|
And I though I abused the poo poo out of my boots, drat. Looks like you guys had quite a bit of fun out there. 
|
#
¿
Oct 5, 2009 15:31
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 00:03 |
|
|
Congrats on 4th place! How big was the field? It looks like I'm going to sell my SV and pick up a supermoto...I can't afford to roadrace next year 
|
|
#
¿
Oct 20, 2009 16:38
|
|
|
FuzzyWuzzyBear posted:I've done trackdays in cars before and was wondering how different it is on a bike. I know that you don't have an instructor showing you the line, so are there more doofuses around in the novice class that are just going wherever they want? It's a bit different. You'll still get some sighting laps in the first session in the morning with an instructor playing follow the leader, showing you where to get on and off the track, etc. Most trackday providers don't allow inside passing on motorcycles in the novice group. Some will specify that you can only pass on straights. Either way, you don't really have much to worry about...most people in the novice group is too concerned about being rude/impolite/getting in an accident to do anything stupid. And if you do find someone who's passing like a douche, make a note of their bike and it's colors and their leathers/helmet and tell a control rider. They're there to keep you safe and if you politely point out that someone was passing like a jerk they'll go and talk to him to make sure the track stays safe for everyone. Idiot passing in the C group is really looked down on. Also, there's not really "one good line" on a motorcycle. Depending on your speed, your bike, and your riding style, the ideal line for your bike is going to change. So while an instructor can offer you some pointers, you've got to take matters into your own hands a bit and experiment with it to get on a line that works for you. And then it'll change when you get faster. C group tends to turn into a train of riders who are afraid to pass, so if you get caught up in a group and can't comfortably get around them, pit for 30-45 seconds and find a hole in the groups of riders.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 21, 2009 17:01
|
|
|
T-Square posted:I believe it was about 9 or 10 or something. No where near the grid sizes you get to play with. I was honestly expecting more with it being in Florida. I understand not a lot of people racing in Wisconsin, but I guess it's just the CCS club. The original grid was like 13-14 but one too many people crashed that morning. Honestly, this has been kind of a poo poo year for grid sizes period. The grids shrank from 50+ down to mid 20s by the end of the season as people dropped out as they ran out of money. Hopefully in the next few years things will pick up again. I'm hoping that I can go out and do some supermoto racing, it's a lot cheaper and tracktime is a lot cheaper, so it's not the end of the world
|
|
#
¿
Oct 21, 2009 19:54
|
|
|
NitroSpazzz posted:I'm looking at signing up for the January cornerspin school (http://www.cornerspeed.net/spin.html) and possibly talking my Dad into joining me. Until that time I am just enjoying the twisties in the area and making weekly trips to Deals Gap to work on body position and smooth inputs. Body positioning is something that everyone focuses on but isn't really that important. You'll see a lot more gains from working on proper throttle control, entry speed, and consistency in your braking markers, turn in, and apexes. If you've got your balls of your feet on the pegs and your upper body is on the inside of the motorcycle, you're doing fine and should be focusing instead on lines and throttle application. At the moment, you're all rear end and no shoulders, so if you want to work on hanging off, shift one rear end cheek to the inside and focus instead on moving your upper body off the bike. Your rear end isn't that heavy, your shoulders and head are. You look fine in those pictures, though, besides the silliness of hanging off like crazy when you're just not going that fast. Body positioning is pretty irrelevant unless you're dragging hard parts, so find a position to the inside of the bike where you can comfortable lock your body into the bike, keep your weight off the bars, and be happy with that. Once you start dragging hard parts, then it's time to look at your lines, and once you get your lines up to par and you start dragging hard parts again, it's time to start addressing body positioning. Z3n fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Oct 21, 2009 |
|
#
¿
Oct 21, 2009 22:23
|
|
|
Zool posted:
That's the hope. Maybe I'll even trek all the way to Seattle to race. I went to miller just to ride, after all UltimateCool, try tucking your inside elbow in tighter to your body and more downwards. It'll drop your upper body down more and allow you to rest your outside elbow/arm on the tank for more support.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 22, 2009 01:05
|
|
Maybe we can meet up for a race in Oregon next summer.
|
2ndclasscitizen posted:I had my CBR400 trackbike out for the first time on Wednesday at Oran Park. Once I drained the tank, got some fresh juice into it and gave it a good rev to clear the plugs it ran really well. On the hot track the Diablos stuck like poo poo to a blanket, and it handles really well. drat small though, and I was finding it really hard to shift. It was 35 degrees on the day, I came in after 3 sessions at around 1pm, got out of my leathers and had to sit down because I felt really light headed and thought I was going to pass out. No photogs on the day unfortunately, but a guy in my group had his camera going and was behind me for a little bit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZRmt-i_DL0#t=3m50s I was going quite a bit slower than I thought, but my body positioning looks alright. I'll just chime in here again...you're riding kinda crossed up. When you move into the corners you shift your rear end off the seat but your shoulders don't move at all. As far as hanging off is concerned, your rear end is almost irrelevant, one cheek off the seat or even half a cheek off the seat is all that's needed. What's really important is getting your upper body off to the inside of the bike. You can hang your rear end completely off the seat but all that'll end up doing is forcing your shoulders to the outside of the corner, and it's not moving a significant amount of weight to the inside of the corner. If you instead lock your lower body into the bike as best you can, and then lean your upper body so that your chin is over the inside clipon, you'll really help improve cornering clearance, especially when riding an older bike. This picture of me on the CB200 is an exaggeration of the technique because of how little cornering clearance that bike has, I'm off the bike as absolutely far as I can be. Shoulders off, chin over the inside grip, rear end off as far as it can go.  Here's how the technique translates out on a modern bike...I've got a little more than one rear end cheek off the seat (I've got too much rear end off the seat, honestly) and my chin is essentially right over the inside clipon with my inside elbow tucked in to my chest and pointing straight down, rather than out. My shoulders could use to be off the bike more, with my rear end on the seat more, but it's fairly decent. I know that I'm low on the bike because my outer arm is resting on the tank to help me keep my weight off the bars. Sorry about the watermark, this picture is from about 2 years ago. 
