Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Ghadaffi on Libyan state TV going on about how the US is going to get their rear end kicked like they do in every war

Ireland Sucks fucked around with this message at 10:49 on Mar 20, 2011

# ¿ Mar 20, 2011 10:44

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 21:53

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Apparently US fast jets have hit ground forces too

# ¿ Mar 20, 2011 13:04

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Simtex posted:

I hate it when news sites post pictures without captions, or captions that don't describe where they came from/what they are of.

This just popped up on the BBC News website, does anyone know where it was taken/what its of?

Is that a tank in the bottom right? Could be from the same place this was taken

which is one of the tanks that got blown up yesterday, although apparently the French used rockets for that and as the above poster said there wouldn't be so much fire

# ¿ Mar 20, 2011 13:52

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Jut posted:

The State of Palestine has been asking for help for years and not received it.
This is a bunch of Western nations seeking to overthrow CQ's libya following the premature support for what looked to be another flash revolution. Nice way to save face.

Sure if we are intervening here we should have been intervening in Sudan/Zimbabwe/NK/Israel etc but you have to work with what you can politically and militarily afford. I think everyone sees the hypocrisy in only intervening in states where there isn't massive opposition from important players but that isn't a reason not to intervene when everyone on the security council is persuaded not to veto action.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2011 18:23

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Xandu posted:

Pentagon briefing on Libya happening now

"We believe his forces are suffering from a great deal of stress, isolation and confusion"

# ¿ Mar 20, 2011 21:09

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Freigeist posted:

There were reports earlier on Twitter that Gaddafi was not in Tripoli anymore, but in Gadames, which is a small oasis town near the Algerian border. No idea how credible that is. I imagine he is not hanging out in his residence right now though

Pretty much every report on Twitter about these leaders has been wrong

# ¿ Mar 20, 2011 22:25

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

cioxx posted:

Almanara: "Breaking News: Khames (#Gaddafi Son) Has died - Confirmed"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khamis_al-Gaddafi

quote:

3 Almanara Media is confirming from trusted sources that Khamis Al Gaddafi has passed away on Sunday due to severe burn injuries he sustained a few days ago. The burns were caused when a fighter jet pilot performed a martyr mission and crashed his fighter jet into Gaddafi�s compound Baab Al Aziziyah. IMPORTANT: We are only citing Almanara Media for this news. We have not confirmed it via any other source.

Even with the coalitions stated goals, you would have to be very reckless to be hanging around that compound this weekend

# ¿ Mar 21, 2011 01:43

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

XK posted:

Your statement was a bit intriguing with the supersonic missile shooting part, and I was hoping you weren't thinking rebels were carrying out on-going coordinated air-strikes. They do apparently have a few planes, but it's pretty rag-tag.

Great stroke of luck that kamikaze plane taking out Khamis, if true. The other way I heard the story is that it was a plane that had just taken off from Tripoli to bomb some place, but the pilot instead flew into the compound.

The BBC is reporting more air and cruise missile strikes tonight, which would be a better explanation of the big explosion everyone heard in Tripoli

guardian blog posted:

11.02pm: The building which has been destroyed by a missile strike inside Gaddafi's compound was an administrative building, the AFP news agency has added.

They probably found out which building was the command center

Ireland Sucks fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Mar 21, 2011

# ¿ Mar 21, 2011 02:08

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

XK posted:

I was referring to a hypothetical event which occurred before the UN approved the resolution.

Oh. I guess I've lost track of how many times the guy has died too then

# ¿ Mar 21, 2011 02:14

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

ChaosSamusX posted:

And this is the third largest city in the country. Where the hell are the fighter jets?

quote:

#
2233: The man said there were at least 40 tanks in place in the foothills of the mountains near Zintan.

Dunno but it sounds like a shooting gallery

# ¿ Mar 22, 2011 01:12

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Tadhg posted:

BrownMoses made a good point a few days ago that a lot of news feeds are running wild with the Tweets regarding Libya. Somebody tweets it, somebody else retweets it, and then people claim that it's legit news. An example being the alleged rebel suicide pilot from a few days ago. I haven't seen anything verifying it, and to my knowledge official sources from the rebels deny it. (BTW, if this has been verified please post some links- it's something that even Qaddafi/Libya State TV is repeating, which is interesting.)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3482834/Colonel-Gaddafis-commander-son-is-killed-by-Kamikaze-Libyan-pilot.html

It's on the front page of the UKs biggest selling newspaper today but I couldn't find a good image since my work connection is so slow. Settle for a picture of Murdochs face, which should make you more angry.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2011 14:26

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Nonsense posted:

How about you get over yourself, and realize American soldiers make poo poo loads of mistakes very often during operations? Sorry but they really do. They're already court-martialing some disgusting rear end in a top hat who went around with a few other soldiers murdering civilians wantonly in Afghanistan. These recovery guys obviously had no such intent, but they over reacted and civilians were hurt. Mistakes are made, often with no reason.

