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hankor posted:Mark Twain did. Yeah I thought it was hilarious when I read that last year. I still like the language more than English. This should really be in the opening of every Germany thread though because it's awesome.
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Oct 4, 2011 19:17
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dreamin' posted:It is always hilarious to see people rant and rave about how "some cultures" have "incorrect traditions" and how it's their refusal to integrate and the left's blindness about these issues that lead to our current problems. If you enjoy a good laugh you might want to read up on TOPRAK and EL-MAFAALANI who have worked on a study on values of Muslim immigrants and the impact on their life in Germany. http://www.kas.de/wf/doc/kas_28612-544-1-30.pdf?110928101139
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Oct 4, 2011 19:34
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Baronjutter posted:I used to think germany was pretty cool, but it's probably only berlin. Germany is really sounding like the US of europe. It's the biggest economy but it's full of right wing religious folk with awful blame-the-victim racism and a "that's just extreme left propaganda!" to any social or economic development since the 70's. Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmh no.
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Oct 4, 2011 20:16
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Einbauschrank posted:To really compare the school system we would have to compare Finnish pupils in the Finnish system and Finnish pupils in the German system. Or we would have to put German pupils in Finnish schools and see if they fare better. You would also have to equip the German schools with the same amount of money to compare the systems. It doesn't lead anywhere to compare different input and then claim the school is at fault. Finland is less urbanized (and therefore has less of an urban under-class) and had less immigrants with a poor educational background. Finland also spends per capita more money on their schools (but not on their teachers, they earn less than in Germany, but also have less pupils with behavioural problems so that their work is less annoying). To claim the different results are the result of integrated vs. differentiated school system is mainly the result of wanting the school system to be the reason rather than some kind of empirical analysis. I knew American Exceptionalism, but German Exceptionalism is something new. Don't let the fact that I'm railing against the segregation fool you into thinking, that that's my only beef with the system. In fact smaller classes and more money for education would be great.
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Oct 4, 2011 20:49
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Plankalkuel posted:I knew American Exceptionalism, but German Exceptionalism is something new. Don't let the fact that I'm railing against the segregation fool you into thinking, that that's my only beef with the system. In fact smaller classes and more money for education would be great. Never going to happen under the current economic system. I don't know anyone who is against it though.
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Oct 4, 2011 21:05
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Baronjutter posted:I used to think germany was pretty cool, but it's probably only berlin. Germany is really sounding like the US of europe. It's the biggest economy but it's full of right wing religious folk with awful blame-the-victim racism and a "that's just extreme left propaganda!" to any social or economic development since the 70's. Our current head of government is a christian woman with a Phd. in physics, the head of her coalition partner - the foreign minister - is openly gay and married to his partner. Yup, we are exactly like the US, all right wing reactionary christian fundamentalism here.
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Oct 4, 2011 21:19
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Einbauschrank posted:It's no big secret who our worst pupils are and that Finland "lacks" strength in the corresponding group of urbanized and squalid families. Who the gently caress cares about your xenophobic opinions about turks and muslims? Whom you never tire to bad-mouth at any given opportunity. This is a discussion about facts and possible solutions, and it's a fact that our glourious educational system produced embarrasingly horrible results at integrating the influx of immigrants. The continued idiocy of conservatives/semi-fascists with opinions like you has led to this mess we're in. The idiotic conservative economic policies of the past first ruined our economy, then it produced a perpetual underclass of uneducated have-nots by adding insult to injury and trapping them in a school system based on over one hundred years of elitist superstition. In the same way that a once top of the line prussian locomotive is hopelessly obsolete now in the real modern world, that idiotic old system is obsolete and obviously unable to deal with the challenges of the present. DerDestroyer posted:This is exactly the kind of poo poo self hating Germans never want to see or hear and you're going to get accused of being a complete racist and an anti-turk. Tell us more about what you, a canadian/serb living abroad, thinks constitutes true Germanness.
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Oct 4, 2011 21:19
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Plankalkuel posted:I knew American Exceptionalism, but German Exceptionalism is something new. Don't let the fact that I'm railing against the segregation fool you into thinking, that that's my only beef with the system. In fact smaller classes and more money for education would be great. I think "ceteris paribus" is more a matter of widely accepted methodological neatness rather than national idiosyncrasy. Comparing different systems under different circumstances and basing any conclusion on the fact that there is a difference in measured results is a rather strange approach to logic. I don't know any country with a comparable setting (urbanization, diversity, immigration background, per capita spending on education) to Germany that gets better results than Germany which could be credited on the question "tiered or not".
