The Malazan Book of the Fallen: Too many wor'ds.

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Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

The opening scene would have to stay. It's not a prologue to the first book, but rather to the series. I can't say more without spoiling the end of the series.

It also ties in with the story in gotm itself, especially with Lorn and Tattersail.

And of course (whole series spoiler) the main character of the series being in the opening and closing scene is real cliche, but hiding who that main character is (Fiddler) for so long was genius.

# ¿ Dec 25, 2011 15:41

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 10:37

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

the least weasel posted:

Well, I'm pretty sure it's still a GotM-ism. As far as I can remember disregarding "special" mages like Beak who was basically an idiot savant most of the people who use the same "set" of magic had a pretty homogenous experience of how it worked post-GotM. Correct me if I'm wrong, preferably with specific examples that don't involve QB or Beak, but that's the feeling I had.

Tattersail herself is something of a savant. Remember she could be a high Mage, was almost master of the deck, is mentally hosed up by the events of the prologue and if not for her death would have been a major major player.

# ¿ Dec 31, 2011 00:39

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Lyer posted:

I think the series ends the way it started; unceremoniously dropped off with a whole bunch of questions. We basically see a segment of an overall story and while some threads get answered, others do continue on without us ever knowing.

What's interesting is we see the Bridge Burners effectively getting destroyed in GOTM and we have no idea why they're so special. During the course of the series, we see the growth of the Bonehunters and as the last book ends, the BH effectively become just as badass as the Bridgeburners. It's kind of like that I feel.

It's also quite cool that there's the ever present hints of back story, which show Dassem and his First Sword were once the Malazan badass squad.

The rise and fall of [ ] is definitely a theme in the series.

# ¿ Jan 30, 2012 20:40

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

pakman posted:

Last night while I should have been sleeping, I was reading a couple chapters in House of Chains, and drat, what a confluence of events in just those two chapters.

Not sure where to start, so I'll just go by what I remember. First of al the fight at the Throne of Shadows where Cotillion shows up. I guess we know how he got the name The Rope now. What I don't understand is the man that was with the Malazans in the cave now taking over the defense of the Throne. I don't think his actual name was given just that he was called Traveler. I also don't understand what happened with the Hound of Shadow that Cutter (Crokus) called on to help. Instead it just sat there until Cotillion showed up? Did the Tiste Edur say something to keep the Hound from attacking because they know how to control it? Cool battle scene, anyway.

I also remember Onrack binding(?) himself to Trull during the ritual with the Tiste Liosan that were trying to open the warren of Kurald Thyrall. And then the other Imass there that were hunting Onrack stepped inside the gate to kill the false god, who happens to be the familiar of L'oric in the Whirlwind who also happens to be Tiste Edur. So with 3 of the Imass in the warren of fire, the 4th was pursuing Onrack and Trull in his gorilla Soletaken form. Did the boncaster not enjoy Onrack binding himself to Trull? Again, not exactly sure what happened at that part.

Ghost Hands becomes the Destraint of Treach while on a bad trip of Hen'bara tea. So the Jade figures have something to do with the House of Chains and the Otataral is there to keep it in place, and where ever there is otataral in the world, there will be a jade figure nearby? The otataral being there for a purpose was described earlier. So there may be another jade figure near the Teblor homelands since that is what bloodoil was made with.

In the same vein we have L'oric. I am not sure of his motivations. Was he the guardian of that warren and pretending to be a god? Or was he trying to keep the Crippled God from infesting the warren with poison and the Imass ruined that so he sought help from the Queen of Dreams? After L'oric wakes up from the trance, he senses young Felisin nearby who had been violated by Bidithal, and Felisin is now going to be "working" for Karsa's gods for revenge.

Lastly we have Kalam who killed a demon trapped since the time of the T'lan Imass. There was a blurb after that fight about a chained Toblokai of pure blood under where the demon was that used to be possessed. And then Iskaral Pust comes out of nowhere and finds Kalam. I like Pust.

There was a lot packed into those two chapters.

I might have forgot some things, but...

The Rope is Cotillion's title, just as Ammanas has the title "Shadowthrone".

