (which also doubles as the light for the room and has the only outlet), add a GFCI outlet in the wall and a light fixture above the mirror. I'd also like to add a ceiling fan (currently there isn't one). The house is a ranch, so I have access to the attic above the bathroom, and should be able to find a place for the exhaust vent pretty easily.

I think I want to do a three way switch so the light and fan can be operated independently. So I will add a wire from the switch to the fan. The downside of this is that the outlet will only work when the light switch is turned on, but to remedy this would be a lot more work (I think) so I think it's not worth it.

I have help from my dad who has done this kind of wiring before, but is this something that one would typically need any kind of permit for? I don't need conduit or anything like this for the wire to the fan, do I? Anything else I should look out for?

I don't know about permits in your locale; usually they have a minimum dollar amount before a permit is required, but you can get one for any project if you'd like the piece of mind that comes from having an inspector look at it and say "you did a really good job."

If you're pulling new wire up to the fan, you might as well go all the way and pull new wire to your outlet/vanity and have an outlet that's always on. Some GFCIs can get finicky about their power going on and off.

Depending on what breaker is in your panel, get a 50' roll of 12/3 or 14/3. 12/3 if you have a 20 amp breaker, 14/3 if there's a 15 amp.

12/3 has four conductors in it: Black, Red, White, and bare for ground. Get two switches; a "3-way" almost certainly isn't what you want here. After turning off the appropriate breaker, connect the black wire from the panel to the top screw of each switch.


Run cable from one switch to the fan; connect the red wire in that to the bottom screw of a switch; white to white, bare to bare. In the fan, white to white, bare to bare/green, red to whatever's left. Note that the black wire is unused, trim it flush with the cable jacket inside your switch box and fan.

Going to the vanity, black goes to black, red goes to the bottom screw of the other switch, white to white, bare to bare. In the vanity, red goes to the light, black goes to the black from your outlet cable, white to white, bare to bare/green. The red wire in the cable from the vanity to the outlet is unused, so trim it flush with the jacket.

Most electricians will have 12/2 and 12/3 for a run like this, but buying two 25' rolls (one of 12/2 and one of 12/3) is probably going to be more expensive than one 50' roll of 12/3.

Inside your attic, any wires that cross joists must go through holes bored at least 1 1/4" away from the top of the joist. Most people use a 7/8" hole for a couple runs of Romex; anything in the 3/4 to 1" range should be fine (depending on what you have).

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


bgack posted:

thanks bep, this is helpful info. I'm not sure I follow the 'as long as you are pulling wire up to the fan' with wiring the outlet to always be on. I guess I will see how it's wired when I demo the old vanity, but I think the only wire running to the old vanity is coming from the switch. So I'd have to run a separate hot wire down (or up?) to the new outlet. I didn't know GFCI outlets could be finicky with on/off power but obviously I'd rather have it be on all the time.

In ranch-style houses, almost everything is run through the walls. If there's not an existing exhaust fan, you're going to have to pull wire to it to get it to work. Since you're already in the attic with a spool of wire, it doesn't make any sense NOT to do the project as you want it, instead of having to compromise JUST to use somebody else's questionable wiring. Just leave the wire abandoned in the wall; it'll be fine there as long as it's not hooked up on either end.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


IsaacNewton posted:

Hello, me again with questions regarding wiring up my garage. (still)

I have a Federal 64 slots 200 amp panel in my house. (I wish I had the 40 since 64 is way too many but I disgress) It's mounted upside down to allow for the counter outside and such.

Two questions; Is It okay to bring in any more wire from the bottom (normally the top) with connectors and all or is that forbidden? Is the metal part protecting the naughty bits (the mains) required by code? Can I leave the shield out If the first question is 'yes' and I have wire going through there?

In the best of worlds I'd have enough wire to go through the hole at the top (which is normally the bottom.. sigh) but I'm 4 feet short.

Hopefully the solution isn't the pull that wire out and feed a new one. :(
I don't know about Federal in Canada, but Federal Pacific in the US is electrician-speak for "house-consuming electrical fire deathtrap in a box."

If there are still available knockouts on the bottom, it should be fine to punch another one out and feed a wire in from the bottom. The "metal part protecting the naughty bits" is called the deadfront, because if you remove it and touch something, you're dead. US Code says you have to have that installed, Canadian code probably does as well.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


IsaacNewton posted:

There's 3 free knockout big enough to pass my 1" 1/2 wire through. My problem is the dead front doesn't give a whole lot of room to have wire go past it, and the wires might be touching a sharp edge of the dead front.

If there's room, go ahead and put it in. If it "might" touch a sharp edge, put some protection on the edge. I see you've got some 2ga. What flavor of cable is this? You can usually bend the cable pretty well and use a bunch of layers of tape on sharpish edges without any problem.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


IsaacNewton posted:

Thank you, that sound a lot more likely to pass inspection than tape on sharp edges. (no offense babyeatingpsychopath)

Do you happen to know what the heck a SOL is?

You say what you may, we got our green tag yesterday.