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Oct 4, 2011 21:38
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Einbauschrank posted:I think "ceteris paribus" is more a matter of widely accepted methodological neatness rather than national idiosyncrasy. Comparing different systems under different circumstances and basing any conclusion on the fact that there is a difference in measured results is a rather strange approach to logic. Holy poo poo  How can you write those two paragraphs above each other?
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Oct 4, 2011 21:53
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StrangeRobot posted:Who the gently caress cares about your xenophobic opinions about turks and muslims? Whom you never tire to bad-mouth at any given opportunity. Your lack of facts is nicely correlating to your lack of manners. I don't think I have stated anything that might be interpreted as bad-mouthing. You can disapprove of my statements and try to disprove them, but in any case I would suggest you behave like a grown up instead of throwing a childish tantrum, because what might be socially accepted behaviour in your peer group is oddly disturbing in any polite society. Edit: wrong reference. Plankalkuel posted:Holy poo poo How can you fail to understand it? Einbauschrank fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 22:04
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StrangeRobot posted:Tell us more about what you, a canadian/serb living abroad, thinks constitutes true Germanness. Considering I have actually invested myself academically into the German language and culture I'd like to think I'm entitled to a few opinions of my own which I have stated in a civil fashion. Your response on the other hand seems to be rooted more in conditioned knee-jerk emotional reaction than any facts that you actually attempted to verify. I've said my piece and your adhominem attempts to suppress my opinion reek of the very fascism you claim to be crusading against. DerDestroyer fucked around with this message at 22:44 on Oct 4, 2011 |
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Oct 4, 2011 22:34
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Baronjutter posted:I used to think germany was pretty cool, but it's probably only berlin. Germany is really sounding like the US of europe. It's the biggest economy but it's full of right wing religious folk with awful blame-the-victim racism and a "that's just extreme left propaganda!" to any social or economic development since the 70's. 
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Oct 5, 2011 00:03
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flavor posted:I'm in favor of recording interrogations as well as court proceedings. That being said, it doesn't mean that not having this automatically makes all confessions forced and everybody become corrupt. If there was a notable problem with forced confessions in Germany, that would have come up somehow in public discourse. Germany is far from being a "tough on crime" country like the US in this regard. And the idea that it would come up in discourse is kinda the point, because if you read DeusExs' post, you'd see it kinda has, hasn't it? Aren't we talking about it right now as well? flavor posted:No effective accountability in cases of corruption. Consider that Germany is a country where police get written up if they speed outside of being in a pursuit. And not having identity numbers means they aren't accountable at all, because how can you complain about some faceless copper that hosed you over? It's also just the idea that they don't need one that is dangerous. flavor posted:This is not to say they're perfect, but they're generally not as bad as James Bond villain henchmen. Again, I fully support recordings and numbers on uniforms. flavor posted:Sorry, I can't see anything bad per se in trying to protect a country against serious external and internal threats. How and when to do it is a matter of debate of course, but I can't say that wiretapping people who pose serious threats is always wrong. flavor posted:My main point is that Germany is now one of the better behaved countries when it comes to human rights and related issues. The mere fact that it does some things that aren't perfect and that other countries around it are also doing doesn't mean that Germany hasn't learned anything. The fact that you're doing well though, doesn't mean you shouldn't to better. DerDestroyer posted:But I can't help but point out that a lot of the people Einbauschrank is talking about basically resent Germany, the German culture and the system they live in and would rather their kids not even learn the German language. The rest of your argument was demolished pretty well be dreamin so I'll skip it. DerDestroyer posted:Considering I have actually invested myself academically into the German language and culture I'd like to think I'm entitled to a few opinions of my own which I have stated in a civil fashion. Your response on the other hand seems to be rooted more in conditioned knee-jerk emotional reaction than any facts that you actually attempted to verify. (Also, hilarious "No you are the fascist!, have you considered a career in comedy?)
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Oct 5, 2011 03:09
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Anecdotal evidence: In the 6 months I spent living in Germany and on the many occasions I go back I have not met a single person like this. Not one. It's almost as if the fact that I go to my small rich prosperous village where they made an actual effort to integrate their immigrants makes a difference to going to a lovely urban hellscape where they hosed them over, rather than it being the fact that they're Turks. Nope. Tell us more about how you support honor killings and oppression against women and antisocial behavior on the basis of multiculturalism. http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,777109,00.html Eastern Anatolia, the writing is on the wall. I got no problem with the other Turks or foreigners in general but denying there is a problem on both ends is intellectually dishonest. DerDestroyer fucked around with this message at 03:32 on Oct 5, 2011 |
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Oct 5, 2011 03:26
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DerDestroyer posted:Nope. DerDestroyer posted:Tell us more about how you support honor killings and oppression against women and antisocial behavior on the basis of multiculturalism. From your comments you have apparently studied academics but you don't seem to want to cite studies or statistics, but an article about a documentary on a thing that happened 6 years ago. Hey, let me try this whole throw an article at a person instead of facts: http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,777997,00.html Dr Oberwittler posted:"Such crimes are almost exclusively committed by a small, poorly integrated underclass. The 'honor killing' is in no way typical behavior for the Turkish community in Germany." DerDestroyer posted:I got no problem with the other Turks or foreigners in general but denying there is a problem on both ends is intellectually dishonest.