|
|
#
¿
Oct 23, 2009 17:07
|
|
|
lokigoesrawr posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwcPC6AX0tA God that sync'd overlay makes my head hurt sometimes. Lotta  on this one. Comments, with the understanding that I haven't ridden this track before. You rarely apex up against the inside of the track. You're spending most of your time in the no mans land about 5-8 feet away from the inside curbing. Your crash wouldn't have happened if you'd committed more, turned the bike in harder, and actually made it to the inside of the track. If you had actually apexed the corner up against the curbing, then you would have a bunch of buffer room so when you got in hot you wouldn't have run off the track, just used up that buffer zone that you had. In the same vein, you shouldn't be running out to the curbing if you don't absolutely have to. Use as much track as you need to use, but don't use it just because it's there. Having more track means you can carry more speed or have more of a safety buffer. Here's a video showing exactly what I'm talking about. I managed a decent corner at about :26. I'm on the bike directly in front of the camera bike at that point. http://www.vimeo.com/4892630 Tight up against the corner at the apex, and then drifting as wide as I needed to finish the corner, which didn't happen to be out to the curbing. You spend a lot of time holding even on the throttle, just holding speed and RPM. When you're upright, you should always be either pinned or on the brakes. There's no reason to be holding the bike at 8k RPM down a straight. Even if you find yourself overbraking and crawling through a corner, it's ok. You need to get used to being pinned. At every point you're on the throttle, you should be thinking about if you could be pinned. Start with making sure you're pinning it down every straight section. This goes hand in hand with getting pinned more...you need to rev the bike out. You're a gear high through most of the corners, an inline 4 should only drop below 9k if you're in a very slow, first gear corner. You want to wring it's neck. The engine will take it, you need to start getting into the upper rev ranges. At 5:06 a rider comes up the inside of you, and you kind of jerk wide. It's an easy impulse to have, but it's a very bad habit that can get you in trouble if someone's coming around the outside. You want to be predictable. It's something that comes with more time and comfort on the track, but it's worth mentioning. Also, jerking upright like that will throw you off your line and cause you to need more lean angle to stay on line. If you're already committed to a corner and you don't have some space in reserve, then that could cause you to crash or run off. Finally, you should have stood it up once you were going off the track. It's hard to make these decisions on the fly, I've definitely done it before, but going off the track isn't an instant crash. Once you realize there's no saving it, stand it up, use the rear brake, and try and keep it upright. If you go off while leaned over, you will crash. If you go off while upright, you'll be fine. Besides that though, good job for a second trackday! Did some passing, got passed, you did well. Work on your lines and getting pinned (remember, getting out of a corner fast is far more important than getting into them fast), and you'll improve in leaps and bounds
Z3n fucked around with this message at 20:40 on Dec 9, 2009 |
|
#
¿
Dec 9, 2009 20:23
|
|
|
lokigoesrawr posted:Many thanks as always. Pretty much. Twist of the Wrist 2 explains a lot about quick turning and why it's good. But you're also not actually making it to the apex...you should be focusing on turn in and apex and making sure that you're consistent with where you turn in and consistent with making it to the apex. quote:[upright: pinned or on the brakes; revs] The more you pin it, the faster your brain gets used to it  quote:[traffic] Really just a comfort thing. But also something to keep in mind, that you need to mentally start to train yourself out of that habit. quote:I know line and inputs are much more important than body position, but any critiques there? I feel like my head and shoulders are often staying planted. Don't hang more than one rear end cheek off the seat. There's a lot more weight in your upper body, so focus on getting that off to the inside of the bike. Too much hanging off doesn't do any good. You can fine tune your body positioning when you start to run into cornering clearance issues. quote:On chicane-like transitions, should you be moving upper and lower body for each turn? By how much? You should be straight lining fast chicanes, staying upright and pinned. On slower ones, where you could get a knee down on the transitions, you should be transfering your body from side to side as needed. quote:My toes seem to consistently touch before my knees, which have yet to touch down while on the bike You're having difficulty getting your knee down because you are rotating your hips so your knee is going towards the front tire. If you square your hips so that they are perpendicular to the lines of the bikes, when you put your leg out it will go towards the ground, not towards the front tire. You've got the lean angle to get your knee down (especially in pic 2), but you don't have the lower body locked in and perpendicular to the bike. Also, now is a good time to train yourself to hold on with your outside leg. You can't have your inside leg be tense when you hit the ground or it'll bounce off and upset the bike. That'll help you square your hips up too. Any questions/anything unclear?
