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Rixatrix posted:You don't need to take brakes with Cohen very often, do you? Something I constantly run into with my dogs is that they absolutely need their breaks every 5-10 clicks or so. Otherwise they'll just stop offering behaviour and/or wander off. This makes shaping slower. The same thing applies with finished behaviours, except they get fed up more easily with repetition. And it's not because my rewards aren't reinforcing enough, because that's also something I need to balance: kibble doesn't work and the really good stuff will frustrate them, because oh god give it to me NOW!! I'd really really want to get that bc/belgian just to see how different training would be with a more biddable breed. a life less posted:B, v - Selective disobedience a life less, I have to say, I disagree with you on this point. Although obviously the ultimate goal of any training is going to be solid obedience no matter if a reward is involved or not, but this is VERY different with different breeds of dogs. This is why we all say you can't use one blanket technique with every breed. If that were the case, it wouldn't matter what dog people got when they haven't had experience or are used to one type of dog (say, a sporting dog over a spitz). I don't mean any offense or anything, but you've only had experience working with a breed that is one of the highest on the charts for biddablility. Your dog has it ingrained in her DNA that she wants nothing more in life than to work, go over multiple repetitions, and please, please, please her owner. Spitz dogs, like Rho, literally do not give one poo poo what you want when they decide there's something else they'd rather have. This is going to sound harsher than I mean it, I'm sure, but this is why you need to be firm with these breeds as opposed to being all positive all the time. It's not that you want to use harsh corrections or anything, because obviously that'll be counter productive since the dog'll just say, "gently caress you, you're boring, I'm outta here," but (as PFox mentioned in the Primitive Breeds thread) your dog has to know your serious, like the tone you'd take with a disobedient 4 year old. You need to strike a balance between reward and correction, because reward on its own won't do, these dogs get bored and sick of you. Rixatrix posted:Editing to add a question: yesterday at our Schutzhund obedience class (or "class", it's more a bunch of people training together) Rho couldn't focus at all, because he was to busy reinforcing himself for being a hormone-induced little monster by sniffing the ground with abandon. The same happens any time we are somewhere other dogs have been recently. I'm trying to premack the sniffing (which seems to work, hooray!), but I also need a way to tell Rho that self-reinforcing with sniffing isn't acceptable. How do I do this? What is a dog-friendly way of stopping him once he tries to sniff without approval? There's nothing I can offer him that's more rewarding for him at the moment. I'm really not into leash pops or the like and I know he thinks wearing a Gentle Leader is +P of the worst kind. Honestly, you may not like this advice, but you need to be able to keep him from sniffing around. You want to come up with a command for it (we use "Leave it, Lets Go" and "Walk Nice" depending on if he's falling back or pulling forward) and you might want to start working on it when you have the ability to walk around freely, so your class might not be the best time (although you'll want an area like that with lots of other dogs and good smells). We naturally developed ours out on walks. If Buddy started sniffing something too much and veering off, I'd give him the command and give a tug on his leash to bring him back in. If he left what he was sniffing, all is good and we'd be on our merry way. If he kept it up, though, I'd put him into a heel and hold his collar. This made the walk VERY boring, because he wouldn't get to sniff ANYTHING then. After he was walking nice for a little bit, then, I'd give him a release command and let him continue on ahead. His freedom is his reward in this case. I've also taught him "Out of the Grass" using this technique, for areas where the grass may be full of nasty stuff or it's people's lawns I don't want him peeing on. It would obviously be best if you could figure out a good smelly treat that he loved, because ideally you'd be able to not only give him freedom for being good, you could give him treats to help him keep his focus on you. If you do find something he's motivated for, you could work on a "Watch Me" command to get him to immediately focus on you, too, but you may already do that, sniffing can sometimes just bee too interesting.  Also, before your class, see if you can give him some "free" time ahead of time to run around the field a bit and get a good sniff of the area where you're working. See if you can get his sniffing out of his system, because if the smells aren't new, he's more likely to focus on you when you're training. 