Traveller's name will be revealed later. It'd be a major spoiler, so I won't spoil it.

The Edur were the original masters of Shadow, and the hound recognised it's rightful masters.

The Otataral is suppressing the Jade Statues, which are linked to the Crippled God. Otataral itself isn't related to the Jade though. It's simply something that happens when a huge magical discharge happens. Just as heat and pressure can morph rocks, huge amounts of magic can. It then creates what can best be described as anti-magic. The eldest magics don't seem to be affected though, suggesting newer magics perhaps "draw" magic from their surroundings, and drawing too much can cause a physical scar that hampers said drawing? That's more my theory than anything though.

And yeah, Pust is awesome. He's definitely a LOT more than he seems.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2012 14:51

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

BananaNutkins posted:

I friggin' hate Dickens, but I wasn't saying that you couldn't use names that have associated meanings. I was pointing out how much going from crazy fantasy names to those simple names clashed for me.

Different cultures have different naming conventions.

It'd be odder if people from opposite sides of the globe had similar names really.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2012 09:30

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Decius posted:

Finished it now and I liked it quite a bit (disclaimer: I also liked the other ICE books). Writing again has improved and the plot was mostly very interesting. The characters were mostly very much as they are in Erikson's hands Lady Envy was the exception for me.

I had only one issue with the book: When the Malazan Army makes their stand against the Seguleh. Firstly - crossbows should work very nicely, no reason to fight this as pitched melee battle. I know ICE removed the mages and munition for just that reason, but the soldiers should still have ranged weaponry. Enough bolts and the Seguleh can't evade/deflect them any longer. But only when Fist Steppen defended the fort they used them.

Secondly, the reaction by the Malazans when the Seguleh get blown to pieces. It seemed completely out of place. Crying and mourning for the guys who just murdered half your comrades? Because they got blown up "unfairly" by an air bomb raid? Why? The Malazan sappers do that stuff with enemy infantry all the time, just not from the air, but with minefields, throwing weapons, rigged infrastructure. The Malazans have fought for years next to the Moranth, they surely have seen such tactics before. High Mages kill thousands in seconds, without the victims even seeing them. And now this reaction for 400 faceless Seguleh? Doesn't fit at all, them reacting like they just saw the T'lan Imass razing Y'Ghatan or Leoman burning Y'Ghatan

Pretty sure we will see a reason for K'rul's gender bender sooner or later, as the change was mentioned as odd in the book.

I've finished Orb Sceptre Throne myself now, and yeah. I definitely agree with your first spoiler. Both the first and second points. It really didn't make any sense.

And your second spoiler, yeah. It was a mind gently caress, but you're right. It'll almost certainly be addressed later.

Overall, I was pretty impressed. I hated Night of Knives, thought Return of the Crimson Guard was almost Erikson level, wasn't blown away by Stonewielder (thought it was a step backwards), but went from 20% into this book to finished in one day. Once it reached that critical point where we start caring about the various stories, it was near impossible to put down. I can't really comment on the writing, as I'm no expert there, but the storytelling was amazing. There not only wasn't a single unimportant plotline, it even tied together seemingly unimportant ones from Esslemont's other books.

My only real problems were that it didn't address the new emporer, I expected more on him by now. We've spent 2 Esslemont books waiting for him to either meet his end or prove himself, but instead he's just been a side figure, uninvolved in the stories themselves[spoiler] or our old friend [spoiler]Karsa, who was apparantly in the Darujhistan area during all this, yet didn't actually take part, or even appear, in the story. I'm also struggling to remember what part Brood played in the finale. He was built up as a major player in the convergence, but having just put the book down I can't actually remember him doing anything in the finale. Brood was ready to walk in to Darujhistan and put an end to the tyrant, but in the end Kruppe set up the guards to wound him, then pretty much finished him off himself didn't he?

# ¿ Feb 5, 2012 22:09

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

savinhill posted:

One weird thing I noticed was how he described Stonny and Blend as being heavy. I don't think either of them were described that way before and I always pictured them both as skinny.

Something worth remembering is that they've been retired for a few years now. Running a bar, sitting around eating, drinking and chatting about old times. While they keep sharp I'm sure, they are no longer active military.

