p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))

My Linux Rig: Mar 27, 2010; Can't post for 6 years!

newreply.php posted:

do java/c# if you want easy + money

do objc if you want hard + lots of money

do android devvin' if you want naggy users/pirates + no money

close thread

objc is probably one of the easier languages out there, mostly cause of the tools backing it up

i'm not sure how you can consider ios app development hard

# ¿ Apr 26, 2012 05:26

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 04:23

My Linux Rig: Mar 27, 2010; Can't post for 6 years!

volkadav posted:

~ effort poste ~

I love all the people that claim that js is suitable for large scale application development because there are libraries to do X, Y or Z. Never mind that most of them still suck for whatever reason (e.g. lacking or lovely documentation) so good luck picking the least bad out of the herd of contenders and are all generally developed by ADHD hipsters who will drop maintenance at the drop of a PBR: all of them can only do so much to hide the underlying language from you which is filled to the brim with weird behavior (if you think otherwise, you haven't used js very long... a small appetizer of crazy here: https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/wat). When somebody has to write a book specifically calling out which parts of your language are good, and it becomes a best-seller, that might be a hint that there's a big steaming pile of badness in your language too. It's not like somebody has had to write "C: The Good Parts."

The ultimate irony here is that none of the people jumping up and down about how awesome server-side js is have even an ounce of historical knowledge about their favorite best-ever-zomg-so-awesome-unicorns-and-puppies!!!! language. Javascript on the server-side was tried in the 1990s and was an utter failure (trivia quiz: without using Google, what servers even supported this?). It sucked for writing big apps then, it sucks for writing big apps now, and I'm seriously afraid that a generation of people will grow up thinking that JS is a good idea and waste both their lives and the time of the wiser heads that have to maintain their poo poo later on. I'm glad that you like writing performant server-side code, good on you, but realize that node is only (sort of, in some situations) fast because it embodies a particular design pattern, not because it happens to be javascript. You can write fast evented code in other languages that aren't formless blobs of over-hyped poo (and also note that event handling isn't the only way to skin a cat here).

JS is only tolerable in one place, and that's in the browser to drive event handlers and such for interactive things. That's only true because there aren't any other options (except vbs, lol).

I mean don't get me wrong, I sympathize with liking a language that's totally unsuitable for programming in the large. I liked perl for a long time. But hell is other people's perl code. Say what you will about Java, it puts a hard upper limit on how completely insane you can be (sure there's a FactoryFactoryFactory but that code is still easier to read than somebody who thought it would be cool to write the monthly payroll cron job as one ten thousand character regexp or whatever the gently caress cat-on-keyboard spew you can find in the worst perl codebases). Like so many things, building solid systems requires picking the right tools for the job to hand, and JS is usually not the right tool. Much as you can use a screwdriver as a prybar though, people keep trying to do the wrong thing because they're too ignorant or lazy to reach for the right tools and just like in carpentry will end up hurting themselves or others.

I... guess I'm just about javascript. Sorry guys, as you were. I hear the bay area is neat?

totally agree, javascript is meant for UI code only, if you're trying to put server code or app code in it then I dunno what to tell you

Unfortunately there are a lot of web developers out there who love the idea of thick clients in the browsers so you'll still have people forcing that idiotic idea down everyone's throats

Hopefully nacl or something similiar will become standard

# ¿ Apr 26, 2012 15:35

My Linux Rig: Mar 27, 2010; Can't post for 6 years!

newreply.php posted:

compared to java?

java is probably easier since its syntax is pretty similiar to c, but objc has xcode backing it up which is pretty much the best suite of tools I've ever seen for making apps

So really making an app in objc isn't harder than doing it in java

# ¿ Apr 26, 2012 15:42

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Shaggar posted:

javascript is bad for ui code. i cant even imagine trying to use it for server stuff.

well the idea is that if you're making a website, then you'll pretty much have to deal with javascript and its best just to minimize your app's dependence on it

