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Seconding a broken or loose neutral at your panel, meterbase, or possibly even a power company connection. Call an electrician, not an amateur repair you got there. And don't run anything electronic, a mssing neutral will cause voltage to go nuts under load and will fry your tv/computer.
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Jun 16, 2013 13:19
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Or at least call the power company and get them to check their connections. We will HAPPILY do that to avoid burning someone's stuff up. Where was the loose neutral you tightened up? If it was just on one individual circuit in your panel box, that doesn't solve why your whole house was having problems as your describe. Is your multimeter a clamp-on?
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Jun 16, 2013 22:39
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Farside posted:
I -suspect- but certainly cannot guarantee, that removing the cloth wire will not solve the earth current, but it should be done in any case because old cloth covered wire is a hazard.
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Jun 17, 2013 23:02
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I said what I did (about maybe not being able to get rid of the earth current) because electricity will take all paths, even unintentional and more resistive ones. Especially if you share a transformer and a water pipe with a neighbor, the current sees this as a parallel path and you may see some current no matter what you do. One thing I forgot about since you have an older house - your ground and neutral are separated after the meterbase right? The neutral bar should be isolated and separate from the ground in all panels after the power company makes their connections in the meterbase. But by all means, make sure that you have a good earth ground and all your neutrals are tight and good. Adding some ground rods per code is a great idea and could very well save your rear end if an overvoltage event (lighting) happens. And removing ungrounded cloth wire is always a good idea, that stuff was pretty crap when new. Oh yeah...if you have an underground electric service...make sure whoever installs the new ground rods gets a locate before proceeding so they don't damage your service wire. As an aside, we have a big problem with electricians installing temp poles in new subdivisions right over existing underground primary (7200/12470v). Had one drive a 5/8 ground rod right through the pipe and primary wire. Good system coordination saved that guy's rear end. Lord knows how many have gone way too close for comfort.
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Jun 19, 2013 00:44
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Farside posted:While I had the branches apart I replaced the old cloth hot and neutral with new hot, neutral and ground. I also tested each branch for continuity and did not find anything anomalous, hot had continuity with hot etc etc. for each of the branches. There was no funky things like neutral having continuity with ground etc I dunno about "chances" but like I said before, the unbalanced current will take all paths, even unintentional ones. The important thing is that your neutral connections are good. If you were able to remove the earth ground, and still run a 120v load off the affected circuit with good voltage, then it is probably just some parallel current you are looking at there. Get rid of that cloth junk, put in some romex with a ground, make good connections, and don't sweat it. Oh yeah and bond your ground at all metal junction boxes. Farside posted:I have 3 wires coming in from the meterbase. 2 hots and a bare wire which is attached to my neutral/ground bars.
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Jun 19, 2013 23:04
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Gold Dust Gasoline posted:So unless I don't understand something here it should be about the same either way right? Which neutral you put on top wont matter?
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Jun 22, 2013 20:50
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ManDingo posted:We had some high winds take down a large tree limb which tore down the power line that feeds the garage from the house. What is the proper way to fix this short of moving it underground. It looks like it was just twisted and tapped before as is evident by the connection that still exists going into the garage. I figure there's some kind of weatherproof junction box that I can get and then just use wire nuts? Also I'll need to anchor the cable somehow as the anchor deal lag screw ripped out of the house. Maybe a larger anchor which has a bigger diameter screw and I can drill out the hole and put the new one in? I had a big reply typed up for you, with some "what i would do" verses "what the NEC says and how inspectors interpret it" but frankly I think that an electrician needs to come look at your building penetrations on both ends, and the service in its entirety to see if any more of that line needs to be upgraded. I see a lot of that sort of thing (that you have torn down) and it is not up to code, and not safe. Per the title of this thread, it's the sort of thing that can burn your house (or garage) down. Some others may have their own opinions on it, and I'm just a lineman, but I think someone with experience should take a look at what you've got there, in person. Because whoever installed that overhead cable completely Mickey Mouse'ed it and I don't trust anything they might have done. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jun 24, 2013 |
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Jun 24, 2013 00:29
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:What do you see that's not good? On the garage side, I see a service clamp, a weatherhead within 24", drip loops, and some nice environmental splices. On the other end, assuming the same type of clamp, add in a weatherhead and some environmental splices or equivalent and call it a day. You're right, we could tell him how to replace what he's got torn down there. It's the potential for the rest of it to be of a similar quality that scares me off from encouraging a homeowner repair. That said, if overhead is the only option here, I would go with a 2-2-2-4 outdoor aluminum quadraplex with the #4 wire being bare ACSR for the ground, attached with wedge grips on either end. If you want to use some other type of rated cable (which may be all you can find locally), then you need to use a messenger wire to hold the tension between the structures. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jun 25, 2013 |
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Jun 25, 2013 00:03
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If I understand what Johnny did there, with the non functional fan auto/on, his solution would not be a very common one because most residential units are not variable speed. Your issue would generally be a problem with the tstat, assuming that the blower comes on fine in normal operation in auto.
