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What would be won by doing it in space?
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Feb 20, 2013 11:10
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There is a sad sad scene in Khan where the young ensign Scotty had hyped before dies after the Reliant's first attack. "He held his post" or something, and it's a perfect "war is hell" scene in the one sense of the word, where war is the necessary hell where men can show they're men. I understood you to mean that what you wanted was to have a Star Trek movie whose message was that war is a stupid, unnecessary evil, like Johnny Got His Gun or All Quiet ... I think the two Space Battles in JJTrek are both done nicely - the one at the beginning, where Kirk senior c-sections his son, and the other one where the Enterprise allows Spock to ram his IED into the Romulan Vagina Dentata. Smekerman posted:edit: Sorry, are you asking what more could happen in a conflict between starships in space? Because there are certainly more interesting ways to depict starship combat than "blammo, console explodes, Major Kira flies backwards but is helped by Lt. Worf to escape pod" and I don't know if the Star Trek 09 really touched upon them. Then again, I guess maybe it's hard to depict the fragility of the human body when 75% of the bridge crew needs to survive because they're "the good guys" and all the people that die are random redshirts. I guess trying to apply an aesthetic of something like Band of Brothers or Saving Private Ryan to something as inherently glamorous as Star Trek doesn't really work. It'd be nice if it did, though. cmhn74 posted:In the opening of ST09 a woman gets sucked out a hole in the ship pretty graphically. That's probably as intense as we're gonna get from Trek. The entire beginning is just good, especially the sounds. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 11:22
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:In Star Trek 2009, we see people sucked out into the silent void as they suffocate. An entire, populated, Earth-like planet implodes. Kirk is nearly devoured by a screeching abomination, shortly after his hands inflate into fleshy bulbs due to the side effects of futuristic medicine. Meanwhile, back at the start of the series, Star Trek 1979 begins with a transporter accident turning a dude inside out. The only inhabitants of Vulcan we're shown are - Spock's dad, who gets saved - a bunch of assholes racist against humans, who die - Spock's mom, who dies and seems to be the major stand-in for Vulcan, even though she's human and a total blank The TMP transported accident (two people) is truly horrific though. Way worse body horror than any Spine/Brain Worms in JJTrek/Khan. The worst part is the dialogue. "What we got back didn't live long. Fortunately" Brrrrrrrr. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 12:02 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 11:28
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Oh I just remembered the most cruel scene of all the ST movies. It doesn't involve much blood, or any future technology, just some people and some rope. When Kirk and Bones investigate the space station Khan and his guys have previously raided, we see the victims face down from the 2nd level promenade, and there's a touch of blood and we see the're tied up with ropes, but it's implied that Khan did something very unnecessary and very sadistic to them. It's real space station horror. Edit: Memory Alpha! The space station is Regula I, Khan is said to have tortured the crew and then slit their throats, "including the Chief". The guy dying in fulfillment of his duty is some "Peter Preston", who was overeager to go to space. I guess you could also read him as a critique of that type of person. Only, he foreshadows what's going to happen to Spock later on. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 11:47 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 11:40
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Alchenar posted:Showing the girl getting blown out of the Kelvin and the engineering space exploding at the start of the film has more importance (And then later, there is, of course.) Smekerman posted:Oh, I see. No, I don't think having a preachy "war is hell" message would be that fitting for Star Trek, but at the same time, I'd like for them to depict in better detail that land battles in the current era aren't just dirty space marines with a bandaged arm acting all gritty and badass War in DS9 just really sucks and everybody wishes it wouldn't ever happen. (Also, Star Trek has never been in any way been anything close to realistic.) I wanted to ask how you thought a War is Hell movie would profit from being set in space. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 11:57 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 11:47
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Speaking of screams, since you guys, being more perceptive than me, insisted on the dude being sucked into space at the beginning of JJTrek actually being a woman, I rewatched it and the scene is way worse than I had remembered it. I had only remembered it as a brief scene where you couldn't even tell what gender the person had. There's an explosion engulfing a figure, you hear her scream for help, she's holding onto some beam for a second, it's all very noisy and violent, with explosions and screaming and fire and fear, we're very near to hear in that scene, and then we see the outside of the ship, where it's suddenly absolutely silent, tranquility, and a limp far figure tries to hold onto the hull from outside the ship still, then drifts away into space, like a miniature doll. The sound editing throughout the whole first scene is strange though. At first, I thought they would contrast the completely silent vacuum of space with the noisy inside, with all the screaming and explosions. I loved how Firefly would use the silence of space to emphasize how it's a hostile, alien, or at least simply different, element, and wished they'd done that. But instead, they're just greatly muting some of the space scenes. The expected wooshes and pew pews are still, just barely, audible. It works, though I think total silence would have worked even better. And while the Kelvin crashes into Nero's ship, we hear the explosion, then a cut to Kirk's mom with the same totally muted sound from before. Abrams gives her the vast emptiness of space by repeating the implicit musical theme of space: silence. E: also, the abseiling action in engineering during evacuation is nice. E2: oh, another nice thing I hadn't noticed before. Kirk's mom, who's just given birth to Kirk while the dad rammed his space dick into Nero's fanged monster ...  And cut to ...  The evacuation fleet, tiny shuttles, in the same orientation and screen position as the woman, who is on one of them, was in the previous shot, with the same glowing giant in the background. (You can still see the debris from the Kelvin, while Nero's ship sits there in post-orgasmic/explosion chill. And one of the shuttle crew who saved Kirk's mom, a birth helper, is standing where the Kelvin's debris are in the space frame. Sex, birth, death, in space.) E3: Also, that scene ten minutes into the movie is a visual mirror image of another scene ten minutes before the end of the movie:  (It looks better in motion. Tiny fireflies!) Here, a second ship crashes into Nero's ship, but this time, it carries a meaner payload than Kirk senior: Spock. Then, by an act of new Spock, Nero gets sucked into the same hole he was birthed from at the beginning by an act of old Spock. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 13:43 on Feb 20, 2013 |
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Feb 20, 2013 13:09
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Well, how would it? It's actually not an argument, it's just a question. I'm not saying it wouldn't, I'm asking, what would it change?