How many sport stars end up fat when they retire? Gaining a few pound is pretty much expected with their recent way of life.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2012 00:13

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

I think a better way to describe it, rather than "using up" all the power, is with a sun analogy.

Assume the sun is up there, but the sky is a giant piece of blackout paper. So you can't see the sun. Now use a flat earth with the sun always overhead or this breaks down with day/night and all.

Using magic is taking a giant pole and poking a little hole in that paper. As a result, a little bit of light (magic energy) comes through. This magic energy can be manipulated by the people who can poke holes. The paper tries to heal itself though, so to keep using the power you have to keep that hole poked.

Now imagine lots of paper and lots of suns in different realities. That's what Quickben does when wielding multiple warrens. He's poking lots of holes at the same time and keeping them all poked.

People sensitive to light (magic) can see this ray of light breaking down, and roughly where it's hitting. As such, magic is detectable, and power draws power.

Now a full unveiling is ripping away ALL of the paper over that section of the world, so you can see the whole sun and some of the sky behind it too. This is a HUGE amount of light (power) compared to the usual pinpricks people make. Unfortunately, this also permanently damages the paper over that bit of sky, so there's a permanent hole/gate, or at least a very long term one.

Of course, poking these holes or even ripping the entire paper away doesn't "use up" the sun's energy, or the warren's magic. In fact, what gets through even without the paper is a tiny fraction of the power being radiated every second anyway. So yeah, even a full unveiling in multiple places across Wu wouldn't "use up" a warren. It'd simply allow more of it's power to radiate into Wu, rather than being bounced out into chaos.

Because chaos, is of course, space. It's where power that the warrens radiate off end up. That's why it's "between" the warrens. Inhabitable worlds are planets with atmospheres, bouncing back most or all of that power, and warrens themselves are suns.

# ¿ Feb 21, 2012 14:18

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

This is going to have whole series, and CAM offspin spoilers, so, yeah.

In GOTM, Raest said the following to K'rul. "You passed into the Realms of Chaos, returned to the place of your birth. You are among us no more."

In Orb, Sceptre, Throne we see Tayschrenn with "The maker". Tays had stepped into the first light or something similar, and was cleansed by it. It is where all life, all beings, are born from.

So that point of origin... It's chaos. Yet out of it, all of the flavours of magic can emerge.

In effect, chaos is one of two things. It's either pure magic, from which the warrens, holds and elder magic can be refracted from (a source of pure light), or the chaotic combination of all the warrens, of all the different flavours of light. Kind of like if you shined all possible wavelengths of light together. (a repository of pure light.)

We also know that Hairlock could travel through chaos, and that Toc spent a while wandering it, totally lost and alone (until he met his wolf buddy), in darkness.

So chaos is, in my analogy, either a meta-sun that magically powers all other suns and can therefore be stepped back into (in, say, a 4th dimension) as it must link all of the suns... Or it's space. It's between the warrens. The path between the warrens is quite simply the space between them. Which also explains how Hairlock went from travelling on the edges of warrens, beneath the notice of their inhabitants, to travelling through pure chaos. Warrens don't have a set boundary, but rather fade off into space. Warrens in their pure metaphysical form that is, not the constructs sentient minds shape with the powers of the warrens to create the "warrens" people travel through, places like Shadowthrone's realm which we already know is a non permanent model created from the warren's controllers minds.

For me, if chaos was the source of power, chaos would be at the heart of a warren. The fact that it's at the edges of a warren imply a more sun and space like construct to me. Chaos is simply all possible warrens mixed together, because they are all radiating off their power/presence, and most of it isn't going into worlds to be used as magic, but rather just bounced off into chaos to mix, mingle and create a tangled mess.

Also, chaos has been described as entropy. The chaos / darkness curse is pretty much a tribal/cultural interpretation for the eventual end of the universe, when space pulls itself so thin that matter cannot exist, when entropy finally wins. It's an analogy to what will quite literally happen to everything eventually, given that the expanding universe theory is true.

