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bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

Saltin posted:

Instead people want to talk about cigarettes and it's sort of silly.

That's not fair. People recommended Tuyop spend less on groceries as a strategy to save money, which he rebuked because he values his physical fitness and sees his eating habits as a chief contributor to that. People then recommended that he quit smoking because continuing the habit is directly opposed to that goal, which he also rebuked because he eats well-enough to justify it, or something. That whole argument is totally circular, and since he asked BFC for help in figuring out how to escape his bad financial decision-making, they rightly pointed out that this is a prime example. To us, it sounds like he's spending $50 a month on prostitutes and another $50 a month of syphilis treatments. Everyone can have their vices, but not everyone can both have their vices and stay debt-free.

If he wants to dig in on this issue, that's totally fine. But I think the mentality that we should look at his sincere desire to keep things the way they are and shrug it off, or subtly appeal to his emotional inclinations rather than offer frank advice is counterproductive. This isn't a thread about justifying unsustainable spending habits in the face of debt. If Tuyop wants to keep smoking and overspending on food, he's allowed to. He's a grown-up who can make choices for himself. However, BFC is here to tell him that a) we disagree with that decision, and more importantly b) if he does make that choice, then he ought to reduce his spending elsewhere to accommodate it.

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bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

:siren: August update :siren:

Net income: 1554
This is the best month I've had since last September when I got like 6k of back pay all at once.

Debt paid: 1229

Still don't know how to make a graph. :(

If there's a library nearby, ask if they offer or know about free computer courses in office/productivity software. Not only will you learn to make pretty graphs to help you visualize your finances, but you'll gain marketable skills for when you're not serving. Plus, free books yo.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

And what's wrong with a 10% revolving out-of-budget fund? Should I just be able to predict every single expense I might incur?

It seems like the path you've taken to setting your budget is bottom-up; deciding how much you need to/want to spend on each category, then throwing whatever is leftover each month at either debt or savings. This works well for people who don't have a lot of unexpected expenses, or impulse control issues, so maybe a top-down approach would work better for you?

Set an ideal savings target, and an ideal debt payment target for each month. This doesn't mean pick arbitrarily. Run the numbers, and figure out how much you need to put into your savings account each month so you'll have exactly the right amount of cash on hand when expenses like trips to Montreal and new boots come due. Same goes for your debts. Want to pay off your laptop by the end of December and reduce your total debt by 10% by February? Plan your payments each month to be enough to accomplish that.

Add together your savings and debt targets for each month. Take that amount, and subtract it from your income. The remainder is your budget. Allocate that as you see fit. Cigarettes, gas, protein supplements, entertainment, whatever. If you don't have enough to buy all the things you want, tough poo poo. That's living on a budget. Spend less on food, get a cheaper cell phone plan, get Netflix instead of going to the movies, do what you have to do to get by without tapping into your savings, reducing your debt payments, or putting more debt on your credit cards.

Getting rid of your debt is a goal that YOU chose. Pick the year, month, or even day that you want it to be a reality, and start writing checks each month that will accomplish that. If your plan is to just try your best to live meagerly and toss whatever money is left over at your debts, you'll never succeed. Not with your credit card balances and a penchant for "discovering" new expenses each month.

On a side note, you've repeatedly justified dubious expenses as necessary for work. Stop that. If you don't plan to claim it on your taxes, it's not a work expense, so you shouldn't exempt it from your budget.

bam thwok fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Sep 1, 2011

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

And the steps you listed ARE what I did. That's why last month worked. I'm new to budgeting, so I just missed some things. I'll get better at it, it's not like I'm putting no effort in.

If this is what you're doing, it's not at all obvious from the graphs and other updates you give us.

In the OP you posted:

I want some accountability and feedback, so I'm posting a thread about it.

Let's have some accountability then. When (what month) is your laptop going to be paid down at the rate you're going? What about the Mastercard, or any of your other debts? What's your plan here?

Where are the earmarks for each of your savings goals in your spreadsheets?

quote:

I just don't say poo poo like, "Man I hate carpooling to work 20 days in a row. My roommate left his car windows rolled down in the hurricane and I had to sit in a puddle for half an hour." (not martyring myself, just saying that I could have said that to demonstrate that I actively reduced my gas spending)

Congratulations on having the restraint not to say that, I guess?