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Oct 5, 2011 06:10
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You yourself started up with "anecdotal evidence" which isn't worth anything. Calling racism and class discrimination, in Germany, "endemic" in a wider context is both wrong and dishonest, considering a comparison to other nations such as, the USA, UK, France, Poland, Russia, etc. The entire subject matter is huge and could be argued until the end of time and multi-cultural problems are rarely one-sided or simple. Oh and about honor killings, a girl from my school got stabbed to death with 20 stabs in broad daylight, down the street from where I was. Because she wanted to live like a German girl. Declaring "a thing" "small" is disgusting when "it" is actual real people dying horrifying deaths. Even it if were only one. az fucked around with this message at 07:25 on Oct 5, 2011 |
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Oct 5, 2011 07:22
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Deceitful Penguin posted:Good thing that in politics we are more often than not talking about specific real life things ne? How much do you know about your Intelligence Agencies? How often have they cracked down on certain groups? You'd know better than me, of course. What the gently caress are you even trying to imply here? Here what the Verfassungsschutz has been up to for the las couple of years. http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/de/publikationen/verfassungsschutzbericht/
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Oct 5, 2011 09:07
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"hankor" posted:Here what the Verfassungsschutz has been up to for the las couple of years. That's what they want you to believe, man 
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Oct 5, 2011 10:31
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hankor posted:What the gently caress are you even trying to imply here? You know that the Verfassungsschutz reports for the public are only of very global nature. The juicy details of specific operations are naturally not published. Like all those nice things from the RAF years. We still don't know if Verena Becker, RAF terrorist and accused of the murder of general attorney Buback, was a Verfassungsschutz informant and as such received protection from the agency, against police investigation or not. It remains classified even for the courts. Also in some Ländern (states) the Linke is watched over by the Verfassungsschutz, in others it's not, depending who has the political majority there. This illustrates the point that being an "enemy of the constitutional order" is just another political opinion, that can conviently be changed to harass people you happen to ideologically to disagree with. Basically when people are deemed dangerous terrorists, they should be watched over by the police with court orders and all. The Verfassungschutz thing creates an ugly category: "Well, they are not criminals, but political suspicious", which just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. DeusEx fucked around with this message at 21:09 on Oct 5, 2011 |
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Oct 5, 2011 10:46
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^^^ Of course the Verfassungsschutz doesn't give detailed repots to the public, that's the nature of the profession. The RAF-years were a rather difficult time that has brought some rather strong challenges to how robust the constitution actually is. With the involvement of the GDR and pretty much every other intelligence agency I doubt even the Verfassungsschutz knows who was really working for whom. Why the Linke is watched is outlined in the corresponding Verfassungsschutzberichten. They are not watched because they are deemed an "enemy of the constitutional order" they are watched because certain elements (namely the most left wing of the party) have the potential to be. I can see that this could seem like a slippery slope, but it really isn't. The Verfassungsschutz usually only uses public sources and anyone is free to appear before the Constitutional Court if he feels he is unjustly targeted. The category of people that are highly suspicious but aren't technically criminals is not exactly something that is easy to swallow but when you have people like this fuckhead or this piece of poo poo you can't do anything about them but watch them and try to prevent what they want to set in motion.
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Oct 5, 2011 11:48
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The Verfassungsschutz is mostly useless and rather harmless because they either spend time and money wiretapping on random people or fumble big cases, like oh, the NPD desaster. An agency too stupid to keep tabs on the nazi party, clap clap.
