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roomforthetuna posted:Or rather, people will just pay it because people are terrible at acting upon deferred costs, so the peak price will just keep on going up, and the electric companies will laugh all the way to the bank because no way are they spending all that lovely money on actually improving their infrastructure. The cap on this rising price will be when the apparent running cost of EVs become sufficiently impractical that nobody buys them any more.
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# ? Apr 13, 2013 22:36 |
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# ? May 15, 2024 22:28 |
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Godholio posted:If you live out of gas stations on a road trip you're throwing money away. I hit at least one grocery store every day when I'm on the road. The only thing cheaper at the stop and robs I stop at are those energy drinks. Best thing for a road trip is those AZ ice teas 12 packs. God drat I love me some ice tea and lemonade.
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# ? Apr 13, 2013 22:42 |
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Ford has an app already that you can use to have your car charge during off peak hours. And with PHEV you still have gas as a backup. It's not as difficult as y'all are making it out to be.
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# ? Apr 13, 2013 22:55 |
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Suqit posted:Ford has an app already that you can use to have your car charge during off peak hours. And with PHEV you still have gas as a backup. Did you get your car yet? Or have you prewired your home yet? How did that go?
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# ? Apr 13, 2013 23:07 |
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InterceptorV8 posted:Did you get your car yet? Or have you prewired your home yet? How did that go? I still don't have a build date or a VIN. Haven't wired the house up yet. Our utility has a 50% rebate on wiring and a charger but the funds are depleted right now. I'm gonna try to hold out for when that program is back up.
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# ? Apr 13, 2013 23:17 |
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Suqit posted:Ford has an app already that you can use to have your car charge during off peak hours. And with PHEV you still have gas as a backup. Nissan too, well their app just has a one off timer, you have to use the in-car to set up a regular schedual.
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 00:08 |
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Interesting, if it goes through: possible change of the federal incentive from a $7500 tax credit to a $10k rebate at time of sale. This would definitely swing me over heavily into the Volt, Focus Electric, or RAV4 Electric since those are the only ones I'd be willing to own longer-term. Though with another $2500 off the capitalized cost, a leased Leaf would be ridiculously cheap...
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 01:59 |
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grover posted:Even invoice is $47800 on those so something was definitely up; someone took an $18k loss on that, and I'm guessing most of it was the california taxpayer. The point was that no one is paying $48K for these he just walked into a dealer and bought one this way, so the payback is way faster (if that's what you're after). They were compliance cars and Toyota needs to get rid of them somehow. My co-worker mentioned that the price dropped $500 more two weeks after he bought.
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 03:38 |
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Elephanthead posted:So you buy gas in gallon jugs and pour them in? Do you have a veggie burner? This is about "fueling the car" not your goon gut. That's funny, you said it was useless to have charging stations at stores. gently caress off.
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 04:28 |
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grover posted:I've been saying that for years. I ran detailed calculations in a D&D thread a few years ago and concluded that although the impact on US power production is a rather small % (occurring mostly post-peak), the real issue will be impact to the residential grid, which will see loads more than double when EV cars become ubiquitous. The worst time will be the late afternoon/early evening when everyone gets home and immediately plugs their cars in so they can drive somewhere else. roomforthetuna posted:Or rather, people will just pay it because people are terrible at acting upon deferred costs, so the peak price will just keep on going up, and the electric companies will laugh all the way to the bank because no way are they spending all that lovely money on actually improving their infrastructure. The cap on this rising price will be when the apparent running cost of EVs become sufficiently impractical that nobody buys them any more. grover posted:Transformers are expensive, and normally last many decades. Rather than pre-emptively replace them to avoid unplanned customer outages, it's much cheaper to just wait until they fail to probably eke a few more years of service out of them, and then replace them only after they blow up. Sure, customers may be without power for a couple days, but a couple days of power bill is negligible in the scheme of things, so it's no big deal. For the pocos, at least. Would suck to be you and your neighbors stuck with electric cars you can't charge, though. Why should the utility subsidize what is essentially inefficient bad behavior? If consumers want to go full bore for two hours a day and expect the POCO to keep up, well fine but it is going to cost you.
