p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

gonadic io posted:

counterpoint: if you want to search for .*.*.*.*.* then do that on your own cpu.

software should be running on the user's CPU

servers are for storing data

eschaton fucked around with this message at 06:52 on Sep 21, 2017

# ¿ Sep 21, 2017 06:48

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 04:11

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

leper khan posted:

pretty sure email doesn�t need a . after the @

it also doesn't need a @

# ¿ Sep 21, 2017 06:49

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

ICU is the standard regular expression syntax because ICU is a standard

sort of

enough

# ¿ Sep 21, 2017 06:51

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

if you're sending mail from one local user to another there's no need for anything more than a username

and as someone else pointed out there was also bang path addressing, common with UUCP back in the day

# ¿ Sep 23, 2017 10:23

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

VikingofRock posted:

What's the better-but-not-mainstream alternative to PDFs?

DVI?

# ¿ Oct 13, 2017 08:44

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

tef posted:

ironically, tcp is a bad idea reasonably executed

well, mostly ok

tcp as we know it went through many iterations

tcp3 is where it split into tcp/ip which was a good idea at the time, but also ip fragmentaton exists so

then there was tcp-reno et al being developed after congestion collapse

then i guess all the syn-cookie problems, and the back and forward between stateless and stateful firewalls happened too

and now bufferbloat

and now we have a fossiled network of shitboxes at the last mile, great

what this means though is that my circa 1988 Mac IIx with System 6 and MacTCP 2.1 and my circa 1989 Symbolics XL400 with Genera 8.3 can still talk to circa 2017 hardware and software

# ¿ Oct 13, 2017 08:51

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

VikingofRock posted:

Has anyone ever made a C compiler equivalent to suicide linux? Like every time it detects UB it calls

at least with clang you can specify the function to use in representing the undefined behavior trap

and being able to specify a function means being able to hook it

# ¿ Oct 13, 2017 08:56

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

BobHoward posted:

have you heard of sysv STREAMS my friend

what draws people to BSD sockets is that it�s easy to get something kinda working

STREAMS is a big chunky flexible heavy API that does everything and is very orthogonal but requires more work to go from 0 to something, so nobody except a few actual-engineer types ever really wanted to use it

(Open Transport was a layer over STREAMS that was much simpler to program but was more Mac Toolbox style than C stdio style like sockets is)

LOL at the people who thought they could talk Apple into STREAMS on Mac OS X: Open Transport was based on licensed code, which SJ would not touch for a core component of Mac OS X like networking, especially given how pissy Adobe was about Display PostScript licensing

and LOL if you think the BSD folks from NeXT would consider a green field implementation of STREAMS when there was so much poo poo to do to ship and what they had already worked

# ¿ Oct 13, 2017 19:47

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Suspicious Dish posted:

yes

suspicious dish write the blog post

# ¿ Oct 13, 2017 19:47

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

VikingofRock posted:

I was running through a ruby tutorial and they introduced looping by calling a method on an integer
Ruby code:
69.times do
    puts "wtf"
end
and that's when I knew ruby was nuts

that�s a fine way to do things in Smalltalk, it�s clear there that everything is a message-send including iteration

SmallTalk code:

69 through: 420 do: [
  Console writeLine: 'This is fine.'
].

Ruby is just bizarro cargo cult Smalltalk with Perl inspired syntax

# ¿ Oct 15, 2017 05:34

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

VikingofRock posted:

honestly all the metaprogramming and stuff seems pretty cool. Just, you know, totally out there compared with most other languages

the meta programming is way better in Lisp and Smalltalk than in Ruby because everyone�s special DSLs fit in with the base language so much more, and you can therefore develop much better tooling to work with them (and bring more of the standard tooling to bear too)

# ¿ Oct 15, 2017 05:38

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

if you use metaprogramming in any sense other than generic types please explain yourself

metaprogramming in Common Lisp has nothing to do with generic types but it�s both idiomatic and fine, macros are cool and a good way to make it easy to write and read well structured code

it�s just about the only place I�ve seen metaprogramming used non-horribly though

(along with Enterprise Objects Framework, Core Data, and KVC/KVO/bindings, of course)

# ¿ Oct 18, 2017 00:00

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

your language should fully model mathematics and include a property numeric tower

but it should also be able to restrict types to ranges that make for good optimization, e.g. integers between 0 and 255 or really any other range (or other type constraint, for that matter)

also it should have lots of parentheses

# ¿ Oct 31, 2017 08:56

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

the Macintosh operating system supported async I/O pervasively when released in 1984: you set a pointer in your I/O parameter block and your call to perform some I/O would return immediately and your event loop could keep running, your function pointer would be called (at interrupt time) as soon as the I/O was complete or an error occurred

you could actually get decent throughput this way, though it was obviously more complex to program

unfortunately tons of developers learned C on time-shared UNIX systems in school and brought that brain damage with when they tried to program for the Mac, complaining both about both the lack of performance with synchronous I/O and the complexity of doing anything else