And no, space is mostly void of matter. It's pretty heavily packed with radiation. Seeing as we're using radiation, rather than mass, as power here, space/chaos would be pretty, well... chaotic. Tapping into chaos is basically tearing a hole in ALL the warren filters, including ones whos filter would ALWAYS be up and never tampered with. As such, chaos/space isn't the "source" of the power as such, the source is still ALL those warrens, but the flavour of power that comes through is identical to that in space, in chaos. It's chaotic. It's all warrens. It's a mix, a jumble.

Edit: Dragons are all born in chaos, then pass into reality.
Wu legend has it that there was a second moon, a giant dragon egg. When it broke, dragons filled into the world.

That's a direct analogy from Steven Eriksen himself between chaos, where dragons are born and space, where dragons were born in myth.

That said, I'm not claiming the sun in Wu is a warren, simply that on a different "level" of reality magic, warrens, space and worlds operate in a similar way to how radiation, stars, chaos and worlds operate. Only with different "ozone layers" for each sun, which are somehow magically manipulatable by sentient beings.

Masonity fucked around with this message at 11:11 on Feb 22, 2012

# ¿ Feb 22, 2012 10:59

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Abalieno posted:

I usually deal with this type of stuff linguistically because it usually leads to discover more aspects and it's always coherent.

Malazan is about the human point of view, so I usually restrain to look for a naturalistic explanation.

Yes, everything comes from chaos, because meaning is carved from chaos. Chaos is simply unregulated space. At the same time chaos is also fluid because it can be transformed and regulated, so you can subtract spaces from it the same way you create meaning from chaos.

And then there are thematic levels since chaos is about the lack of meaning, so alien to the human condition, etc...

"Space" implies a relative position when instead the warrens sit in their own dimensions and are blurred at their margins. They don't have a spatial location. While instead as linguistic constructs their "meaning" doesn't need to have a specific place. They just exist.

And if definitely seems that sentient minds shape warrens. Otherwise they wouldn't exist: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principle

I think with erikson the answer is both the naturalistic point of view and the human view are right, depending what truth you are looking for. His world works in multiple ways, and if that is contradictory in parts, well belief systems are. And his story basically starts with the premiss "what if magic and creation myths were real?"

I agree that space is the wrong word for warrens and chaos. It was a model to better understand it. They are clearly based on a non spatial dimensional plane. I just meant that if we view warrens as star like energy sources, chaos is a space like void between the energy sources and the viable worlds, filled with magic from all warrens just as space is full of radiation from all nearby stars. Once you go into details on mass, rotations, closeness and all that the analogy fails, because it's "similar to, so we can better envision it" not "the same as".

# ¿ Feb 23, 2012 01:13

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Fuzzy Mammal posted:

New interview with SE on Tor.com. Some very interesting stuff:

Less philosophizing that people love to harp on, perhaps?

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2012/03/st...+and+Stories%29

It's going to be written in first person, from the perspective of a single mote of dust, floating around Kharkanas, witnessing what winds will.

# ¿ Mar 9, 2012 21:07

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Fuzzy Mammal posted:

Yeah that part pissed me off. Books are long? Large list of characters? Labeled as Fantasy? Fiction? Well of course they'll appeal to the same fans!

They kind of do?

Compare the two fan bases and you'll find more fans in common than people who have read both and dislike one or the other.

# ¿ Mar 17, 2012 13:53

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Abalieno posted:

My review of Midnight Tides: http://loopingworld.com/2012/03/25/midnight-tides-steven-erikson/

Explaining the few things I didn't like about the writing.

Why not tell us here rather than pimping your blog?

# ¿ Mar 26, 2012 08:18

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Hondo82 posted:

Concerning Traveller, no. He is not that guy. He's this other guy. What guy you ask? A human guy. Maybe you could guess. He's someone you've heard of by then. Re-reading it may yield clues but I'd avoid looking for spoilers anywhere as you'd probably get too many.

It's been awhile but they dont say who he is explicitly until Ian. C. Esselmont's Return of the Crimson Guard.

Don't they make it explicit who he is in Toll the Hounds? If not it's pretty much an open secret at that point anyway.