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 13:22 |
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angryrobots posted:No, the real cure is getting people to think about their usage. If you were living in BFE and only had a generator for power, you couldn't run every appliance in your home at the same time. Doing that is a luxury, and if that's what you want to do, it costs the POCO. Most utilities do not generate the power that they sell, so they have a power bill too, and they definitely do have to pay a demand surcharge. And the estimated bill thing comes because that's how a lot of pocos work- they bill in advance. They don't bill customers for electricity used, they bill electricity for what they estimate the consumer will use in the next month, adjusted by the measured consumption from the previous month. Ends up wildly over/under estimating for some people and leading others to make horrible false assumptions about their electrical use. grover fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Apr 14, 2013 |
# ? Apr 14, 2013 13:52 |
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Some utilities may undersize more than they should (we don't) and that's not right. But either way, it is economically impossible to build a system that is capable for all (or even most) of its consumers to pull the full rated load of their service at the same time. Even if you somehow built a system this way, you'd probably be in the red just on line losses from the massive underutilized transformers. And the problem isn't EV coming online, it's electric water heaters, clothes dryers, HVAC, plasma TVs, etc. People are just going to have to be more aware about HOW and WHEN they use electricity. That is a separate issue from an undersized service and/or transformer that can cause interruption of regular service in normal conditions. edit: I know some utilities estimate. We don't, never have, never will. Yet I still hear about it, not because the consumer had service at some point with another POCO, but because they genuinely do not understand how they are billed for electricity usage. They honestly believe that we pull a number out of thin air and then bill them for it. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Apr 14, 2013 |
# ? Apr 14, 2013 14:16 |
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angryrobots posted:But either way, it is economically impossible to build a system that is capable for all (or even most) of its consumers to pull the full rated load of their service at the same time. Even if you somehow built a system this way, you'd probably be in the red just on line losses from the massive underutilized transformers. And the problem isn't EV coming online, it's electric water heaters, clothes dryers, HVAC, plasma TVs, etc. People are just going to have to be more aware about HOW and WHEN they use electricity. the EIA's electricity numbers: code:
And yes, you're right- lines, breakers and switchgear are going to need to be upgraded, too. Which is why it's so frustrating to see so little concern coming from within the utility industry. When you do, please bury the lines this time so we don't lose power for a week+ every time a big storm hits. TIA! grover fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Apr 14, 2013 |
# ? Apr 14, 2013 14:48 |
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Overhead lines are a lot easier to upgrade! Not to mention quite reliable until people plant trees all around them and then bitch when you try to cut right of way....but I digress. I think they (the ones who make the decisions) are concerned about it, it's just a question of how much/when to make changes. Pile a bunch of money into upgrades that look good on paper, and if you don't hit it on the head (under or over upgraded) and the utility can lose its rear end. How much of a blanket rate hike do you really think people will accept? The 'smart meter' is really the only way to make it fair for everyone. Of course everyone uses energy when they get home from work and that is unavoidable....but you could wait to dry clothes, install a digital programmable thermostat (EVERYONE needs one of these), not leave every light in the house on, and think about energy use when buying new appliances.....and when buying a house. Two adults and two children don't need a 3500 sq foot McMansion with 2+ low SEER HVAC units, but if that is what you must have, then it is going to cost you dearly for energy. The problem is people who are incredibly wasteful without even realizing it. That is where all the existing power capacity is going. I'm a big proponent of gas for the high demand appliances (if we're ignoring the political minefield of fracking and just talking about what is efficient). Do you suspect that everyone, or most, will have fast chargers installed?
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 16:29 |
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angryrobots posted:
Define fast. If we're talking about level 2 equipment, which will charge an EV in under 8 hours, yes most buyers will have one - but it's roughly equivalent to the electrical draw of a stove. If you mean the fast level 3 chargers that will recharge a car in under an hour, those aren't even compatible with any home service yet.
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 17:21 |
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IOwnCalculus posted:Define fast. If we're talking about level 2 equipment, which will charge an EV in under 8 hours, yes most buyers will have one - but it's roughly equivalent to the electrical draw of a stove. If you mean the fast level 3 chargers that will recharge a car in under an hour, those aren't even compatible with any home service yet. As EV batteries get higher in capacity, chargers will have to charge faster as well. You might be able to charge a PHEV Prius with a few miles EV range overnight with a 15A plug, but it would take 28 hours to charge a RAV4 EV with a 1500W charger, and I suspect capacities will soon get to the point where a 30A/240V is as slow a charger as you can get away with and a good % people going through the effort of having a new charger circuit installed will go with as big a charger as they can get away with. Get home at 5 and little jimmy has to be at soccer practice by 6, you know! grover fucked around with this message at 17:43 on Apr 14, 2013 |
# ? Apr 14, 2013 17:35 |
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Maybe the technology will increase such that you could have two batteries, and somehow swap them daily, letting the used one have 24 hrs to recharge. Or have a charging station with built in storage capacity that could discharge into your mobile car battery? If the demand is for higher capacity batteries, then somehow the charging needs to be spread out over time and not continually compressed into the static amount of time between daily commutes. angryrobots fucked around with this message at 17:47 on Apr 14, 2013 |
# ? Apr 14, 2013 17:43 |
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Or... the power companies can upgrade residential power distribution infrastructure to meet the demands of their customers.