The bombing will continue, and the rebellion is still under siege.

The criticism wouldn't be so strong if it wasn't the very instant Marines set foot on the ground, the very first time that we are aware of them operating in Libya. It just sounds like they are trained to go "MARINE SMASH" and fire at everything everywhere all the time. Hopefully this is is just more bullshit and the pickup did occur completely without incident like the military said it did (and I suspect they are telling the truth given how much misinformation is coming from this conflict), but 'even soldiers make mistakes often' would not excuse the only publicly known boots on the ground operation being a bloodbath of friendlies.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2011 19:34

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Nenonen posted:

Seems pretty standard stuff for initiating recruits in any European army... some 50-100 years ago, probably still in Russia. Bullying the recruits tends to be a lot worse most of the time where it's allowed, I would bet that that was an unusually pleasant day for them compared to usual.

I seem to remember reading a report that certain parts of the Peruvian special forces tied a dog up and cut its heart out while it was alive. Hopefully there would have been public backlash there that stopped it but what the gently caress.

I'd like to think European nations are participating in this because their public demands it, translating to much needed popularity boosts for struggling governments: good enough reason for me, at least better than more cynical economic or security explanations. With the recent Lockerbie coverage I'm kinda surprised the American public don't feel the same way considering how much they like killing their own murderers.

Vir posted:

I pretty much expect to see non-tanks be called tanks, and planes dropping defensive flares to be "bombing", and get pleasantly surprised when they do it right. Likewise people having trigger discipline and aiming their guns.

Maybe journalists just call them tanks because they think more accurate and complicated descriptions detract from the point their making, rather than just out of ignorance of the hardware.

# ¿ Mar 22, 2011 23:25

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Nenonen posted:

Wasn't the claim of Khamis' death related to the claim of a suicide airplane attack on the Gaddafi complex in Tripoli, which was disproven? Or have there been other claims of his death since?

It hasn't been disproven, there is lots of speculation about it but until Khamis turns up somewhere or the wreckage of a plane is found in the rubble then we won't know for sure. We know a Tomahawk fired from a Royal Navy submarine levelled one building in his compound, but did that attack kill him? Did a suicide bomber? Is he dead at all? gently caress knows.

It does seem a bit unlikely that even a rebel plane would be flying around over Tripoli though.

Ireland Sucks fucked around with this message at 23:46 on Mar 22, 2011

# ¿ Mar 22, 2011 23:44

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Nombres posted:

"Sarkozy, remember before that Suez thing where you guys still owned part of the playground? Wanna go back to that? That'd be cool, wouldn't it?"

Mentioning Suez sounds like a brilliant way to get the French to help out their American buddies in their time of need

# ¿ Mar 23, 2011 08:51

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Young Freud posted:

I'm wondering 1) how do the rebels take possession of an abandoned tank and 2) what's stopping the coalition from blowing them up once the rebels have gotten a hold of them?

I expect the coalition are basing their strikes on intelligence rather than just blowing everything up with wheels and guns. We know they have been targeting tanks based on information from rebels on some occasions and i'm sure NATO would love for them to be a more effective force so they must want to work with tank ridin' rebels. Having said that if a pilot thinks a vehicle is shelling a town he will probably blow it up, even if that tank was just attacking a different tank which was actually shelling a town (before also being blown up).

# ¿ Mar 23, 2011 22:39

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

breaklaw posted:

How many billions? I thought we just moved subs and carriers that were not that far away already (Bahrain 5th Fleet) and let a couple hundred missiles fly? This poo poo happen way too fast for it to be that expensive.

The UK operation has been in the region of '10s of millions' so far according to the chancellor. I know the US operation has been bigger but certainly not in the range of billions. And this money was never going to go on food programmes anyway.

Ireland Sucks fucked around with this message at 00:03 on Mar 24, 2011

# ¿ Mar 24, 2011 00:00

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

CeeJee posted:

The con that was pulled off here is quite amazing, I wonder which publicity firm was behind all those tweets claiming rebel victories and defections to the rebels.