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Nov 12, 2010 13:32
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Do you find Kaidan "acts up" more with larger groups? Because I know Buddy tries to get away with more with more people around, and it's up to THEM as much as me to keep him in check. He knows WE don't let him beg or jump up, but OTHER people might let him.  It's possible that Kaidan is doing the same thing, and maybe you could try having your guests actually the commands for Kaidan to knock it off so he knows they're not push overs that will let him get away with it. v v
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Apr 27, 2011 00:26
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a life less posted:First, you guys need to see a professional. Clearly this has elevated beyond your ability to manage her. Might be good to look in to trainers/training clubs that usually work with GSDs. Even though she's (probably) mostly Malinios, their training methods/understanding are still the same. It's like how finding a trainer used to huskies can help with a malamute, or a trainer used to border collies can help with an aussie. GSD clubs are all over the place, too, so that might help you find a support group. Look for places that teach obedience & tracking, & even better if they actually do Schutzhund. It's not that you want to participate in the sport, but rather that the people that are invested in working dogs as opposed to just showing them are going to know how to teach you to manage a dog with more drive like that. Like a life less said, it's about breaking her focus and having her realize it's more rewarding to listen to you than it is to go off the deep end. Don't give up on her! I know it's super frustrating, but everyone hits setbacks in training, and you're definitely allowed to freak out a bit, but once you get back in to things, you can get back on track.
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May 21, 2011 12:27
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The BLT posted:I have a pretty important question about what I may be able to do to train my dog to not want to kill any cat she sees. rivals posted:I know WolfensteinBag has had a lot of success managing Buddy's prey drive but I'm not sure what methods she used so hopefully she'll chime in. Oh, sorry, didn't see any of this! I hardly check this thread. Anyway, yeah, we've got our husky, Buddy, used to living with a cat, and she's nervous as hell, so we're seeing that as a major victory (since she'll dart at the drop of a hat). It took us years of training before we got her, though, so you have to keep in mind that you have to do a lot of groundwork before you can even start approaching training with a cat in the house, where your dog will actually be in close proximity. Like a life less said, it's a good idea to work with a one-on-one trainer with the issue because if you don't have experience with this sort of thing before hand, and you don't have a really solid understanding of your dog's body language and what sort of training he responds well to, you have a really huge potential for something absolutely horrible to happen. All I can really tell you is how I went about Buddy's training to give you an idea of the process. Keep in mind, though, this worked for US because of Buddy's specific motivations and reactions. It's quite possible that something different would work better for your dog, and even possible that this method wouldn't even give you any results. It's just what worked for US. The whole process really started with going on our walks. Walks are a HUGE motivator for Buddy, so often times I'll use the actual walking around & sniffing stuff as his reward for being good. In general, if Buddy did something inappropriate on his walk, he would get a command for whatever problem it was at the time, and I'd shorten his leash so he'd have no choice but to (boringly) walk beside me until he behaved himself (i.e. removing the self-reward from whatever behavior he was doing). Using this method, Buddy knows "Walk Nice", "Out of the Grass", and most importantly, "No Chasing". Buddy love, love, loves wildlife, especially squirrels & bunnies. When we first got him, he'd dart the second he saw them, which is super dangerous, even though he's on a leash. So to work on it, we used the method I just stated. Obviously to start, he would ALWAYS spot the animal before me. So when he'd dart, I'd pull him back saying, "No Chasing," and make him walk beside me. If I saw his gaze was still on the animal, we would stop completely, and he'd have to stay put until his focus was on me instead. Whenever he got to the point where he quit his focus and calmed down, he got praised like crazy, and was allowed slack again, and we'd resume our walk. After a while of this, it became clear that Buddy understood the command, whether or not he decided to listen. This brought us in to phase two, easing him in to following the command every time, and knowing his reward for doing so. Now, it was to the point where I'd have a second to see his gaze shoot over to the animal before he'd dart, so I could give him his "No Chasing" command before he had a chance to do anything about it. Most of the time, he would look at me, I'd praise the living daylights out of him for being so good, and we'd continue on our way. If he kept focusing, then he had to walk beside me. If (on the odd occasion) he STILL wouldn't let up, then we'd revert back to stopping the walk entirely. Eventually, it was really obvious that Buddy knew the command, and really listened like 95% of the time (I'm still amazed how good he can be walking past animals that are pretty drat close, now.  ) He can even be just hanging out in our yard, not on a leash, and if I see him focusing on the squirrels in the trees and I want him to come in, he'll break his attention for me. He also has learned that he can look at things all he wants (he's earned that privilege) so long as he doesn't actually chase anything.I should mention, we had Buddy 3 years before getting our cat, and we worked on this command the entire time. This is the sort of foundation we had when we got our kitty, Kaipo. I knew Buddy would respond well to my voice and we also had a system set up in the house where Kaipo had a safe area that Buddy wasn't allowed to go, and more importantly, a cat tree where it was impossible for Buddy to reach her, should he decide to throw all his training out the window. So, we eventually got Kaipo. She's small, looks like a little wild animal with her long hair and coloring, and is really skittish. All the things Buddy just LOVES to chase. However, Buddy had his "No Chasing" command, and we were able to do a very slow introduction between them where we tested Buddy's training in a way that was safe for Kaipo.When we first got her, Kaipo was living exclusively in "her" room, with the door shut at all times. We (the humans) would go in every so often to socialize with her, but she was not allowed out, and Buddy most definitely was not allowed in. We let them alone for probably at least a week like this before going any further, so they could get used to the fact that they're in the same house. When we finally decided to move forward, we put Kaipo in her carrier, and let them see eachother that way. Poor Kaipo was a nervous wreck, but Buddy did very well listening to "Leave it" when we asked, and was nice and calm. We needed to give Kaipo more time, but we knew Buddy was going to do well since he had such a good start before she came to the house. When we eventually started leaving her door open, we were super diligent about keeping track of where both animals were at all times. Of course, Buddy wanted to be all in her face and greet her, and when she'd dart away, naturally his chasing instinct would kick in. This is the sort of thing we wanted to avoid from the start, so I would run interference, and use body blocking to make sure Buddy stayed focused on me, not the cat, when I would tell him "Leave it, No Chasing". It didn't take very long of this before Buddy figured out that she wasn't some wild animal, and now he treats her more like another dog than a prey animal. He still likes to give her poo poo by chasing her away from his favorite spots, or by cornering her where he knows she'll have to run past him to get away (so he can bark in her face ) but you can tell by his mannerisms that he's doing so in a goading, playful manner, not in a way where he wants to chase her down and actually grab her. He'll bark at her as she runs past, but he NEVER follows by chasing. (BTW, if I ever see Buddy cornering Kaipo like that, usually trapping her in the kitchen, I'll tell him to "Leave it" and call him in to the living room, and he cuts it out, giving her time to get away. I'm not mean, I don't let him torture her.  They're also still separated any time we're not around.)If the cat you're going to be living with really does know how to stand her ground, it'll make life a LOT easier when teaching your dog proper behavior, and you do have a lot of room for success. Dogs definitely can learn that other animals in the house are something different than the ones outside. You'll see this a lot with sighthounds, like retired racing greyhounds that live fine with cats in the house, but will still chase anything that moves outdoors. The important thing is, though, to really know your dog, know if your dog knows what you're expecting of him, and to not push through training faster than your dog's going to allow. Again, you're probably best off getting one-on-one help from a trainer, since you're going to be jumping right in to the shared living space without being able to do a lot of groundwork before hand. You also want to make sure to take precautions, like have been mentioned, by keeping the two animals separated at all times when not directly supervised, using a basket muzzle during training, and leashing your dog around the cat, so you have control if your dog decides to dart. It's definitely a dangerous situation that you want full control over during the entire process, and it's something that can (and probably will) take a long, long time to work on, but it IS possible. If your girlfriend is worth it (as it sounds like she is) then these are just the hoops you're going to have to go through in order to live together. Edit: Ummm, holy crap, I didn't realize I was going to write so much.  Here, accept this video of Buddy & Kaipo meeting as a reward for all that text:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdUmOd0KFeI
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Jun 5, 2011 18:21
