Germany Thread: KEIN FASCHISMUS LEUDE BIDDE

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Germany Thread: KEIN FASCHISMUS LEUDE BIDDE

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

I was an exchange student in Schawben, anything interesting happen there recently?

# ¿ Sep 27, 2011 17:10

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 15:20

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

DeusEx posted:

Some examples of Germanys "unique" view on human rights:

Holy poo poo. I had no idea you had this kind of insanity going on. I was going to make a post about how at least you guys aren't like the Japanese who try to trivialize their actions in WW2 but it seems you're more like them than I thought.

# ¿ Oct 2, 2011 19:11

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Orange Devil posted:

In the Netherlands we also don't have video or audio recordings of police interrogations, and on top of that you don't even have the right of a lawyer being present, as far as I know. It's backwards as hell but it's also tradition and very convenient for the police, so it's very hard to change. It's no surprise that in many high profile murder cases of the last decades, the police has ended up getting tunnelvision and hounding the wrong suspect for years. This must be some kind of weird northern-continental Europe thing or something. I wonder how Belgium and Denmark do these things.

Well cripes son, I'm sorry your country is bad in that. I've only visited the Netherlands briefly but from what I saw it was hella chill. Sad to hear this. I know Iceland does these things differently but we're the Yank of Europe, so we're not really indicative of the general trends there, so yeah, it would be interesting to know more about the general poo poo in Europe regarding this. Maybe that's heading off-topic though.

Orange Devil posted:

I don't really see what any of the examples DeusEx gave have to do with WW2 though. I find that the younger generations of Germans are really good about WW2, and the older the German the higher the chance gets of them still holding some pretty reprehensible views. I don't think that's unique to Germany though. Although there's a shocking amount of hate for Turks sometimes. The most shocking to me was when we needed an emergency dentist and went to a hospital that had some, and there was a lot of people waiting and all the dentists were very busy, except for one Turkish woman. People would rather suffer dental pain than be treated by her I guess. There was a good chance she was going to lose that job, and it was a pretty drat sad situation. We've also seen some casual racism in stores from middle aged or old Germans, and our elderly neigbhour with his bloodgroup tattood on his arm is about as racist as you'd expect, but the younger generations are again much better.

It was, strange, sometimes in Germany talking to people about racism against Turks in Germany. I remember that the South American exchange students picked it up right away and were really surprised about it because to them it was just amazing how much casual and overt racism there was around them and it wasn't until they pointed it out to me I noticed it, so I think that to a native it's probably pretty hard to see it.
poo poo, I remember them bringing it up to the head of the local AFS chapter and he told us that the reason we didn't see more Turks in Gymnasium was because they didn't speak German, and that somehow this was their fault and not an indicator there was something really wrong with things there in Germany.

flavor posted:

Yeah, that absolutely follows from someone pointing that there are government agencies trying to protect the country, that there is no video of people being interrogated and that women were late to be accepted to the military.

Not saying those aren't valid points, but they have nothing to do with trivializing any actions in WW2 unless you can explain to me that due to lessons from World War II there ought to be women in the military.

Well, I was hoping not having to go too off-topic talking about Japan, but all that poo poo he talked about are things that are in Japan, only pretty much worse.
Japanese Justice is a huge laugh, if you know Phoenix Wright, it is an accurate description of the Japanese justice system, for a obviously dramatized video game.
One of the huge loving problems is the problem of forced confessions. This is why the not recording interrogations is so huge. Without this, the police are free to do anything that doesn't leave visible marks and even then, they sometimes do.
And not having identity numbers on the cops is just idiotic. What it means is there is no accountability. You see that, surely.
Intelligence agencies in general give me the creeps. For the longest time Iceland didn't have one, but at least I've met the guy and he seemed ok, for a spook.
All this wiretapping poo poo reminds me of the Cold War, when communists were wiretapped and discriminated against.

Actually, what I was going to say originally is that, considering WW2 at least, you are doing a hell of a lot better than the other participants. History books of the allies rarely mention the American Internment camps of Japanese-Americans or the Fire Bombing of Dresden, while on the Axis side the Japanese try and cast themselves as victims because of the atomic bombings. Consider poo poo like the textbook controversies and the fact that they did things just as bad if not worse than the Nazis, them trying to make light of it is loving sick.
So, kudos for that at least. I remember being really really drunk and telling jokes and trying to remember ones in English and ending on a Jew joke and they were really worried about whether I was a racist or a Nazi, because they were aware that there were still people like that left in Germany and that they were a problem.

# ¿ Oct 3, 2011 05:13

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

flavor posted:

I'm in favor of recording interrogations as well as court proceedings. That being said, it doesn't mean that not having this automatically makes all confessions forced and everybody become corrupt. If there was a notable problem with forced confessions in Germany, that would have come up somehow in public discourse. Germany is far from being a "tough on crime" country like the US in this regard.