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Oct 5, 2011 11:59
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az posted:You yourself started up with "anecdotal evidence" which isn't worth anything. Which is in direct opposition to his supposition that multiculturalism is failing. az posted:Calling racism and class discrimination, in Germany, "endemic" in a wider context is both wrong and dishonest, considering a comparison to other nations such as, the USA, UK, France, Poland, Russia, etc. az posted:The entire subject matter is huge and could be argued until the end of time and multi-cultural problems are rarely one-sided or simple. az posted:Oh and about honor killings, a girl from my school got stabbed to death with 20 stabs in broad daylight, down the street from where I was. Because she wanted to live like a German girl. Declaring "a thing" "small" is disgusting when "it" is actual real people dying horrifying deaths. Even it if were only one. But trying to make the defining characteristic of Turks honour killing when it's such a small and regrettable part of their culture isn't right. It's meant to otherize them, which doesn't help solve the problem. And I do think that compared to the other problems that Turks face, honour killing isn't so big. hankor posted:What the gently caress are you even trying to imply here? hankor posted:Here what the Verfassungsschutz has been up to for the last couple of years.  I'll read it later, I have to get the house ready for my host parents who are coming today to Iceland. We're making Spätzle for them.Edit: Lessening the dickishness of my post. Deceitful Penguin fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Oct 5, 2011 |
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Oct 5, 2011 12:04
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az posted:The Verfassungsschutz is mostly useless and rather harmless because they either spend time and money wiretapping on random people or fumble big cases, like oh, the NPD desaster. An agency too stupid to keep tabs on the nazi party, clap clap. Actually they were keeping tabs on the NPD, so much indeed, that a sizeable share of NPD members were Verfassungsschutz informants. When they tried to outlaw the NPD by the constitutional court, it failed because the court suspected that the influence of the Verfassungsschutz on the NPD was indeed so massive, that it could be argued that the party was more or less run by the Verfassungsschutz itself. The court then demanded the disclosure of the Verfassungsschutz informants to assess the scope of the influence the agency had on the party. As the Verfassungsschutz refused the court access to their informant files, the case collapsed. DeusEx fucked around with this message at 21:08 on Oct 5, 2011 |
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Oct 5, 2011 12:56
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Deceitful Penguin posted:you you. you you You'd know you guys Deceitful Penguin posted:And the idea that it would come up in discourse is kinda the point, because if you read DeusExs' post, you'd see it kinda has, hasn't it? Aren't we talking about it right now as well? Deceitful Penguin posted:Is, that supposed to mean anything? Good on you for holding police up to the same standard as normal people, which is pretty much the rule in the rest of the civilized world? Deceitful Penguin posted:And not having identity numbers means they aren't accountable at all, because how can you complain about some faceless copper that hosed you over? It's also just the idea that they don't need one that is dangerous. Deceitful Penguin posted:Good thing that in politics we are more often than not talking about specific real life things ne? How much do you know about your Intelligence Agencies? How often have they cracked down on certain groups? You'd know better than me, of course.
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Oct 5, 2011 13:06
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az posted:Declaring "a thing" "small" is disgusting when "it" is actual real people dying horrifying deaths. Even it if were only one. Contrary to what Sarrazin worshippers believe we actually have laws against those things. Murder no matter for what reason is actually highly illegal in Germany. We have a huge organisation in this country that day and night does nothing else but to hunt down, capture and lock up people (in special facilities called prisons) who even so much as attempt to murder others. That mysterious organisation is called the police. hankor posted:Why the Linke is watched is outlined in the corresponding Verfassungsschutzberichten. They are not watched because they are deemed an "enemy of the constitutional order" they are watched because certain elements (namely the most left wing of the party) have the potential to be. Nah, they're being watched so that CDU politicians can claim that the Linke party is being watched and scare your average German into believing that they are a bunch of insane SED/Stalinist would-be murderers just waiting for the opportunity to ship us all off to siberia. And pretty much during every federal, state or local election you'll have CDU and FDP politicians coyly accuse the Linke polititians of being watched by the Verfassungsschutz, which is completely unsurprising since they themselves gave that watching order but on the surface the Linke then looks very suspicious for your average voter. Also interesting that lots of former GDR fatcats ended up not in the Linke but right in the now most vocal anti-GDR parties. (except for the Greens, they were too weak to be attractive back then) But thats nothing new, our wonderfully democratic conservative friends gladly accepted even high ranking former Nazis into their ranks back "then". They somehow never mention that when throwing a tantrum about the Linke having people who may have lived near an SED dishwasher in their ranks. Whats really funny though is that the constitution is actually constantly and repeatedly being violated by conservative governments without those parties ever getting on the watchlist. All that happens is that they create new laws that retroactively absolve them of any crimes or simply the violation simply gets ignored and nobody cares. Right now as we're speaking here they are about to hand over German sovereignity to some obsure conglomerate in Bruxelles, will the fabled Verfassungsschutz protect us from that? Somehow I guess not. az posted:Calling racism and class discrimination, in Germany, "endemic" in a wider context is both wrong and dishonest, considering a comparison to other nations such as, the USA, UK, France, Poland, Russia, etc. Even here in this thread on an obscure american comedy site far far away from any internet place your average german would visit we have some pretty interesting opinions about them mussulmen. In the real world we'd have to be arguing behind some alaskan shed at night to match the obscurity of this place. Imagine what it's like back in German internet places or even the real world in Germany. The scaringly positive reactions that Sarrazin guy got from your average guy on the street, even though his claims were utter bullshit with barely any base in reality, that was pretty damning I would say. In Germany, below a thin layer of democratic pretence many full blown fascists seem to be lurking. That's not to say it's not worse in say, Britain. Their reactions to the recent riots were completely  Still we're talking about Germany, our home. And what's Germany about if not perfection?