|
|
#
¿
Dec 10, 2009 04:08
|
|
|
lokigoesrawr posted:Ohhhhhhhhhhh, I don't know why I didn't see that before. That makes a lot of sense. I'll work on squaring up and locking in after focusing on lines/inputs/consistency. Honestly, I'd say you're best off just sort of forgetting about body positioning as much as possible. The only reason I even mention anything about it is because getting a knee down is a useful technique on the track. Once you get comfortable you will start being able to flick the bike to your knee, which is fantastic for your comfort on corner entry. I use it because I like to trailbrake until my knee goes down. It's a lean angle indicator, and that's really, really useful as you start to speed up. Besides that, body position is essentially irrelevant until you start either sliding the bike on corner exit or dragging hard parts midcorner. Even if you're dragging parts, most of the time that's because of poo poo lines and body positioning isn't going to help that. quote:I think I need to remount my techspecs higher. I stuck them on there about in the middle of the tank. I almost feel like my outside leg would slip, but I'm not sure if that's just in my head. You should mount your techspecs so that your knee(s) can lock securely in place under 2 situations: On the brakes and midcorner. Get the bike securely on the stand, hang off as correctly as you can, and see where they should be. quote:Anyway, I've got my list of things to work on at Road Atlanta Fri/Sat/Sun. Might get some rain. I might request more of your seemingly infinite wisdom after the weekend if you're willing. Thanks again! I'd highly recommend checking out Twist of the Wrist 2 by Keith Code (not the first one) if you haven't already. It's available online and usually big bookstores will have a copy. Work on one chapter each day at the track. On rain riding, focus on being as smooth as possible. You'll learn a lot about traction and exactly how important it is to be smooth. That's not to say you shouldn't end up using a lot of gas and brake, just that you should feel it out much more carefully than you would in the dry. Be careful when the rain just starts to fall too, the track is at it's slickest then. And trust me, the knowledge is nowhere near infinite, haha. And it runs out all too often, god knows I've had enough crashes to prove that.  And I'm slow on top of it. But I can tell some pretty convincing lies.  I'll be here if you want more advice, after all, I spend most of my daydreaming about the track anyways. FlyinDoc posted:Still need a bit more work keeping my weight off the inside peg though - I think I tend to carry a bit too much weight on the knee slider (weight the tyres should have instead). I used to do this a lot, but the best thing to do is to tap your knee and lift, tap and lift. The only reason you should ever put weight over your knee is if the front end has started to drift and you're trying to keep the bike upright until it comes back. If you've got weight over it and you smack it into the ground, then you're going to introduce a lot of instability into the chassis and could even end up losing traction if you're close to the limit. Not to mention that if your lines are really good and there's no internal curbing, jamming your knee into the dirt hurts, and you'll never be able to properly tuck up against the curbing if you're not comfortable lifting it as needed. Plus, a lot of people tend to lean the bike till their knee goes down and then stop, limiting their lean angle artificially. Your knee is lean angle indicator one, your toe slider should be the second one, and your peg should be the final one. Knee down with decent body positioning can be done at 30 degrees of lean or less, and you've got up to at least 45 degrees if not more, depending on your tires. Edit: Here's me and one of my friends following each other at Thill. We're going roughly the same speed, he's got his elbow on the ground, and I haven't even gotten a knee down yet.  Click here for the full 1024x683 image. Edit2: Here's another example of body positioning types: Aggressive upper body, evenly matched, and crossed up.  Click here for the full 1024x683 image. At the time I was the fastest in our group of friends. Now my friend with the middling body position is the fastest. So body positioning doesn't have much to do with speed. Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:55 on Dec 10, 2009 |
|
#
¿
Dec 10, 2009 17:46
|
|
|
Zool posted:A couple laps from arenacross practice. http://vimeo.com/8143793 Kickass...how many time did you crash? Looking a lot better than you did before...Hopefully you can show me the ropes on the dirt section when I make it up there.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 13, 2009 02:03
|
|
|
Zool posted:Avon Distanzias. I was wondering about that. You were so close to being able to clear it but you fell just a bit short. Arg, I need to buy a supermoto.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 13, 2009 04:34
|
|
|
What pace are you running? What time in the day was it when you crashed and how were conditions? What pressures were you running?
|
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2009 05:37
|
|
|
FlyinDoc posted:Pace, unsure really. They run trackdays as 4 groups here (4th being most experienced, and largely made up of racers getting additional practice), and I book for the 2nd group, though I tend to be one of the quicker riders in it, and had been planning on moving up in the near future. Lotta coming here. So we can essentially establish that you were running a reasonably quick pace, although not racing fast, that it was a pretty drat hot day, and you're running street tires. That's pretty much a recipe for ending up on your head as you exceed the limits of the tires. It's still your fault because you should have read the tire better, but it's understandable that you ended up crashing as a result of it, as street tires aren't nearly as forgiving about going off as dedicated track/race tires are, and you're pushing your personal limits at the same time. If the general level of the riders out there is around the same out there as it is out here, you are past the limit of running street tires on the track, as someone who's learning and getting faster. You will get people who will say that tire xyz is good for a faster pace than you're running, but that's not taking into account your personal limits as a rider. A high level rider will identify and be able to ride around the weak spots of a particular tire, and because the overall lap time will be slower than their personal limit, will be easily capable of identifying and preventing problems like the tires cooking by choosing which corners they push and which corners they take a little less aggressively. Crashes like yours (I almost had one exactly like what you describe, I just got lucky and didn't end up crashing) are why I try to get people to move up to DOT Race tires as soon as possible. quote:Basically, does someone with more experience have any pointers as to how to avoid a highside if the rear wheel goes? I know the basic theory is "ignore it and stay on the power", but there must be at least a little more to it. Ok, to answer this, there is another part of the technique that people often forget. You should only be adding throttle (past maintenance throttle) when you are also reducing lean angle. This is key. If you are feeding in throttle while still leaned over, you are just eating into your available traction and once you exceed it, any slide is going to be very quick and hard to predict and feel, as you're passing the limit and not giving the tire any chance to regain traction. You can get away