Well it's great I wasn't comparing it to the Glorious Yankeeland then? I was actually comparing it to the horribly corrupt Japanese, who seem to have the same problems you do to a much more serious extent. That is what it lead to there. It doesn't, of course, mean that it will do so for you. It does mean however, that you are actually worse than the yanks in something, which is a pretty dire situation to be in.
And the idea that it would come up in discourse is kinda the point, because if you read DeusExs' post, you'd see it kinda has, hasn't it? Aren't we talking about it right now as well?

flavor posted:

No effective accountability in cases of corruption. Consider that Germany is a country where police get written up if they speed outside of being in a pursuit.

Is, that supposed to mean anything? Good on you for holding police up to the same standard as normal people, which is pretty much the rule in the rest of the civilized world?
And not having identity numbers means they aren't accountable at all, because how can you complain about some faceless copper that hosed you over? It's also just the idea that they don't need one that is dangerous.

flavor posted:

This is not to say they're perfect, but they're generally not as bad as James Bond villain henchmen. Again, I fully support recordings and numbers on uniforms.

Yeah, I get that. I'm not arguing that they are, my good man. Although I would say that I hate the new colours they sport. They used to look so, nice, you know?

flavor posted:

Sorry, I can't see anything bad per se in trying to protect a country against serious external and internal threats. How and when to do it is a matter of debate of course, but I can't say that wiretapping people who pose serious threats is always wrong.

Good thing that in politics we are more often than not talking about specific real life things ne? How much do you know about your Intelligence Agencies? How often have they cracked down on certain groups? You'd know better than me, of course.

flavor posted:

My main point is that Germany is now one of the better behaved countries when it comes to human rights and related issues. The mere fact that it does some things that aren't perfect and that other countries around it are also doing doesn't mean that Germany hasn't learned anything.

No no no. I never said you hadn't improved. I was always impressed that you guys hadn't still given up on the whole WW2 thing, I certainly I know I was sick of hearing about it all the time after 6 months of it.
The fact that you're doing well though, doesn't mean you shouldn't to better.

DerDestroyer posted:

But I can't help but point out that a lot of the people Einbauschrank is talking about basically resent Germany, the German culture and the system they live in and would rather their kids not even learn the German language.

Anecdotal evidence: In the 6 months I spent living in Germany and on the many occasions I go back I have not met a single person like this. Not one. It's almost as if the fact that I go to my small rich prosperous village where they made an actual effort to integrate their immigrants makes a difference to going to a lovely urban hellscape where they hosed them over, rather than it being the fact that they're Turks.

The rest of your argument was demolished pretty well be dreamin so I'll skip it.

DerDestroyer posted:

Considering I have actually invested myself academically into the German language and culture I'd like to think I'm entitled to a few opinions of my own which I have stated in a civil fashion. Your response on the other hand seems to be rooted more in conditioned knee-jerk emotional reaction than any facts that you actually attempted to verify.

I've said my piece and your adhominem attempts to suppress my opinion reek of the very fascism you claim to be crusading against.

You're being kinda emotional there for a single line of text asking a pretty good question, The Destroyer. I'm sure he was just asking for clarification, it's not like you're a ~~dirty turk~~ member of a non-integrating minority, but a fine white person from another European culture. Hell, your posting resembles a certain type of German thinking so well that I wouldn't even know you were Canadian if you hadn't said so!
(Also, hilarious "No you are the fascist!, have you considered a career in comedy?)

# ¿ Oct 5, 2011 03:09

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

DerDestroyer posted:

Nope.

Please Stop stifling the debate with your emotional knee-jerk one-liners please.

DerDestroyer posted:

Tell us more about how you support honor killings and oppression against women and antisocial behavior on the basis of multiculturalism.
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,777109,00.html

Eastern Anatolia, the writing is on the wall.

I know you like your jokes The Destroyer, but please stop projecting and quoting walls of all things.

From your comments you have apparently studied academics but you don't seem to want to cite studies or statistics, but an article about a documentary on a thing that happened 6 years ago.
Hey, let me try this whole throw an article at a person instead of facts:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,777997,00.html

Dr Oberwittler posted:

"Such crimes are almost exclusively committed by a small, poorly integrated underclass. The 'honor killing' is in no way typical behavior for the Turkish community in Germany."

Woops, that's actually an article about the subject of honour killing in Germany and Even with the Spiegel trying their very hardest to spin the story in a way that makes it sell better they still couldn't hide how small a thing this is.

DerDestroyer posted:

I got no problem with the other Turks or foreigners in general but denying there is a problem on both ends is intellectually dishonest.

I love how you talk about intellectual dishonesty while trying to compare the endemic problem of racism and class discrimination in Germany to the killing of 40 people.

# ¿ Oct 5, 2011 06:10

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

az posted:

You yourself started up with "anecdotal evidence" which isn't worth anything.

.. No? My anecdotal evidence was in reply to this general supposition about the nature of all immigrants in Germany. And the point was that it was completely pointless, which is why I found an article about an actual study about it.
Which is in direct opposition to his supposition that multiculturalism is failing.

az posted:

Calling racism and class discrimination, in Germany, "endemic" in a wider context is both wrong and dishonest, considering a comparison to other nations such as, the USA, UK, France, Poland, Russia, etc.