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Oct 5, 2011 20:57
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StrangeRobot posted:Whats really funny though is that the constitution is actually constantly and repeatedly being violated by conservative governments without those parties ever getting on the watchlist. All that happens is that they create new laws that retroactively absolve them of any crimes or simply the violation simply gets ignored and nobody cares. Right now as we're speaking here they are about to hand over German sovereignity to some obsure conglomerate in Bruxelles, will the fabled Verfassungsschutz protect us from that? Somehow I guess not. Care to elaborate on that point? I especially would love to hear your thoughts on how what you claim regarding the EU relates to Solange II.
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Oct 5, 2011 21:11
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So a opinion question for any resident germans here I was watching Al-Jazeera People and Power 2011 Germanys Records of Repression regarding East Germany and it seemed to be making the point that Germany shouldn't have granted amnesty for former Stasi and run for elections (or at least implied). What do people here think? Was amnesty necessary for reconciliation or do you think that the courts should have gotten very busy very quickly?
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Oct 5, 2011 21:31
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Raenir Salazar posted:So a opinion question for any resident germans here I was watching Al-Jazeera People and Power 2011 Germanys Records of Repression regarding East Germany and it seemed to be making the point that Germany shouldn't have granted amnesty for former Stasi and run for elections (or at least implied). There wasn't an amnesty per se, but you can only convict people if they broke the law, or committed grave human rights violations. Since the Stasi was a legal entity within the GDR (East Germany), being a member of it, doesn't constitute a breach of law. Anything else would be retroactive appliance of law, which is unconstitutional pretty much throughout the world. But within its nature as an intelligence service, the Stasi committed crimes that were even against the law of the GDR. People who were found guilty of this, were also convicted. Additionally there have been civil repercussions for former Stasi members. They receive less pension, than they would have normally received and face difficulties when they want to join the public service.
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Oct 5, 2011 21:46
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hankor posted:Care to elaborate on that point? I especially would love to hear your thoughts on how what you claim regarding the EU relates to Solange II. Come on, the Verfassungsgericht constantly declares laws to be unconstitutional. I don't keep a list of that though so would it be enough to just mention the Hartz IV decision, or the Überhangmandate/electoral system stuff off the top of my head? My point is if those laws WERE unconstitutional how come the party that enacted them isn't on the watchlist while people who never violated the constitution are? Then there are the highly disputed cases where stuff that would 100% have been illegal before somehow magically passes even the Verfassungsgericht, like the 90ies attack on Serbia(although that was decided by SPD/Greens if I remember right), the weaseling out of drafting an actual Verfassung(with participation of the unified German people, like promised before) when reunification came, participation in the Afghan war(SPD again? maybe) and most recently the decision about parliament's sovereignity over the fiscal budgeting(I meant that with the handing over of sovereignity). I don't understand the legalese of Solange II. clearly enough to comment on that. Would you care to translate that? Because right now I interpret it being pretty much a joke law/rule. They basically say: European community basic law is as good as ours so you file your complaints there as long as the EU doesnt't pass laws that would be deemed illegal by us. The joke is that while this may in theory protect us from bullshit minor EU laws, let's not kid ourselves and pretend that the Verfassungsgericht would stop anything with actual political momentum/weight behind it. Correct me if I'm wrong. EDIT: Also let's not forget that Verfassungsgericht decisions can take years to be made. So while in theory you can always complain there, an illegal governmental decision can gently caress you over for literal years, and thats really not that comforting to know, because they DO pass unconstitutional poo poo first and then grudgingly abide by the courts decision years later, instead of doing it the other way round: Check all laws if they are compliant with the Grundgesetz. StrangeRobot fucked around with this message at 22:06 on Oct 5, 2011 |
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Oct 5, 2011 21:52
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Edit: quote is apparently not edit
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Oct 5, 2011 22:02
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quote:Additionally there have been civil repercussions for former Stasi members. They receive less pension, than they would have normally received and face difficulties when they want to join the public service. Curious, the documentary makes the opposite case that the pensions for former Stasi were better than their west german counter parts.
