Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

So basically: We're gonna have some serious meetings about this...

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 23:13

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 01:16

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

XCPuff posted:

Wonder how many more will be dead by the time Clinton travels to Geneva on Monday. Glad to see we're really on the ball with all of this.

Bureaucracy is a bitch, and so are birthing pains. Revolution has never been easy.

# ¿ Feb 23, 2011 23:21

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Well, the financial crisis in the states (and most of the developed world) didn't just effect us. This is what Reagan should have meant by 'trickle down' economics. Our planet is so interconnected that what effects the top is compounded at the bottom.
Food prices was a large cause of these protests. If corn prices go up 50% in the states, we hardly feel it in our TV dinners. But when you buy sacks of corn for the week, that hits you incredibly hard.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 02:45

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Apology posted:

Oil

His defense is basically; "Lol what is everyone worried about! Reserves will keep our precious gas prices down!"

Right?

That seems wrong in the sustainability department. How much oil reserve supply does the US have? How about the large countries in the world?

If America is the only country with remaining available oil supplies, that wont save us. We depend on the world as much as they depend on us.

e:

GnatKingCoal posted:

Gadaffi's daughter is Breckin Meyer?

Click here for the full 673x600 image.

Sivias fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Feb 24, 2011

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 03:19

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Well, technically they have a lot of money. It's just very well distributed... to the rich guys.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 04:15

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Steve Yun posted:

Charles Bronson? I was going to cast Benicio Del Toro

What a complete opposite role from 'Che'. He'd have to have some serious range as an actor to pull off Gadaffi.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 18:53

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Al-Saqr posted:

Here's another Political drawing I just thought of now:

Although I appreciate your effort, and I rather enjoy your art style, I fear the impact of your images lack something. The greatest of revolutionary imagery stems from visceral understanding. Look at things like the Nazi helm shadow man poster: "He's watching you."
Very memorable and instantly recognizable in it's meaning. Elements of the iconic Nazi style helm. Dark shadows, conflicting colors, and stylized eyes.

Your image lacks that instant recognition that really hits home.

I hope my criticism is seen as constructive and not insulting.

Good work, though!

e; Perhaps something showing Gadaffi trying to hang the Libyan people, but with the other side of the noose tied to his own neck as well? Crying tears of crude.

Sivias fucked around with this message at 20:28 on Feb 24, 2011

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 20:18

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

'Cause while the sinners sin, the children play
- Tea for the Tillerman, Cat Stevens.

Yusuf Islam is the biggest hippie, but I do enjoy his classics

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 20:52

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Patter Song posted:

"If you carry a leaking bag of water, your back will get wet?"

What the hell sort of proverb is that?

Clearly he's talking about Mexicans. Think about it: Drug war, youth, wetbacks. The Mexicans are supplying the Libyan youth with their freedom drugs!

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 21:07

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Is it likely that oil prices will go back down? I don't think people are fully appreciating the impact of these revolts.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 21:17

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

So oil prices dropped at a rumor of Gaddafi's death. What will happen if those rumors are false? Will they shoot up just as quickly? Exponentially? If the Libyan revolution is successful and the riots spread, will the oil continue to rise?

Again, I don't think people are giving the full appreciation of what is happening over there.

Ignoring the real impact of events in order to keep prices at a stable level is just as damaging as jumping to conclusions.

Sivias fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Feb 24, 2011

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 22:08

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

It's generally decided that unrest in Saudi is unrealistic. Then again, no one thought Libya would see this type of revolution.

Bahrain/Iran is the next nations of concern with these revolutions as they are the next largest segments of stability in a very precarious region.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 22:12

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Iran has no direct impact in the price of Oil no, but indirectly, it has a huge impact.

If Iran's government falls, Syria and the west bank can very easily become a very chaotic environment. The West bank just yesterday saw a rocket fired into Israel and retaliating bombing soon after. Saudi Arabia has grave concerns that if Bahrain falls, it will fall into the hands of Iranian political control. (Or at least the sectarian upheaval is of great concern).

Instability causes fear. Fear is directly connected to the price of oil. We see it all the time. A cricket hiccups on an oil rig and everyone pays 4 cents more at the pump.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 22:21

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Poke posted:

Last week a gallon of regular unleaded was $2.99 at the Shell gas station in front of my house. Now it's $3.30. What the gently caress? Is Libyan oil that important to the rest of the world?

That's EXACTLY my point! It's not! It's very easily to refine, but only makes up 2% of the worlds oil supply. 2% and we saw a what, 10% rise in fuel prices? And the oil supply didn't even stop. The fields aren't burning. The rigs haven't shut down. The infrastructure is still intact.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 22:45

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Isn't that basically Enron type accounting? Cashing out on the values of future production?

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 22:56

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Fluffy Bunnies posted:

Unrealistic or not, if the Saudis rise, that's pretty much the entire mid-east toppling point, isn't it?

More or less. The world as we know it will change.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 23:04

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

It's interesting how we feel when we see things like that. I like to think it's because it's how we too would feel if we were living in those oppressive conditions for that long.

That isn't fake pride paid for by government goons. That is true hope for the future.

Welcome to freedom, Libya.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2011 23:33

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

I really hope the events happening in Tripoli today and tonight are being documented. When this is all over, I think we're going to be sickened by the small amount of video that was taken of the entire event.
It's crazy to think about all the things we are seeing (which isn't much), compared to all the stuff that is actually happening.
So much death and pain.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 18:18

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

smn posted:

Gaddafi High-ball? More in line stylistically with Molotovs, and he sounds like he's had a few too many of those.

You also have to squeeze a pill of ecstasy into the tennis ball, for good measure.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 18:35

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Tripoli Elbow

Double-Fault gently caress

Match-Point money maker

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 18:50

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Jesus, I didn't recognize it at first. You bastard. May the force not be with you. :argh:

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 19:18

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Dumping more weapons into the hands of the people is such a bad idea.
Not even talking about the fighting between protesters/army/mercenaries. Once Gaddafi has fallen, the dispute between the control of the nation comes next, and when the population is flooded with weapons, disputes can easily lead to more fighting.

Why sit down and discuss why I'm right and you're wrong when I can just shoot you?

e: This leads me to another question. Can we elude that the increased in violence in Libya, relative to the uprising of other nations, be directly correlated to the lower level of education?

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 19:42

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Samurai Sanders posted:

Maybe I don't understand mercenaries very well, but why would they take a side that will almost certainly result in getting slaughtered indiscriminately by an angry mob? What money is worth that?

Human nature is a fickle business. You gotta really understand that instincts can be far more powerful than reason. It's normally what separates us from the other animals on our planet.
Unfortunately, that use of reason is often forgone for the benefit of personal immediate gain.
For most of our civilization, the value of individual human life is worth very little. And if these mercs can make some quick money and get out, they will.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 19:49

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Samurai Sanders posted:

Huh, if that's the case than I was thinking too highly of mercenaries. I figured they were people who knew how to choose their jobs better.

Oh god, no. The lower your moral and ethical standards are, the better mercenary you'll be - more or less.

Serpus, His name has been spelled and pronounced differently for the last 42 years since he's been in power (and probably longer). Not just goons being illiterate.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 20:16

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Breaking News on AJE. Jay Carney, White House's Press secretary and leader of his high school debate and chess teams. (Seriously, he looks like he's about 17)

Talking about sanctions and stuff, I guess?

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 20:39

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Young Freud posted:

Why are they even bothering with sanctions? Qaddafi will like not survive the weekend, let alone the week or so that it'll take to get the sanctions implemented.

Not much else they can do. And as the leading world power, the US has a lot of responsibility to respond to poo poo like this. And it's a burden we don't bare well.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 20:55

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Apology posted:

Have sanctions ever worked anywhere at any time? All sanctions will accomplish is making the little people suffer more. I suppose that at least it gives the semblance of support, but it seems to me it's as effective as lecturing your dog on how immoral it is for him to piddle on the carpet.

From what I understand, the real idea of Sanctions is: "Hey, government of [oppressed country] - We're going to stop giving you poo poo, your people will suffer, and hate you for it unless you do what we want."

Sanctions have historically had a much greater impact on the poor and the masses of said sanctioned country. However, countries that are self sustainable don't really give a poo poo. This is sort of what happened in Cuba. The country is nearly self sustainable so they don't care how much America doesn't like them.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 21:19

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Does anyone else get a Mr. Miyagi vibe from Ban Ki-Moon? Seems like such a nice guy. Like the Asian grandfather i'll never have.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 21:27

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Leperflesh posted:

I would support the UN changing its mandate to include being able to act against the wholesale murder of a group of people identified as a political organization rather than an ethnic group.

However, that is not "genocide". It's something else (and something that is also horrible) but the word genocide does have an actual meaning. It refers to the attempt to eradicate a People, defined by an ethnicity or nationality.

The systematic slaughter of any human is a horrible thing. I don't understand why there is any leeway on the subject? Is there a "Well, they haven't killed 600 people yet, so we're not gonna do anything quite yet." ?
Under what conditions is the wholesale slaughter of human beings ok?

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 21:32

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Leperflesh posted:

There is a difference between "ok" and "something we agree we can respond with force against and can mobilize that force while being reasonably sure we won't just make things worse".

Add in the fact that it's a multinational summit where numerous heads of state have to agree on action before it can take place, and I think it's just not reasonable to expect such an organization - even a putative replacement for the UN that was much more effective - to agree upon and mobilize an armed military intervention in the space of a week.

I'm not saying the UN should intervene with boots on the ground, per say. I'm just trying to understand the definition.

At what point is it genocide? Is genocide worse than using anti-aircraft weapons indiscriminately on unarmed protesters? The only difference is one targets a specific race? What if the indiscriminate fire killed twice as many people as a given 'genocide'.
The gray area is all very confusing.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 21:42

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Jut posted:

It's not really that confusing...
Targeting a specific race, religion or ethnicity = genocide
anything else = war.

Why is it every single post of yours is a simplistic naive interpretation of reality?

If the government publicly executed one man for the cause of only having blue eyes, would that be genocide? War? What if they did it to a village of 15? It's not so easy to understand as "Black - white... done."

e: ^^ Awww. I know nothing of the UN politics, but this makes me sad.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 21:51

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

The Cheshire Cat posted:

It depends, are the people being executed the total amount of people who have blue eyes, or is it just a one-off? Because irrational hatred is less irrational if you don't wipe out the entire group.

(I am being facetious to point out the absurdity of arguing over the definition of "genocide". If someone is murdering a lot of people does it really matter if it's over racial or political grounds? He's still murdering people)

That's exactly my point. Genocide or not, it's wrong, and trying to define an arbitrary level of needless and senseless murder in order to decide if it's right or wrong (or acceptable not to take action of any level) seems impotent.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 21:57

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Jut posted:

Indeed.

I guess it's fine if Qaddafi bombs peaceful protesters and has the capability of dumping mustard gas on them. Oh, let's not forget he's hired international mercenaries to partake in this 'civil war'.

Quit being a douche. Genocide or not, what is happening is atrocious act and the international community shouldn't view it as anything less than that.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 22:12

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Didn't see your question, but I'm going to try and repeat what I said earlier.
My argument isn't necessarily about the physical presence the international community should or shouldn't have in this revolution. My argument is simply the definition of genocide/crimes against humanity/overall terrible poo poo.

From the reports I've read from the Libyans themselves is mixed. Some say "We need to do this revolution for ourselves. It needs to be our victory." At the same time I hear phone calls of people in the streets talking about the execution of civilians, women on balconies for the reason of only being on balconies. Reports of mercenaries destroying blood banks and specifically targeting doctors.