with bad technique like this when you're a newer rider and you're nowhere near the limits of traction and your tires. People are especially susceptible to it in high speed corners, as they tend to overbrake and then be way over aggressive with the throttle once they realize how much faster they could be going. As an example: You're using 70% of your available traction in lean angle, and you give it enough throttle to use 25% of the remaining traction. Life is good. You give it a little more throttle, and suddenly the throttle needs 35% of available traction. With the 70% you're using to get through the corner, plus the 35%, you're now at 105% of available traction and the bike is sliding. Because the only way to stop it sliding is to back off the throttle or stand the bike up, and backing off the throttle is probably gonna highside you, and if you're committed to the corner you're not gonna be standing it up... Playing that limit is key to getting off a corner well, and a skill that takes a lifetime to master. If you do it just right, you'll have the bike just on the edge of sliding as you drive and stand it up at the same time. Those big powerslides are impressive but ultimately slower as the tire's spinning rather than driving. Did I explain it coherently? It's been kind of a long weekend. Edit: Also, dirt riding and supermoto is a great way to ingrain the correct responses to a motorcycle starting to slide. There's a reason most of the GP grid does supermoto, flattracking, or some form of dirt riding. Z3n fucked around with this message at 07:33 on Dec 22, 2009 |
|
#
¿
Dec 22, 2009 06:51
|
|
|
FlyinDoc posted:I understand the relationship between throttle and lean angle, but there is another aspect (though of course, I crashed because of too much lean and throttle in combination, no doubt about that): Alright, just wanted to make sure. quote:The corner in question is U-shaped and very heavily cambered towards the exit, allowing you to put down a lot more power on the way out even though your lean angle isn't decreasing that much. In the past I've rolled the power on through there and been WOT by the time I'm roughly 2/3rds around the corner, lap after lap with no problems. Ahh, you know, I thought about addressing camber in my previous post but figured it probably wasn't relevant...that'll teach me to try and keep my walls short. Camber is interesting because people are immediately very comfortable in it, but they also tend to forget that eventually it goes away. People tend to power hard out of on camber corners, thanks to the confidence that you've gotten from the good camber earlier in the corners. The problem with this is that if the camber levels out fast enough, you can be obeying the throttle rules of reducing lean while increasing throttle, but still lose traction as the track effectively increases your lean angle as the camber goes away. Line selection on corner exit of on camber corners is super important for this reason, sometimes a non-traditional line allows you to stand the bike up earlier and drive out harder, even if it doesn't seem to match the ideal line. As always, the indicator for the best line is that it lets you get on the throttle earlier and harder. If you highsided earlier in the corner, before it started to level out, I'd personally lean more towards thinking the tires were a bigger factor, if you highsided late in the corner, more towards the exit as it levels out, camber was probably a big contributing factor. quote:This time, I guess I was going a little bit quicker, putting me both at a greater lean angle and higher into the powerband, the combination of which broke the rear tyre loose. That's the other thing, and why it's so important to train good, smooth habits...when you go faster you rarely feel like you're actually going faster, so having those good habits of being smooth on the throttle can help you recover slides before they become crashes. It's also why it's important to work on good lines early on as well, because they almost never get better the more you push your limits. quote:I completely understand that a powerslide is slower, and don't mean to intentionally repeat it. I was wondering if there's anything else you can do to help recover a rear wheel slide without crashing, apart from staying on the throttle. Standing the bike up a bit maybe? I'd rather take my chances with running wide versus a highside, at least you have a sporting chance of keeping upright if you stand the bike up and go onto the grass. Standing the bike up more is a good option, but...how do you do that without running wide? Pick the bike up more with your body positioning. Pedrosa has the most dramatic change from body positioning midcorner to exit, so he's a good example of it. Here's Pedrosa on entrance. Note his body position, chin over the honda badge on the tank, elbow higher than his knee.  Click here for the full 1024x768 image. Here he is on corner exit, on the gas. Note that he's dropped the inside elbow down to where it's even with his knee, the inside of his helmet is actually past the honda badge on the tank, and his entire body has shifted to the inside and lower.  Click here for the full 1280x853 image. This helps you get on the fat part of the tire earlier in the corner, and combined with weighting the outside peg on corner exit, can help you avoid slides or bring them back in line. Besides that, the other important thing with slides is to be smooth in your application of the throttle, if you feel the bike start to slide, you can then hold the throttle where it is, let the bike get a bit more upright, and it'll come back in line with a minimum of drama. quote:Unfortunately, as a university student the bike is my sole means of transport, so I currently can't work the logistics of using race slicks, stands, and tyre warmers for the track (yes, some would certainly say I shouldn't be doing trackdays). Even ignoring the warmers problem (i.e. number of heat cycles), the bulk of my riding is on the road, so I can't really justify race tyres, even if some are technically road legal. Well, there's another option: Pick up a spare set of rims and toss some DOT Race tires on them. When you want to go to the track, pop the bike up on stands or use a jack to get one wheel off the ground at a time, move your sticky stuff on the bike, and then when you get back, swap back to the street stuff. DOT Race tires don't require tire warmers. In the end it's better all around, because you're not making a compromise on your street tires with your trackdays in mind. I rode the track for a number of years while I was a student, and faced the same problems as you...in the end, I just ended up throwing a lot of money at tires, rather than doing the smart thing and finding a second set of rims. quote:Thanks for the advice Z3n, I'd like to thank you for being a great resource too. No problem lokigoesrawr posted:Finally got around to splicing up some footage from a couple weekends ago at Road Atlanta with NESBA. Temps were freezing or in the low-30s, but tamer in the late afternoon after the tarmac had some time to absorb the sun. Good improvement! Enjoy it, and don't get discouraged when it starts to get harder to drop time...the earlier seconds come much easier than the later ones. quote:Video has footage of my last two laps on Friday (Hero HD dashcam) and my PB 2:03.9 Sunday (Contour720 asscam--sorry about the wind noise). Slapped on timers in Vegas for diagnosis. You're starting to think about your analysis, which is the best thing that you can do. I don't really have too much to say here beyond that, when you're dealing with really, really crappy conditions it's hard to make a good evaluation