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 17:49 |
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grover posted:Or... the power companies can upgrade residential power distribution infrastructure. And the oil companies can cut their profit margins in half and we'll get cheap gas again. And Congress will pass a balanced budget without putting thousands on the streets, and Israel will make peace with the Muslim world and treat Palestinians like human beings and the F-35B will be cut to pay for the resumption of F-22 construction and Teraflex will give me a $5000 gift card.
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 17:52 |
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A lot of people with PHEV already charge during off peak hours. I don't know why y'all keep ignoring this. Besides, we aren't going to have mass adoption of them overnight. It will happen gradually, and the supply will rise to meet the demand. I'm sure there will be some bumps but its not going to be the end of the world either.
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 17:56 |
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Absolutely agreed. I also think that the average EV buyer tends to be far more in tune with their electricity costs than the average person, especially when charging off peak can be 30 to 50 percent cheaper. If/when I get my EV I would never charge on peak unless absolutely necessary.
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 23:38 |
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If battery tech continues on the current trend, I think that is a perfectly reasonable way to look at it. Plotting new EV usage against more efficient appliances sold and smaller houses being built/old houses being remodeled as more efficient would probably net something around zero. The only hitch would be a sudden bump in technology, or automaker building a more usable and/or cost effective EV that appeals to the unwashed masses. So I guess we'll see!
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# ? Apr 14, 2013 23:50 |
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I'm seriously considering a Nissan Leaf, and have a few questions I'm hoping some people - hopefully existing owners - can help me with. Forgive a heavy dose of ignorance here. The car comes with no charg station at all, correct? I'm not an electrician, and don't know any, so I'd want the $2k pro installation one and hope my landlords don't freak out. Unless installing new 240 isn't too hard and hiring a local contractor is cheaper - though the service might be worth it. My garage won't support a car (was renovated into a room before I moved in), and there's no place to stick an outlet, so I'm really not sure how to get a charging station anywhere near my driveway. This is so bloody first world, but... how are the cupholders? I can't see them in the 360 interior view. My Mazda Protege had them recessed under the dash, so you can't fit anything but a can. Since this would be my commuter car it's a concern. Not a big one. Would I need the SV to take advantage of public charging stations? I guess I'm not sure if the faster stations can also trickle down into the slower (3.3 I think - the SV is 6.6) charger.
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# ? May 5, 2013 20:06 |
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Mortanis posted:The car comes with no charg station at all, correct? I'm not an electrician, and don't know any, so I'd want the $2k pro installation one and hope my landlords don't freak out. Unless installing new 240 isn't too hard and hiring a local contractor is cheaper - though the service might be worth it. My garage won't support a car (was renovated into a room before I moved in), and there's no place to stick an outlet, so I'm really not sure how to get a charging station anywhere near my driveway. It comes with a normal three prong outlet plug and ten or so feet of cable. That's the level one trickle charge that does about five miles an hour. The one you need an electrician for is the level two and does fifteen miles an hour. I never bothered with the level two since I just rent the house. Mortanis posted:This is so bloody first world, but... how are the cupholders? I can't see them in the 360 interior view. My Mazda Protege had them recessed under the dash, so you can't fit anything but a can. Since this would be my commuter car it's a concern. Not a big one. As you can see from this photo of a can I found in the trash, there's a decent amount of room. There is a bit of overhang, but you have to have a drink about 2-2.5 cans tall to hit it. Mortanis posted:Would I need the SV to take advantage of public charging stations? I guess I'm not sure if the faster stations can also trickle down into the slower (3.3 I think - the SV is 6.6) charger. Most charging stations are going to be level two chargers which all models support just fine. The level three thirty minute quick charge is the one that only the higher models have, but the chargers also arn't available everywhere.
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# ? May 5, 2013 21:57 |
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Beautiful, you're a life saver. That makes a lot more sense now. I do a 40 mile commute each day without errands, so I can probably just about get by with the trickle charge. There's a few actual stations near my home and work as well. Thank you!
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# ? May 5, 2013 22:14 |
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The one benefit of the L2 is the charging timer is a lot more accurate. At least with a 2012. I don't know if the 2013 is any better with its L1 estimates. If you get the upgraded charger then it is a no brainier to get a L2 installed.
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# ? May 6, 2013 16:36 |
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coolskillrex remix posted:\ How does Fresno get a dot but not Sacramento. We have 2 times more people. edit: gently caress should have read thread first
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# ? May 11, 2013 23:14 |
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I thought I'd venture into AI today and see if there was any electric discussion and was happy to see a dedicated thread! I've been driving pure electrics for about 3 years and around 40k miles or so. I own a 2010 Tesla Roadster 2.5, a 2012 Nissan Leaf and a 2012 Tesla Model S 85kw. Let me know if you have any questions about my experiences! Edit: I also drove from San Diego to San Francisco and back last month in the Model S with very little inconvenience!
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# ? May 12, 2013 22:06 |
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Does it ever get old smoking just about everything from the lights in near-complete silence?
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# ? May 13, 2013 10:35 |
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KozmoNaut posted:Does it ever get old smoking just about everything from the lights in near-complete silence? It certainly does not.
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# ? May 13, 2013 11:50 |
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KozmoNaut posted:Does it ever get old smoking just about everything from the lights in near-complete silence? Even a leaf can do this in normal driving condition, i.e. not trying to go to jail. I can't imagine how much faster a non econo electric is. Best part is how silent it is like you aren't even trying. Embarrassing a manual transmission 3 series is the best by making them use the shoulder in a lane that ends. They never slow down or admit defeat to a leaf. Fixed gears are the best gears.
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# ? May 13, 2013 14:31 |
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Elephanthead posted:Even a leaf can do this in normal driving condition, i.e. not trying to go to jail. I can't imagine how much faster a non econo electric is. Best part is how silent it is like you aren't even trying. Embarrassing a manual transmission 3 series is the best by making them use the shoulder in a lane that ends. They never slow down or admit defeat to a leaf. Fixed gears are the best gears. I've only ever driven low-power electric vehicles myself, but even a Citroën C-Zero (which has even less power than a Leaf) surprises people away from the lights. However, I have been a passenger in a Tesla Roadster on a number of occasions. Trust me on this, you have no idea what it's like before you experience it for yourself, it's absolutely ridiculous. From a passenger's point of view, I had to go all the way to an Audi R8 V10 to get the same sensation, although the Ariel Atom got pretty drat close.
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# ? May 13, 2013 14:56 |
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KozmoNaut posted:I've only ever driven low-power electric vehicles myself, but even a Citroën C-Zero (which has even less power than a Leaf) surprises people away from the lights. I think the sensation of speed is multiplied when there is no warning and the car seems to be expending no effort. When you hear a load roaring engine and the jerking of a transmission you almost always expect more speed than you get.
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# ? May 13, 2013 15:05 |
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Finally got notice that our Fusion Energi was built on May 8th and is on its way to us. We should have it by the end of the month at the latest. Got a VIN and a window sticker too. I'm officially getting excited. Also was happy to see that Bosch has come out with a Level 2 charger for only $450, a good $400 bucks cheaper than most.
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# ? May 13, 2013 17:58 |
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eeenmachine posted:I thought I'd venture into AI today and see if there was any electric discussion and was happy to see a dedicated thread! I've been driving pure electrics for about 3 years and around 40k miles or so. I own a 2010 Tesla Roadster 2.5, a 2012 Nissan Leaf and a 2012 Tesla Model S 85kw. Let me know if you have any questions about my experiences! What would you say to all the naysayers that say electric vehicles don't make sense, aren't ready yet, too little range, etc?
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# ? May 13, 2013 18:06 |
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Coredump posted:What would you say to all the naysayers that say electric vehicles don't make sense, aren't ready yet, too little range, etc? I tell them they are right because the only car argument worth pursuing is Mustang or Camaro.
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# ? May 13, 2013 18:51 |
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Coredump posted:What would you say to all the naysayers that say electric vehicles don't make sense, aren't ready yet, too little range, etc? They are usually converts after their first ride in the Model S.
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# ? May 13, 2013 18:53 |
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Does this mean you are evangelical with your electric vehicles? If you're grabbing people, stuffing them into your car, then launching hard from every red light on a long street, then I am intrigued by your ideas and interested in your newsletter.
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# ? May 13, 2013 20:30 |
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ExecuDork posted:Does this mean you are evangelical with your electric vehicles? I'm always spitting out facts to random people who ask everywhere I go. The rides are mostly friends and family.
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# ? May 13, 2013 23:20 |
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# ? May 15, 2024 22:28 |
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eeenmachine posted:I'm always spitting out facts to random people who ask everywhere I go. The rides are mostly friends and family. I've begun to sound a little like a sales rep, too--even when I'm not wearing my Tesla shirt. It's easy to do.
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# ? May 14, 2013 01:11 |