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Nomex posted:The easiest way would be to get a large 220v circuit and run it through a transformer. If you could get a 220v 200a service you could step it up to 440v 100a (minus transformer losses). This doesn't really fix the issue at all though, does it? You've still got the same (actually slightly less) usable power, so unless there is a much faster charger available that will run on a 440V 100A circuit but would not run on 220V 200A (which would be as big as the service for an entire house normally) it wouldn't do much. Like I mentioned in the last thread, charging is going to be a big problem to solve. Presumably most developments in EV range will come from increasing the kWh capacity of the onboard battery, but without an increase in kW available at the home, that just leads to proportionally longer charge times. Of course, counter-argument to that - if you have a fuel tank with 200-300 miles of range, you don't refuel daily...
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Jan 18, 2012 23:45
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Pvt Dancer posted:I think we'll have start running out of oil before we see major advancement anyway. This is more true than anyone wants to admit. I'm glad companies are trying to push for it now because it will make that transition less painful when it happens, but people aren't going to move away from something they have been using for a century until it becomes extremely painful to keep using.
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Jan 19, 2012 18:23
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Brigdh posted:The problem is while gas stores a lot more energy, our current engine technology cannot extract all of it. On average, engines are only about 30% efficient. Electric drive ends up being something like 80% efficient, thus you can get farther with less input energy on electric over gas. Yeah, you don't need nearly as much actual energy to move the electric car; this is why (battery technology aside) they are so desirable from an energy-conservation standpoint. If you could somehow get the same amount of energy that a 14-gallon gas tank has, into an otherwise-normal electric car, you probably wouldn't need to recharge for weeks.
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Jan 20, 2012 18:42
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Phone posted:I saw a Leaf on the road today and it looks good. The taillights are a bit weird, though. I've actually seen probably four or five different Leafs (leaves?  ) on the road at this point, maybe even more than that. Only a couple Volts.
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Jan 22, 2012 05:43
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Two words: Smart gearbox. That thing is terrible.
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Jan 23, 2012 09:03
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Atasi posted:Condo boards, the only thing worse than HOAs. No poo poo. At least in AZ, while we have HOAs everywhere, they do pass the occasional sensible law (it's actually impossible for an HOA to stop you from installing solar panels, for example). The best part is since this isn't a HV charger, it really is drawing the same amount of power a block heater could draw, and one could argue that by prewarming the engine, they are in fact subsidizing the fuel use of other cars 
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Jan 27, 2012 20:13
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davebo posted:It'd be funnier if the car was just painted lime green instead of implying it's so eco-friendly. About two days after I saw that image, I saw a yellow Sky with FFFF00 running around town.
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Feb 24, 2012 22:17
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Your average hobby-grade R/C car will automatically cut off battery drain when you run it too low for safety, why the hell doesn't the Tesla?
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Feb 25, 2012 00:38
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If the extension cord is to blame, why did the charger and/or car not throw an alert? Again, not that hard to make some circuitry that says "charge current should be X right now but is <X by more than acceptable margins, turn on a big red light and beep annoyingly"
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Feb 26, 2012 00:59
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It has to be conductive brake fluid, amirite?
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Mar 2, 2012 02:52
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roomforthetuna posted:A hybrid doesn't need its batteries to have a really good capacity. Or has an all-electric Prius been out for a decade? No, but it does need them to work - the Prius CVT requires the electric motor to lock up in order for the gas engine to be able to put power down.
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Dec 13, 2012 08:02
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They scripted a bit (shocking!) in which they push an "out of charge" Roadster back into the garage.
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Feb 14, 2013 20:47
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ozmunkeh posted:That's hilarious. In an effort to prove a journalist wrong about an article in which he had issues with their car, nine identical cars attempt to make the same completely unremarkable journey. At the first charging station one of them breaks enough that it's stranded for an hour while engineers push out updated firmware. I'd argue it's more truthful than anything Broder did, though. Both sides look weak in this whole thing but I still think he comes out worse since he doesn't really have any explanation for why the chargers were disconnected when they were.