about where and when you can improve, as all of the assumptions that I can make about available traction and lean angle kinda go out the window. quote:At the end of the asscam lap, I pass a guy on the front straight cruising on a 1000. I should have gone outside, but already made the commitment and got stuck on the inside line. Afraid to cut him off, I hold inside, brake, consider taking T1, panic, drag brakes in and somehow don't go off. Probably could have made the turn easily at that speed, but I guess I was really lacking confidence in the tires or something. The guy that I cut off was very understanding. The CR that looks back congratulates me post-session for "saving it". You could have swung a little bit wider on entrance there without blocking him, but you made it through ok. Good job on not falling victim to panic and recovering it. quote:I tried to work on pinning WOT while straight up, and felt like I did a lot better compared to the previous week at Jennings, but still had a mental block accelerating in 6th on the back straight into the the blind downhill kink. Got a little better on Saturday. Took the advice of a CR to shift your butt over before the kink and deploying the knee sail as you turned in. I'm dripping in adrenaline thinking about it--so much wind resistance. There was a big difference there, really good improvement on being on the throttle. It's always best to make up time while you're upright, it's very low risk. Same why it's best to make up time in fast corners rather than slow ones... pushing 5% faster in a 100mph corner is much lower risk for a lot more reward than a 20% improvement in a 20mph corner. quote:Supported my weight with outside knee on tank instead of the inside peg for the first time. Felt so much more stable and confidence inspiring. Still need to work on not rotating my hips so I can eventually touch a knee. More upper body, too. Days like the one you were riding on are not the days to be worrying about getting a knee down. Good job on focusing on the right things on a day like this...getting good lines, good application of the throttle, improvements in body positioning, and you got a lot of decrease in your times as a result. Well done. Although the street tires were probably more of a help than a hinderance on a day like that, you should get some DOT race tires too. It's always good to have your hardware be a step ahead of you, it'll help compensate when you make stupid mistakes. Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Dec 23, 2009 |
|
#
¿
Dec 23, 2009 19:28
|
|
|
FlyinDoc posted:I hadn't considered the camber to be as much of a contributor as it seems to have been now, because yes, I was virtually all the way around before losing it. To further complicate things you exit that corner up a moderately steep hill, though that should help rear traction I suppose. Do you have any pictures of the area that you crashed? quote:I had been under the impression that even DOT race tyres (I assume that's a term for road legal race tyres like the power one or the pilot race, right?) were only good for a relatively small number of heat cycles, compared to road tyres, before they started to "go off" and lose their stickiness - and that was why warmers were used, so that one trackday was one heat cycle, rather than 6-8 cycles. Yeah, DOT Race tires are basically slicks with sipes cut in them, in most cases. The Dunlop 211GPs, Michelin Power Ones, Pirelli Diablo/Dragon Supercorsa, and there are some other options out there. Some of them (like the Power one) come in both a street and a race version, so make sure you get the race ones. Usually you'll see the DOT Race tires listed under the race listing on a company's website, as they're used in production classes where tires must be road legal. When it comes to street use, I'm running the softest race version on the front of the ZX6R right now and expect at least 3k of good street mileage out of it, probably closer to 6k. I've never really had cross compatible sizes between my race and streetbikes, but I have run DOTs on the street without any issues. Heat cycles are more of a problem with DOT tires, but honestly, at anything below an A group pace, you're not going to have any issues with pushing them hard enough to make them go off before they start to hit the wear bars. They're soft enough that at the low track pressures and on highly abrasive tracks, you'll see the wear bars before you see too many heat cycles. You'll get people swapping them every 3 trackdays, but I ran upwards of 7-10 on some tires at A group pace, without warmers, without any problems. SVs are more gentle on tires than 600s, but you still shouldn't have any problems with getting at least 5 or so trackdays out of a rear and upwards of 10 out of a front, depending on how hard you are on front tires and if your suspension setup is good and you can avoid tearing on the tires. Park the bike with as much sun on the tires as possible and you'll really help reduce the problems of heat cycles and help the tires come up to temp faster. Nature's tire warmer, it gets a lot of laughs until people put their hands on the tires and realize that I'll go out with most of the tire almost as hot as it is off the track. quote:Any comment re: compression damping? I'd always (maybe wrongly) expected it to be the case that the tyres would squirm around a bit when they were pushed, rather than feeling nicely planted and then really letting go quite suddenly. Unfortunately, it's really hard to give suspension advice. I can kind of hazard a guess here and there, but your best bet is to find a local tuner who can help you learn the ropes and sort things out for you. Suspension setup is very subjective and very, very difficult to tune well for a given rider and track. Also, don't be afraid to fiddle with it a little. Take your baseline setup and then adjust things a few clicks in either direction. If you've made it really bad, you'll notice. That sudden break is why I don't like running street tires at track pace...they'll stick but they really have a tendency to break loose suddenly, as that's part of the compromise that comes with making tires last longer. It's also about what tires fit you as a rider, I found that I got the best feedback from dunlops and pirellis, michelins have felt a bit numb to me, so it just may be that you need to switch brands and you'll find the tires that work for you. quote:While I'm here and asking questions, what are your thoughts on switching to a Corsa III or similar when the rear tyre needs replacement (assuming I stick with road tyres for the time being)? I remember you mentioning that you ran a stiffer front tyre and a more pliable rear for a while, and was wondering if the more pliable pirelli might help with developing a sense of feel for what the back end is doing. I did it by necessity, and learned some stuff, although it could have just as easily gone very poorly if I had gotten unlucky. It didn't really develop a feel for traction so much as it developed a feel for what different types of tires would be doing at a given time. It's sort of a difficult distinction to make. I could feel what the stiff front tire was giving in one form of feedback, and what the soft rear tire was giving in another form, they were both telling me what the limit would be in their own way, but it didn't help with me actually finding and exceeding that limit. If you're on the lookout for rims, then I'd just try a new brand of tires on those. The best thing I ever did for confidence on sliding the rear was when I had a torched Pirelli on the rear, and it'd slide a couple inches on the gas after every apex, very controllable, very manageable. Of course, that was after 5 days plus whatever the guy I'd bought the takeoff from had done. Honestly, I've always really liked Pirellis, they seem to just work for me and my riding style. Do you have an aftermarket rear shock on your bike? How involved was the suspension setup that you had done? What were your sag numbers and have you noticed that you're bottoming in either the front or rear? Z3n fucked around with this message at 03:26 on Dec 24, 2009 |