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Oct 5, 2011 22:07
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Raenir Salazar posted:Curious, the documentary makes the opposite case that the pensions for former Stasi were better than their west german counter parts. I would really, really question this.
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Oct 5, 2011 22:09
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StrangeRobot posted:Come on, the Verfassungsgericht constantly declares laws to be unconstitutional. I don't keep a list of that though so would it be enough to just mention the Hartz IV decision, or the Überhangmandate/electoral system stuff off the top of my head? My point is if those laws WERE unconstitutional how come the party that enacted them isn't on the watchlist while people who never violated the constitution are? Because those laws were not passed with the intent to actively undermine the constitution. The german law is based on abstract wording, so instead of just saying "car" we say "power-driven vehicle" it is done this way so you can't weasel yourself out too easily and so we don't have to change everything in case something new comes around. This however has the major drawback that it's also pretty open to interpretation, so what seems like a good draft on first sight could still be unconstitutional because of the way it can be interpreted. In that case the Bundesverfassungsgericht either overrules the decision that was made due to a certain interpretation, thereby clarifying how the law is to be interpreted, or it simply deems the whole law unconstitutional because it's not specific enough, discriminates someone or whatever. The latter case is pretty rare and doesn't mean that the underlying idea in itself is unconstitutional just this specific incarnation of the resulting law. StrangeRobot posted:Then there are the highly disputed cases where stuff that would 100% have been illegal before somehow magically passes even the Verfassungsgericht, like the 90ies attack on Serbia(although that was decided by SPD/Greens if I remember right), the weaseling out of drafting an actual Verfassung(with participation of the unified German people, like promised before) when reunification came, participation in the Afghan war(SPD again? maybe) and most recently the decision about parliament's sovereignity over the fiscal budgeting(I meant that with the handing over of sovereignity). You are completely right, the Bundesverfassungsgericht does change it's stance from time to time, it would be pretty bad if it didn't. Just imagine if they'd still hold the same values as they did in the 70's. With time the interpretation of the constitution and what it means evolves, mainly because the society itself changes and the BVerfG is not there to mandate morale values but to protect the people from the goverment (and to an extent from other people), so the BVerfG has to reflect what the people would deem to be constitutional if they'd actually cared. Naturally some areas of the constitution are off limits but it can be rather flexible at times which might not be to your liking in some cases but that's democracy for you. Have a look at how some americans think they can justify having heavy machine guns because it says "arms" in the constitution, it's like that but not quite as lenient. Please don't claim that the "Grundgesetz" is not an actual constitution because it's called the "Verfassung" or that the government weaseled out of drafting a new one, it makes you look stupid. Our constitution is widely agreed to be a drat good one, throwing all that away and rewriting it would've been completely pointless. Take a look at the Präambel and you'll see whose constitution it is (don't get irritated because god is mentioned). StrangeRobot posted:I don't understand the legalese of Solange II. clearly enough to comment on that. Would you care to translate that? Because right now I interpret it being pretty much a joke law/rule. They basically say: European community basic law is as good as ours so you file your complaints there as long as the EU doesnt't pass laws that would be deemed illegal by us. The joke is that while this may in theory protect us from bullshit minor EU laws, let's not kid ourselves and pretend that the Verfassungsgericht would stop anything with actual political momentum/weight behind it. Correct me if I'm wrong. What may seem like a joke ruling is actually very important. It basically means that the german constitution is not applicable to european law that is applicable in germany as long as the european courts have a standard that is similar enough to our constitution. This ruling is so important because it makes clear that we are ready to make some concessions in order to further the european idea but that our allegiance is to our constitution and that we will never sacrifice it's core values. StrangeRobot posted:Also let's not forget that Verfassungsgericht decisions can take years to be made. So while in theory you can always complain there, an illegal governmental decision can gently caress you over for literal years, and thats really not that comforting to know, because they DO pass unconstitutional poo poo first and then grudgingly abide by the courts decision years later, instead of doing it the other way round: Check all laws if they are compliant with the Grundgesetz. Let's have a nice analogy, let's say you decide to have a baby. You see it grow up and it brings you years of joy. Since you want the baby to grow up to become a successful doctor you give him a toy stethoscope on it's fifth birthday. Your baby goes to the gymnasium and on its graduation day you decide that since it's such a good baby you'll sponsor a trip to the states to meet your uncle whose a rather successful plastic surgeon. After the baby comes back it starts studying medicine. After a couple of years it becomes a plastic surgeon itself. You grow old and are pretty satisfied with how your baby turned out. On your death bed the baby confesses that it tried to hear the heart of some bugs with the stethoscope you gave to it, when it