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Feb 18, 2013 21:35
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Coredump posted:People can't get over the whole range stigma with electric cars. Honestly 120 mile range should be more than enough to make an electric vehicle capable of meeting a LARGE portion of people's driving need 90 to 95% of the time. For the other times when the 120 mile range won't work for these people then it's easy to have another car available to fill in the gap. So what one of the Model S has problems getting across the country? That's not what an ev was designed to do. EV's are designed to meeting a large chunk of the population's driving needs MOST of the time with as little maintenance as possible while being better for the environment. And frankly, the Leaf, the roadster, and Model S all have the range to accomplish that mission. I will absolutely agree with the idea that 120 miles of range should be more than enough for a majority of drivers a majority of the time. However, the Leaf's official rated range is only 73 miles per the EPA - not even 2/3 of that. The worst-case scenario for a new Leaf can result in as little as ~60 miles of range (winter, stop and go, heater on) and that's before you even account for battery degradation... which would leave me rolling home with <10mi of range every night without running a single errand. 120 miles of range, however, gives me headroom for both any number of errands as well as blasting the A/C as needed and still coming home with plenty of battery to spare, even after the battery degrades. Which brings up another point - if you come home with that battery near-zero every day, you're wearing it out far more than if you were able to get everything done in half the charge.
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Feb 19, 2013 22:42
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Yeah - if I could pay X for the car (at a rate comparable or less than an equivalent gasoline car), and pay Y per month for the battery forever (including exchange / repair as needed), I would jump on it in a heartbeat as long as the battery cost + electrical cost came out to less than my typical fuel cost in a month.
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Feb 27, 2013 01:53
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roomforthetuna posted:But you know it won't (at least not the way costs are now) because the batteries for a Leaf, for example, cost $15000 and in a hot climate will almost certainly suck balls after about 5 years. So that'll come to about $250 a month even before the electricity costs come in. Given that I know a guy here in Phoenix who dumped his Leaf within the first year due to already seeing a reduction in battery life, yeah. It's going to be a bit before the economics on that make sense, but I think a lot of it will depend on how valuable the remainder of the battery is to the company in a lease arrangement like that. I think the big difference between car batteries and laptops is the charge used. A laptop (or phone etc) will use nearly 100% of the capacity - full charge every time, discharge down to lowest safe levels before shutting off. Hybrid / electric car batteries never charge to true 100%, and will typically stop supplying power well before the minimum safe level. In other words, a battery might be rated for 50 kWh from full charge to full discharge, but only ever cycle through 25 kWh.
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Feb 27, 2013 07:05
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I don't talk to him that often, he's one of my dad's friends - I think it was either one or two bars already gone.
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Feb 27, 2013 19:26
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What kind of mileage limits are allowed in the lease? Are there any stipulations on battery condition when the car is returned?
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Feb 28, 2013 17:42
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Yeah I think you might know him, last I heard he was autocrossing a NC Miata. Elephanthead: I did the math and lease price + expected electrical consumption (taking advantage of the cheap night-time charging rates) on a Leaf S is surprisingly close to fuel + maintenance on my goddamn Ranger, which has the cheapest parts I've ever seen on a car. It's a tempting proposition, aside from the fact that any degradation like many AZ Leaf owners have seen would mean I couldn't actually commute in it after 24 months.
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Feb 28, 2013 22:18
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DJ Commie posted:Depends on the metric, if its actually tied to a linear decrease in capacity (percentage per bar), and tons of other things. It is supposed to be linear, as far as I know. Elephanthead: I was basing that on not being able to charge at work. If I could charge at work then range anxiety isn't remotely an issue either direction, even with serious degradation of the battery.
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Mar 1, 2013 20:46
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Bumping this because that $199/mo lease has me seriously looking at the Leaf - does anyone have any suggestions on how best to charge an electric car in a driveway? I'm not planning on garaging it if I get it, and I need to figure out if I either need to somehow get HOA / wife approval for a charging station on the outside of the house, or if I can just pass the charge cord under the garage door and close it with the charge station just inside the garage door.
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Mar 5, 2013 20:38
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Thwomp posted:My parents do pretty much what you said with their Volt. duz posted:That's what I do when I'm too lazy to pull it in the garage. The cord is rather long so it's fine. I'm using the included 110v charger. Thanks guys; sounds like I'll be going for a Clipper Creek LCS-25 wired up just inside of my garage door, then, and just pop the garage door / pass the charge cable under it / close the garage door. Got a friend/coworker/electrician coming out later in the week to give me an estimate for how much it's going to actually cost to run the circuit.
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Mar 6, 2013 00:53
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Test drove a 2013 Leaf SL tonight. It wasn't a great sign that the dealer didn't even know if any were charged, and seemed to not even know how to get the one out of the showroom moving initially. Only had 10 miles on it at the start of the test drive, even. Really does drive nicely enough, but the only thing that was worrying was that when I kicked the A/C on and the estimated range cut from 83 miles to 63 miles in an instant. That's tight enough that if they don't install any charge station of any sort at work (there's not even a 120V plug on the outside right now) I might not be able to make the round trip between work and home, especially once the battery ages. Of course, I don't have any idea when / how they last charged it up so who knows. Tempting but I still need to iron things out on that range concern.