# ¿ Apr 26, 2012 15:44

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Anal Tributary posted:

i dont think its about plugins; it's about browsers slowly, slowly, sloooowly gaining desktop app capabilities (why the gently caress are localStorage/indexedDB/file API/all storage solutions still loving TERRIBLE)

cause its javascript and everything has to be asynchronous bullshit

Though to be honest, why even use those at all? All the best web apps have treated web apps as they should be treated: as thin clients that don't do anything more than manage the UI and call the server for everything else

# ¿ Apr 28, 2012 17:21

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Tiny Bug Child posted:

they were "solved" with lovely halfassed solutions. "gosh just <do arcane user-hostile procedure X>" is not really a solution when you can have the same thing by opening yr browser and going to a page

chrome is a desktop app that has solved all those issues

When was the last time you noticed an update in that

# ¿ Apr 28, 2012 17:45

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Anal Tributary posted:

actually localStorage is very much synchronous

which is the only javascript client side storage that is synchronous

All the other storage options have synchronous standards but because javascript is poo poo implementing those standards isn't really feasible

Anal Tributary posted:

but i did some web sql stuff late 2010 when web sql was still a thing and

urgh

dark days, back then. dark days. it was the first javascript project i'd ever done and i'd never dealt with asynchronous/callback-based code, and it was before i'd discovered jquery, and basically i needed to scrape a shitload of web pages and save them into websql. so there were two layers of callbacks, and me trying to figure out how the gently caress to manage them ("wait you mean i can't just use a for loop? oh NOOOOOOo")

debugging it is even worse considering you lose most of the stack trace once you enter an asynchronous call

Anal Tributary posted:

nah, local storage solutions matter because they're going to bring web apps offline. which i guess pisses some people off, but whatever.

It should. You don't realize how unprepared javascript is for offline apps until you've tried to write one. Writing app code in javascript is loving horrendous, but creating an offline app is even worse

gently caress anyone who thinks web apps should support offline poo poo, if you want that then write a native app

# ¿ Apr 28, 2012 19:45

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ahhh spiders posted:

it's loving stupid to think this sorry. bye

yeah was about to say that too

how the gently caress are threads that hard

# ¿ Apr 29, 2012 21:29

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Deuterieux posted:

i skipped the lat few pages. are all programming languages, methodologies, and development environments still unmitigated pieces of poo poo?

much
like
your
POSTING

i barely GNU her! posted:

"yeah that smells like poo poo, but it's my poo poo"

don't sign your posts

# ¿ Apr 29, 2012 21:57

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Shaggar posted:

yes they have a few primitives that make sense and + is overloaded on strings for concatination.

but oh no this is too simple and makes sense. lets make everything able to operator overload so we can have a big lovely mess of crap like in c++. lets not stop there, we can have functions be primatives too so people can write even more unreadable code. thats just what i want in a collaberative environment where im probably working w/ idiots.

shagger was right?

# ¿ Apr 30, 2012 17:10

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Ronald Raiden posted:

also, reminder that Anal Volcano still needs to learn some languages that aren't javascript, also that just because you can make lovely 10 year old desktop applications in your browser doesn't mean you should.

Lol i still meet people today who brag about writing complete apps in javascript and my main question to them is why

# ¿ May 1, 2012 13:57

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rotor posted:

nope, its fine

no it really isn't

# ¿ May 3, 2012 07:18

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The company I work at has started a new project with modules in Coldfusion

And holy god I think it may be worse than php

# ¿ May 16, 2012 22:22

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rotor posted:

the terrible thing about web 'development' isn't javascript its browsers

Nah its a bit of javascript too

# ¿ May 17, 2012 05:26

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Tiny Bug Child posted:

noooo people aren't even supposed to like php

# ¿ May 19, 2012 15:57

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trex eaterofcadrs posted:

the best argument for java i've ever seen

java isn't too bad

the script has issues though

# ¿ May 19, 2012 16:12

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# ¿ Apr 28, 2024 04:23

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tef posted:

I think we've already seen this with many of the scripting languages being available on the two major language vms, jvm and the clr.

It is mostly social problems getting in the way, not technical ones.

are you saying that programmers have social issues?????

# ¿ May 19, 2012 16:35

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > p-lang thread: (now (have you (problems two)))