It's systematic. It isn't just tactical. In war you'd target generals and supply lines in an attempt to succeed in your cause. The cause of the mercenaries and Gadaffi is to cause as much death and inhumane acts upon innocent life as possible. I don't understand how that can be seen as anything less than a crime against humanity and needs to be stopped. Human suffering is not a justification for any ambition.

e;

Leperflesh posted:

There isn't a single person in this thread who has even remotely suggested that it's "fine" for innocent unarmed protesters to be murdered.

There is no indication that the "international community" regards it as anything other than atrocious.

The discussion was whether or not the UN, under its current laws, has a mandate to intervene. Your aggressive attitude towards someone who has bothered to read and understand the UN's charter and rules is unhelpful.

Fair enough. I see and understand my aggressive involvement in the discussion and will rescind any further input on the topic.

Sivias fucked around with this message at 22:29 on Feb 25, 2011

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 22:25

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Jut posted:

But seriously, what do you expect, Team America World Police to step in and remove him from power?
I'm not exaggerating...

several pages ago he was dribbling on about 'strongly worded letter' and 'Russia and China ruing everything'.

Just for the record, the first part made me giggle. And if you're referring to me as 'him' - I never said anything about some strongly worded letter or Russia and china?

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 22:41

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Nenonen posted:

I'm not sure how you would know that this isn't the intention, though. You can't target the 'generals' of an uprising without first forcing the crowds protecting them out of the streets. Saddam Hussein couldn't be taken out without killing thousands of Iraqis first, even though the US had cruise missiles and everything. Was killing all those Iraqi people a genocide? Should the UN have intervened?

To the Gaddafi government the problem is that the rebels are too stubborn to submit after the first casualties. And who is responsible for the dead? Osama bin Laden.

To your first question - frankly, yes. The US's invasion of Iraq should not have been legal. And from what I remember, it wasn't? Didn't Bush go invade Iraq without the UN consent? Just because the United States has such political and economic and world power shouldn't make us immune to the international Law.

As for the Genocide - I'm gonna try to get off the topic of it so I'll let you decide.

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 22:48

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Jut posted:

Speaking of QC, does anyone think it's possible he actually thinks he's doing the best for Lybia's independence and believes these protests are due to outside forces? I don't mean to play devils advocate, but the longer a dictator is in power, the further from reality he is kept (Hitler ordering around non-existent troops, Ceausescu going to inspect wooden apples etc...).

I wonder if it's any of the above? It seems his disconnect from reality has direct impact on the events that are happening. I wonder if his advisors understand his disconnect and have been providing him false information in order to save their own lives cause he might flip out?

e: I mean that not that he's being kept from information from his government, but that he truly can't grasp the consequences and... I don't even know how describe it (see below.)

Mental instability and the idea of a connection to reality is a very interesting thing. But associate that with power and money creates a very caustic situation.

I'd like to do some research into how humans actually understand reality and how our brains connect to it.

Sivias fucked around with this message at 23:21 on Feb 25, 2011

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 23:15

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

AJE just had a before/after of Gaddafi. He wasn't a bad looking guy when he was younger. Now he looks like a wax model that's been melting in the sun. I'm at work so I can't really GIS it. Anyone have any resources?

# ¿ Feb 25, 2011 23:40

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Xandu posted:

I support recognizing the interim government, but providing arms just seems like such a terrible idea.

The only thing America and the world should be arming these citizens with are Books and Pencils. And of course medical assistance, but that's a given.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2011 21:46

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# ¿ May 22, 2024 01:16

Sivias: Dec 12, 2006; I think we can just sit around and just talk about our feelings.

Widespread protests in China could have as widespread economic and political consequences as protests in Saudi Arabia. I ~~fear~~ that fierce opposition to peaceful protests in either of those countries could ignite the situations even further.

I wonder what would happen with North Korea if these protests in China continue?

Sivias fucked around with this message at 05:18 on Feb 28, 2011

# ¿ Feb 28, 2011 05:16

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