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Mar 6, 2013 05:46
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Elephanthead posted:Calculus, Missed this. Yeah, I'm not getting a Leaf until there's any ability to charge at work, and right now there's no outlets of any sort on the outside of the building (or if there are, they're in high traffic areas and I'd get written up for causing a tripping hazard). The lighting circuits are on a timer so the poles aren't live. I've been yakking with the guy in charge of actually operating the building and while it's not a trivial amount of work, it's something at least he's willing to do - if someone actually has a need. So we're at a chicken/egg scenario and the reason I haven't gone ahead and snagged a Leaf to push the issue is I know there's a significant chance someone higher up will get all stupid and decide to block it.
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Mar 29, 2013 15:16
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If he was someone I only talked to once in a rare while I'd think about that, but I worked for him for a few years and we've got a good enough relationship that he knows me better than that 
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Mar 29, 2013 18:35
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Madurai posted:So... quasi-leasing? The funny thing is, a real lease lets you take advantage of the tax deduction too - it just comes off the front-end so it lowers your actual payments, rather than being a lump sum that you apply back to 'lower' your payments as an accounting trick. Unrelated but interesting, Fiat is including 12 days of rental cars at Enterprise for 500e owners, and I had no idea they were trying to sneak that thing in at $16k (after credits) which should make it a seriously compelling option. Longer range than a Leaf, plus a thermally managed battery so probably better longevity on the battery. Too bad there's no way I'm getting much of a car seat in the back of the 500.
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Apr 3, 2013 07:56
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Yeah, the dealer that I test-drove the Leaf at didn't even bother keeping the one that was actually out on the lot charged, and had to figure out how to get their showroom model a) in drive b) out of the showroom in order to test drive it. It's not as easy of a sale as a gas car (you have to deal with charging at home, possibly at work, etc) and you as a dealer have basically zero maintenance dollars coming back in from the sale. Hell, for the Leaf at least right now, they don't even really want the used ones back because people are skittish about the battery lifetime, especially in hot climates.
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Apr 11, 2013 15:43
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Interesting, if it goes through: possible change of the federal incentive from a $7500 tax credit to a $10k rebate at time of sale. This would definitely swing me over heavily into the Volt, Focus Electric, or RAV4 Electric since those are the only ones I'd be willing to own longer-term. Though with another $2500 off the capitalized cost, a leased Leaf would be ridiculously cheap...
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Apr 14, 2013 01:59
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angryrobots posted:
Define fast. If we're talking about level 2 equipment, which will charge an EV in under 8 hours, yes most buyers will have one - but it's roughly equivalent to the electrical draw of a stove. If you mean the fast level 3 chargers that will recharge a car in under an hour, those aren't even compatible with any home service yet.
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Apr 14, 2013 17:21
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Absolutely agreed. I also think that the average EV buyer tends to be far more in tune with their electricity costs than the average person, especially when charging off peak can be 30 to 50 percent cheaper. If/when I get my EV I would never charge on peak unless absolutely necessary.
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Apr 14, 2013 23:38
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Suqit posted:You could always get a plug in hybrid. Part of the perk of an EV in AZ is you get a HOV plate - but only pure electrics qualify for it. PHEVs don't. I'd say the exception is the Karma, but then today I saw a blue plate on a ~25 year old Corolla, so clearly there's not much stopping people from putting them on cars illegally.
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May 14, 2013 04:47
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The Locator posted:Economically it doesn't make any sense at all. I get 40mpg in my Fiesta commuting, and it's only a $15k car. I ran the numbers on all sorts of hybrids when I got the Fiesta. For me, the economics work out on the cheap EVs because the lease payment on a Leaf (or the Fiat 500e, in CA at least) is almost exactly what I spend in gas commuting in the Ranger. I end up spending a bit more total after accounting for more expensive insurance and the increase in electric bill, but I'd say it's worth it to not be driving a 15-year-old Ranger. Normally I'd be anti-lease but it's not like the gas is worth anything after I burn it either. My whole concern is range longevity - the Leaf has those very significant battery lifespan issues here in AZ and even though they now have defined the warranty as effectively at least 75% capacity, that could mean that by the end of my lease I'm having to ignore the HOV lane and putter along at slow speeds to make it home. The Locator posted:There are a number of plates out there from the days of the 'alternative fuel' vehicle fiasco (where people were taking a $5k tax credit to put LNG into their Excursions and then driving them in the HOV lane on regular gas), and those are still legal until the vehicles eventually die. I don't doubt that there are some illegally plated cars though as well. Yeah but there's no way that Corolla was sold under that debacle - I remember that, it started a couple years after we got our '97 Suburban and I think my parents seriously considered replacing it with a new one under the program and either breaking even or coming out ahead. The Corolla with blue plates was, at newest, a '92.