couldn't hear any it got angry and killed them. You find that story pretty cute, in the end it was nothing serious. Then the baby tells you that in eleventh grade he performed CPR on someone which he was able to do since you spurred his interest in medicine when you gave him the stethoscope. While coughing some blood you are smiling because you raised a good little baby. The nurse cleans your mouth from the blood and you notice the big knockers on the nurse and you give your baby a knowing nod since you'd recognize its work from a mile away. After you have peacefully passed away some policemen come crashing through the window screaming and waiving a warrant for your baby. Turns out your sweet little angel has developed a habit of raping his patients when they were unconscious ten years after it graduated university. It didn't always have that habit, but when it grew older and its patients grew younger something just snapped, it was still the same baby but the patients changed. And it's all your fault, you should have conducted a police investigation before loving the babies mom. Or was the baby itself good and you ruined it by giving him that drat stethoscope? Maybe the uncle? You don't know it but what turned you sweet little baby into the raping sociopath it is was that one time you went fishing and it saw all those helpless little fish in the bucket. In other words, you can't always foresee what you create, especially not when you modify it. tl;dr: Constitutions are actually a bit complex. hankor fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Oct 5, 2011 |
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Oct 5, 2011 23:12
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StrangeRobot posted:Also interesting that lots of former GDR fatcats ended up not in the Linke but right in the now most vocal anti-GDR parties. (except for the Greens, they were too weak to be attractive back then) But thats nothing new, our wonderfully democratic conservative friends gladly accepted even high ranking former Nazis into their ranks back "then". They somehow never mention that when throwing a tantrum about the Linke having people who may have lived near an SED dishwasher in their ranks. They don't mention it because it clearly is a different thing to stay in a party that was respnsible for 40 years of oppression and to enter a democratic party. Some fun facts: 1. While the NSDAP was forbidden, the socialist SED simply renamed itself several times and is now called "die Linke". The fact that they gobbled up the WASG loonies doesn't change that fact,that there is still an unbroken line of continuity between the criminal SED that ruled the socialist dictatorship GDR and the party "die Linke". 2. There is a difference between leaving a party that was the main pillar of a dictatorship and becoming a member of a democratic party and between staying in a renamed party that was the main pillar of a dictatorship. The NSDAP members that went into democratic parties didn't continue NSDAP politics. Neither do rank and file SEDler who left for other parties continue the socialist stupidity. (Fun fact: Many NSDAP members even worked for the GDR and exchanged one dictatorship for the next.) The SED members who stayed in the SED (95% left this criminal organization as soon as it was possible, leaving only the really pig-headed socialists behind) are still aiming at Socialism. There is a direct line of continuity from the SED to the renamed "die Linke". The "Linke" would be comparable to a non-forbidden NSDAP that simply renamed itself into "Superdemocratic Freedomloving Party" that was rebuilt around the 5% of the most ardent Nazis who didn't leave the party after 1945 and was still trying to get Nazism 2.0 running by "overcoming the system". I guess that would warrant some observation, doesn't it? Ask yourself: What kind of person stays in a political party that was responsible for 40 years of dictatorship and poverty and what kind of lunatic or uninformed moron you must be to enter a party like this after there no longer is a dictatorial system that requires it of you. Even people defending a party like that are to my mind either despicable extremists or fools who haven't learned a thing about history.
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Oct 6, 2011 08:16
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Einbauschrank posted:They don't mention it because it clearly is a different thing to stay in a party that was respnsible for 40 years of oppression and to enter a democratic party. Well, then I'm a despicable fool. Better have me watched over by the Verfassungschutz. Oh, and also all the people in former East Germany, who should have suffered the most from the SED regime, and still vote for the Linke in large numbers must be despicable idiots. But mostly I like that you accuse of people aiming for socialism, as if this would be something evil and nefarious. It may come as a surprise for you, there are a lot of people out there, that think that our current capitalistic system where we funnel more and more public money into the financial institutions, while financing this with austerity measures for the broader public, is morally despicable. Why don't we talk about CDU heroes like Filbinger, who served death sentences as a Nazi judge on the navy martial court and was prime minister of Baden-Württemberg, or Globke, who was director of Adenauers chancellery, and a commentator of the Nuremburg Race Laws under the Third Reich.
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Oct 6, 2011 08:53
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DeusEx posted:
The historic fact still stands that there has never been a successfull marriage between socialism and democracy. And frankly, having spent most of my youth in the imediate aftermath of the GDR, and having heard all the little stories about how the glorious socialist system made life hell for people who were not 100% on line, I do consider socialism, as it was practised in the GDR, to be Evil with a capital E. Funnily enough, this does not mean I am a proponent of laissez-faire capitalism.