I don't get you there champ. How does the comparison become dishonest when compared? Because they are so much more worse? I don't know well enough about how these things are except in the States but beating them is not a big achievement. What I was comparing them to was Scandinavia, where, except for Denmark, the situation is considerably less cut and dry.

az posted:

The entire subject matter is huge and could be argued until the end of time and multi-cultural problems are rarely one-sided or simple.

And because it is not a clear-cut and simple thing, with many variables, even if we were to debate it the data can be interpreted in many ways, yes. I agree there.

az posted:

Oh and about honor killings, a girl from my school got stabbed to death with 20 stabs in broad daylight, down the street from where I was. Because she wanted to live like a German girl. Declaring "a thing" "small" is disgusting when "it" is actual real people dying horrifying deaths. Even it if were only one.

Yes. I was thinking of bringing it up with The Destroyer but didn't. It is a serious thing, any killing, for whatever reason, is a tragedy.
But trying to make the defining characteristic of Turks honour killing when it's such a small and regrettable part of their culture isn't right. It's meant to otherize them, which doesn't help solve the problem.
And I do think that compared to the other problems that Turks face, honour killing isn't so big.

hankor posted:

What the gently caress are you even trying to imply here?

I'm not surprised you don't get it, because it's what it looks like when someone admits to not knowing enough to argue the subject further, while still saying we are talking about concrete things here and not ideology but still wants the specifics of the matter at hand.

hankor posted:

Here what the Verfassungsschutz has been up to for the last couple of years.
http://www.verfassungsschutz.de/de/publikationen/verfassungsschutzbericht/

Which you then provide. Thank you for that.

I'll read it later, I have to get the house ready for my host parents who are coming today to Iceland. We're making Sp�tzle for them.

Edit: Lessening the dickishness of my post.

Deceitful Penguin fucked around with this message at 14:24 on Oct 5, 2011

# ¿ Oct 5, 2011 12:04

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

flavor posted:

I'm not German, so no point to lump me in with that. Maybe to you I'm German by association.

Ok, sorry about that. Force of habit I guess.

flavor posted:

I meant in serious, meaningful and public discourse. You could also bring up how the moon landing was staged here, but that doesn't make it a serious issue. I'd need to see at least some credible accusations from potential victims, not some post from some guy pondering the possibility.

Ok. I concede the point that I lack strong data to support my case. My experience, again, arises mostly from Japan rather than Germany, which is what started this whole tangent, for me at least.

flavor posted:

I'd be seriously interested in all the places where police can get tickets from the police.

Here. Scandinavia. Speed cameras don't discriminate after all. Coppers rarely meet each other here and always when they do drive around they tend to slow down traffic with their annoying antic of actually driving under the speed limit.

flavor posted:

If they don't have that green color anymore, great. That looked awful.

You sir, obviously lack taste. That soothing green colour is what made watching Kommisar Rex a joy.

flavor posted:

No, we were discussing the subject in general and I haven't read the reports.

Ah? Right, you said, general discussion.

az posted:

It's dishonest when you seemingly single out Germany

In the Germany discussion thread? Am I reading you right? That I am singling Germany out in the Germany Discussion thread?

az posted:

and declare racism endemic, when compared to its neighbours or other large nations it's actually neither the worst, most or in fact, endemic.

Ok, I'll withdraw my comment about it "Endemic" and instead say that it seemed somewhat widespread. This, in fact, does nothing to change the fact that it exists. But if the word so irritates you, I'll withdraw it.

az posted:

There's this idea floating about that Germany still somehow compares to the third Reich, or is the beacon of white supremacy of modern times, both of which are absurd.

Really? This is news to me. I have always seen it as a nation sincerely trying to move away from that but still plagued with small groups of utter idiots. Although from my reading of Wallraff the image isn't exactly very pretty, either.

az posted:

Speaking of Scandinavia, the countries in question have had a considerably smaller number of immigration and smaller percentage of foreign rooted population. However you will find that there is a considerable amount of racism and white supremacy beneath the surface. The reaction a black man would receive in Hamburg is considerably different than say Oslo. Excactly because there are fewer "foreigners" and the native population isn't as used to them as for example Germans are.

Oh, hell yes. Racism is a very real problem and one that I, in what little way I can, struggle against every day. Derogatory usage of language is the least of it. My nan was a full blown loving racist. It made me livid sometimes listening to her. She didn't think of black people as people. She even insulted my cousins boyfriend at the dinner table.
That said, I certainly never saw the same level of economic disparity I did in Germany in Scandinavia or here. I never heard of immigrant kids being told to enter lesser quality schools, or see them so under-represented.

az posted:

People like Breivik are just the newest and scariest byproduct of culture struggle in Scandinavia, and it may just get worse before it gets better.