There were a lot of initial rebel victories and the rebels consist of a lot of ex-Ghadaffi loyalists, the initial reports don't have to be false. Unfortunately when the army finally got its poo poo together and organised columns of tanks and hordes of foreign mercenaries the rebels inexperience and lack of training and equipment shone through in their inability to hold ground.

And its not '1000 men' it's 1000 trained men. The rest are ordinary people with guns, hence the chaos and losses.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2011 23:17

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

farraday posted:

Unlike this line of discussion, this could be interesting.

Libya rebels arrest man suspected of Yvonne Fletcher murder 27 years ago

Wow I had not expected this. His lawyers will probably have an absolute field day with the legality of getting him here though.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2011 02:26

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Cartouche posted:

I have to wonder, how exactly are pro-Daffi folks getting orders and communicating between one another? Cell phones?

I'm pretty sure the coalition has been actively working on preventing them from communicating, and I seriously doubt there is coverage in the desert-like expanses between the towns so it will probably either be landlines or messengers. Motorbike messengers are particularly effective in an atmosphere of communication interception/suppression.

Having said that various leaders have said that Ghadaffi troops have often become isolated from their command and that has caused big problems in conjunction with air strikes. I do have to wonder how much the frontline troops actually know about the situation though. Where they expecting the west to attack them or were they blissfully unaware until it happened?

Ireland Sucks fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Mar 26, 2011

# ¿ Mar 26, 2011 15:02

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Nice looking map

Also

quote:

Meanwhile, rebels in the stronghold of Benghazi say oil fields in the areas they control are producing 100,000 to 130,000 barrels per day, and that this could easily be increased to 300,000.

Ali Tarhouni, a spokesman for the rebel council in Benghazi, said they had reached a deal with Qatar that it would market the oil.

# ¿ Mar 27, 2011 19:22

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Cao Ni Ma posted:

Last I heard he was in a coma but I dont know if he ever woke up from it.

That was Ben Ali (of Tunisia)

# ¿ Mar 27, 2011 22:46

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

farraday posted:

I think you're overselling it. The problem with mass defections is they remove from the situation people disaffected with the regime. While they may or may not have been in a position to create a cop, they are clearly the soft supporters of Qaddafi a coup would rely on to gain momentum.

Yeah dictators in other Arab countries have been perfectly happy to just boot out their entire government themselves. Everyone non directly related to Ghadaffi is just a meaningless pawn to him.

# ¿ Mar 30, 2011 23:37

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Say what you like about their ability to defend their gains but I am constantly astounded that Misrata hasn't fallen

# ¿ Apr 2, 2011 23:47

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

NATO are in a pretty good position to interpret it however they want

# ¿ Apr 2, 2011 23:58

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

NATO is also pretty hamstrung by Turkey in what it can do. They had to agree to "airstrikes-only" just to get things rolling.

# ¿ Apr 10, 2011 23:19

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Slantedfloors posted:

Israel isn't in that nebulous gray area they try to keep around, they're officially illegally occupying another country's sovereign territory and liable for the whole gamut of responses that situation entails.

oh no an endless stream of vetoed resolutions how will it survive

# ¿ Apr 28, 2011 01:34

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

The NATO argument is that he (part of the command and control infrastructure) is ordering civilians to be killed and killing him protects them. Seems reasonable to me.

# ¿ May 1, 2011 00:53

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Brown Moses posted:

My understanding is there's always been smuggling routes in that region, some of which were used to smuggle weapons into Libya at the start of the conflict when Gaddafi controlled the border, so it might just be a case of the reporter bringing Al Qaeda into a story that would normally just be ignored as another smuggling incident.

Do Al Qaeda even have a big need for guns? Aside from not exactly being known for their armed raids, the constant references to them make it sound like a bad guy organisation from James Bond or Action man. I'm sure there must be some drug lords or North Korean fixers willing to pay bigger bux for ridiculous belgian guns.

# ¿ May 11, 2011 20:17

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Finlander posted:

Hmm.
Well, if it is a lie, it's a huge gamble. I mean, sure, it might make the people in the city try and rebel, as well, but that would most likely just end in them getting slaughtered, with the final result being an even more oppressed and demoralized city.
I'm not even sure why they would do something like that.