And Toll the Hounds is before Crimson Guard isn't it?

# ¿ Apr 1, 2012 22:26

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Yeah I read books. posted:

Alright, I'm towards the end of Memories of Ice and put it down for a moment to pose a question that someone can hopefully answer without spoiling too much:

I'm at the part where Paran and Dujek and Quick are all at Coral, and there's a condor that Quick has Paran draw a card of, then hits it, fight ensues, etc.

My question is: Is Quick Ben basically just Deus Ex Machina personified in this series? He always seems to know exactly what to do at the right time, every time.

Granted I'm not very far into the series, but I have a feeling he's going to remain just as mysterious throughout.

I guess in a way you could call him a Deus Ex Marine-a!

But yeah, the mystery is never fully solved. Not in the main series anyway. If anything he becomes more perplexing. That said, given the setting he isn't ridiculous.

# ¿ May 9, 2012 08:23

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Lyer posted:

This is my personal take on it, but if you think about it for a bit, Fiddler is the main character of the series. I think Erikson throws you for a loop with Paran being the master of the deck and all, but Paran really doesn't do poo poo the entire series. The earlier books basically setup how awesome the Bridgeburners were and that's Fiddler's backstory, then you get Fiddler helping to lay the foundations of what the Bonehunters will be, etc etc. Then you basically have Fiddler as the last line of defense for TCG when they're holding off the hordes when they're freeing him.

That or Erikson had some really lucky dice rolls for that character during his RPing campaigns and he somehow made it through it all.

He was also in the opening and closing scene, which is something of a must for the main protagonist. I mean we all thought that either Paran or Whiskeyjack was "the main guy" based on the opening scene to the series, but Fiddler was there too. He was one of four speaking roles I believe, along with Ganoes Paran, Whiskeyjack and Laseen.

# ¿ May 9, 2012 08:34

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Illuyankas posted:

Oh god the stuff being revealed about Forge of Darkness is turning everything I knew about the series upside down. I'm actually really reluctant to mention them here in case someone hovers over the wrong thing.

At least link us to these reveals so we can spoil ourselves?

# ¿ Jul 18, 2012 18:25

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Illuyankas posted:

Here, look out for posts a few pages in by pat5150 and Malaclypse in particular not all of which are spoiler boxed.

Woah.

I've gone from "I better read these, might find out a little more about Quick Ben given what he said to Mother Dark at the start of The Crippled God, but I'm not sold on the story. Give me Karsa damnit!" to "Will suck dick for preview copy!"

# ¿ Jul 18, 2012 20:57

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Dresden, however, makes an excellent palate cleanser and comedown read after a Malazan book. When re-reading I tend to go Malaz/Dresden/Malaz/Dresden, while Abercrombie can be read one after the other.

I'm not saying he's better or worse because of it, it's just Dresden is lighter than average, and Erikson really leaves you needing a lighter comedown.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2012 20:55

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Loving Life Partner posted:

Wait, by last did you mean first? Or do you want a summary of how the series ends?

Series resolution spoilers:
The Bone Hunter army liberates Letheras and after tipping their cap, starts a suicidal march over a desert that nobody can cross. People think it's the death site of a God, but the God is still alive but just an insane d'ivers that manifests as an army of carnivorous locusts. Letheras sends some important witnesses (Brys Beddict) to meet up with them at the final battle site, which is a fortress where a cabal of forkrul assail are attempting to use the heart of the crippled God to destroy the world.

Basically, the heart is causing a convergence to end all convergences, with only the Malazan army having noble goals.

Stormy and Gesler reach the heart site with their army of K'Chain Che'malle. Onos T'oolan, bent on revenge, leads the most pissed off group of T'lan Imass ever, Torrent dies after killing Olar Ethil on her journey to claim the heart following in Onos' wake. The Ribby Snake joins up with the Bonehunters on their march. Badalle uses the power of her voice to call down the insane god to eat a pureblood assail.