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Fraction posted:Maybe luring against a wall? Rixatrix posted:Another thing that might work is luring with the dog's back against a corner. I was going to suggest this, but if you're feeling like working on more than just sit, or giving a good base to work off of, the clicker would be the best route, I think, for the future. If she's having that hard of a time with the lure just for a sit, sounds like shaping would be the way to go. Also, hi everyone, I'm going to attempt to work my way back and finally read this drat thread! :iamafag: Edit: Found this on the previous page and wanted to weigh in: cheese eats mouse posted:Eh dogs can be moody shits. :p First off, I'd stick with the "easier" way you had the crate, is it just the tray out? Or did you do something else to make him more receptive to it? Either way, start where he's most comfortable so he's less anxious about the training. Once he's REALLY good about going on it that way, then slowly ease it more into his less comfortable zones. Secondly, how exactly are you working on training? If you're tossing treats on to the pan, that's a good start. After he gets the idea that treats appear there, you might want to start shaping the behavior of him choosing on his own to investigate the crate pan. That way you're not just pushing him farther than he feels comfortable because he really wants that treat. After all, you want his crate to be a safe, comfy place for him. By shaping the behavior, you're allowing him to decide his level of security, and also showing him it's even LESS scary because TREATS! If you're working on actually giving a command to have him lay on the bed, you might want to take a step back and work on shaping. Telling him to lay on the tray is just as much "forcing" him in to it as tossing the treats might be. I'd wait until he's really eagerly going over to the pan for treats over and over to start giving commands to lay down. The key is to make sure he's EXCITED about the crate and training around it, if he seems hesitant/scared, then it's time to move a step back. Obviously, this all takes a decent amount of time. You're not going to have him exuberant over his crate in one day. But the more you work on it like this, the better off he'll be for it in the long run.
WolfensteinBag fucked around with this message at 14:30 on Jul 5, 2013 |
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Jul 5, 2013 13:56
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Zedlic posted:I've read the OP a few times and looked into a bunch of resources but I'm still a bit stumped with my newly adopted dog. I hope this isn't some obvious thing I've overlooked. You might need to take baby steps when it comes to training outside. Obviously, you still need to go on walks and all that, but take some skills that your dog is REALLY great at in the house, like "Sit" maybe, and transition to working on obedience outside on a leash. I'm guessing the leash itself is exciting enough, so you can start by just clipping the leash on, and still working in the house, so she doesn't immediately go into excited "OMG WALK!" mode when she sees it. Once she's rock solid doing obedience in the house with the leash on, then start going outside in a quiet area like a backyard, with as few distractions as possible. Give her a chance to potty first so THAT isn't distracting her, and start working on the simple stuff. It's all baby steps. Every time she starts getting really rock solid working with one set of distractions, move it up slightly to the next thing. This is obviously something that's going to take time. Also, Fraction posted:Some dogs are also more interested in the outside world as a reward than food or toys. If she's more into sniffing or approaching things, you could restrict her access to them until she gives you a behaviour you want (eg cue sit, give her no leash slack to move or sniff, and wait her the hell out, approach a thing when she finally does sit). This! Even with lots of distraction training, for some dogs the walk itself is a much greater motivator than anything else you could offer. My husky is INSANE for treats, but get him on a walk, and that is ALL he cares about. He's a husky, after all, he's bred to have a one track mind for pulling forward at a good pace down a path. I wouldn't necessarily start off using it for a "Sit", though. I'd start off smaller, with just waiting for slack on the leash, or looking back at you before heading forward again. This helps break the dog out of that "WALK WALK WALK WALK FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD FORWARD" sort of mindset and gets her looking to you for instruction. It's almost in the same line as teaching a "Watch" or "Look" command to a dog you want to learn how to focus. If you can snap her out of that zone, she'll be more receptive to listening and training.
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Jul 16, 2013 11:58
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Sounds like you're just really proud of your clients and their dogs. In a field where a lot of people are just looking for a quick fix, it's really gratifying to find people who "get it" and really, truly want to learn. Like ALL said, I'd really push further classes and sports/activities on those people, I'm sure they'd really enjoy it.
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Jul 17, 2013 12:01
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