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

For instance, on the way to Halifax this weekend I picked up a guy through rideshare. He gave me 25 for gas, I put 25 in gas in my car on my debit card, then put the gas money in my bank account. Mint.com builds the graph for this month with +25 income and +25 expenses that wouldn't have happened otherwise. It appears as if I've hit a windfall and spent 25 out of my normal means, but I haven't. I just got 25 for gas and bought 25 in gas. This kind of thing happens to me all the time.

You can track this more accurately by labeling the $25 you were given as a positive gas expense (or whatever it is) rather than income, in Mint.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

She has like 500 in CC debt so she can buy whatever the gently caress she wants.

No. She has like $500 in CC debt so she should pay off her loving credit card debt before buying more poo poo.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

Well let's see. She has 5 weeks in barracks making 2k before she can spend anything at all. So after her huge 500 debt is taken care of that's 1500 that she can spend on more poo poo. I think she'll be ok. She's perfectly capable of living on 300 a week, so when she's making 650, she should be able to live within her means if she's careful. I'm telling her that she should be careful.

Having debt that you can theoretically pay off soon isn't the same as having no debt.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

ToeShoes posted:

tuyop says that he has 600 saved up now, he puts 390 a month into savings right now and 450 is way more than a month's worth of expenses for me (I put in $100 a month), the major things I spend money on are smokes, rent and food and that's all I need. And I've never gone more than three weeks without a job, I'll work anywhere. Tuyop's job is really secure too.

He also told us that the money he's put into savings is for budgeted expenses, not an emergency fund.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

I also have 60k in debt. If need be I can use that savings in an ambiguous emergency. I'm not going to have money laying around for the sake of it at least until my credit cards are payed off. (may 2012)

It sounds like you're saying you can't afford to have an emergency fund because of your debt. I'd counter that you can't afford not to have an emergency fund, given your debt. An emergency fund is there to prevent you from relying on lines of credit when poo poo hits the fan, as insurance to keep your debt from rising.

It's not the same, and shouldn't be thought of in the same way, as a slush fund for upcoming minor expenses or long-term savings for things like a down payment on a house.

Edit:

I also want to make it crystal clear that having a sufficient emergency fund isn't just about earning a merit badge for good financial planning, it's incredibly practical for someone with a significant amount of credit card debt. If you spend long enough with a large balance on your card, there's a serious risk of that card being shut off by the issuer when you finally pay it off in full. If you don't have a large chunk of otherwise untouched cash laying around, you could end up hosed six ways to Sunday if your car shits the bed or you get injured and can't work.

I think most financial planners would recommend you pay only the minimums on your debts until you've amassed a sufficient emergency fund, but others I'm sure will disagree.

bam thwok fucked around with this message at 17:11 on Sep 20, 2011

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

ToeShoes posted:

Is this right? Tuyop said he was 34 000 in debt on the first page, I might have missed something.

That's what he considers his net worth, which includes the value of his car and other assets. If he were to sell that car and all of his valuable possessions at a price of $21,900 today and use all of the proceeds to pay off debt, then he'd be $34,000 in debt. As of the time the OP was posted he's nearly $57,000 in debt (more than a full year's gross income, before deductions), 25% of which is on high interest credit cards.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

I am not having children and neither is toeshoes. Like I said before, unless someone can give me an example given my situation of why I might suddenly need more than 1000 bucks in cash all of a sudden, I'm not taking time away from debt payment for it.

Your rent could unexpectedly rise, the interest rate on your debts could increase, there could be a death in the family and you have to buy plane tickets to attend the funeral (or you could responsible for the funeral arrangements), you could spill a glass of protein shakes on your laptop, your electric bill could be enormous due to an error that isn't fixed for months, a gas leak may force you to stay in a hotel for a week and you won't be reimbursed for months, you could lose your boots and have to buy a new pair, you could accidentally underpay on your taxes, you could get a speeding ticket or other expensive traffic citation, your tires could unexpectedly blowout, or a creditor could offer to settle one of your debts in exchange for a sizable immediate payment and you'd be able to take advantage of it.

Honestly, there's a thousand reasons to plan for emergencies, and I'm not going to patronize you by listing any more of them. As much as you've devoted yourself to being a maverick in this thread and coming up with excuses for why advice that works for everyone else couldn't possibly work for you, having at least a modest rainy day fund is a universally recognized pre-requisite for financial stability, consistently outranking debt repayment as a priority for getting your house in order.