SOL means solid wire, as in, that split bolt is not rated for stranded wire.

poopcutter posted:

I am working on a small electrical project using 12/2 NM-B indoor non-metallic cable. As part of this I need to somehow attach three disconnects to a length of wire, so that they are arranged:

wire->disconnect->wire->disconnect->wire->disconnect.

I have no problems hooking up disconnects to the end of the wire, but how can I hook up a disconnect in the middle of a wire? Is there some online resource that has tutorials on basic wiring? I haven't been able to find any examples similar to this situation in the sites that I have found.

Cut the wire in the middle, now you have two ends? What do you mean by "disconnect," exactly?

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran



Ah. Those are usually called "terminals." If you're not drawing any serious current with this, I guess they could work, but historically, something like this is used for rapid disconnecting means at the ends of electrical wiring.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Mister Kingdom posted:

I have an idea for a smallish accent lamp that would have multiple sockets (maybe 3 to 5) and use smaller bulbs, but have just a single switch.

I've googled for wiring diagrams, but haven't found anything.

How would I do this?

Also, would there be a big issue if I use copper tubing for said lamp?

A picture of what you want to do would be helpful, but at some point you're going to need a place for all your wires from the sockets to be connected together.

If you're using copper tubing, then make sure whatever plug you get has a wide prong and a narrow prong so you can't put it in an outlet backwards. The wide prong on your plug gets connected to all the shells. The short prong on your plug goes to the switch, then from the switch to the centers of all your sockets.

If your lamp cord has two different color wires, then white is shells (long prong) and copper is centers (short prong).

I have attached an incredibly crappy picture that should illustrate what I've just said. Note that real lamp cord is mostly stuck together for all of its length but peels apart fairly easily.

Only registered members can see post attachments!

babyeatingpsychopath fucked around with this message at 04:15 on Aug 9, 2009

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


leseak posted:

From what I have read, using 14-2 NM-B is what I would want to use, correct? So from what I have read I want to use a GFCI plug at the start of the string and then I can run as many off of that as I would like?
If you're running new wire from old, then probably 14/2 is fine. I would reccomend, however, since the walls are open and everything, to just run all new 12/2 and, if your budget allows, replace the old panel.

quote:

Any reason why half of my house is wired to the new box and the other half is wired to the old box? The old box has things like bedrooms/lights and the new box has things like the garage panel, heaters and range..
It's easier and simpler to add on than to replace entirely. It looks like the new panel has the meter base in it; this means it's got a main breaker. I'd recommend running new wire (12/2) from breakers in the new panel to the devices powered by the old panel and remove the old panel entirely.

If that's too much work, then it should be easier to take the guts out of the old panel, run 4 circuits worth from the new panel to old and make splices in the old panel box, then put a blank cover on the box (don't drywall over it). This is just to get rid of the fuses.

But really, since your walls are open, now is the perfect time to rewire everything up to current code. This means AFCI in bedrooms, GFCI practically everywhere else, and the proper number of circuits for kitchens/bathrooms/etc.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Ferris Bueller posted:

Probably the best part of this is I would find older mistakes next to new proper(for the time,) fixes, but who ever knew what they were doing decided to just leave the blatantly wrong problems the way they were in the same work box.

If I had thought to take more pictures during my house rewiring I would have had ton of material on how to burn your house down.

That's why I made this thread; when rewiring my house, I found the previous homeowner's amazing errors. The thing that really convinced me that no wire would be reused is when every time the fridge would kick on, there'd be this weird humming noise from the attic. Eventually, the fridge stopped coming on. In the attic, I found a metal 4" square box that was the j-box for the whole kitchen. Every knockout used, most with 2 or 3 romex. Inside the box, 3 red wire nuts, each easily attempting to connect 6-10 #12s and #14s. The weird humming was the arcing in the box. The fridge stopped working because the wires eventually caught fire and shorted out. If it hadn't been in a box (like so many of the other joints in the house) then the cellulose insulation would have gone up and so would the house.

So I did the whole house new, safe, and to code, and never had any problems, and the new owners can't go to anywhere in the house and say "look at what the previous idiot did."

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Pympede posted:

I have a switch connected to the outlet my TV plugs into, and I want to disconnect it. i removed the cover and looked at the switch, its a simple decora switch with a red and black going to it. Do I undo these and wirenut them together, or undo them and electrical tape them apart?

Turn off breaker, remove wires from switch, wire nut together, install blank cover. Precisely two wires, right? Assumedly, the white runs on through. Check the outlet; if the top has a black and the bottom a red, then the top is constant hot and the bottom is switched. This is known as "half-switched" and is fairly common for outlets.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Tindjin posted:

I'm getting back into welding and decided to go with a 240v setup instead of a 120v so I have a wider range of useability.

I've got a 240v 50A outlet in my garage but the welder says it will pull 30A at max rating. Is it okay to use this outlet/breaker setup for my welder? I know that if the welder screws up and tries pulling say 40A that the circut is fine but of course not providing the saftey factor of blowing from an over pull. Should I change out the breakers and recepticle to 30A ones just to be safe? Thanks

For reference it looks like this (it's abotu 2.5in across) and the breakers are marked 50A


According to code, if you have a 50A cord and cord cap assembly (plug) and you plug it into that 50A receptacle, you're golden. It may mean upgrading the cord to your welder. Realistically, most people would put a 50A plug on their welder and be just happy to weld away forever, but know that if your welder starts to die, the breaker won't blow until the welder is pulling nearly twice its rated current.