# ¿ Nov 3, 2017 05:20

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

first thing I�ve heard about it that makes me want to read it

I still love Hertzfield�s story about Gates� wonder at the smoothness of the mouse pointer on Lisa & Macintosh, and his assumption it couldn�t be done without a hardware cursor

(the 6522 Versatile Interface Adapter is a magical chip, even the Apple II could do a smooth mouse cursor with one on the mouse card)

# ¿ Nov 4, 2017 02:13

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Powaqoatse posted:

loving listen

you remember soundcards like soundblaster etc?

there used to be mouse cards apparently

yeah, there was this thing called a �bus mouse� for IBM PC clone users who had more slots to spare than serial ports

Lisa and Macintosh had the hardware to run a mouse built in, of course, as did the Apple //c and IIgs, and Apple made a mouse card for earlier Apple II systems that was basically just a VIA to handle counting the quadrature inputs and generating a VBL interrupt, and a ROM with the driver in it that knew how to turn that into screen coordinates

# ¿ Nov 4, 2017 07:01

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Gazpacho posted:

Barbarians Led By Bill Gates has a whole chapter about Gates's flip-out when he found out that Mac apps couldn't be auto-translated to Windows because of that

ty again for the recommendation, it�s interesting if very obviously biased and somewhat amateurishly written and typeset

# ¿ Nov 4, 2017 20:06

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

mystes posted:

Blah blah blah turing completeness. But in reality it will make it a lot more practical to replace desktop applications for a lot of stuff.

no it won�t because a web page isn�t a replacement for a desktop (or mobile) application

# ¿ Nov 17, 2017 08:42

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Suspicious Dish posted:

yeah the gc spec is on pause until after host-bindings happens. womp womp. i dont think its going to happen. also "tree shaking" isn't a loving webassembly feature, it's literally dead code elimination and every compiler has had it for years. why do people keep talking about "tree shaking"

they�re pretending to be Lisp hackers

�tree shaking� is what dead code elimination was called in Lisp environments, because you worked in an image based environment that included the development tools; to build a standalone distribution for your application, you had to grab it by the roots and shake all the tools and stuff out of it

these days Lisp people still work in image based environments, but they build up applications using system definitions so they can get dependency handling, reproducible builds, and so on

and by �these days� I mean �since the introduction of defsystem in the early 1980s�

# ¿ Nov 17, 2017 08:48

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

if only Brendan Eich had said �only a week? gently caress it, you�re getting Scheme-48 and you�ll like it�

# ¿ Nov 17, 2017 08:58

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

defmacro? I�m imagining call-with-current-continuation

# ¿ Nov 17, 2017 09:57

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Powaqoatse posted:

i dont even care about performance, webapps just annoy the hell out of me they all look and behave differently in subtle and not-so ways and ughhhhhhh i would throw my computer and everything out the window if i had to use more than one

also they perform terribly

# ¿ Nov 17, 2017 22:34

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

rjmccall posted:

i literally said things would be worse if the web used lisp

you�re right about a lot of things but very much not this, friend

# ¿ Nov 17, 2017 22:34

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

carry on then posted:

lmao this is so blatantly false

Wheany is probably talking about the nightmare hellscape that is Windows

# ¿ Nov 18, 2017 23:42

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

also the rust evangelism strike force will let you know that rust exists to solve your problem, whatever it is

# ¿ Nov 19, 2017 02:47

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Suspicious Dish posted:

this but unironically. it's an easy way for a user to show curiosity about an element but also be unsure about whether they want to click, and a much better interaction model than those old windows apps that had the "?" next to the minimize button.

I liked it better when it was called Balloon Help

# ¿ Nov 20, 2017 09:18

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

carry on then posted:

another "programming education should start with logic gates" vs "programming education should start with SICP' argument's a-brewin

if you start with SICP you should be to designing your own CPU in a Scheme-flavored HDL and targeting a Scheme compiler to it by the end of the semester

# ¿ Nov 25, 2017 12:36

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Suspicious Dish posted:

at some point i should finish this but i had way too much fun writing the code editor hoping that by the time i wrote that i'd figure out what to use it for

i was wrong

https://magcius.github.io/xplain/article/rast2.html

I didn�t see a mention that canvas was a way of exposing the CoreGraphics API to HTML5/JavaScript so it could be used by Dashboard widgets, and that�s why there�s a 1:1 translation of PostScript to JavaScript possible�

I seem to recall Dave Winer having a tantrum, because he�d wanted QuickDraw for HTML for years, and the PostScript imaging model was just too hard for him to deal with

# ¿ Nov 25, 2017 12:45

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

tef posted:

anyway he then went on a timecube-esque rant which boiled down to

"why aren't the python devs doing what is convenient for me"

i mean py3 was a shitshow

but zed's a jerk

his py3 rant is what a lot of the complaints about Swift strings over the years have reminded me of