|
#
¿
Dec 24, 2009 03:12
|
|
|
FlyinDoc posted:I can't find any ground level photos (spectating isn't allowed in that area of the track), but I have an aerial one. Entry is on the right, exit on the left. The line drawn on it was a guy on a local forum asking if that proposed line was a good one or not. The second half of that line is fairly accurate, but I start the corner much wider. Hrm, ok. Well, it's always difficult to break down exactly why you crash, but if I've given you some other factors to think about, that's good. If you've got video of the track it may help, but honestly, I think that I've said about as much as I can having never ridden the track and having never seen you ride. In the end, you were the one riding the bike and I'm just watching from the sidelines, so I can suggest things but it's up to you to figure out what's really applicable and what's just mindless blathering. quote:My rear shock is stock unfortunately. The suspension setup was fairly basic, just spent an hour or so setting sags (I don't have the sheet handy right now to check, but I think around 30mm front and 28mm rear?), rebound damping (which apparently isn't quite adequate, but is the highest that the stock shock can be set to without turning it right to the stop), and then the guy had a guess at what my compression damping should be. Just had a check on the bike and the rear compression damping was set 1 turn from softest (with another 1.5 turns to go until hardest). Ok, so if there's not enough rebound damping, then when you get on the gas or as you exit the corner, the bike's not gonna want to transfer weight backwards, because the shock is going to be trying to force itself to extend. This can be exacerbated if there's bumps in the exit of the track, it can compress a little and then extend a lot. I'm 90% sure that he set the compression that soft because you want a compliant but not mushy suspension. People have a tendency to dial in as much "stiff" as they can because they believe that stiff is better, which is not true. You can try dialing in some more to see if things feel better, it's possible that you could have been bottoming the shock through the corner and as you powered out the lack of rebound caused it to effectively try and push the rear tire out from under you. The other thing is that the 2 adjustments can be related, depending on the shock. Sometimes as you get down hard on one adjustment, you'll end up with bleed over into the other adjustment. Either way, that's all fairly moot at the moment, given that you don't have a good set of valving for your setup. I'd recommend trying to find an aftermarket shock, even before you find rims or buy tires or anything like that. It'll really transform the bike and give you a lot of real feedback at the rear tire. More than anything else, being disconnected from what your bike is doing sucks, and while you can ride around lovely suspension, IMO, it's better to have good suspension and lovely everything else, because you can use good suspension to ride intelligently around the other limits of the bike. That's not really true when you can't feel what's going on. Also note that there may be a little work in fine tuning your rear shock till it's just right. You want the front and the rear to be in sync, so if you stand your bike up and push down hard on the seat (helps to have a friend there to make sure you don't drop it), both ends should compress and rebound at roughly the same rate. That way when you hit a bump it's going to effect the bike the same at both ends, leading to that stable feeling that you want in the corners. quote:I know I'm not bottoming out the front, as I spread a fine layer of polish on the fork tubes a few months ago (older GSXR right-side-up forks seem to get little rust spots quite readily), and there is still 20mm or so of unused travel where it hasn't been wiped. I'm not sure about the rear, haven't bottomed it as far as I know. Toss a zip tie on the front and you can measure your travel like that too. Also, do you know where your forks bottom? They could be bottoming internally with only around .8 inches of travel left. I really need to do some video with suspension basics so that I can point out and say "this is what it should look like to start with, fine tune from here". Zool posted:That's not entirely accurate. Just out of curiosity, did you crash right at the start of braking? It's too hard to hear with the wind noise. Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:00 on Dec 24, 2009 |
|
#
¿
Dec 24, 2009 18:58
|
|
|
Zool posted:Yep, I lost it as soon as I got on the brakes. That's the downside to long travel suspension...weight transfer takes longer. Well, actually, the weight transfer's still instant, it just takes longer for it to reflect in traction on the front and rear. Or who knows, it could have just been cold as gently caress. Or some piece of debris on the track... This is why I don't ride when it's below 50 degrees After totally yard saleing the SV at Infineon in the cold, lovely weather, it seems like I can't do anything but go painfully slow when it's cold out. I feel your pain on the random "oh gently caress there it goes!". Man, if someone accidentally scratched the new ducati then I could ride it without having to worry about hurting it.  Edit:  
Z3n fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Dec 24, 2009 |
|
#
¿
Dec 24, 2009 19:19
|
|
|
FlyinDoc posted:Thanks for the input. Guess I'll be watching out for an aftermarket shock then. No problem, good luck finding a cheap one..they're out there but they can be hard to find. I'll keep my eyes open on this side of the world too, if I see anything worth jumping on.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 27, 2009 19:15
|
|
|
FlyinDoc posted:After looking around and considering options, I've found these: Seems like a pretty decent compromise. Not as good as a dedicated aftermarket solution, and a lot of how good it is depends on how good the guy is at setting up the shock. A bit of a risk, without any understanding of how good he is, I'd personally just shell out for a real aftermarket shock that was already set up for my weight, and if I had to revalve/respring it, well, that's just the breaks. It's just really dependent on how good he is. It's probably fine for trackdays, and a vast improvement over the stock stuff, but if you can get a used Ohlins/Penske/whatever for 400$, it's hard to justify buying a rebuilt stock setup. Any decent shop should be able to revalve your front without the need for a special kit for around the same price...you have a fantastic front end in that bike, probably one of the best stock, right side up forks ever made. With the correct setup inside it, it's pretty much golden. I'd revalve and respring the front as needed, and it's 50/50 as to if I'd go for that rear shock or not.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 31, 2009 08:52
|
|
|
What springs are in it currently, and what do you weigh?
|
|
#
¿
Jan 3, 2010 18:47
|
|
|
laymil posted:Currently has stock springs and I'm about 180-190 + gear. You should be fine. You'll probably be on the stiffer side of the settings, but should be ok. The 220s are probably major overkill though. You want 200s, most likely...