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Jul 6, 2013 03:29
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Assuming you have a typical setup, if your blower operates normally in auto, the control circuit is fine. The tstat controls fan operation.
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Jul 6, 2013 20:40
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Edit: I was trying to eliminate confusion but if you want to get into all that then go ahead.
angryrobots fucked around with this message at 12:52 on Jul 7, 2013 |
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Jul 7, 2013 12:38
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:To further complicate things, if your ATS doesn't switch the neutral (most residential don't), then the neutral-ground bond is inside your main panel, only. You're forever and ever completely forbidden from ever allowing your generator to run when there's ever any possibility at all in any possible way of energizing the utility, no matter how remotely. Usually, this means some kind of locking cam inside your ATS that only your utility company is allowed to have keys for. If power drops, it's up to them to unlock your ATS for you to get back on the grid; until then, you're pouring gas in your generator to keep your steaks chilled. Also, the 3-position ATS is considered to be enough to prevent backfeed for the power company I work for. We have no such POCO locking cams here. EDIT: here we go. In this instance, they installed a service disconnect after the meter, and it is now the "main service disconnecting means". This may be code, whether it is or not, it is a great idea to have a disconnect switch outside, just be aware that it is not protected by a breaker and will take a considerable fault to be cleared by the power company! Translation: the door on this switch should be locked. DOUBLEEDIT: Or instead of a disconnect switch, install a panel with a service rated breaker as Grover also said - then everything downstream is protected from fault current. Anyhow, you can see that the neutral-ground bond is now located in the disconnect switch, and the earth ground is terminated there. The ground is unbonded in the ATS and everywhere else. 
angryrobots fucked around with this message at 16:10 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 15:49
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grover posted:My recommendation is to hook up the generator to a 2-pole breaker on the main panel with a sliding sheet-metal interlock to prevent both the generator and main breaker from being simultaneously closed; simple, as effective as an MTS, code-legal, and dirt cheap. Please install a separate transfer switch, for the safety of the workers trying to restore your power.
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Aug 10, 2013 20:01
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I completely get it, but I still can't bring myself to recommend that kind of setup. Your average idiot is way way too willing to play roulette with their own life when their power is out, and much more play with my life. I'd say that 1/10 outdoor panel boxes here are missing their inner cover. Local yokel "electrician" installs a new breaker for a shed or whatever, and the interior cover never gets reinstalled. In this case, the interlock is now gone. The kind of person who will use a suicide plug, isn't going to provide any sort of legal disconnect means at all. The electric code shouldn't be written to appease the lowest common denominator. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Aug 10, 2013 |
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Aug 10, 2013 22:36
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Huh. We just have the minimum seal on meterbases, unless they get caught stealing or the cover is broken. We have a major problem getting homeowners to upgrade their deteriorated panel, or rotten and falling down service pole. Sometimes it comes down to cutting then loose until it's fixed. I've repaired plenty of customer-owned equipment myself, because that's the only way it would ever get done. Also, the inspectors here will approve anything, it seems, and it is next to impossible to implement our own standards. Sometimes it seems like we bow down to our members, at the expense of their safety. Sounds about just as opposite of your experience as possible eh? angryrobots fucked around with this message at 23:55 on Aug 11, 2013 |
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Aug 11, 2013 23:51
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What's you guys opinion on this arc fault stuff that is I guess now a code requirement? It was just coming in when I left commercial work, so I never had any dealings with it.
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Aug 30, 2013 23:44
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So, the idea that you could have an arc big enough to cause a fire, but without the current to trip a standard breaker? I'm guessing you'd generally get this on a device or appliance that isn't metal clad and has no path to ground for the fault?