I doubt twitter is the primary method of communication between the rebel leaders and the population

# ¿ May 13, 2011 21:59

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Mad Doctor Cthulhu posted:

Ben Stein's insanity can be summed up like this: He went from a speechwriter for one of the worst presidents in history, then salvaged himself by acting in a lot of things, and THEN threw that all away just to speak out in favor of Nixon and his own insanity for absolutely nothing but his reputation, his job, and a lot of money.

In short? The man's a loving idiot.

I was thinking 'what? how can the man who did Religulous be this much of a whackjob?'. Then I realised which documentary was actually supposed to spring to mind when I see his name. What a terrible man.

# ¿ May 16, 2011 21:09

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Young Freud posted:

True, however the biggest force multiplier isn't accurate, sophisticated weapons, it's training. It really seems that the main prerequisites of being an elite member of the Khamis battalion was loyalty and their ability to dish out brutality. If it came down to it, a U.S. Marine straight out of Paris Island (or really any infantry soldier from a NATO country) could mop the floor of a elite loyalist soldier under the Qaddafi regime, because that Marine, Squaddie, Legionnaire or other NATO infantry line soldier is rigorously trained (there's a figure that the US spent something like 250,000 rounds of ammo per 1 kill, but really, something like 90% or more of that is training. Marksmanship is key to American and NATO infantry training, with an expectation of being able to hit at least 70% of the targets presented during qualification, which is more difficult than it seems). Not just that, but they're not only expected to bring the hurt but take it as well.

Is there any reason Ghadaffis best troops wouldn't be given thousands of boxes of ammo and told to train until they were good and then keep training? It's not like military tactics are a closely guarded NATO secret

# ¿ May 28, 2011 22:24

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Ardent Communist posted:

One can't deny that the intention of NATO should be under scrutiny. Why are they acting in this conflict but not in Yemen or Syria? Non-combatant protesters are under attack in those countries, but there hasn't been an US-led intervention to protect those civilians?
Is it just because those in Libya are more valued? http://www.cnbc.com/id/42308613/Libyan_Rebels_Form_Their_Own_Central_Bank

They might be under attack in other countries but I think the Libyan intervention was caused by the scale and speed of the revolution being such that there was a reasonable chance of success, and the Ghadaffi's response being psychopathic enough to level entire cities to bring things back under his control.

Arguably more importantly: it also helps that it is on the EU's doorstep so the barriers to bombing are significantly lower: any willing military in Europe can fly missions from European airspace. How are they going to get to Yemen? It would require significant US support, which was tenous even for Libya. Getting involved in a fourth conflict in an Arab country is near enough out of the question for the US even if the death tolls reach far more dramatic numbers.

Sure being on the edge of the Mediterranean makes it more politically interesting than Yemen but calling Libya a western oil grab is putting far too much confidence in our politicians abilities to plan ahead.

edit:Syria I guess is also close enough but Libya got there first and was bigger. Also Turkey would throw a shitfit.

Ireland Sucks fucked around with this message at 20:47 on May 30, 2011

# ¿ May 30, 2011 20:45

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

automatic posted:

As Zedsdeadbaby said, the silence from the world community is loving deafening. Why so much emphasis on Yemen? poo poo is basically a tribal war....Syria seems to be the most pressing place for the arab spring to happen at this point in time and its basically page 12 news.

To be honest I get the impression that people (the press, governments, etc) have basically accepted as a reality that the uprising in Syria is going to be crushed and given the political situation regarding other ongoing interventions there isn't much we can do about it so focus on places with a bit more hope :unsmith:

. (and more journalists)

# ¿ Jun 1, 2011 18:48

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Ballz posted:

Which is strange as hell, because I thought Qatar was openly siding with the Libyan rebels.

Edit: They did say she was deported to eastern Libya, which is fully under rebel control, right? That... well, that only raises more questions.

Qatar is still an Arab dictatorship: they are not going to want to keep a shameful rape victim immigrant who is a major symbol of revolution and fighting the power. I'm suprised she even went there and not Sweden or whatever country likes to take in famous refugees.

# ¿ Jun 2, 2011 22:22

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Heran Bago posted:

Back in 2009 Iran shut off their internet and college students swarmed to proxies. I set up some small Windows program that shared my connection with several Iranians and Chinese people for http only.

I'd like to set up a proxy of this sort again but the only information I can find on creating one's own proxy server are formal/classic actual servers. Any advice or ideas on what that program was? I can set up a proxy but handing out the IP to people who can actually use it is beyond me.

https://www.torproject.org/
Their blog also has some interesting reports on how Iran/Egypt etc go about attempting to block them and how they respond.

