p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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minidracula: Dec 22, 2007; boo woo boo

CPColin posted:

I just committed a change to my team's Java-only project that says how to do something using the Kotlin REPL and I keep laughing at how obnoxious that is

It is obnoxious, but I keep thinking for the last n years that if I had to, or wanted to (for whatever reason) write to the JVM these days, Kotlin is the best option.

I say this as someone who once (relatively briefly, and it was more or less self-contained) had to occasionally deal with (though I may have to deal with it again soon) Scala, though I am far from what I would describe as a Scala developer. (I'm talking about Chisel, FWIW.)

# ? Mar 27, 2024 02:12

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 10:58

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

minidracula posted:

I demand the Unicode Consortium add curly fry emojis (both -- at least -- left and right oriented curly fries) so that I can properly write Common Lisp in TYOOL 2024 like a modern programming language.

This is a molehill I will tie-dye on.

for proper internationalization you also need top and bottom oriented curly fry emoji

# ? Mar 27, 2024 04:43

mystes: May 31, 2006

Maybe they could just add top and bottom modifiers?

# ? Mar 27, 2024 05:24

CPColin: Sep 9, 2003; Big ol' smile.

Flash forward to all of Tumblr scolding each other for not using top/bottom modifiers in their posts

# ? Mar 27, 2024 05:55

Visions of Valerie: Jun 18, 2023; Come this autumn, we'll be miles away...

CPColin posted:

Flash forward to all of Tumblr scolding each other for not using top/bottom modifiers in their posts

listen I think it's important to know whether your post is okay with me instantiating bottom

# ? Mar 27, 2024 05:58

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

mystes posted:

Maybe they could just add top and bottom modifiers?

curly_fry + ZWJ + (

# ? Mar 27, 2024 14:55

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

got part 1 of my fraction thing working hell yeah

% FIXME: quite ugly...

# ? Mar 27, 2024 15:07

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

trans and cis fries

# ? Mar 27, 2024 17:18

matti: Mar 31, 2019

so I'm working on an XML shorthand.

(assume 2 spaces are INDENT)

anyone know any more recent prior art than e.g. SOX from 20 years ago?

matti fucked around with this message at 00:49 on Mar 29, 2024

# ? Mar 29, 2024 00:46

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

matti posted:

so I'm working on an XML shorthand.

this is probably valid and well-formed html5

# ? Mar 29, 2024 00:52

matti: Mar 31, 2019

i think the tricky part is whitespace if you want to be isomorphic w/ xml

but i think i have figured an unambiguous grammar for that that luckily maps to the formatting you would use anyway

i say this now, i'll probably find some critical fault in my reasoning tomorrow and have to scrap half of the design

# ? Mar 29, 2024 00:59

minidracula: Dec 22, 2007; boo woo boo

matti posted:

so I'm working on an XML shorthand.

(assume 2 spaces are INDENT)

anyone know any more recent prior art than e.g. SOX from 20 years ago?

I could point you to a bunch of (largely old, and older) things but I'm not sure they meet your needs? However, in a related yet kind of different vein, or a flip on the idea that I think you're currently going for, check out Invisible XML.

(Let me know if you *do* want all those old pointers for various smaller-than-XML XML things...)

# ? Mar 29, 2024 01:41

Kazinsal: Dec 13, 2011

matti posted:

so I'm working on an XML shorthand.

(assume 2 spaces are INDENT)

anyone know any more recent prior art than e.g. SOX from 20 years ago?

let's go the other way! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_Generalized_Markup_Language

# ? Mar 29, 2024 04:51

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

matti posted:

so I'm working on an XML shorthand.

(assume 2 spaces are INDENT)

anyone know any more recent prior art than e.g. SOX from 20 years ago?

S-experessions are easy to write and parse and unambiguous

code:

(html
  (head
    (title "Example mark-up"))
  (body
    (h2 "Row 6 (z-)")
    (ul (li "If /z-/ starts an utterance or is after /n̄/:"
          (ul (li "Before /-a -u, -e, -o/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolar_affricate"
                                       "voiced alveolar affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[d͡z]"))))
              (li "Before /-i, -y-/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolo-palatal_affricate"
                                       "voiced alveolo-palatal affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[d͡ʑ]"))))
        (li "If /z-/ does not start an utterance and is not after /n̄/:"
          (ul (li "Before /-a -u, -e, -o/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolar_fricative"
                                       "voiced alveolar affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[z]"))))
              (li "Before /-i, -y-/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolo-palatal_affricate"
                                       "voiced alveolo-palatal affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[ʑ]")))))))