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Aug 31, 2013 12:39
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:What almost certainly happened is your neutral failed. babyeatingpsychopath posted:There was probably a split bolt and the neutral just corroded through since it's bare aluminum wire that's been underground for thirty years. Ender.uNF posted:So apparently buried lines from 1971 can just up and fail with no obvious cause like tree roots. Ender.uNF posted:I also learned a couple of interesting things: Ender.uNF posted:My meter box has a bypass switch that allows the meter to be removed without cutting power to the home, or to turn the power on/off if the meter is removed. I had no idea this was a thing. Ender.uNF posted:They don't bother burying the lines in conduit of any kind and it was not nearly as deep as I thought. It makes me take the "call before you dig" warnings about 100X as seriously. We put everything AT LEAST 4' deep, except for a special situation. Ender.uNF posted:They don't use any of those fancy disconnects you see in Holmes on Homes when hydro turns off underground power with bus blocks, bolts, and rubber boots; the feeds just come into the box and are bolted together with a pigtail, then the pigtail is bolted to the legs going to each home and shrink wrapped. The main pigtail connection is just covered with a cardboard-looking tube of some kind and shoved in the box, not even shrink wrapped. If water ever flooded the box, it would certainly short out and melt the feed wires, unless the transformer has some magical short-circuit detector.
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Sep 18, 2013 23:06
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Could you post a picture? And yes that cut ground is a hazard, don't touch it.
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Sep 19, 2013 18:14
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Ender.uNF posted:Well I was assuming the conductor was touching dirt (earth) where it started burning up so why wouldn't the transformer just feed power right into the ground? Now that I think about it, would it be the impedance of the dirt being too high to let current flow freely? It has been especially dry (Texas summer). I've seen our primary wire torn down (7200v phase-to-ground), burning on the ground, there not being enough fault current to trigger the recloser or fuse that was supposed to protect it.
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Sep 20, 2013 23:49
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Thaumaturgic posted:The problem is that the adapter cover looks like this: Looks right, as long as you've got another device going on the left side there. Or intend to cover the open spot with a 2 gang cover with a blank side. The other picture you linked is an rs cover (well, that's what I heard them called) and they are for just what you see, completely exposed boxes that aren't in the wall. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 12:29 on Sep 26, 2013 |
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Sep 26, 2013 12:24
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2k just in labor to change out a panel, and nothing else? Dang I need to stop helping people for free.
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Oct 22, 2013 03:46
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Something to keep in mind there, is that almost certainly the neutral load on that receptacle is being carried on the bare ground wire of the 240v line that feeds the stove, unless it has been rewired recently to a 4-wire feed (I think this is code now since most modern appliances have some 120v load, with digital displays and such). Of course, the fact that it was working at one time means you have a connected ground on the stove, which many older homes do not, so that's good. However if the stove feeds from a sub panel, you have potential for a situation where the ground wire could have load and voltage on it, going back to where the neutral and ground are bonded.
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Nov 3, 2013 00:12
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Entangled posted:Funny you mention that - I got called in on one the other day that could be "Don't Burn Your House Down: Proper Torque" I probably get a trouble call from loose panel lugs every time I'm on call duty. If they're lucky, it's a hot leg and one of our standard meter cans (we give them out for members on new construction), and we can fix it for them because we stock parts, if the lug has also gotten hot or corroded. If they're unlucky, it's a neutral with electronics burnt up in the house, or its a combination panel that we have no parts to repair.
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Dec 21, 2013 17:32
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I don't understand why only that receptacle is getting warm, unless there is a tap off of it, feeding another load. Unless the room is wired weirdly, at least a couple of the other receptacles are seeing the same load.
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Dec 23, 2013 01:34
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No, like one or more of the other receptacles should also be getting warm if this issue is because of load, depending on which direction the circuit was run around the room. Anyway, this residential electrical device shouldn't be causing a receptacle in series to get hot like that, just on load. The receptacle is rated for that load, even if the wire was too small.
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Dec 23, 2013 03:34
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grover posted:The two most likely explanations are a poor connection somewhere in that receptacle which is causing resistive heating, or a harmless coincidence based on radiative heating.
