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I don't have any sources on this, but I remember reading that the Yue/Minnan groups were only thought as "Han" right around the end of the Qing, when the Republicans wanted to push an anti-Manchu narrative. Am I right on this or no?
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Sep 21, 2012 17:21
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Numlock posted:Isn't Americans generally acknowledging that we were dicks with are dealings with the Natives a more recent phenomena though? It was going on in the 80s when I was in grade school. Anyway the point isn't that it's recent or not, it's that we should stop reflexively saying "yeah but America too guys" when that's not remotely the case in regards to whitewashing history and hasn't been for a long time.
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Sep 25, 2012 15:23
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Some Guy TT posted:It may be more of a case of comparing apples and oranges. I'd say China is closer to the 1984 view of dystopia, where information is actively filtered and the populace is actively misinformed, while the United States is more like Brave New World, where the information is available, but the population has been so heavily conditioned to favor apathy it would never occur to most of them to actually look for it. 1984 had plenty of that going on too, for what it's worth- Big Brother didn't really care about the proles, and the proles in turn didn't really care about the specifics of how exactly Big Brother worked. I have to disagree about technique versus result. The techniques used in China prevent people from having the tools to become informed, whereas the technique in the West is basically "flood the market with Honey Boo Boo and they won't notice". The Chinese one seems like it's much harder to overcome than the Western one. I think the US ignorance is way more embarrassing, even though it's not as pervasive (I have yet to see multi-city anti-Arab riots in the US). We're a multi-cultural developed society, and we should know better. Maybe that's condescending, but this kind of stuff is expected in a developing country, even if the tone of it is uniquely "woe unto us, child-like innocent NE Asian nation-state that we are" in China. E: In regards to multi-culturalism in China, this just popped up from the China Daily on my fb feed: http://usa.chinadaily.com.cn/epaper/2012-09/25/content_15780878.htm quote:Sierra Leone native and Miss World winner Mariatu Kargbo has captured China's heart with her devotion to its culture and people. Chen Nan reports in Beijing...Maria says she brought the art to the world's attention to show her special gratitude to China. "I have two dreams: becoming Chinese and bringing Chinese culture to the world," she says. This to me sums up Chinese media about the other cultures: The rest of the world is a canvas on which we will paint our culture, look how they adore us for our beneficence! Soon the tribute will flow again as it has for centuries! This Chinese style "Tribute system" thinking is probably more palatable than neo-conservatism and has killed less people, but it's more all-encompassing than Paul Wolfowitz is in the US. menino fucked around with this message at 16:33 on Sep 25, 2012 |
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Sep 25, 2012 16:26
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flatbus posted:That's because we have multi-nation anti-'Arab' wars in the world that's condoned by the population. You're saying we'd be rioting if we weren't fighting in Afghanistan and droning in Pakistan? Really? When did rioting and drone strikes become mutually exclusive anyway?
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Sep 25, 2012 16:37
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flatbus posted:No, that's nonsensical and wasn't what I had meant at all. Sure, we flubbed 9-11 responses and got really really bloodthirsty, but in terms of public opinion, it faded fast (not fast enough of course if you are a dead Iraqi/Pashtun/Pakistani). A plurality of Americans want out of the Middle East at the moment, even if they're not doing much about achieving this. quote:I'm puzzled by this insistence on viewing China through its classical dynastic lens. There was a Communist revolution in the 50s and several decades of cultural turmoil that changed Chinese culture. On top of that, this view is largely inconsistent with history - China didn't exist as a unified history through the entirety of history, it had its share of internecine wars and foreign conquests during which tributary system be unsustainable. To say that after the tumult and stability China experienced from the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, it still clings to its imperial foreign policy of hundreds of years ago sounds a bit implausible. Do you expect Mongolians to continuously scheme to take over half the world and demand tribute from Russia as well? No, but Mongolia lost its empire in a matter of two generations and ended eight hundred years ago. The Ming/Qing continuum lasted for six hundred years and ended only a hundred years ago. The Qing was of course weakened and decrepit for its last hundred years, but that wasn't due to an internal Asia problem, it was due to the Ocean People. It's an Asian (Chinese) system, not a Western one, and I think that's where its main appeal lies with regards to the foreign policy decision makers in the Chinese government.
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Sep 25, 2012 18:00
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My apologies, I can easily see how you think I meant that.
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^ I still don't think Mongolia had the established tradition, mostly by virtue of it being a nomadic culture. They Islamized where there was Islam and Sinified where there was Sino, and quickly fell into warring Cousin Khanates. Anyway, as an indication that I may not know what the gently caress I'm talking about in regards to my other point, I just read this really long article about white supremacists in Dearborn Michigan: Dearborn: Where Americans Come to Hate Muslims quote:In April 2011, pastor Terry Jones burned a Koran in Gainesville, Florida, sparking deadly clashes in Afghanistan and Pakistan. One year later, he burned a Koran again, and no one paid any attention. That same month he came to Dearborn, Michigan, to protest in front of the Islamic Center of America, the nation's largest mosque. "Islam has one goal," Jones told the small crowd, and a much larger group of counter-demonstrators and police, according to the Detroit Free Press. "That is world domination."
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Sep 25, 2012 20:19
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Oceanbound posted:What really? I don't think that is remotely true. Yes, those terms mean Protestant and Catholic. Yes, people probably don't know the difference. Big leap to go from there to "they think Catholics aren't Christian". Koreans think that Catholics aren't Christian. They have a word for "Protestant", but literally no one had ever heard of the translation I used. Stands to reason Chinese have the same tranlsation issue. edit RE: Jews, Chinese are surprisingly anti-semitic. Every time I mentioned the problem with banks in the US, the first thing I heard was "Oh the Judeos, right?" You could call this something else, as it's probably the one thing they hear about Jews in China like "Chicago is very cold", but I was suprised at how often I heard that. menino fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Oct 7, 2012 |
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Oct 7, 2012 14:56
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If they don't know the context, then I guess they're trying not to. Hitler=Japan's buddy. Japan=hated enemy, slaughterer of population, decimator of native culture , creator of attempted racial empire at the expense of Chinese lives. Racial empires' ally in Europe=neutral figure? Come on, gently caress that. They learned nothing from it, if it's just a "hey important Western figure let's feature him lolololo". I get that China's not up on international standards in terms of development, but for the most part that's just willful ignorance, at that's at best. {Insert NE Asian nation-state here] is always history's victim.
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Oct 8, 2012 01:25
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I don't get how the Chinese I met didn't understand the idea of staples outside the borders of the Middle Kingdom. I met dozens of Chinese who had no problem breaking down the "rice/wheat" dichotomy for me when it came to regions, but seemed perplexed when it turned out that I didn't eat hamburgers and pizza at least once a day in the US. And I was working for an Beijing SEO in the shipping industry, it's not like these people were rubes. I mean anecdotal evidence and all, but it was something I got asked on average twice a week by co-workers/friends.
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Feb 16, 2013 05:10
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