Rake's raven's sacrifice themselves to create a vessel for the heart, the heart is saved by Storm and Gesler, who die, it's delivered to the vessel making TCG whole again, but still powerlessly chained to Burn, the otataral dragon arrives, and its nullification powers wipe out the bonds and free the Crippled God. All the while The Bonehunters and the new Bridgeburners die by the score, but taking dozens for every one they lose

the final play in this ridiculously complex web is Cotillions' part to play, he appears and swiftly assassinates the alien crippled god to free him from his vessel, another kind of bond, and to let him go back to his home planet, to prevent the jade statues full of pissed off worshippers from destroying everything

it's so good, its fantastic, i'm getting emotional right now just retelling a portion of the events, go read it, read the whole damned series. and I DIDN'T EVEN GET INTO THE EVENTS AT THE SHORE HOLY HELL, YEDAN DERRYG

You forgot two huge things in the conclusion.

Do not read this is you haven't finished The Crippled God, or have no intention of reading it.
Whiskeyjack and Korlat's reunion on the hill and Toc being accepted into the bridgeburners. There was also the Cutter/Sorry reunion but to be honest Cutter sucks. Sorry could do so much better than him.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2012 23:37

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Of course, I think you are asking what happened in the first 9 books, not what happens in the last one.

In which case, whelp. That'd be a pretty huge post. I'm not sure I'm the man to tackle that!

# ¿ Jul 29, 2012 23:39

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Grimwall posted:

This is true. That's why I am pretty hopeless about it. I was so amped up about it too! Starting crippled god basically was basically who the gently caress was that weirdly named character that sounds like another character oh god.

Oh I know who's who. I'm just a bit daunted at getting it all down in one post without missing huge chunks or getting things slightly out of sync.

I might try giving it a shot tonight. No promises though, and if i do it, it'd better be put in the OP.

# ¿ Jul 30, 2012 09:16

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Oh Snapple! posted:

Chapter two of Forge of Darkness was posted on TOR's site.

Enjoyed this one. The end actually got an "oh poo poo" out of me

Reading chapter 2 myself right now...

In the actual book*. Staggered releases are really dumb.

*Well, kindle e-book but still.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2012 18:33

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Woah.

Just got to the end of chapter 2 and had to put my kindle down and come here.

That was... unexpected.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2012 19:18

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Yeah I read books. posted:

Is this something I should wait to read until I'm done with the actual series? Or can I read the first two chapters posted online if I'm only up to end of Reaper's Gale/beginning of Toll The Hounds?

Wait for a second opinion, but I don't think there are any spoilers from later in the series there.

It's more that you won't understand the significance of certain people unless you've read the main series.

That said, just wait until you are done, honestly. Finish reading Toll the Hounds instead. It's worth it.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2012 23:02

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

IncendiaC posted:

Definitely finish Toll the Hounds before reading it. TtH has quite a bit of Tiste Andii lore that you don't want to miss. And considering Forge of Darkness is all about the Tiste Andii...

For the record, I'm more stating that he could read the first two chapters that are online if he absolutely had to. They are prequels so don't reference anything that happens during or after Toll the Hounds.

The book as a whole? Definitely finish the series first.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2012 23:26

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Fuzzy Mammal posted:

It will also be over a year before the trilogy is finished and you wouldn't want to wait that long before diving in to the main series.

We should update that image with the newest books. I'm getting the necromancer novella number 5 next week!

It'll be at least two years won't it?

I'd imagine best case scenario is Book 2 in summer 2013 and book 3 in summer 2014.

Worst (Erikson) case is probably Book 2 in winter 2013 and book 3 in summer 2015. He's pretty likely to finish this trilogy before Martin's done too.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2012 02:24

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

zokie posted:

So Forge of Darkness preview and The Crippled God spoilers Anomander was described as having golden skin, it seems that all the Tiste were Liosan first? We also learn that Anomander and his brothers are not blood-children to Mother Dark but rather being a Son of Darkness is a title.

The leader of the Legions was Ossercs father and "transparant" so we are going to see a civil war between the Tiste with the army being led by someone which will call himself Father Light. This makes some sense with what happens in TCG, the Liosan are not invading but rather returning home. I wonder what makes Anomanders faction dark, and why Silchas Ruin stays pale...