Replacing the breaker and receptacle with a 30A would also be fine.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Dragyn posted:

You know, I can't find this stuff anywhere, and I live 5 minutes from both Home Depot and Lowes.

I've got everything but the direct burial through now. I've got the DB up to the bend in the pipe where I need to get it up from about a 110 degree angle. Terrible design.

ninja edit: It's not done because my hands now hurt too much and my meager 140 pounds can't pull the last turn out.

You made the head too big. Sucks to be you.

You can try to have someone at the other end feed the wire in; you'd be surprised how that little effort on the other end will help you.

That pulling lube would also have helped. They put it in different places, most times it's in an endcap or on some random shelf somewhere. Ask around; the employees may know.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


RedReverend posted:

Have you thought about maybe putting a subpanel on your second floor somewhere? It might save you money, running the #6 up there instead of 4 homeruns. I plan on putting it on a wall in my hallway and hanging a picture over it so nobody has to see it.

I'm not so sure about this. The discount you get on buying a 1000' spool of 12/2 romex probably outweighs the cost of the subpanel and #6.

And don't bother running 14/2 anywhere. Just get the 1000' of 12/2 and use that for everything. You can connect it to 15A breakers if you've got 15A only outlets, then if you (or anyone who ever lives in that house) wants to upgrade to 20A outlets, you're set.

Material isn't the biggest cost in this project: it's time. Spend the few extra bucks and make it overbuilt, since you're saving THOUSANDS of dollars by doing it yourself.

Also, panels must be "readily accessible. Capable of being reached quickly... without requiring those to whom access is requisite to... remove obstacles...." So no pictures over your breaker panel. Also, no panels in bathrooms or over stairs. You have to wonder why there are specific rules not to put a panel in a bathroom, don't you?

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


dyne posted:

So supporting the wire on a 2 story vertical run is not necessary if it's through conduit? Can the conduit just be secured in the attic or basement?

If I use a single 6awg wire from the main panel to the attic, wouldn't that really just be 1 circuit for the entire upstairs (note: I can't use a subpanel in the attic).

Type NM cable (romex) is permitted to be unsupported where the cable is fished between access points through concealed spaces in finished buildings or structures and supporting is impracticable. So, 2 stories vertical is fine. Just remember to support it: within 12" of every box, and every 4.5ft thereafter, using staples, cable ties, straps, hangers, etc.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Slugworth posted:

Upon trying to replace the wall sconce in my bathroom, I found that there wasn't a box in the wall, the old fixture was just screwed into the drywall. With the light I'm replacing it with, this isn't an option. There's a small hole in the drywall to accomodate the bx line, and there are no studs upon which I could mount a box (At least, not while maintaining a center on my mirror).

Does a metal 2 gang old work/rehab box exist? I've seen single gang metal ones, and up to 4 gang plastic ones, but that's it.

Most of the metal cut-in boxes I've dealt with are modular. You can unscrew one side plate on two single-gang boxes and they just stack and screw together to make a double-gang. I think these are called "gangable" boxes. The side plates may have anchor wings or you may be using f-wings.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


EssOEss posted:

How do I open this box? Do I need to take the handle off somehow?

It's an interlock to prevent you from opening the box while energized. You can either figure out how to bypass the interlock (there's usually a small screw somewhere you can unscrew) or you can turn the breaker off, open the box, look inside, close the box, then turn the breaker back on.

Standard warnings apply, with the addition of the new warning about there being enough energy available to set all your clothes on fire instantly should something go wrong, and possibly enough energy available to explode several hundred grams of copper into molten spheres traveling just subsonic right into your face.

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


slap me silly posted:

I've got another question. The existing wire running to my bathroom fan is too short to reach the connection point on the new unit. I bought some more NM and a junction box, but I'm not sure how to set it all up. How am I allowed to install this junction box? There's about 16 inches of blow-in insulation that will cover everything up when I'm done. If I just nail the box to a joist, it'll be buried.

By the way, turns out there is power run to the switch on a wire I didn't know about, so all my previous questions about timers were moot. Woot

Run a new wire. Installing a new, hidden j-box is just asking for someone else to get really pissed off that you cheaped out on 16" of wire.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

babyeatingpsychopath
Oct 28, 2000
Forum Veteran


Desi posted:

My biggest catch here is that I must be able to do it myself because I really don't want to have to pay someone to come set up this system when I am confident I can do it myself. I've found a few systems online that are only sold to and by authorized dealers who must install them. So, basically, what I'm looking for are recommendations as to systems that I should use.

Go to Lowes. Go back to the electrical section. Pick up the "Leviton Home Automation" booklet. Read that. Make sure everything you want to do is in there.

I've used some of their stuff, and it's very simple. They claim that stacking more components on it to make a whole-house automated lighting solution is just as simple as one bank of dimmers with an RF remote.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply