Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Starfury posted:

They need to get there first?

They're talking about the Saudi government, not ISIS

# ¿ Jun 14, 2014 18:02

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# ¿ May 5, 2024 15:22

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Plus being consistent and destroying the Kaaba would eliminate all that sweet, sweet money from future pilgrims.

# ¿ Jun 14, 2014 18:41

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

DOCTOR ZIMBARDO posted:

Wikileaks was a major factor in both Tunisia and Iraq as well - with the Parliament citing leaked documents as justification to non-renew US force presence. I guess for the counter factual you'd have to decide if it was US war crimes in Iraq (which might still have happened somewhere else) or the Army's atrocious treatment of transgender soldiers that "really" drove Manning to leak.

Got any links elaborating more on this?

# ¿ Jul 24, 2014 06:44

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Calling it a beheading is too nice. He loving sawed his head off.

Torpor posted:

Vice should send a lady reporter to hang around the all-female groups of fighters.

Edit: I get the feeling that the women fighters don't actually do much fighting. Most videos of the Kurds in Syria fighting has like 1 or 2 ladies standing around and the men doing everyhing.

Yeah, the female fighters get a lot of attention, but in reality it seems to be just that; PR. I've heard several people use them as proof that the Kurds are the "good guys," so it's working.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2014 03:33

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Rape and Sexual Slavery Inside an ISIS Prison

The Daily Beast posted:

Survivors who managed to escape from ISIS say the women held in its prison in Mosul face two fates: Those who convert to Islam are sold as brides to Islamist fighters for prices as low as $25, and ranging up to $150. Those who do not convert face daily rape and a slow death.

Accounts of the prison have come from women who managed to hide their cellular phones, calling relatives to describe their plight. Some imprisoned women have been forced by militants to call their families. The mother of one woman still held captive told The Daily Beast about the call she received from her daughter. She was forced to listen as her daughter detailed being raped by dozens of men over the course of a few hours. Still other women testified that multiple children had been born under these conditions, with the newborns ripped away from their mother�s arms to fates unknown.

Women who have run away from ISIS�s prison and the families of those still held captive have come to Pakhshan Zangana for help. As the head of the High Council of Women�s Affairs for The Kurdish Regional Government Zangana is trying to bring attention to the women�s plight and plead for intervention on their behalf but fears that her efforts have stalled. �We have women and families calling in every day, the situation is getting desperate,� said Zangana. Without outside aid, Zangana has turned to asking for private donations to try to buy the captured Yazidi women back from ISIS before they are sold into sexual slavery.

Mosul�s Badush prison, where the women are enslaved, has become a literal house of horrors since the Islamic State seized control of the area. During the ISIS initial assault on Mosul in June, Badush�s gates were opened and 670 Shia inmates executed. This massacre, which was confirmed by 20 survivors and 16 eyewitnesses, according to U.N. Human Rights Chief, Navi Pillay, marked only the beginning of the horrors that have occurred inside the prison after it fell under ISIS control.

Since ISIS seized Mosul in June it has used the prison to hold captured women as sex slaves, according to multiple reports, before trafficking them to third parties. Some of these women are the Yazidis who were taken during the fall of Sinjar, but they are not alone. While the number of Yazidi women have been estimated in the hundreds, sources in Iraq say that the number is even higher and includes members of other minority groups, like Turkomans and Christians.

�It�s sick,� Zangana said, while choking back tears. �[ISIS] went so far as to force the local beauticians to come in and dress them up, putting makeup on them. Then telling them to instruct the women to be submissive to their new husbands.� One Yazidi woman who escaped from ISIS told The Daily Beast that many of those held were teenagers, some as young as 14.

# ¿ Sep 3, 2014 03:51

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Xandu posted:

Worst part is there's at least 3 more of those videos to go, though I wonder if ISIS would draw the line at beheading a woman.

Has that ever happened before?

# ¿ Sep 3, 2014 05:30

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Volkerball posted:

Slit their throats.

http://www.catholic.org/news/international/middle_east/story.php?id=56481

From the same album

loving scumbags.

I can't imagine being in their position. No hope. Suffering atrocities every day but Western outrage is limited until their own citizens are endangered. IS seems to have no limits. If they do execute the female aid worker they're holding I imagine the fury would outstrip anything we've seen so far. Beheading an American woman seems like the best thing IS can do if they want to provoke the US into a hasty action.

# ¿ Sep 3, 2014 06:18

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Celexi posted:

For those wondering why IS hasn't shown a full decapitation video, i am guessing they are saving that for a "bigger" event, a full on decapitation with a knife that small is a traumatizing thing to watch, i made the mistake of watching the video of one once and it always comes to mind whenever the word is mentioned, it is horrible.

What "bigger" event? Executing Americans is about as big as it gets, in terms of getting those in power to pay attention to you.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2014 01:39

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

icantfindaname posted:

When have we ever 'westernized' a society successfully? Name even one case? What does that even mean?

As far as I can tell, successfully "westernizing" a society means you killed all the natives and replaced them with white people

# ¿ Sep 4, 2014 05:46

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

How likely is it that ISIS has killed all the hostages already and is just staggering the video releases to make it look like the West has some remote hope of saving them?

# ¿ Sep 14, 2014 04:03

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

nebby posted:

Also don't forget a few pages ago he said that ISIS posed zero threat to the US and that it would only become one if we were goaded by them into invading. This was about an hour after the leader of ISIS said:

You're a loving idiot. North Korea's said some scary poo poo as well. Do you want to invade them too?

Stop being taken in by hollow rhetoric.

# ¿ Sep 23, 2014 05:51

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Dolash posted:

If we're being fair, I've never bought the idea that the threat of terrorism is much of a reason to intervene abroad - ISIS isn't just not an existential threat to America (ignore Lindsey "we're all going to die!" Graham), it's not even much of a regular threat. More people die of perfectly mundane causes that America does little to combat than to terrorism, and more Americans die in interventions trying to prevent terrorism than from the terrorism itself. The biggest proof that they're not an existential threat is that the American public can afford to maintain this sort of hyperbolic illusion.

If America actually wanted to protect themselves from ISIS, they'd ignore them. Let the intelligence and security aparatus do their best at preventing terrorist attacks at home and otherwise just sit by and watch ISIS massacre perceived heretics by the thousands. On the off chance that an attack goes through, even if it's 9/11 in scale, the best thing to do would still be to do nothing and ignore it. It's not actually consequential to the strength and wellbeing of America as a whole unless you let it and you'll do more damage to yourself responding to it.

The stronger argument for intervention abroad should really come from trying to help people, protecting them from genocidal warlords and tyrants seizing power. Unfortunately these interventions rarely work and often only make things worse, so the circumstances where they're appropriate are pretty rare as well. In this case I'm in favor of at least using American air power to contain ISIS so they don't - for example - overrun Kurdish territory and murder everyone, but that's because the Kurds need a very specific and immediate kind of help.

When the Yazidis were trapped on Mount Sinjar, I thought the thread leaned toward intervening to save them rather than intervention is always wrong. Did I misread that and people thought it would be better if America did nothing? They already didn't really do enough.

I like this post a lot, this is what I was trying to say with "hollow rhetoric." I find calls to help in situations like Mt. Sinjar far more sympathetic (though like you point out, that doesn't mean such interventions are always likely to succeed) than people engaging in hysteria and fear-mongering over ISIS's latest propaganda message.

FourLeaf fucked around with this message at 08:23 on Sep 23, 2014

# ¿ Sep 23, 2014 08:16

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Xandu posted:

http://nyti.ms/1xQACMG

Crazy article on sarin/mustard gas discoveries/cover-up in Iraq.

Sorry for asking a dumb question but just to be sure: Why would the US try to cover up finding these chemical weapons if they were looking for WMDs to justify the invasion? Is it because they didn't want people to know the West helped Iraq develop them or "WMDs" doesn't include chemical weapons?

# ¿ Oct 15, 2014 06:30

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Really sad article in the NYT about torments ISIS hostages experienced, including James Foley before he was beheaded.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/26/world/middleeast/horror-before-the-beheadings-what-isis-hostages-endured-in-syria.html

# ¿ Oct 26, 2014 06:40

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Volkerball posted:

Speaking of refugees, what the hell Lebanon?

https://www.facebook.com/RadioSawtBeirut/photos/a.122642136838.99992.116151246838/10152757209571839/?type=1

What is this?

# ¿ Nov 14, 2014 21:36

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Invicta{HOG}, M.D. posted:

And yet they still venerate the Kaaba and the Black Stone which has always mystified me.