It seems to me that Mother Dark is at first a title and later she ascends to godhood, and in the first two chapters it's unclear if anyone knows who Draconus really is...

I'm so loving excited for that book!

Half way through the book and without spoiling much you don't already know, forget liosan or andii. They are simply tiste. The tiste are a people the same way the jaghut or imass are. Andii, Liosan and Edur come later, and seem to be more magical changes imposed on them, Just as imass became t'lan imass. Well, not the same or even similar really but the same principal of taking people and changing them.

As for your guesses on father light, mother dark and draconus you are pretty close.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2012 12:07

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Is anyone else reading the book at the moment, or just me? I'll be upset if I can't talk to anyone about it for months because of US release dates.

That said, (60% or so through)Gripp is being set up as a Whiskeyjack prototype right? What with that dodgy leg he won't let the healer look at?

# ¿ Aug 4, 2012 17:09

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

HeroOfTheRevolution posted:

I did the Kindle UK workaround and started reading last night.

One thing struck me (speculation, fine to read if you've read the first preview chapter). Arathan, the bastard son of Draconus and half-sister to Spite, Envy, and Malice, off-handedly mentions being the downfall of Draconus. There's a mysterious character in BotF who is referred to as 'Elder' by T'lan Imass and harbors a particular hatred for Draconus. Does Arathan become Ruthan Gudd, Captain of the Bonehunters?

It's possible I guess. He'll be someone. That much I'm sure of. Personally I was expecting him to be part of Quick Ben due to the fact that he's son of Draconus and QB talks to "mother" dark mentioning "father" who seems to be Draconus. I also wouldn't be surprised if we find out MD pre godhood was his mother.

Book one really sets things in motion though. Now I'm done I can't wait for book 2. No one actually believes his wanting to slow down somewhat claims do they? :-(

# ¿ Aug 5, 2012 11:38

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

HeroOfTheRevolution posted:

He also says 'Quick Ben, how much longer can you hide?' later on, implying he knows who QB is.

Or it could mean that he sees a hint in there, and knows an azathanai is lurking inside, but can't quite grasp who.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2012 02:47

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

02-6611-0142-1 posted:

It needs the quote to go with it.

Indeed it does.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2012 07:23

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

polyfractal posted:

I was curious about that too. She is also a maybhe, which is similar to how Quick Ben can hold a bunch of soulshifted souls. That said, transforming from a woman to a man seems a bit odd. My personal theory is that Quick Ben is the son of Korya + Arathan, and somehow inherited Korya's ability to hold souls.

Remember there's a chance that He's both of them. His body isn't that old, and is a seven cities native. But the pair of them may have transferred their souls into him.

# ¿ Oct 11, 2012 07:31

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Cardiac posted:

Shouldn't that be quite unlikely, FOD is at least a couple of thousand years (if not more) before what happens in the BOF. In GotM there is also a Rhivi woman that is a mahybe, which in all likelyhood is not related to Quick Ben.

Pretty much everyone else in the book is still around, so why? We know that quickben has some very old souls in him. And calls mother dark " mother" and draconus "father" at one point.

# ¿ Oct 11, 2012 09:29

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Cardiac posted:

Sure, the souls in him might be old, but weren't they wizards from the Seven Cities that Quick Ben enticed to join him during the Bridgeburner pursuit. Of course, they might be old enough to have known Mother Dark and Draconus.
Quick Ben is always described as coming from the Seven Cities, which is in a world separate from Kharkhanas. Also, if Quick Ben was around then, he would probably be an ascendant by now and they typically don't go unnoticed.

In which book does he call mother dark mother, and vice versa for Draconus?

Should be spoilers! We have people new to the series read the posts too.

And while you are right, we know that at least one of those mages was a Jaghut, and one (possibly a different one) knew very old magic relating to soul shifting. Ben himself was a relatively modern mage from Seven Cities, with a sister in the cult of Poliel, who rose high in the cult of Rashan. He was top tier power-wise already, without the other 11 souls. Either him or one of the other 11 (i'd guess one of the other 11) was a former Malazan High Mage, as was Nightchill / Sister of Cold Nights, who was herself one of the Azathani, kin (and a close ally at one point it seems, along with K'rul) to Draconus. So while they were "seven city mages" at the time of the soul shifting into Quick Ben, who they were before trhat is up in the air. At least one of them is likely to be a contemporary to the Forge of Darkness books, if not an actual character. I'd personally be shocked if at least one of the pair isn't inside him.