# ? Mar 29, 2024 05:45

bob dobbs is dead: Oct 8, 2017; I love peeps; Nap Ghost

hiccup is the dealio in a lisp with vector and map literals

https://github.com/weavejester/hiccup

# ? Mar 29, 2024 05:52

redleader: Aug 18, 2005; Engage according to operational parameters

eschaton posted:

S-experessions are easy to write and parse and unambiguous

code:

(html
  (head
    (title "Example mark-up"))
  (body
    (h2 "Row 6 (z-)")
    (ul (li "If /z-/ starts an utterance or is after /n&#204;&#8222;/:"
          (ul (li "Before /-a -u, -e, -o/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolar_affricate"
                                       "voiced alveolar affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[d&#205;&#161;z]"))))
              (li "Before /-i, -y-/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolo-palatal_affricate"
                                       "voiced alveolo-palatal affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[d&#205;&#161;&#202;&#8216;]"))))
        (li "If /z-/ does not start an utterance and is not after /n&#204;&#8222;/:"
          (ul (li "Before /-a -u, -e, -o/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolar_fricative"
                                       "voiced alveolar affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[z]"))))
              (li "Before /-i, -y-/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolo-palatal_affricate"
                                       "voiced alveolo-palatal affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[&#202;&#8216;]")))))))

we can replace the unnecessary (s with whitespace,

# ? Mar 29, 2024 06:16

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

matti posted:

so I'm working on an XML shorthand.

(assume 2 spaces are INDENT)

anyone know any more recent prior art than e.g. SOX from 20 years ago?

just use normal xml

# ? Mar 29, 2024 14:14

VikingofRock: Aug 24, 2008

eschaton posted:

S-experessions are easy to write and parse and unambiguous

code:

(html
  (head
    (title "Example mark-up"))
  (body
    (h2 "Row 6 (z-)")
    (ul (li "If /z-/ starts an utterance or is after /n&#204;&#8222;/:"
          (ul (li "Before /-a -u, -e, -o/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolar_affricate"
                                       "voiced alveolar affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[d&#205;&#161;z]"))))
              (li "Before /-i, -y-/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolo-palatal_affricate"
                                       "voiced alveolo-palatal affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[d&#205;&#161;&#202;&#8216;]"))))
        (li "If /z-/ does not start an utterance and is not after /n&#204;&#8222;/:"
          (ul (li "Before /-a -u, -e, -o/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolar_fricative"
                                       "voiced alveolar affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[z]"))))
              (li "Before /-i, -y-/:"
                (ul (li "/z-/ is a" (a :href "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_alveolo-palatal_affricate"
                                       "voiced alveolo-palatal affricate")
                                    (span :class :ipa "[&#202;&#8216;]")))))))

Honestly I like this better than regular html. They should have made it a lisp!

# ? Mar 29, 2024 18:03

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

VikingofRock posted:

Honestly I like this better than regular html. They should have made it a lisp!

this poster gets it

now imagine if brendan �I hate the gays� eich had just wired up scheme48 in a weekend as he�d originally suggested instead of throwing together livescript from scratch over the course of a couple weeks

# ? Mar 30, 2024 09:19

Soricidus: Oct 21, 2010; freedom-hating statist shill

eschaton posted:

this poster gets it

now imagine if brendan �I hate the gays� eich had just wired up scheme48 in a weekend as he�d originally suggested instead of throwing together livescript from scratch over the course of a couple weeks

yes, I can imagine a world where vbscript won, but it�s not a very pretty sight

# ? Mar 30, 2024 11:28

matti: Mar 31, 2019

Shaggar posted:

just use normal xml

if you ignore all the complaints how it's rear end to write or edit without a specialized editor, regular xml is pretty needs suiting, sure.

# ? Mar 30, 2024 13:06

Sagacity: May 2, 2003; Hopefully my epitaph will be funnier than my custom title.

because you are writing XML by hand all the time, obviously, and editor technology in 2024 should not be expected to be able to include the rocket science of autoclosing a tag

# ? Mar 30, 2024 13:17

matti: Mar 31, 2019

honestly, i do end up writing marked-up documents all the time.

the second criticism is more fair. but i think i'd rather write a pre-processor than learn a new editor that i'd likely end up hating for not being vi.

# ? Mar 30, 2024 13:46

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

i would be surprised if vi doesnt have a thousand plugins for editing xml

# ? Mar 30, 2024 14:01

NihilCredo: Jun 6, 2011; iram omni possibili modo preme:
plus una illa te diffamabit, quam multæ virtutes commendabunt

it would be kind of nice to have a language that's a strict subset of xml, removing purely redundant features like attributes, empty tags, and cdata

then everybody could keep using existing xml parsing tools while gradually updating xml writers

# ? Mar 30, 2024 14:54

Shaggar: Apr 26, 2006

matti posted:

if you ignore all the complaints how it's rear end to write or edit without a specialized editor, regular xml is pretty needs suiting, sure.

its not rear end to write, you need to use better toosl. creating some hosed up sudo-xml is going to cause you infinitely more wasted time than just using xml

# ? Mar 30, 2024 15:00

matti: Mar 31, 2019

Shaggar posted:

creating some hosed up sudo-xml is going to cause you infinitely more wasted time than just using xml

lol we'll see

# ? Mar 30, 2024 15:23

Sagacity: May 2, 2003; Hopefully my epitaph will be funnier than my custom title.

matti posted:

i think i'd rather write a pre-processor than learn a new editor that i'd likely end up hating for not being vi.

the most linux statement itt

# ? Mar 30, 2024 15:25

Subjunctive: Sep 12, 2006; ✨sparkle and shine✨

Shaggar posted:

its not rear end to write, you need to use better toosl. creating some hosed up sudo-xml is going to cause you infinitely more wasted time than just using xml

sudo close my tags

# ? Mar 30, 2024 15:25

Bloody: Mar 3, 2013

xml is good. sometimes the things that use it are bad tho. like msbuild

# ? Mar 30, 2024 17:22

Internet Janitor: May 17, 2008; "That isn't the appropriate trash receptacle."

for the things xml is a good fit for, most alternatives are worse

xml has a ton of unnecessarily complex and subtle features that make it hard to work with, though, like custom entities

i think carving out a stricter subset of xml would probably do more to address its issues than replacing nesting with whitespace or angle brackets for parentheses

# ? Mar 30, 2024 17:35

12 rats tied together: Sep 7, 2006

normally im down with weird markup language poo poo but if you've set out to create a version of xml that is easier for humans to read and write you ought to just use yaml instead

# ? Mar 30, 2024 18:30

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

Carthag Tuek posted:

i would be surprised if vi doesnt have a thousand plugins for editing xml

vim has had support for xml for over a decade. noun phrase is `t` for tag. as in, dit (delete inside tag), yat (yank around tag) etc

# ? Mar 30, 2024 18:57

Sagacity: May 2, 2003; Hopefully my epitaph will be funnier than my custom title.

leper khan posted:

vim has had support for xml for over a decade. noun phrase is `t` for tag. as in, dit (delete inside tag), yat (yank around tag) etc

tbf this does sound like it might take longer to learn than the time it would take to create a completely bespoke XML preprocessing dialect

# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:01

leper khan: Dec 28, 2010; Honest to god thinks Half Life 2 is a bad game. But at least he likes Monster Hunter.

Sagacity posted:

tbf this does sound like it might take longer to learn than the time it would take to create a completely bespoke XML preprocessing dialect

sure no one should learn vi today who hasnt already been ruined by it

# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:05

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

please do not invent yet another markup language because you�re too stubborn to configure your editor to do things that every reasonable editor has done automatically for decades

i literally wrote out yet another markup language and then remembered that that was what yaml stood for. people were already so exhausted of infinite one-off markup languages that they were cracking ironic jokes about them in the names of those languages in 2001

# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:06

mystes: May 31, 2006

rjmccall posted:

please do not invent yet another markup language

bad news about that

# ? Mar 30, 2024 19:16

akadajet: Sep 14, 2003

and while we�re at it stop inventing new programming languages, ui frameworks and orms. we have enough

# ? Mar 30, 2024 20:46

rjmccall: Sep 7, 2007; no worries friend; Fun Shoe

interfaces and implementations can always be improved. �hierarchy of loosely-typed records in a text file� is such a basic and constrained concept that there�s genuinely nothing you can add to it that�s worth inventing a new syntax. learn to use your editor

# ? Mar 30, 2024 22:13

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 10:58

Carthag Tuek: Oct 15, 2005; Tider skal komme,
tider skal henrulle,
sl�gt skal f�lge sl�gters gang

Sagacity posted:

tbf this does sound like it might take longer to learn than the time it would take to create a completely bespoke XML preprocessing dialect

matti already uses vi so imo they should just use the defaults

# ? Mar 30, 2024 22:16

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