Oh gods yes. I am very afraid sometimes that we were too late in stamping down the extreme right wing. Now we have to reap the harvest of our inattention.
I just hope that nothing so terrible as Brevik will happen again.

az posted:

True on a matter of fact basis, but I personally despise the idea of carte-blanching either side in a problematic situation. I've heard people say to my face that "it's just what they do".

That is denying them agency, which I have also seen from both sides. Those people are murderers, as simple as that, and should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

az posted:

Ignoring that in the cultural struggle in Germany, both sides, or actually all sides (the state, policy, politics, politicians, german nationals, foreigners, immigrants, etc) play ball and have their faults is bad for discourse and will lead to nothing but finger pointing.

Yes. Through reasoned discussion on all sides things can be solved. But I've too often seen the bigoted side be unwilling to sit down and discuss things, rather than the other way around.
(Which makes it problematic when there are right-wing bigots on both sides)

And poo poo, the reason I write this is because I care about Germany. I love it, even though I dislike many parts of it. I wouldn't complain otherwise.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2011 23:42

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

xf86enodev posted:

Wow, are you serious? First of all, t�rkische Pizza, is what people who can't be bothered call Lahmacun. So, this is more a shining example for many Germans inability to adapt to modern times.

And what are you on about anyway? Are you angry with me because I like D�ner and that I'm unhappy about people using the word to degrade the Turkish?

He's angry because his friends just got arrested, show some sympathy man.

# ¿ Nov 21, 2011 13:47

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Riso posted:

Anti-americanism is not specificly German, it's all of Europe.

DerDestroyer posted:

And the world really...

Resource posted:

And some of america too.

Does anyone like the Yanks? :smith:

# ¿ Nov 14, 2012 19:23

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Orange Devil posted:

Plucky little Israel.

Mans posted:

Right wing parties in Europe love them, they've been emulating their economic policies for years now!

I should have clarified, anyone that isn't scum.

Still, to be at least a bit related, anything up with Ober-Schwaben? Haven't been keepin' in touch like I should.

# ¿ Nov 14, 2012 23:41

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Cjones posted:

If you also hate those things about America, will Germans treat you without condescension?

They may, but then you'll just join the group the Nordic countries look down on. :getin:

xf86enodev posted:

I like how more and more of BaW� turns green. Makes me hope for a distant future where Green Pirates rule the country.
Of course, Gr�ne would have to stop their pseudo-PC infighting first and Piraten would have to stop being insufferable pony-watching, women-hating nerds.

Ah, a man can dream.

But seriously, Gr�ne gaining traction especially after FDP's demise is an awesome thing. People finally start taking them seriously and more importantly they start taking themselves seriously.

What's Fischer up to nowadays anyway? I'm glad that fucker seems to be gone for good. I'd imagine he's gone pumping oil with Schr�der and Putin.
e: And his old friend Schily is mixing the drinks.

Man, it's good to hear the right ones gaining strength. Of course, you can argue about how the Piraten have one thing that's good and then haven't really thought about the rest but I've known plenty of them little "One Issue" parties that hammered their case until it was mainstream and accepted then faded back. (We had a Womens Party, for instance, lots of important women in it from all parties, was cool, went to meeting with my mom).
I wanna say that the Piraten will grow up but yeah, I dunno.

Cjones posted:

I have a few friends from Germany I keep in contact with-- awesome guys and the reason I'm relearning Deutsch. Planning on a re-union in Germany some time in a year or two, just want to try not to send out bad vibes over there.

My advice: Leave your gun at home and don't wear the American flag or a hawaiian, poo poo, I'm being condescending godda,

# ¿ Nov 15, 2012 01:18

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

xf86enodev posted:

sorry

No, I don't think listening to flavour can be forgiven, oh snap.

Mans posted:

Are German people condescending? All the Germans i know are extremely nice to the point where you think it's suspicious, always smiling and being helpful. Sure, you can say that as German middle class immigrants in Southern Europe they're rich as hell and that's why they're happy but even some who aren't that wealthy are still stupidly nice and polite. Maybe it's in the water or something.

I dunno, I mostly just know like, South-Germans but they were all nice as gently caress, didn't see much condescencion but then again they didn't really know my country existed before I came. (The half-year I was there they finally did in geology, funny that).

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

# ¿ Nov 15, 2012 02:30

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

flavor posted:

Hello, dear person who misspells my username, what's with the low content cheerleading? Do you have something to say about my reasoning or are you just annoyed that it doesn't follow some kind of "correct" line and therefore you post poo poo like you did without any substance?

Haha, no, it is you who misspell it, by using non-british spelling! (It was a joke dawg, relax, i forgot which it was)
And it's mostly just you bein' conservative, nothing deep. Sure I was only in the country for 7 months in single part but ehhhh, man. I don't know. It's just anecdote vs anecdote unless I wanna bother trawling through journals and poo poo and goddamn, there's a war going on and I have 4000 words to write in 4 hours.

Germany is mostly cool. Not about teh turks but I can't be arsed to drag up how they contrast the traditional turkish culture of the village and conflate it with Islam and how this leads to the artifical seperation of modernity and Islam in Germany or some studies on racism.

xf86enodev posted:

e2: Sorry I'm out, it's way past my time. gently caress timezones.