|
|
#
¿
Jan 3, 2010 18:53
|
|
|
laymil posted:That was my feeling, but that's what the previous owner had. I'm just wondering if I should: c) and b), then d) Do not do A. They're the wrong spring stiffness for you, and it will make the bike ride super harsh and non-compliant.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 4, 2010 05:42
|
|
|
I wonder if there are any Canadian goons who you could paypal or something and then they'd buy and reship teh shock for you. Or if Elka canada will ship to the US, I'll reship it for you.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 4, 2010 16:06
|
|
|
FlyinDoc posted:That would be awesome. All right, I'll give them a call tomorrow, as I'd imagine they're probably closed. E-mail/PM/IM me (info's in my profile) with your contact info
|
|
#
¿
Jan 5, 2010 01:46
|
|
|
FlyinDoc posted:I have no upgrades on my account, so can't do PMs, and I'm getting an error message saying that an administrator has disabled the email function. Got it. I sent you an e-mail.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 5, 2010 03:40
|
|
|
Tsaven Nava posted:Oh gently caress me, how can I turn that down? Yes, you'd look silly, and you will also probably pass some guys on supersports. Just buy the 2 days for 220$.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 19, 2010 20:08
|
|
|
Tsaven Nava posted:Given I'll be wearing my high-viz Olympia suit, I'll look silly anyway. You think a novice can handle two track days in a row? Don't think I'd be too dead after the first one? Shouldn't be a problem, just remember to pace yourself. If you're making stupid mistakes, if you're losing concentration, if you're feeling tired, TAKE A SESSION OFF. I cannot emphasis enough that just because you have a limited number of sessions, doesn't mean you must ride them all. Stay hydrated, make sure you eat, and don't be afraid to skip a session. It's amazing what that additional hour of break will do for you. Also, if you're tired and want to go out for your last session, you can do so, but don't focus on going fast, just go out and roll around the track. Some of my favorite sessions have been at the end of the day just cruising at 50-70% pace, rolling around the track and enjoying the scenery. I've seen way too many people end a day trying to drop their times another second or 2, and coming back in the crash truck as a result. Take it slow, get up front and listen carefully at the riders meeting, and have a good time. The 2nd day back to back on the track is absolutely amazing. I once had 5 days of back to back tracktime, and it was ungodly how much I improved and how comfortable I was at the end of it.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 19, 2010 20:52
|
|
|
Tsaven Nava posted:Well I've got a cheap-rear end HJC that I could use if I have to. I made the mistake of trying on a $580 Arai Supermotard helmet at the store . . . wants it, wants it SO BIG. http://www.sportbiketracktime.com/policies.html#riderequipment Read that, it'll cover everything. Get everything prepped well in advance, nothing sucks more than checking something only to discover that you need to replace a bolt or there's some problem that you have to address that night. I like to have my trackbike prepped at least a week in advance. I should have everything done and the bike should sit for that week in case I remember something or discover something's gone wrong. Edit: quote:YOU MUST RIDE A MOTORCYCLE APPROPRIATE FOR HIGH PERFORMANCE TRACK RIDING. SEVERELY UNDERPOWERED MOTORCYCLES, OR THOSE NOT SUITED TO HIGH SPEEDS OR LEAN ANGLES WILL NOT BE ALLOWED ON THE TRACK, if you have a question regarding your bike, contact us. Contact them just in case. You should be fine but you never know. Z3n fucked around with this message at 21:21 on Jan 19, 2010 |
|
#
¿
Jan 19, 2010 21:18
|
|
|
lokigoesrawr posted:STT's site (http://www.sportbiketracktime.biz/) is being lovely right now, but you should be able to find bike and gear requirements on their site. Might just be most anything that comes up to the shins. A back protector is definitely a good investment for gear. However, they're not going to protect you from a really bad hit. I like the helimot stuff because it's got both a plastic inner core, covered in impact foam on both sides. Most back protectors only have one or the other. It's a little bulky, like most of his gear, but it's very well fitted, vents excellently, and offers a lot of sizes. Plus you look like a blue turtle 
|
|
#
¿
Jan 19, 2010 21:26
|
|
|
(I've never ridden barber, but I'll give it a shot)lokigoesrawr posted:T1-T2, around 0:12- Probably just a bit of headshake before he rolls off, maybe setting down a wheelie, maybe an awkward transition from gas to brakes. It looks like he trailbrakes pretty deep into the corner. quote:T13-T14-T14a, starting 1:24- It looks like he brakes for 13, sweeps in to the apex, and then stands the bike up, brakes into 14, drifts wide, and then once he's slowed enough, he's at the proper entry speed for 14a, and dips back in for the second apex. Split 13 and 14/14a into 2 corners, 13 is a traditional corner, except that on exit you'll be rolling out, leaned over slightly to the right, while braking for 14a. quote:All this downshifting while leaned over business is slightly unnerving. Also, the 'once the throttle is cracked open, it is rolled on evenly, smoothly, and constantly throughout the remainder of the turn' rule is confusing when you start connecting some of these chicanes. Honestly, you're not going to gain too much from watching videos of fast riders at the track. You're going to be 20-30 seconds off this pace, so if you try and match their lines exactly, you're going to end up turning in way too early and drifting way too wide. I'd instead play videogames that let you have some idea of where the track goes, and spend a few sessions going slow, trying to figure out your reference points for the track. The track looks very different in person than it does on video. There isn't an exception to the keith code throttle rule on this track, you just need to break up the corners a little more.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 25, 2010 18:54
|
|
|
lokigoesrawr posted:Cool, that helps a lot, thanks. Take the pace down about 10-15%, and practice setting your body position securely before you turn in. Once you're locked into place before you give steering input, relax your outside arm and aggressively push the inside bar to get the bike to flip on it's side. From there, you can adjust your turn in point later to compensate for the more aggressive turn in and ramp up the pace, or just up the pace to carry more speed and compensate for the more aggressive turn in.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 25, 2010 19:28
|
|
|
lokigoesrawr posted:So as I understand it, if your tires are warm and you're not on the brakes, it's incredibly unlikely that you can overspend the front traction just from fast steering, right? Short of scraping and over-riding the tires, or falling off the bike or something stupid, that is. It is physically impossible to do unless there is some extenuating circumstance. Something on the track, braking, wheelies, etc. You could theoretically lean it off the edge of the tires, but you'd have to turn it until you were scraping pegs and then keep turning it past that. You should try and work up to the point where you can flick it to your knee...that is, apply a steering input that takes the bike to enough lean angle that you get your knee down. Once you get comfortable with flicking it to your knee, you can start working on flicking it to your toe. With a good line, and good body position plus a fast turn in, and rearsets + flicking it to your toe you can carry absolutely monster corner speed. But that's the sort of control that takes a lot of track time to achieve. Z3n fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Feb 25, 2010 |