Swift strings didn�t let developers do �simple and obvious� things that were only actually valid in US-ASCII encoding because, guess what, US-ASCII encoding is insufficient for the real world

also virtually everything developers wanted to do was already handled by the standard library or by Foundation already (e.g. get or elide path extension, match prefix/suffix, check whether string contains, extract path components, etc.)

multiple generations of programmers have been misled into believing strings are easy, they�re not and getting mad at more correct implementations just makes one look ignorant

# ¿ Nov 25, 2017 12:55

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

carry on then posted:

oh, the "you should already be an experienced programmer by the time you graduate high school or you aren't passionate enough" argument. heard that one too

raminasi posted:

i interpreted it as �if you�re going to do SICP you should do all of it�

it was the latter

also SICP assumes you�re starting from scratch with programming

# ¿ Nov 25, 2017 17:31

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

carry on then posted:

i know it's from mit but a fully working cpu AND compiler designed and debugged seems a bit hard for even an expert to do in a semester

but my bs cs was unranked so maybe i'm just extremely dumb and bad

even MIT didn�t get through the book in a semester :ssh:

# ¿ Nov 25, 2017 17:55

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Powaqoatse posted:

hows it do if you copy to another application? just wondering whats going on in the frontend

on a real operating system with a text rendering and editing infrastructure that�s used by all applications, it just works

# ¿ Nov 26, 2017 23:21

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Sapozhnik posted:

i tried this and now all my code looks like squid people

would you say it has the Innsmouth-McConnell look?

# ¿ Nov 27, 2017 07:08

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Malcolm XML posted:

I mean most code to return to the sea

# ¿ Nov 27, 2017 08:09

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Sapozhnik posted:

remember when java originally had green threads lol

Pepperidge Farms remembers

this was only on systems that didn�t have native threads right, because Solaris had them by the mid-1990s, as did many other Unixes (they just didn�t all have the pthreads API on top yet)

hell the classic Mac OS even had native threads back then, both cooperative (Thread Manager on 68K & PPC) and preemptive (Multiprocessing Services and PPC)

green threads as a concept should�ve been dead by 1995 or so

# ¿ Nov 28, 2017 01:11

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Objective-C really does hit a sweet spot when it comes to explicit types and dynamic dispatch:

only objects get dynamic dispatch, C primitive types stay exactly the same and can be used to interoperate with OO code
an object referenced via a variable declared id can be sent any message at all, though the compiler can warn for messages that don�t have any declarations at all
an object referenced via a variable declared as being a specific class or protocol can only be sent messages appropriate for that class or protocol, though the compiler takes a flag that reduces this from an error to a warning
�categories� let you add methods to classes you don�t control at compile time, making it possible to add new cross-cutting behavior very easily and without complicated metaprogramming (e.g. you can add a method to NSString that returns a reversed string, and it�ll work for any instance of NSString and any subclasses)�this is where C# got the idea for extension methods, but ObjC has nicer syntax for declaring them
complicated metaprogramming is possible because the entire runtime is dynamic (with the exception that classes can�t really be safely removed or unloaded, because caches can get built up based on class identity), so you can do things like add methods to classes at runtime that
memory management has been largely automated in a way that most developers don�t need to worry about much, and in a way that�s a lot easier for developers to reason about than something like Rust�s borrow checker
closures (blocks) are supported, and you can even add a method at runtime whose implementation is a closure, the only downside is that closure syntax is basically C function pointer syntax
type-erasing generics were added recently, and provide a useful degree of API annotation for homogeneous collections, without imposing all sorts of complicated semantics on the API and without affecting the ABI

sure Swift has all sorts of things like �real� generics, algebraic data types, a choice between static and dynamic dispatch, and much, much stricter typing, but almost all of the above was supported in ObjC 10 years ago and most of it was supported 20+ years ago

# ¿ Nov 28, 2017 08:58

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

feedmegin posted:

Green threads are cooperative threads effectively, I'm not sure what using MacOS's version of those instead would have brought to the table.

Early Java on Solaris used green threads, too. If you want to have lots and lots of threads, they're a lot more lightweight than native threads, especially Solaris' back then, and if you don't have multiple CPUs/cores native threads aren't actually buying you that much. Also, can be easier to implement (on the one hand you gotta use async I/o everywhere, on the other your JVM/runtime/native code doesn't have to be native-threadsafe)

�green threads� means a user space rather than OS threads implementation

it doesn�t necessarily mean cooperative, though most implementations are because LOL at implementing context switching with signal and setjmp/longjmp

# ¿ Nov 28, 2017 11:48

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Symbolic Butt posted:

one thing that bothers me about swift is that when you install it on ubuntu you need to install python-dev for it to run but the docs doesn't say it https://swift.org/download/#linux

yes I'm pedantic yospos birch

file a ~~Radar~~public and searchable bug report yet?

# ¿ Nov 29, 2017 00:45

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

perrible toegrammer thread

# ¿ Nov 30, 2017 03:10

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# ¿ May 2, 2024 04:11

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

MALE SHOEGAZE posted:

toejam and perl

# ¿ Nov 30, 2017 08:54

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

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