Ain't that the truth.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2012 04:32

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

snorch posted:

The problem is compounded by the fact that all stores close at 20.00 on weekdays.

This will never stop being hilarious to me. This and the sunday thing. Thank the gods for Tankstellen I guess.

# ¿ Feb 11, 2013 16:58

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

bronin posted:

Buy your poo poo before 20:00, so what. I always think of the people who have to work those jobs. Yeah I know they should have gotten another job/other jobs require workinghours like that as well. Blah blah blah. Years ago only one day of the week was open til 20:00 and Saturday was usually till 12:00. Guess what, society functioned quite well back then too. I hate this "I want this, and I want it right NOW" mentality.

What kind of sick nation expects me to wake up before 12 on a Saturday was my thought back then. Same with Sunday, what the hell.
I don't mind clubs closin' early 'cause then you can just go to some parties and poo poo but it's still hilarious that it's forbidden by law.

And cool on hatin' that, we should stock our large larders well in advance of course, with all possible wants or needs culinary. :thumbsup:

# ¿ Feb 12, 2013 14:35

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Grendels Dad posted:

Yeah, what an impossible demand, thinking in advance.

Pfff, hahaha. What an adorable counter-point. :allears:

Yeah, "Hmmm, do I plan on wanting chocolate on the 5th? Better write that down, don't want my personal failings to keep me away from having plenty of Lindor to munch on".
Admit it, it's just backwards and annoying. There's no particular reason why poo poo should be closed so early, aside from the point already raised about the treatment of workers, other than some inane appeal to tradition.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2013 18:38

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Grendels Dad posted:

Who's speaking about the 5th? What's supposed to be backwards about planning your shopping list even two days in advance? To the best of my knowledge that's pretty common among people over a certain age, so maybe you just outed yourself as a mid-20's bachelor who can't control his munchies and is pathetically dependent on instant gratification?

Haha, complaining about idiotic opening hours of everything from retailers to restaurants to night-clubs reveals me for the wretched shell of a man I am indeed. :allears:

Where I'm at now I shop where it's cheapest, which isn't open all day but it sure is better having the option, especially as I can't think of a single advantage to this poo poo, maybe you can tell me more about all the good thangs arising from everything closing down super-early and for days on end? I'll accept the limitation on your answer that you aren't very knowledgeable, just give me the best you got.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2013 19:00

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

ArchangeI posted:

Wow, we could complete the Energiewende if we could burn the strawman you created!

Strawmen on all sides here mang, would it be a real German discussion if there weren't? :cryingbierstein:

# ¿ Feb 13, 2013 00:26

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Landsknecht posted:

how Germany should actually encompass most of northern europe.

what

Gross-Deutschland is common enough a thing to hear in idiot circles but Scandinavia? Why?

# ¿ Feb 13, 2013 17:10

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Riso posted:

A Turkish politician is being stupid again, because he demands crucifixes to be removed from the court room because they are a threat to non-Christians and not worthy of a democracy. Nevermind that Turkey has a state church and the religious minorities are persecuted.

Anyway, he also says the NSU clearly had to have help from the state because how else would they have been able to kill eight Turks and a Greek with the same gun, right?

Oh casual contempt for the Turkish, how I missed you, almost as much as the Spaetzle and mousebags. :allears:

Tell me more about how this dude talking about how putting a religious symbol in a house of secular justice is totally cool because Turkey is mean to, uhh, Armenian Christians and how this means that such claims are "stupid" in a completely different, secular country.

# ¿ May 7, 2013 19:25

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

BabyFur Denny posted:

Feeling threatened by a bunch of wooden sticks on a wall is stupid.

Keep it coming dude. Next you tell me that the Turks (and they're always "Turks", even if they're 3rd generation immigrants to Germany and the closest they've come to Turkey is the local d�ner place) don't want to go to Gymnasium, they go to Haupt and Realschule because that's just the way it is, maaan.
And I'm sure Germans wouldn't understand the banning of symbols, nope, can't think of anything prominent involving those two things.

Riso posted:

You especially have no right to complain when your own country does in effect not grant religious freedom and practice.

Hahaha, I'm just gonna sit here a bit and laugh at your magnificent logic. Do you teach rhetoric? "No, see, they don't do it, therefore their points are invalid. There is no problem with our position because ~other people~ are worse."

Noahdraron posted:

Maybe we should hang an infant's foreskin and a picture of Mohammed right next to it to make it equal.

# ¿ May 7, 2013 21:59

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Humans Among Us posted:

Obviously you can only express casual contempt for your own fellow countrymen. And only if you have the same skin color. And are of the same gender. And the same age. Etc.
Is the politician that is criticized here not Turkish then? Because that was exactly what was said:
"A Turkish politician is being stupid again..." And how is one supposed to respond if they don't like what this guy is doing?