|
#
¿
Feb 25, 2010 20:07
|
|
|
Not me. Need to get this endurance race at miller out of the way before I can consider a trackday too seriously, plus I don't have a bike that's track worthy at the moment. Unless I want to take dimple butt out and add some scrapes to the saddlebags.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 25, 2010 23:54
|
|
|
T-Square posted:Yeah, probably, but I've gotten multiple comments from control riders in track days that my body position is great, and it works fine for me so it's just another thing to work on. I've only been racing for 2 years, this year will be my 3rd season  This guy seemed to do alright riding crossed up. BP's more a theorycraft for most, if you're not dragging hard parts, your BP's not gonna do much for you. quote:Yes sir. They work out great for me, I've never had a problem with them this past season. Although I've heard from one other guy that he didn't like them because he felt that they lost front end grip without warning, but I've never had that problem. The P1s never quite worked right for me, could never get the feedback I was looking for with them. Thanks for sharing the pics, I'd love to race Daytona one day.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 3, 2010 19:55
|
|
|
T-Square posted:It's right up there at top for me. I know I personally give NASCAR a ton of poo poo for it, but there really is nothing like haulin' rear end around those bankings. Yeah, the most banking I've ever been on is streets of willow, which is a comparatively tame 20 degrees. Nothing like a shitload of positive camber to help you out 
|
|
#
¿
Mar 3, 2010 22:19
|
|
|
lokigoesrawr posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMseWXoFVOo Hard to see but you look ok. quote:Oh and crashed last session Saturday on the outing lap. Just passed a guy after T4, braked, completely off the brakes, leaned in lazily T5 skeptical of entry speed, front tucks out at max lean a half-second after cracking open the gas. Completely my fault not respecting cold tires. Spent all of Sunday trying to work back to Saturday's pace. I knew why it happened and why I shouldn't be afraid of it happening again, but jesus christ it fucks with your head so much. The problem with turning in lazily is that it means you'll need to carry more lean angle to make the corner...doubly tough when you're on cold tires. Either way, just in case you don't already know this: The best way to heat up tires is a lot of throttle and brake. My first 2 laps of the day, and my first lap of every session following, I'm doing my best to imitate a squid: Crawl through the corners, hard on the gas, hard on the brakes, crawl through the next corner. quote:Question: I'll still lock my inside leg to the tank, even with my rear end shifted off the seat so I'm prepped for turn in. Also, you're downshifting really late in your braking zone, get your shifting done as early in the braking zone as possible. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vO5z_aWdhEY#t=0m13s Watch lorenzo. You can see him snap his rear end off the seat to the side, right as he pops up and begins to brake. You can't brake properly when you're trying to move around on the bike, you need to be locked in place and secure on the bike. The same is true of turn in, it's difficult to impossible to get consistent on turn in when you're also scooting your rear end around on the seat. It may not seem that important now, but it's key to build up a good base of techniques so that when you start going faster you've got both good habits and the consistency and precision that's needed to go fast. The problem with waiting to set your body position after braking is you'll be coasting while you wait for yourself to get into position. After braking but before turn in is really the worst place to be. Plus, it's going to make it impossible to trail brake, which is a very useful technique. Z3n fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Mar 8, 2010 |
|
#
¿
Mar 8, 2010 18:03
|
|
|
Zool posted:150s on a 3.5in rim are not going to handle right. The tire will be pinched in, reducing the size of the contact patch when leaned over. And you don't have enough power to take advantage of the larger contact patch (while upright) anyway. I wouldn't go over 140. Just echoing this...the general idea should be a 130 on a 3.5in rim, 150 on a 4.25in, 160 on a 4.5in, and 180+ on 5in or wider. It's not the absolute end of the world, I've seen and ridden on tires that are pinched beyond belief, but it's going to cause you to flatspot faster and will reduce contact patch at lean. However, tires vary in width, even within the confines of the 1x0 system...sometimes you'll have a narrow 150 that'll fit just fine on a 3.5 inch rim, it just depends. Look at the tire maker's recommended rim size, and you should be able to figure out if it'll be alright or not from there.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 9, 2010 04:20
|
|
|
AncientTV posted:Piggy-backing on Resource's post, is there an expectation as far as rider experience is concerned when you show up for a track school? I don't plan on attending one for another year or so due to finances, but even then, I wouldn't want to get eaten alive by all others in attendance. I've seen all ranges of skill at the track, from guys who on their first time out could do pretty decent on a race grid to guys who literally went from MSF to the track. However: it's going to vary between trackday providers as to what they expect from you...look at their site or contact them. Some trackday providers around here are known for being fast, some are known for being more beginner friendly. It varies by organization. Same with gear requirements. A good trackday provider will provide a safe environment for any and all riders out there...in this case, the guy who had never ridden before, a ~300 pound black man on a ninja 250, was flanked by 2 instructors who kept him off the "racing line" in the C group.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 24, 2010 16:23
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ Apr 29, 2024 00:03 |
|
|
Gnaghi posted:So I guess riding to the track on your bike is a bad idea, even if it's close huh? I don't think buying a bike trailer and tow hitch for a beater while soon-to-be unemployed is the best idea. I've done it before. It's not the best idea simply because you're gonna be tired and beat to hell after a trackday, and most people want to go fast/push their limits on a track day, which comes with an increased risk of crashing. Plus there's the small chance that you could crash due to someone else's mistake, be it oil on the track, or (god forbid) a collision of some sort. What happens when your ride home is trashed? But yeah, it's doable. Just not recommended. I was pretty tired when I rode back from streets of willow to santa cruz, and I went WAY too fast on the way home, my brain was wired for track speed so I was doing 120 and not even thinking about it.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 24, 2010 17:33
|
|