# ¿ Jun 3, 2011 22:11

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

More detail about the helicopter strikes

bbc posted:

UK Apache attack helicopters have been used over Libya for the first time, Nato has confirmed.

They attacked and destroyed two military installations, a radar site and an armed checkpoint near Brega, the Captain of HMS Ocean told the BBC.

The Apaches are understood to have faced incoming fire.

French Gazelle helicopters also took part in simultaneous attacks on different targets in Libya for the first time.

On Wednesday, Nato extended its mission in Libya by 90 days.

Major General Nick Pope, the chief of the defence staff's strategic communications officer, said:"The Apaches were tasked with precision strikes against a regime radar installation and a military checkpoint, both located around Brega.

"Hellfire missiles and 30mm cannon were used to destroy the targets. The helicopters then returned safely to HMS Ocean."

He said the targets had been "carefully and rigorously selected" and said intelligence about the positions of the Gaddafi forces had been improving "despite their efforts to conceal themselves".

Defence Secretary Liam Fox added: "The attack helicopter is yet another potent and formidable aircraft type which has now been added to the Nato forces engaged on this operation. Those who are still supporting Colonel Gaddafi would do well to realise that the best way to remove themselves from danger is to understand that their future lies with the Libyan people, not a discredited regime."

Two of the four Apaches on board HMS Ocean left under the cover of darkness. From the ship you can see the lights on Libya's coast.

This was a mission that would signal an escalation in the bombing campaign. It would also come with added risks.

The Apaches fly lower and slower than other Nato warplanes - able to identify a wider range of targets, but also more vulnerable to attacks from the ground.

The former head of the Army, Lord Dannatt, said the move has an "inevitable intensification".

"If you pick up the words from when President Obama was visiting, what we've heard the prime minister say, we don't want to let this thing linger on any more than we absolutely have to.

"The mission under UNHCR 1973 is quite clear, it's to protect people but of course the implied task, and let's be absolutely open and honest about it, is the removal of Colonel Gaddafi."
Missile risk

The decision to send four British Apache helicopters to Libya was made by Prime Minister David Cameron on 27 May.

Their deployment via HMS Ocean means there should be less chance of civilian casualties in operations that previously relied on the use of Tornado and Typhoon aircraft.

But the Apaches operate at lower altitudes and could be targeted by Libyan forces loyal to Col Gaddafi, which still have access to thousands of surface-to-air missiles

# ¿ Jun 4, 2011 10:23

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Brown Moses posted:

Caro just posted this on GiP:

At some point he's going to get himself or someone else killed. At least he posted some slightly interesting first hand info.

Although he has coherency problems he is at least a productive nutter. Kind of reminds me of the foreigners going to fight in the Spanish revolution, except just to watch and perform amateur surgery on people.

I do wonder about the frigate challenge though, I thought NATO would be ushering in stuff from Benghazi.

Ireland Sucks fucked around with this message at 14:31 on Jun 4, 2011

# ¿ Jun 4, 2011 14:29

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

Xandu posted:

AJE and the NYT both walked back their reports and now are saying that there's Saudi doctors in Yemen and a medical plane at the airport just in case.

Apparently the Saudis have now said he is in fact in Saudi Arabia

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-13658445 posted:

Yemen's president Ali Abdullah Saleh has flown to Saudi Arabia for medical treatment, a day after he was wounded when his palace was shelled, Saudi officials say.

Uncertainty surrounded Mr Saleh's whereabouts for much of Saturday.

Sources in Yemen told the BBC that Mr Saleh had a piece of shrapnel below his heart and second-degree burns.

An uprising demanding that the president leave power has brought Yemen close to civil war.

Namarrgon posted:

From what I gather only Ben Ali had the proper state of mind to leave so far and even he could have left as soon as the heat came and have enough money to find his own loving dynasty.

According to the pilot and the soldiers seeing him onto the plane his domineering wife ordered him to very reluctantly get on the plane and he spent the entire trip trying to get reassurance from the pilot that he was going to take him back to Tunisia after his family had been dropped off. I also seem to remember the plane leaving him at the airport and going back to Tunisia but I can't find any articles backing that up and might be thinking of Mubarak.

# ¿ Jun 5, 2011 00:23

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# ¿ May 21, 2024 21:53

Ireland Sucks: May 16, 2004

If the president himself is near enough assassinated in his own compound then you have to wonder how much control his family will actually have left to wield

# ¿ Jun 5, 2011 01:09

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Middle East Thread of Despair: More Broken Than Syria

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