Haha, yeah maybe I was over-reading poo poo in that post about that dude complaining about the courthouses. Why was he in that again? Ohhhh, it was because a bunch of loving people were murdered by neo-nazis and weren't caught until way too late because, wait for it, the German police thought it was the the Turkish loving Mafia. Not a hint of racism in that, no sirree.

poo poo, I can see where that context might make me read racism in mere casual contempt. I apologize profoundly.

Humans Among Us posted:

If a German politician were to criticize a Turkish court for not having a crucifix or cross or whatever stupid religious symbol, wouldn't the Turkish similarly tell him to mind his own loving business? Or hey, maybe they would even consider that in the greater scheme of things this is so completely irrelevant that they wouldn't even respond.

Do you even get what his objection to the cross is? Like, do you understand the problem of having a religious symbol in a secular setting, as opposed to not having one?

Humans Among Us posted:

Regardless, please stop being PC fascists. Trying to read racism into every single loving thing people say really does make you the horrible person.

I'll try to hold my "PC" fascism in check then, if it makes me such a horrible man. That, of course, was the real problem here.

goethe42 posted:

Well, as long as people whose ancestors immigrated (more or less voluntarily) to the US 10 generations ago are still called "African" or "Chinese" Americans, I don't really see the problem with calling them "(Deutsch)Tuerken".
Especially because more than half of the 3 million "Turks"(1st, 2nd and 3rd generation) in Germany still hold a turkish passport.
I'm also not sure what it has to do with a turkish politician spouting conspiracy theories about the NSU being state-sponsored or complaining about religious symbols in the courtroom, when the islamic "hilal" (crescent moon)is quite prominent on the turkish flag.

I'm sorry you don't get why some dude might think that neo-nazis might be state sponsored. Not like the old Greenies paid a bunch of them to be informants or there being, say, a neo-nazi party that receives federal funding from the German government. I'll actually admit that part is shaky, possibly because of the whole, serial killing thing, as when you come to witness the trial of a bunch of people killed either because of the incompetence of the German police force or, if you're a dumb Turk, their complicity, (you can pick which you like) he might be focusing on the wrong things.

goethe42 posted:

Also, what's a mousebag?

Maultaschen. Mouthbags, mouse-bags. I find it punny.

# ¿ May 8, 2013 01:40

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Humans Among Us posted:

Penguin, I said what I said because you do this stupid crap in every freaking thread I see you post in. Therefore i felt compelled to say something about it.

What, seriously? Am I PC Fascisting it up in many threads? Colour me surprised.

Humans Among Us posted:

Yes so you attack the person that links to a relating article, put words in his mouth and label him racist, because...
Look i hate nazi's as much as the next guy, but you are very quick to jump at some forumsposter's throat for no good reason. So gently caress off mate.

Well, mostly for the extremely retarded chain of thought that Turkey shouldn't criticize Germany because "they have it worse". That isn't the loving point, having a bunch of crosses is backwards and dumb both in Germany and if they do it with Muslims symbols in Turkey. Tu quoque is a logical fallacy for a reason and using it is such an elementary failure of logic I legit laughed a bit. And as for not getting why a symbol might be takes badly, hearing that from Germans is just magic.

As for the "racist" thing, it took me a long time to see it, because Iceland isn't exactly multicultural central, but with the help of same latino bros in Germany I started seeing it and it sure as gently caress is there. Trying to ignore it will just keep the problem going. Germany has a real problem with prejuduce, as the fact that Merkel legit said that multiculturalism failed shows, as does even a cursory examination of German minorities. I mean, this is elementary stuff dude, which I find lame in my second home yanno.

# ¿ May 8, 2013 16:12

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Landsknecht posted:

Multikulti failing doesn't mean that Racism is alive and well, it means the having multiple cultures doesn't work, and there are very few countries in the world (outside of Canada really) where Multiculturalism has worked. Germany is the home of the German people and the culture here is German, and it will continue to be the dominant culture here barring any major change.

Leaving the Gastarbeiter to rot in enclaves for decades then doing some tiny smidgen of effort to try and integrate them, then declaring the whole thing a failure is her gently caress up, not one of multiculturalism in general. I answered this a bit more below if you want a less snappy answer.

Humans Among Us posted:

@Pengu

Fair enough i guess.

You said that the court case was about putting some Nazi scum on trial for a murder spree. I'm failing to see what this entire discussion has to do with the presence of crosses in court rooms, unless you're suggesting that having the cross in the courtroom somehow means that the judges might be biased in some sort of nationalistic religious way. I can accept that but it would be nice if you attempted to clear up these kind of things instead of just yelling at people or being passive aggressive about it. You think you're going to address problems concerning prejudice by being angry at people and being full of prejudice yourself.

Nnnoo, It's just something that some dude noticed and is backwards as heeelllll. I've never been in a German courtroom but if I was and saw a cross I'd comment on it too. No-one would care, but that's because I'm not a notable figure, like say, a foreign politician here because of a high-profile murder of Turks which is rife with controversy. Parts of which have to do with, get this, their ethnicity and maybe, just maybe, their religion. It might make someone sore, maybe over-sensitive. The complaint about the cross is nothing new however, it's been there for years if not decades. People mentioned it to me when I was there and I remember they didn't let me check out the muslim religious class for some reason. Why would I want to learn about this Jesus dude? Nigga was nailed to a stick, can't have been too cool.