Even if you can't fathom the possibility of needing emergency cash at some time in the next few years (which would set a new world record for obstinacy), it's still worth it, even if it means you don't finish your debt repayment until a few months later than you'd planned. It will be the first time you've managed to build up a chunk of savings and not recklessly blown it on a vacation or whatever, and you'll be able to stop adding to your debt. You'll feel great about it and have finally picked up at least one positive habit with your money.

Not having an emergency fund is a classic and all-to-common reason why people have trouble escaping debt. Nothing ever goes exactly according to plan. And when your plan for getting out of debt is going to last for many months if not longer, it's practically inevitable that something lovely will happen that could jeopardize all of the hassle, obsessing, compromises, and annoyances you've dealt with since deciding you wanted out.

bam thwok fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Sep 20, 2011

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned
^^^^ read this carefully. Having an emergency fund doesn't mean having the ability to raid cash savings that you were planning on using to pay for things.

tuyop posted:

Well I have 600 floating in my checking account as a buffer. The way i built my budget it grows by 100-300 a month depending on how different budgets go. I'm pretty comfortable with that for now. It's no 10k rainy day thing, but it sounds like that's what you guys meant.

You'd be better off with a separate account for your emergency fund that is inviolate, rather than lumped in with the same buffer cash that keeps you from overdrafting.

bam thwok fucked around with this message at 23:35 on Sep 20, 2011

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

Sounds like another person who's never done basic or anything like it before. :downs:

Sounds to me like a person who isn't 60k in debt either.

It seems like every time someone tries to help by pointing out your lovely past, present, and future decisions, you insist you've got everything under control or wave your dick all over the place until they go away. What exactly is it that you want from this thread? Was this all just a sly ruse to get your girlfriend to tell the internet you've got a huge package?

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

asmallrabbit posted:

The trend that I'm seeing over and over again is how you say the military covers everything Tuyop. You don't need to worry about this or that or the other thing because it's covered, it's never happened before, etc. So what happens if/when something changes and maybe all of a sudden that stuff isn't covered anymore? You are going to be up poo poo creek if you haven't made any sort of emergency savings because you figured it could never happen or it wouldn't be an issue. People that get into accidents, get robbed, medical emergencies etc probably always think it could never happen to them either. Then maybe you find out that the military won't cover as much as you thought it was going too, or maybe only for a certain amount of time, the rest you have to cover yourself, and you don't have any money set aside for it because you figured it could never happen.

I pretty much said this at the tail end of the previous page, but it certainly bears repeating. Every step of the way here you've insisted that you have everything under control because of x, or that something else couldn't possibly be a problem for you because of y. You don't. You can't predict the future, and instead of planning for worst case scenarios you're barreling full-speed ahead towards a disaster.

You're not immune from needing an emergency fund because you're not immune from moving cross-country being more expensive than you thought, you're not immune from your income being lower than you expect, you're not immune from the price of gas going up, and you're not immune from disaster. Neither the army nor your girlfriend will save you from financial ruin; only you can.

In the immortal words of Charlie Sheen, "Plan better". I mean, did you even read the Newbie Personal Finance Thread? In the FAQ, step one for paying off your debt is getting an emergency fund set up.

bam thwok fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Sep 22, 2011

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

So what? Should I take this advice and stop paying off debt except for minimum payments just in case? That will take me six months to a year for a 6-9 month expense e-fund.

The other problem is that the math is ridiculous. Every dollar I make right now is not mine. Every dollar I spend on something other than cc payment costs me a corresponding amount of interest. Therefore saving a 15k savings account still costs me the same percent as I would have saved on interest payments. I don't understand why it's at all desirable to have a 15k savings account instead of 15k less debt now available as liquid credit. I get that the credit can be canceled at any time, but that's not a very significant risk compared to the potential cost of not paying off the debt.

Saving for a year and then using my savings on some incredible emergency and starting from square one (0 savings and 0 repaid debt). Is the same as spending all on debt then using it on a similar emergency a year later (0 savings and 0 repaid debt). So why the big fuss about the emergency fund?

Ok, so the issue isn't that you don't understand why the emergency fund is important, it's that you don't see the functional difference between having your savings get wiped out or your debt retracting in the event of an emergency.

I get that. Mathematically you're right that they aren't very different save for the negligible (or non-negligible) amount of interest you'll incur by lowering your debt service each month to build up the fund. Can you just trust us here that having liquid cash savings is inherently less risky than presumed access to credit, and that your tunnel-vision on debt repayment at the expense of cash savings puts you in financial danger that you're not fully appreciating?

Edit:

I just want to make sure you understand the risk that I'm referring to. Lines of credit and cash savings both function well and pretty much identically in case of emergency, and financially responsible people should cultivate sources of both. But there's a dilemma inherent to that, and you've certainly pointed it out in part; relying too heavily on cash means you're wasting an opportunity to put that money to good use, like paying bills or buying poo poo you like, and that comes with a non-abstract cost. But if you rely solely on credit instead, you're vulnerable to problems over which you have no say, like the credit card company unilaterally raising rates or lowering your limit as the balance falls. In either of those two events, you'd be forced to liquidate assets, raid other savings, or beg your friends for money to stay afloat in an emergency, and that's not what you want.

bam thwok fucked around with this message at 19:28 on Sep 22, 2011

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

Right now the situation is:

1300 in debt payment. 45% of my income
240 for earmarked future expenses. 8%
50 for long-term/emergency savings. 2%
100 to add to the 1000 chequing buffer. 4%

At that rate I will meet my debt goals laid out several pages ago. How would you recommend that I change it? And is 2-3k the recommended e-fund I should have given my expenses (see: OP)?


There's a lot of different rules of thumb out there, but generally the goal should be an emergency fund with 3-9 months expenses including minimum debt payments. The actual number depends a lot on your risk tolerance, and most of those rules are heavily influenced by the presumption that the most likely use of the funds would be in the event of unemployment, so take it with a grain of salt. 2-3k is a solid start, so the only question you face is how quickly you want to get there, and how that pace will affect your debt repayment schedule.

If you knocked off 5% on debt repayment each month and plugged that into your long-term/emergency savings, how long would it take to build the fund, and by how long would that delay your debt repayment? Also, if your spending outside of the four categories you listed is higher than usual, which of them would you adjust?

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

michael30404 posted:

That emergency fund is looking lots more relevent huh?

"Business, Finance, and Careers: Hate to say I told you so(no I don't)"

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

I'm kind of feeling like using that account for emergency fund as well since the fluidity is the same and the only difference is that I'd have to go to the TD app on my phone and transfer it back to chequing before I use it rather than just using the Savings button on a POS machine.

Balance transfers don't happen on weekends, holidays, and random days for plenty of other reasons. Your emergency fund should be immediately available (or darn close to immediately available) in case of, you know, an emergency.

quote:

I figure it's worth the 5 bucks a month that I'll be making in interest.

What the hell? $5 a month? That's at least $60 per year, not accounting for compounding. That's at least 17% per annum. There's no way your TFSA is earning you that much in interest on a principal of only $335. Are you sure you didn't see a yearly rate of like 1.5% APY compounded monthly and assumed that meant you'd be be getting $60 a year just for parking your cash there? Use your head, man.

edit; I actually just checked TD Canada's website to see for myself, since I would become a citizen in a heartbeat if the savings rates were that high (maxing out a TFSA every year at that rate would let me retire about 20 years early).

code:
Tax-Free Savings Account
High Interest TFSA Savings Account

Account Balance	Interest Rate
$0        to $999.99	1.15%
$1,000    to $4,999.99	1.15%
$5,000    to $9,999.99	1.15%
$10,000   to $24,999.99	1.15%
$25,000   to $59,999.99	1.15%
$60,000 and over	1.15%

Interest is payable monthly at the rates per annum, as offered. 
Interest for each tier is paid on your total daily closing balance.
This account will earn you $3.87 this year. Enjoy.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

pay stuff

So for at least three years you've known that getting your salary on time and in full can be a sporadic clusterfuck of a bureaucratic nightmare, but did nothing to plan for that possibility?

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

Well nevermind. I fell down with a radio and machine gun and tore the connective tissue between my spine and ribs. Now I'm off course and out of the infantry. I'll post an update for October in the next few days.

This means a big career change for me and definite salary consequences in the future. gently caress my life.

Holy poo poo, are you okay?

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

Career wise: this means that any promotions or raises have been postponed at least until I'm better, probably six months, and I have to switch trades. I dont know anything about the promotion rates in other trades but the infantry is one of the fastest so I have no idea now. Ive had a claim into veterans affairs for my last injury for 9 months or so now, but those take a long time to settle so I have no idea when or if I'll see any money from this injury. I'm not going to be kicked out of the military and I won't take a salary hit for any reason other than voluntarily decommissioning.

What does this mean, if anything, for your bottom line right now? I understand that your expected promotion track is in jeopardy (another friendly reminder to stop counting your chickens before they hatch), but what does your week-to-week look like now that field pay is seemingly out of the equation?

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

And now I have to hear the emergency fund taunts AGAIN.

Goons may come off as smarmy or overbearing (I KNOW I've been unintentionally guilty of that in this thread), but they're never meant to taunt; more to plead. We love talking about the finer points of retirement savings vehicles, but how to shop for carrots so you don't overdraft? Not so much. And there's a few well-trodden steps for getting to that point.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

Maybe I used the wrong financial prowords or something, but this can be liquidated within 24 hours.

The market can lose 20% in 24 hours and stay that way for weeks or months at a time. If you're comfortable with your emergency fund being worth less than you put into it some point, then by all means keep it there. My opinion is that you should build your emergency fund through contributions alone, and not view it as a source of growth/return, which is what mutual funds are designed for.

quote:

Savings are good to constantly build right?

Yes, for two reasons. The first is that by making your savings regular you'll learn to see it as a fact of life rather than a luxury, and plan the rest of your finances accordingly. The second reason has to do with the long term success of your investment strategy. If you invest $100 every two weeks, sometimes you'll be buying shares of your chosen mutual fund when they are expensive, and sometimes you'll be buying shares of your chosen mutual fund when they are cheap. This way you don't have to worry about timing the market at all, which is the right strategy for a hands-off investor.

quote:

I can move the money around whenever I want apparently.

Sounds like you can move the money around at the end of the business day. So even if you have a disaster in the morning that requires money that very instant, you have to wait for your TFSA provider to sell your shares and then transfer the money to an account from which you can write a check. Either that or put it on a credit card and then end up exactly where you started months ago.

Not to mention that you may have chosen to invest a mutual fund that charges you a fee when you sell it. But we won't know til you tell us which one that is.

bam thwok fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Feb 19, 2012

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

Alright, so I've bought 22 units(?) of TD Canadian Equity.

The TD Canadian Equity fund has an expense ratio of 2.13%, and a total cost of 2.62%. That is the pretty much worst I've ever seen. It apparently also has a 1% commission fee for the people who sold it to you. Definitively the worst I've ever seen.

quote:

It looks like there's no fee to move my money tomorrow if I really should.

Wrong.

The fund's prospectus says "Short-term trading fee: up to 2% of the purchase cost of the units if you redeem within 30 days of purchase. This fee goes to the fund. Switch fee: your investment firm may charge you up to 2% of the value of units you switch to another TD Mutual Fund."

quote:

it's not like it's hugely risky to me

Nope, it's one of the most volatile funds they have. Eclipsed in risk only by the precious metal fund.

quote:

You can't lose!

You can, and will.

I'm really not sure why you did this at all. With the amount you're investing, there aren't going to be any miracles. $600 isn't suddenly going to become $6,000 because you let TD handle it. Meanwhile you still don't have a proper emergency fund, which you seem to need all the time.

edit; ugggh

bam thwok fucked around with this message at 16:26 on Feb 23, 2012

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

DuckConference posted:

You seem to be unfamiliar with the canadian mutual fund industry, "gently caress you" pricing is pretty much the standard and those fees are lower than many.

Good god. With prices like that, why do Canadians invest in anything but maple syrup futures and extra vowels?

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

Shooting Blanks posted:

Something to consider, tuyop, is that everyone out there has ideas about what will happen in the future when it comes to investing. I agree with Leperflesh on his ideas of investor mindset (and it is a massive oversimplification), but I personally wouldn't want to be short precious metals over a 5 year time horizon (or even a 10 year horizon) for anything - in my opinion, there's too much emotion in metals right now, they are not and have not behaved rationally for quite awhile, and there's still too much turmoil to make that bet.

That's just an example, but in the long run, you are best off educating yourself on how to read financial statements and understanding what will or won't make a stock increase in value, and doing the research to pick stocks you like. Or just buy index funds.

Tuyop doesn't have enough capital to fund the diversity needed to invest in individual stocks.

The more we turn this into an discussion about investment strategy, the more we're inviting people to intellectualize in a way that someone (like Tuyop) might mistake for actual advice.

Tuyop needs to starts seriously figuring out his long term plans while diligently saving and paying down debt with the income he's got now. He doesn't need to learn about current ratios and P/E multiples and start trying to time the stock market.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

blah_blah posted:

Reading your posts is strange, because you clearly have done some minimal amount of reading on finance (mutual funds are bad, stocks are broadly random and top performers are generally a product of randomness rather than underlying skill), but then you spout drivel about 'downward corrections' and 'buy low sell high' which shows that you really don't understand anything at all...

I found it pretty astute. When a smart investor sees an asset beating the poo poo out of the market, he should take his money and run since he knows that there is no such thing as long-run above market returns. And "Buy low sell high" is the only way (aside from dividends) to make money on an investment, unless I've missed something?

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

blau_blah posted:

Leaving aside for a second the fact that this is obviously false (see e.g. Berkshire Hathaway or Renaissance Technologies), the idea that there is an active force causing excellent performing products over some time interval to underperform the market mean over the next time interval of the same length (i.e., a downward correction) is just absurd.

It's not absurd; I do believe that there is an active force that puts downward pressure on high performers, and it's called corporate complacency versus competition in free markets. High performers attract imitators and innovators that steal their milkshake if they're not paying attention. See Dell 2000 versus Dell 2012. Anyone who bought Apple at $540 a share (which values an electronics company as more valuable than all of Poland) under the assumption that no one can possibly out-innovate them is going to feel pretty sore one of these days.

But let me clarify what I said before; a smart investor knows that he cannot tell in advance, by past returns alone, which assets will continue to perform well and which will crash and burn, so investing in an asset which has seen a price boost from runaway optimism (whether that optimism is founded or unfounded) is not a savvy decision. edit: today's Wall Street Journal has a nice article on this.

quote:

While markets are certainly not as efficient as theory of finance textbooks would like to pretend, you and leperflesh are arguing that markets are noticeably inefficient in a very simple way, which brings up the obvious question of why you and he (and presumably all the other people smart enough to notice this 'phenomenon') are not multimillionaires from shorting successful companies.

It's ironic that you brought up Berkshire Hathaway, since Warren Buffet's own investing philosophy is the exact opposite of what you're arguing. He has said many times that the vagaries of market fluctuations are a value investors' bread and butter. Market optimism is the enemy since it makes the things you want to buy more expensive, and market pessimism is your best friend since it makes the things you want to buy cheaper.

You can try to cloud the issue by smashing everything with your efficient market hypothesis hammer, but the fact remains that no investor has seen a return on his investment without an appreciation in its value and without realizing that value through a sale. Even dollar-cost averaging strategies that all but ignore the timing dilemma are predicated on this axiom, seeking to ensure that the average price at which you invest will be lower than the spot price when you're ready to sell. Feigning inferiority to the wisdom of the market doesn't magically generate profit. Selling something for more than you paid for it does.

In any event, feel free to pick this up over to the Stock Picking or Long-term Investment thread if you want to keep arguing, since this is a thread about yelling at Tuyop.

bam thwok fucked around with this message at 18:45 on Mar 2, 2012

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

Well, thanks. You have many good reasons to move the money out of a mutual fund. I'll do that.

Stop. Wait. Think.

Find out for certain if there will be any sales charges or fees for cashing out. Check performance so far (the market had a pretty massive correction yesterday). Plan your exit carefully.

While you probably shouldn't have put the money in the mutual fund to begin with, there's no sense in paying an idiot tax to get it out.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:


I'd REALLY rather discuss how I'm going to afford moving like a bunch of stuff to Ontario. I have like 2.5 car loads of things all packed up and ready to go, but it looks like it's going to cost me 500-1400 dollars to somehow either rent an SUV for the trip and stuff my stuff into it (because I only have one car), or a small moving truck or van. I think I'm going to work out some longer-term storage with my parents until I can afford to fix the problem. The other option is to simply light the cheapest poo poo on fire and buy new stuff when I get there. It may actually cost less than moving it.

Are your moving expenses really not getting reimbursed?

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned
I think what's obvious to everyone else but not to you is that there's an order of priorities that supersedes debt repayment. Like shelter.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned
Is your back injury a concern/limitation on what you can sleep on without issue? I'm surprised you've been able to couchsurf this long without it being a serious issue.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

I don't think that I can commute by bike anymore, it's too loving dark and I'm really scared of getting hit by someone because I can't afford to light myself properly.

Toeshoes is also driving to work everyday anyway, and we work in the same place so it makes almost no sense for me to risk the bike ride every day.

I'm sorry that I was wrong, again.

I don't think you need to beat yourself up over this one. More people should bike to commute to work. The only problem here was planning. If you'd taken the time to really consider that you would need lights, reflective gear, etc, when winter rolled around, it may have changed your decision to splurge on the shoes and such.

That's why we've been saying you should post more about the big purchases. It's not so we can poo-poo your dreams and ideas and tell you to shop at thrift stores. It's so that you make thoughtful consideration a habit whenever you plan to spend.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned
Obviously there's issues with planning joint finances that you'll want to read up on (or I'm sure somewhere here has solid advice on), but strictly looking at the spending you've laid out:



Transportation remains the big HOLY poo poo here.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

Yes, I'm more concerned with how my sex life has changed, how I lose hours of sleep a week because of pain (and the medication makes me loving retarded), how I can't pursue the long list of outdoorsy sporting hobbies that I used to, help my friends move or do a lot of chores (gently caress garbage bags forever), things like that.

It's just hard and confusing for me to feel morally alright with it. I can't compare myself to someone who has been blown up and keep a straight face. Like, "boo hoo you can't surf anymore! At least you don't need a pump in your head to circulate your spinal fluid because one of your sinuses was torn out by a piece of shrapnel." It's upsetting.

Spend the next 12 days leading up to the appointment keeping a diary of all these things. I.e. when you experienced them, what you were doing, how bad/debilitating it was, how it affected your job performance/emotional state/quality of life, if you had depressive/anxious/angry thoughts associated with them, etc.

Just give the doctor the facts without downplaying or exaggerating anything, and whatever the army decides will be exactly what the Dominion of Canada believes you are entitled to.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned
Ya'll are overthinking this. Buying laptops isn't a price-to-specs optimization game anymore. They're basically commodities. Assuming you're not going to be using this for anything more complicated than email, web browsing, watching Netflix on bus rides, and writing gay wolf fan-fiction or whatever the gently caress; pick a budget, wait for a sale from one of the major vendors, then buy it.

I'd say don't get roped into buying any kind of extended warranty or service plan, but you are Tuyop. So maybe you're exactly the kind of person they're right for.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

Leperflesh posted:

Isn't his power bill included in his rent?

I mean, it's still good to develop energy-saving habits, but it's not going to affect his budget at all.

Using less electricity is a stand-in for having fewer expensive hobbies or making impulsive purchases that need electricity. It's not just about light switches.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

Nether Postlude posted:

Agreeing with this completely. Looking back at money you spent on a candybar when you were 8 isn't going to give you any deep financial insight. Concentrate on changing the situation you're in now rather than overanalyzing your lifetime financial history. Otherwise, it'll only serve to overwhelm and depress you.

Disagree. Debt is a function of past choices, and any time that Tuyop spends reflecting (not bemoaning)to find patterns that can help him make better choices in the future will be time well spent.

bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

Well we're having a wedding in August that kind of qualifies. I think it'll cost us between 3 and 6k. As the plans get more concrete, I'll be able to nail down an actual number.

Maybe I missed you mentioning this before, but congratulations!

So yeah, start saving for that like mad. It will cost more than you think.

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bam thwok
Sep 20, 2005
I sure hope I don't get banned

tuyop posted:

It's not a net worth graph, it's a debt graph. The savings and value of my car are not included in the big "total" line. The total is just the straight up sum of all my accounts that are negative.

Hope you've got a more complete version of this somewhere that accounts for your full financial picture.

If you want to, throw everything you've got into a google doc and I'd be happy to make something a bit less confusing out of it.

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