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Oct 6, 2011 12:18
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^^^ That's the difference though isn't it? You grew up close to the suffering caused by authoritarian socialism (which an incredibly small number of people support or want nowadays, by the way), but most of the suffering caused by capitalism is far away.
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Oct 6, 2011 12:36
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Einbauschrank posted:They don't mention it because it clearly is a different thing to stay in a party that was respnsible for 40 years of oppression and to enter a democratic party. You're a complete nutter if you seriously think the GDR and the loving third Reich are anywhere on the same scale of evil. StrangeRobot fucked around with this message at 18:06 on Oct 6, 2011 |
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Oct 6, 2011 18:03
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Deceitful Penguin posted:
It's dishonest when you seemingly single out Germany and declare racism endemic, when compared to its neighbours or other large nations it's actually neither the worst, most or in fact, endemic. There's this idea floating about that Germany still somehow compares to the third Reich, or is the beacon of white supremacy of modern times, both of which are absurd. Speaking of Scandinavia, the countries in question have had a considerably smaller number of immigration and smaller percentage of foreign rooted population. However you will find that there is a considerable amount of racism and white supremacy beneath the surface. The reaction a black man would receive in Hamburg is considerably different than say Oslo. Excactly because there are fewer "foreigners" and the native population isn't as used to them as for example Germans are. People like Breivik are just the newest and scariest byproduct of culture struggle in Scandinavia, and it may just get worse before it gets better. quote:
True on a matter of fact basis, but I personally despise the idea of carte-blanching either side in a problematic situation. I've heard people say to my face that "it's just what they do". Ignoring that in the cultural struggle in Germany, both sides, or actually all sides (the state, policy, politics, politicians, german nationals, foreigners, immigrants, etc) play ball and have their faults is bad for discourse and will lead to nothing but finger pointing. DeusEx posted:Actually they were keeping tabs on the NPD, so much indeed, that a sizeable share of NPD members were Verfassungsschutz informants. When they tried to outlaw the NPD by the constitutional court, it failed because the court suspected that the influence of the Verfassungsschutz on the NPD was indeed so massive, that it could be argued that the party was more or less run by the Verfassungsschutz itself. Excactly which I was hinting at, thanks for writing it out though. That's how the VVS is too stupid to do its job. StrangeRobot posted:Contrary to what Sarrazin worshippers I don't know what drugs you're on but they're definitely stronger than mine. Also you have poo poo for reading comprehension skills and attempts at irony. See: you lumping me in with some uneducated ideologue that, like you, knows poo poo about poo poo. quote:Still we're talking about Germany, our home. And what's Germany about if not perfection? Oooh this one is good. See ladies and gentlemen this is the perfect example of shifting blame in German public discourse. Anytime any situation is depicted in anything but pure black and white, clownshoe after clownshoe will yell out feebly and throw the nearest object at you. Why don't you call me a Nazi next time you post. Einbauschrank posted:1. the socialist SED simply renamed itself several times and is now called "die Linke". The fact that they gobbled up the WASG loonies doesn't change that fact,that there is still an unbroken line of continuity between the criminal SED that ruled the socialist dictatorship GDR and the party "die Linke". Calling this wrong unless you provide evidence of some sort of planned reformation into the Linke. As far as the public is aware, the Linke is a collection of socialist politicians that hail mostly from the SPD, Greens and, to some degree, former SEDs. Reading the rest of your post, you seem to have a massive bone to pick with the Linke. I have some ideas as to where you got your ideas from but I'd like to hear from you. az fucked around with this message at 19:32 on Oct 6, 2011 |
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Oct 6, 2011 19:12
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az posted:I don't know what drugs you're on but they're definitely stronger than mine. Also you have poo poo for reading comprehension skills and attempts at irony. See: you lumping me in with some uneducated ideologue that, like you, knows poo poo about poo poo. No, you misunderstood me, I didn't mean to say that you are a Sarrazin worshipper or Nazi or whatever. I was speaking about those who constantly pretend that honour killings are legal here. I just quoted you beacause you were the last person to mention that topic, adressing "the audience" not you specifically, maybe that didn't turn out the way I intentioned. Still while honour killings are horrible they are really really rare, not what I would call a major problem, certainly not something that should make us question the sanity of a huge part of the immigrant population. But to be clear, yes criminals who murder people to keep a retarded sense of honour are a problem that should also be adressed. But it is being adressed, so well there you go.
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Oct 6, 2011 19:40
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