Humans Among Us posted:

Not sure about that stuff about Merkel saying things about multiculturalism. Care to extrapolate?

What like, a serious answer? Aight, uhhh. I'll tell you your own history if you want, though this isn't my area of expertise. :confused:

The most obvious way to start would be to talk about the Gastarbeiter program and how it ended up being way different from what the W-German gov wanted. They wanted to be able to use a shitload of cheap transient labour and because they didn't really want them staying they didn't work hard to integrate the Gastarbeiter or offer them overmuch support. That's just facts. Now, the thing was that despite all this they ended up with a bunch of dudes staying. They tried the usual "Here's some money, now gently caress off back where you came from" (Japan did this recently too, with Brazilian-Japanese) but despite this there was still a shitload of Turks staying and bringing their families. They formed enclaves, which are a problem that needs a firm hand to mess up that status quo. Instead they got, ehhh, let's be generous and call it benign neglect.

Do you know what Germany did to integrate them, in the post 1973 period? Legitimate question here, I have no loving idea, I haven't heard of anything but again, not my history. I wanna skip forward to modern times anyway. I can speak for how on some fronts today, Germany is pretty baller about integration. My course for takin' the Zertifikat Deutsch was cool as hell, I wish Iceland had as good a system for teaching foreigners Icelandic. poo poo was practical, student oriented, with flexible hours and you paid what you could. (I could pay a lot).
That poo poo is too little, to loving late though, for a large portion of the enclaves. It helps people coming in now or those that want to move on up but does nothing to attack already entrenched problems. So pointing at how this work, good as it may be, hasn't solved a situation that has been stewing for decades in a few short years is phenomenally retarded. And the reasons why people form enclaves, ehh. That's a deep point that I'm gonna bow outta. It's a big question with a bunch of different opinions as to why. Suffice to say throwing up your hands and saying: "Fuckit! This poo poo don't work!" solves nothing.

Riso posted:

I uh, have to go.

Hahaha, that was a legit great exchange.

And please, not the WW2 thing. I'm not even German and I'm already sick as poo poo of that whole discussion.

# ¿ May 8, 2013 17:50

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

dreamin' posted:

But because we then had 8 years of SPD/Green government all the good Germans can now rightfully claim "multikulti" doesn't work. After all, what are 40 years of ignorance and discrimination against 8 years of total multikulti?

Yeah, thanks for bringing in facts, I picked up the rough idea of the history from a few conversations over raki but good to know it jived with what I remember.

# ¿ May 9, 2013 14:16

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Kurtofan posted:

Ah thanks, it's pretty hilarious to me since Inspector Derrick was on France 3 (a French public channel) every goddamn afternoon since loving forever (my grandmas loved to watch it was on )

It was relegated to late night air time since a year or so and recently they announced they're stopping the reruns.

Inspector Derrick is kind of famous in France for being a very sleep inducing tv show.

Yeah, the show was also shown in Iceland for years and my old man and older folks really loved it. I'll just repeat to you you what I said to him: "Derrick being a Nazi doesn't matter the least bit to me, Kommissar Rex was always the best German copper anyway. :colbert:

Baronjutter posted:

But it's easier to just stick them in ghettos as 2nd class citizens then send them off to another country if they aren't "integrating" well enough.

It was really amazing how the first few months I was in Germany I didn't really notice it all. Coming from lily white Iceland didn't help of course. It wasn't until the Latino exchange students started talking about it with the exchange program people and asking about it that it became painfully obvious just how poo poo some peeps had it. Being in the South tho (Schwabenland, yo) even looking out for it poo poo was pasty as hell.

For my part, my experience with Turkish-Germans are all good. Our neighbours were that and they were rad, lent me a bike they weren't using and when I went to Japan the missus made me snacks. :3:

# ¿ May 11, 2013 17:23

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

Noahdraron posted:

I heard Kommissar Rex was a member of the woofen SS

Neeeeuuuuuuuuuu!!!! :negative:

Now I must throw all my idols and drawings on pyre.

Noahdraron posted:

I was just joking ok?

Poes Law dawg. I mean, literal PC fascism all up in here, no-one gonna disbelieve what you say.

flavor posted:

Okay, countries don't exist, cultures doesn't exist and languages probably also don't exist, and I hate every little thing they do but I still want to immigrate because...

For a moment I thought you were gonna come out as Bavarian, what with the whole "Wir sind unseren eigenes Land!" and whatnot. And if you wanna say a Swabian dude doesn't have more in common with an Austrian than, say, Schleswig-Holstein I don't know what to tell you. Modern German is an artificially constructed language similar to, beh, one of the dialects, forget which one, while the country itself is an amalgamation of various counties, principalities, furstdoms and whatevers, united only 'cause of politics. And hell, you don't have to go far back when that meant something different.