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May 14, 2013 18:05
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I was getting $0 down / $290/mo lease pricing on 15k miles per year for a Leaf, including sales tax. Accounting for the $25/mo I'd spend in electricity (probably less since I won't actually buy one without having a charger at work, but I'm not accounting for the free electricity there) my total cost to drive a Leaf for 3 years / 45k miles is $11,340, and my out of pocket cost to get into the car is just the cost of getting the charger installed at home. I've got that pegged as $1500 though there's now cheaper chargers on the market than what I was accounting for. Yes, keeping a high-efficiency gasser for a long time is the cheaper option, but in order to get the monthly payment + gas down to the same as where it would be for the Leaf, I'd have to make a significant down payment. Whereas with the Leaf (or the 500e, or maybe the Spark EV) I can turn a total cashflow very similar to what I'm paying to run my Ranger after accounting for its fuel + oil changes + other broken poo poo, into a new car. The real win would be to keep the Leaf long-term, but with the battery longevity issues there's no way I would do that. A lease lets that be someone else's problem. I could maybe see keeping a Spark EV or 500e long-term, but the 500e isn't available outside of CA and there's no pricing on the Spark yet (and no long-term battery info either). Focus Electric just costs too much. IOwnCalculus fucked around with this message at 20:09 on May 22, 2013 |
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May 22, 2013 20:07
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Speak of the devil, the Spark just got pricing of under $28k before incentives - or a cool $19,995 after:Autoblog posted:The Nissan Leaf, the Fiat 500e and now the 2014 Chevy Spark EV 1LT. Three different electric hatchbacks that can all be had for the same low lease price: $199 per month. The Spark even has the same appealing $999 down payment as the Fiat (the Leaf's is $1,999) and both require 36-month leases, so the cost of these two city runabouts is identical, at least at the base level. The one potential hiccup: Chevy says it's a "low mileage lease," and you'll pay 25 cents a mile for each mile over 12,000 per year. Considering these are urban-minded vehicles with limited ranges, however, that doesn't seem like as pressing an issue. For what it's worth, the gas Spark they compare it to in price is the 1LS - the 1LT base price is $13,785, so this is closer to a $6000 uptick than $8000.
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May 23, 2013 08:00
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In my case I could walk in and test drive the Leaf, but I wouldn't recommend it. As it was they only had one charged and the guys there were seemingly at a loss as to how to get it out of the showroom. An appointment would be a better idea.
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Jun 4, 2013 03:16
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MPGe shouldn't be impacted on when you charge - the whole point of MPGe is that it's the miles the car gets out of an amount of stored electricity that is equivalent to the same amount of energy made by burning one gallon of gasoline. Are you referring to a 1/4 tank as in a quarter of the gasoline tank (in which case you'll never see 100MPG on that) or 60MPGe with 1/4 of the battery charge left? It's also a nice reminder as to why electric cars are great, and yet their biggest failing. Turning electricity into motion is far more efficient than turning gasoline into motion - almost all electrics get somewhere in the vicinity of 100 miles on the equivalent of a gallon of gas. The problem is that the battery packs in everything south of a Tesla Model S or a RAV4 EV are only about the equivalent of three quarters of a gallon (or less).
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Jun 4, 2013 23:48
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Yeah in that case it's either reporting strictly your miles per gallon of gasoline consumed (so not counting any electricity consumed) or it's mixing your MPGe and your MPG together for an average number.
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Jun 5, 2013 00:30
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The big fear of charging a battery quickly is heat. If Tesla is actively cooling the battery pack during charging, they can probably charge at higher currents with less wear and tear than you would normally see.
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Jun 5, 2013 23:47
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Suqit posted:The Volt recommends premium fuel for this reason. The Fusion Energi will cycle the engine at predetermined intervals to avoid this problem as well as to insure the engine is getting lubricated. Premium doesn't actually last any longer than regular; it needs premium due to the design of the engine requiring greater knock-resistance in the fuel. Chevy mitigates it to an extent with a very tightly sealed fuel system, but even then I think if it goes near a year without refueling, it will start running the engine to empty the tank.
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Jun 18, 2013 21:58
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Oddly enough, I saw a Model S the other day - in Flagstaff, AZ. Either they had it trucked up there, or the long-range performance is especially impressive, even when making a ~5000 foot climb from Phoenix to Flagstaff on I17. Could probably go a pretty long way back down with a full battery thanks to regen, though!
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Jun 18, 2013 22:45
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