And the answer to the last question is "The Crippled God".

# ¿ Oct 11, 2012 11:00

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Cardiac posted:

There was also the time he scared of the Tiste Edur from the Perish fleet by a huge illusion of some horrible sorcery, and afterwards he confirmed he was spent. There is also a situation in Memories of Ice (?) where he faces of against Bauchelain and Korbal Broach and uses 6 warrens on them each, emptying him. There are also multiple scenarios where he gets swept away by sorcery which shouldn't really happen if he was that powerful. For instance, the fight against the short-tails .

Anyway, I like Quick Ben, but I think he's more of a smart opportunist than a full-blown ascendant. By being able to manipulate his way he doesn't need that much raw power.

Unless I'm mistaken we only have his word that it was an illusion, and that claim was only made when he was asked how he managed it? I could have misremembered that though.

# ¿ Oct 20, 2012 07:58

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

IncendiaC posted:

IMO, there's no way Dassem would be able to carry Dragnipur. The weight of all the souls takes massive inner strength, and Dassem's pretty broken emotionally.

I couldn't disagree stronger.

We're talking about the Lord of Tears, God of Tragedy here. If he had wanted the sword, he could have carried the weight. In fact, it would have added to him. Deepened the tragedy around him.

Could a room be too dark for Mother Dark? Would Mael struggle to live in a house at the bottom of the ocean, given the lack of air and the intense pressure?

Remember, the crippled god seems to thrive on pain and suffering. Equally, Dassem's very essence is tragedy.

# ¿ Nov 1, 2012 09:08

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

zzttaozia posted:

Yeah, same boat. Just finished Toll the Hounds and can really feel the series coming to an end; it's taking all my willpower to not highlight the spoilers. Hope Dust and TCG don't disappoint.

One question about Toll the Hounds, and I really feel like it's a stupid one but still, why does Traveller/ Dassem Ultor want to kill Hood? Have I missed something in a previous book?

Dassem was Hood's Knight at one point. So a pretty big player in his house. Then (I believe at the recentest chaining of the crippled god?) Hood pretty much betrayed Dassem (although I'm sure there were good reasons) by somehow using his daughter. The details are very sketchy, but basically we have a chaining, Hood taking Dassem's daughter, and Dassem taking her dead body into an Azath House. That was pretty much when he stopped being Knight of Death and became Lord of Tragedy, a god in his own right.

# ¿ Nov 18, 2012 02:24

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

bigmcgaffney posted:

I have the hardcover sitting on my nightstand, so I hope theres more than Tiste ennui and aforementioned introspection in there.

I'd buy one of each maybe. Like Forge and The Heroes. OST is weak, and I heard Red Country isn't as good as earlier works.

On one hand, I liked Red Country. I thought it was just as good as any other Abercrombie book.

That said, the one of each route is the only way to go. Forge of Darkness is an absolute must read.

So yeah, grab The Heroes and Forge of Darkness. Next time you have some spare cash you then have two series to finish!

# ¿ Dec 13, 2012 10:33

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# ¿ May 14, 2024 10:37

Masonity: Dec 31, 2007; What, I wonder, does this hidden face of madness reveal of the makers? These K'Chain Che'Malle?

Cardiac posted:

In the choice between Esslemont and Erikson, the answer is always Erikson.
FoD is the background story for the Tiste Andi, whereas Esslemont describes what happens in the rest of world and is relatively separate from the BotF

FoD is far more than the tiste backstory. It also goes into the Jaghut backstory and introduces the mysterious Azathi race.

It's also one of Erikson's best books so far. It isn't structured the same way the others are, and freed from the constraints of the formulaic build up to convergence late in the book he really manages to set things up for the rest of the new trilogy.

# ¿ Dec 15, 2012 15:14

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > The Malazan Book of the Fallen: Too many wor'ds.

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