It brings in the pilgrims, and their money. That trumps what the hardliners want.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2014 02:17

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Volkerball posted:

ISIS just released a video of Kassig being executed. Sua sponte.

Why do most major news outlets seem to be slow on the uptake?

# ¿ Nov 16, 2014 10:15

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

BouncingBuckyBalls posted:

We are talking about people who are bound up and in a cell or dungeon most of their day and suffering some sort of torture constantly like mock executions. All of these people are not trained SEALS and would barely be able to hatch a plan on escape much less revenge. Yes keeping them alive might mean they will grab a rock and smash one of their captors on his head but during their capture they will most likely have been raped repeatedly and still will be until they can be replaced. Some of the captured women who have been allowed to make phone calls home to their Iraqi families while being raped were asking for someone to bomb their position as they did not want to live any more.

Keep in mind that for many of the captured women, even if they were somehow rescued, being raped has forever marked them as damaged goods at best. Even though it was non-consensual their families might still reject them. That may be another reason why some want to die.

The American woman wouldn't have to deal with that particular cultural quirk, but still. Horrifying

# ¿ Nov 17, 2014 19:03

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

N00ba the Hutt posted:

Erdogan has said some more fun stuff, this time about women.

quote:

Mr Erdogan has previously urged women to have three children, and has lashed out against abortion and birth by Caesarean section.

I get the rest, but what is this?

# ¿ Nov 24, 2014 19:08

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Egypt is so goddamn depressing, all hope for change brutally crushed :smith:

# ¿ Nov 27, 2014 06:52

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Effectronica posted:

Why would we be doing this for our own benefit? The language of the Bill of Rights, the Declaration of Independence, the Fourteenth Amendment, the Four Freedoms, the Declaration by the United Nations- none of these are nationalistic documents. They are expressly internationalist in thought. Shouldn't we try to live up to these ideals?

Are you really trying to argue that US has a ~MORAL DUTY~ to be the world police, when we can't even get our own poo poo together regarding our massive domestic problems?

That's not even addressing the fact that no one in the ME has forgotten the crimes we've committed or helped commit under the banner of "freedom and democracy"

# ¿ Feb 17, 2015 05:34

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Accretionist posted:

Any article recommendations on what Saudi Arabia, et al. get out of funding international terrorism? I could summarize what I know in one paragraph and I'm talking to some guys who aren't aware that side of the issue event exists.

Basically it allows them to export the dangerous radicals their state ideology inevitably creates. Better to have those guys destabilizing Syria, Chechnya, or Iraq than staying home, realizing how corrupt the KSA regime is, and starting poo poo there.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2015 05:39

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Effectronica posted:

And if you really think that the USA is incapable of ever doing good, then why aren't you doing your best to sabotage it by any means necessary and precipitate a nuclear war that will remove it from the Earth? A nation incapable of doing the right thing must be destroyed if it ever comes into existence, for the sheer threat it poses to the rest of the world.

You honestly sound loving crazy. Is that why you're saying these unbelievably naive things? Because if you accepted the US's lovely history regarding living up to its ideals you'd have to become some kind of apocalyptic supervillain?

# ¿ Feb 17, 2015 05:46

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Effectronica posted:

No. If you believed, in absolute terms, that the United States of America was only capable of neutral or evil actions internationally, then it would for the best to destroy it, because the entire rest of the world would benefit. If you don't, then there's no such obligation. But once you don't, you lose the ability to justify isolationism so patly. I guess you could somehow say that Mideasterners would never trust us without being racist, though I doubt you could and strongly dissuade you from trying.

Ya that's definitely what I said. Keep hitting those strawmen.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2015 06:10

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

SexyBlindfold posted:

An admirable attempt

I don't think you're going to get through.

ReidRansom posted:

What really sucks is that the second option leaves a nasty power vacuum, and whatever takes our place won't likely be better. A part of me I'm not entirely proud of sometimes thinks it might be preferable to go with the first, harden ourselves to whatever atrocities we'll have to commit and go in full assed, telling ourselves that maybe if we kill enough and that if we're brutal enough, maybe eventually people will develop a distaste for the whole business of war and conquest and abandon it entirely.

People don't generally respond to being brutalized by becoming better and more peaceful.