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Dec 23, 2013 19:23
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Cat Hatter posted:Do not put a switch on a white wire (unless it's been recoded as hot). You want to cut power to the hot wire, not the neutral. Anyway, as to the box in question, this: Miyamotos RGB NES posted:
....is a bit less than we need to help you. How have you narrowed it down to this box? The only thing you've said in the post, is that there is a breaker that won't turn on, and you have this box which is questionable and has a loose wire. If the floodlights have never worked, how do you know they feed from this box? Just off the cuff, it LOOKS like someone has a 3-way switch on the left, and a single pole switch on the right. Whether either was or is wired up correctly, can't really be determined without knowing where they are going (especially where the switch on the left is going). The very first thing I'd do, is take everything loose (not the bare grounds) and see what is actually hot. If you're not familiar with residential wiring, and 3 way wiring in particular, this may turn into a headache. Haha, e;f; very beaten. Fussing infant, probably took me an hour to reply. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Dec 27, 2013 |
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Dec 27, 2013 00:47
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babyeatingpsychopath posted:My suspicion is this: Left cable: red is one circuit, black is another. Also, he said that one breaker killed whatever power he had in this box, if that is the case then the 2 circuit theory means that other circuit is open somewhere else. Agreeing fully with please please get a real voltmeter. It doesn't need to be a $100 true RMS meter...but a good one will last you forever and depending on what functions you shop for, can come in handy for all sorts of things. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 20:30 on Dec 28, 2013 |
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Dec 28, 2013 04:00
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The wires are taken loose for readings, or still landed on the terminals? I'm hoping that the hot readings on both 5 and 6 are because they are still on the switch, and the switch is 'on'. It would be helpful to test between all the wires (2-3, etc) and let us know if any read hot that way. That will let us see if there is a neutral in that box or only switch legs. There is no other switch in another location that you don't know what it does? Also, your voltage is high. It read steadily like that, wasn't jumping around or anything right?
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Dec 29, 2013 19:25
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Cyril Sneer posted:Hi guys, I have an AC unit that plugs into the outlet shown below, which I'm looking to run through a thermostat-controlled relay.
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Jan 6, 2014 03:27
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Bad Munki posted:Based on his reaction in the fix it fast thread, probably the ranco etc 111000 I recommended over there. It'll handle 120 and 240 just fine, you just have to use a different screw terminal inside (upper block, middle terminal moves to upper block left-most terminal.) I gotcha. I read that post, it looks like the window unit he wants to control may have resistive heat as well (he mentions baseboard heat at first, then says the window unit has three levels of heat and ac). Anyhow, it looks like the controller in question is rated for 16A. If the unit has a heater coil, that is almost certainly not enough current capacity. If this unit is on more than a 15A breaker, that's a pretty serious hazard.
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Jan 6, 2014 06:29
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That's a through-the-wall unit, and it's almost certainly going to need at least a 20A circuit. Find the data plate on the unit, the necessary circuit size will be on there. Not trying to be difficult, a device that pulls say 26A on a relay rated for only 16A is asking for a fire.
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Jan 6, 2014 13:17
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tropical posted:My dad got me a Nest thermostat (2nd gen) for Christmas but my house's thermostat wires (Rh and W) appear to be just barely too heavy gauge to get into the connector holes on the Nest backing plate. I would guess that they're 18 gauge wires but I don't have a wire guide to measure them to know for sure. I'm looking for solutions - can I use wire nuts to attach 20 gauge wires to the ends of the existing wires, or should I run new thermostat wires directly from the furnace? My heating system is hot water baseboard with a furnace/boiler. The furnace is in the basement, pretty much directly below where the thermostat is on the main floor of the house. Any help/suggestions would be appreciated!
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Jan 11, 2014 21:32
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Sure, just don't break the terminal if it's that tight.
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Jan 12, 2014 00:58
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And when that lineman gets injured or worse, you will then have an extremely pissed off line crew hunting for running generators, ready to knock down someone's door. That is also hazardous.
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Jan 26, 2014 04:23
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It depends on the particular setup, but they are required to be prevented from back feeding. We have one account that can sell us energy on our system, they have solar with storage batteries, with a very complicated looking controller that handles the charging and discharging of the battery bank, and all flow of current from the solar array. It automatically disconnects from the line side in the event of an outage. In their case, if they have capacity to handle whatever load the home is pulling, their lights won't even blink. That's the idea, anyway. We have been instructed to pull their meter for a visible opening, if we have to work an outage that involves this account. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Feb 1, 2014 |
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Feb 1, 2014 18:02
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Call your utility and tell them you have half power so they'll check their side, before you spend money on an electrician service call.
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Feb 19, 2014 13:08
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Nobody ever listens to me!
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Feb 20, 2014 04:31
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oldskool posted:I have a 100A breaker in a box mounted outside, between my meter and the interior breaker box. It's rusted pretty badly, the breaker itself is sparking a bit and half my house's power is flickering. What kind of shape is your service pole in, 30 years sounds like about time to change the whole thing out. It's a lot better to change it proactively, than have it fall over rotten on a Saturday morning and be out of power until you can get an electrician on Monday.
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Feb 23, 2014 14:46
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