And people immigrate for the money. For fucks sake, people immigrate to the US, you think they wouldn't go for Germany, no matter the flaws? You think they should be happy you're letting them in at all? Be serious.

flavor posted:

It's understandable that people argue in self-serving ways, but a lot of the garbage that got posted about the country and its culture not really existing or being new and a mixture etc. would also apply to most other major countries.

Wow, it's like that in many other countries? Good thing we aren't in a thread, say, solely defined by it's discussion of a certain country but instead all of the major ones. Then you'd look a bit like an idiot for criticizing the discussion as overly specific instead of being flawed or wrong somehow. And if we really wanna go down that road, yeah countries, nations, all kinds of poo poo like that is pretty drat arbitrary most of the time.

# ¿ May 12, 2013 03:47

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

flavor posted:

What a weird rant. An artificially constructed language is something like Esperanto.

Without even digging too deep, I guess Switzerland (four languages!), Belgium (two), Spain (at least three), the UK, Italy etc. all do not exist either, because they either don't have their own languages or their languages are just as "artificially constructed" as German is.

What?

Your linguistic idiocy aside, the point is yes, national identity and the concept of the nation state is a pretty recent and arbitrary concept. This isn't up for debate. You'd have to be incredibly dense not to know this, seeing as you could learn this through linguistics, civics, political science, hell, almost any social science, which all go into how fluid such an identity is, but good job on missing that I guess. The answer to my question, which was a bit too complex for you I guess, is that the the two Germans in opposite sides of the country have more in common with their neighbours in the nearby countries than their fellow German on the opposite side of the country.

flavor posted:

What are you trying to say exactly? That they are coming for the money or not? And that they shouldn't be happy?

What's the point of immigrating to a place that doesn't make you happy or give you the expectation that you're better off than before?

What the gently caress does getting money have to do with being happy? Do you still live in your moms basement and spend all your money on games, weed and booze? In the adult world, we work because we need money to live, to provide for our families, to try and make a better life for our children, pay our loans and bills, for which we are prepared to make sacrifices, including moving halfway across a continent that wants you gone once they've gotten what they wanted from you and when you rightly earn the right to stay there treats you like poo poo. The fact that they come to Germany isn't necessarily a point in favour of Germany so much as it is a point against Turkey. Germany has treated them like poo poo and they have every right to be angry and complain. The onus is on the one

flavor posted:

Well, if it's all just the same poo poo, man, then I don't know, man, why people want to deal with that poo poo, man, instead of just staying where they are, man.

Are you even capable of arguing in good faith? Are you being deliberately obtuse or "Arguing in self-serving ways" because that's what "everyone" does?

Yea, there are places more lovely economically than Germany. This is due to a little thing called "neo-colonialism" and "neo-liberalism" that perpetuates systematic inequity across the entire world. You may have heard of this, it's the reason why the West is stupidly overpaid in everything they do while the rest works for peanuts to sustain our standard of living. If you haven't been living under a rock you may have heard of it.

flavor posted:

In any event, even in a thread about Germany specifically, it's still okay to compare Germany to other countries. You've just done that with the US.

Ahh good, forums poster flavour has granted that comparing countries to one another is allowed. Maybe we can allow it when its relevant or not empty weasel words about "some countries" or try to maintain that "other countries do it too" is a point that shouldn't be used outside of kindergarden and only then one for the developmentally differently abled.
The point wasn't "Don't compare countries", it was that your point was so badly made that, aside from being wrong, if I didn't recognize you as a regular I'd have thought it a drive-by-shitpost.

Kurtofan posted:

If it reassures you guy people in France also complain about Kebab

Do you want us to start about how former colonials in France are treated? That might even cheer up the thread because by gawd, is that a mess of things.

# ¿ May 13, 2013 18:11

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 15:20

Deceitful Penguin: Feb 16, 2011

flavor posted:

If you would care to repost what you had to say without the abuse, then I'll reply to your points. Otherwise it would take too much of my time to dig for the arguments within it.

Eh. I was trying to hide the fact that I could barely tell if you made points at all, so I descended to the old standby of vitriol and slander, which are the primary method of debate in Iceland. Your post did warrant a response, simply not one that was worth more than a slight amount of editing to not repeat the insults.

Looking at it again, the points were: National identity is fluid and therefore trying to talk about people not adapting can just as easily be framed as the culture, i.e. goverment/people/whatever not adapting to them and that people immigrate despite bad conditions due to simple economics.
Eh.

VVVVV

Ahhh, do they now? I wonder when my country becomes like that, so far I've never heard anyone complain about too many foreign restaurants, maybe because Icelandic food is so terrible.
Too bad there ain't a France thread though, would make an interesting read.

Deceitful Penguin fucked around with this message at 01:08 on May 14, 2013

# ¿ May 14, 2013 00:25

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Debate & Discussion > Germany Thread: KEIN FASCHISMUS LEUDE BIDDE