Plus, I dunno man, that sounds exactly like the kind of tendencies that allow dictators to carry out atrocities with massive popular support.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2015 07:13

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Schizotek posted:

I've always wondered if there's any modern lovely political situation in the Middle East and Asia that isn't at least 50% Britains fault. They were pretty loving prolific in political douchbaggery back in the day, and it seems any unstable situation, lovely border crises, or violent dictatorship I read up on inevitably mentions Britain and their stupidity. Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, China, Iraq, Turkey, Palestine/Israel, Saudi Arabia. I guess France enters the action pretty often too.

You could probably add Africa to that list as well... Nigeria is the first example that comes to mind.

# ¿ Apr 4, 2015 03:46

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

There has to be a name for this annoying tactic:

*discussion about women's issues in non-Western country*

*irrelevant factoid about how the United States is bad too*

Why does this always happen? Not just here, but in class discussions, too.

# ¿ Sep 29, 2015 04:30

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Zeroisanumber posted:

Is it strange to say that I'm optimistic about Iran? The Six Nation talks stopped the almost inevitable march to war between us, and Rouhani's people are looking to make big gains in the upcoming elections.

Wait, exactly how close were we to war if the deal hadn't gone through?

# ¿ Oct 8, 2015 08:45

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Some kind of explosion in Ankara according to BBC.

# ¿ Oct 10, 2015 08:49

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Cugel the Clever posted:

HDP-led rally. And to think, six years ago, I actually thought Erdogan was moving Turkey forward... The coward's no better than Assad.

Explosion: https://twitter.com/dokuz8haber/status/652762388324872192/video/1
Aftermath: https://twitter.com/ahmetsaymadi/status/652752327326236672/video/1

What are those young protesters holding hands saying?

# ¿ Oct 10, 2015 14:19

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Is there anything to this story about the British journalist found mysteriously dead- supposedly a suicide- in an Istanbul airport? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/19/jacqueline-sutton-foreign-office-died-istanbul-airport

I don't know much about her background, but hanging herself in the toilet with shoelaces over a missed flight does sound pretty implausible.

# ¿ Oct 21, 2015 13:51

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Volkerball posted:

There's 1.6 billion Muslims.

The original comment was about people in the Middle East being descended from Muhammad, not all Muslims in the world.

# ¿ Oct 23, 2015 11:16

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Brown Moses posted:

Another stabbing reported in Israel, this time it's caught on camera (work safe)
https://twitter.com/Israelcohen911/status/663295962094379008

Jesus.

# ¿ Nov 8, 2015 12:44

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

goose fleet posted:

This looks like a bad week for ISIS. I wonder how their propaganda department is going to spin this.

Welp...

FourLeaf fucked around with this message at 02:43 on Nov 14, 2015

# ¿ Nov 14, 2015 02:39

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

How could France justify fighting Assad since Assad is opposed to ISIS?

What if this just solidifies Assad's negotiating position, if France decides he's the lesser of two evils?

# ¿ Nov 14, 2015 04:59

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

my dad posted:

So, guess who made an article about Dabiq?

Cracked.com

The Safavids didn't rule Persia in the 7th century... :negative:

# ¿ Nov 19, 2015 17:33

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Bait and Swatch posted:

If Saudi puts boots in, which I doubt will happen, their Arab allies will likely want to join the fun. Just thinking of the variety of soldiers, vehicles and aircraft that would be fighting over the rubble that was Syria is astounding. Any other civil war in history draw this wide an array of foreign involvement?

Spanish Civil War?

# ¿ Feb 4, 2016 23:07

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Sergg posted:

Realtalk I fully believe that Obama is a closeted atheist. Both of his parents and his grandparents were atheists and he was raised as one. He only conveniently "found god" at the age of 26 while networking with Chicago's black community.

Interesting. You remind me of whoever it was in USPol years ago that was saying something similar about how Obama chose Michelle to date and marry. It was kind of insulting at first, but slowly started to make sense in terms of what kind of spouse would be best for Obama's future political career.

# ¿ Feb 29, 2016 06:59

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

Just to be clear: 2 explosions at airport, plus 2 explosions at the metro?

# ¿ Mar 22, 2016 09:43

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# ¿ May 5, 2024 15:22

FourLeaf: Dec 2, 2011

I was under the impression that the intention of the UN was to prevent another world war, not be the world police that intervenes in all conflicts around the world. Am I wrong?

# ¿ May 9, 2016 23:04

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