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Feb 20, 2013 15:41
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Question to the people who read the comics last time (before 2009's Trek), and are reading the comics this time: do you think they make the movie more enjoyable, or perhaps less? Meaning, should I read them?
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Feb 21, 2013 17:30
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Yes, but fundamentally, most people, including me, aren't watching movies to evaluate them, but to enjoy them, so you just convinced me to get the comics 
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Feb 21, 2013 18:39
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Oh, I was just afraid they'd be detrimental to the enjoyment of the movie due to, I don't know, spoilering, or adding a bunch of unnecessary background that would only slow stuff down.
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Feb 21, 2013 18:53
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Thwomp posted:But here's the question: would reading the comics enhance or distract from the initial viewing of the film?
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Feb 21, 2013 19:47
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:It lets you talk about sensitive topics without explicitly talking about them, like have moral quandries that seem really weird and fantastic but are really the same kinds of thing we run into in real life, like racism. There's plenty of good episodes of Trek (and many bad ones) that try to talk about something contemporary by making it In Space with Foreheads. I wondered, is there actually anything that makes it better to do that stuff in space, than just talking about right here on earth? It seems that Scifi allows us to slightly change the perspective on a familiar, relevant topic, thereby optimally making it possible to see aspects of it more clearly, in a new light, without some of the biases keeping us stuck with our current biases. For example, the Enterprise episode where they meet a species with 3 genders, or the DS9 episode with the undying warfarers.
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Feb 21, 2013 21:15
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I have no idea why Abrams is even bothering with canonicity/call-backs so much. The TNG films didn't do that to this degree at all, neither did the TOS films (minus Khan), and he's doing a reboot, after all. I mean, it's not a bad thing, so far, it's working (Scotty killed Porthos!), but I don't get the motivation.
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Feb 22, 2013 18:04
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Generations is a half-TNG, half-TOS movie in my mind. Also, it's not a call-back to series specific stuff, it's movie Kirk they're reviving and killing.
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Feb 22, 2013 18:53
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Suddenly, I like the choice of song Wrt. my previous controversial statements about the Beastie Boys: I dunno, I guess they're a decent band. But here, they're used as a Sign for Rebellious Music, and that doesn't suit any song.
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Feb 24, 2013 20:41
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The song by itself, a different beast. In the context of a film scene that to me screams "Rebellious Youth!" way too try-hard, nah.
Cingulate fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Feb 24, 2013 |
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Feb 24, 2013 21:12
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I can see Mark Wahlberg doing a good Kirk Senior. Like his stuff in that last Oscar winning movie he did, I forgot, the Scorsese one. "Dive in head-first", yes.Goreld posted:The choice was intentional. They (ILM crew) mentioned it at a SIGGRAPH panel on the movie; apparently everyone working on the film, including Abrams, knew about lots of really obscure Trek stuff. I'm definitely on board with the choice of music now. "It's Sawbotage!" Also, Abrams being a Trek nerd is good and not unexpected when you consider the movie he made.
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Feb 28, 2013 12:32
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If he takes his work serious enough to only become a Trek nerd when he's called upon, that's probably even better. Cf. Nicholas Meyer
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Mar 1, 2013 00:36
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Aatrek posted:It's not the Enterprise crashing into the ocean.
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Mar 21, 2013 18:35
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Speaking of which, there seems to be more Uhura than Bones in the trailers so far, too.
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Mar 22, 2013 01:36
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FlamingLiberal posted:Early in the series, Starfleet wasn't a term yet. Instead the Enterprise was part of UESPA (United Earth Space Probe Agency), which sounded more like NASA and less like a galactic navy.
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Mar 22, 2013 18:53
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Kill the Enterprise in the 2nd movie, rest of the film series is gonna be about dune buggy racing.
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Mar 23, 2013 13:38
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penismightier posted:
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Mar 25, 2013 23:23
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My first instinct was to say I'm glad they didn't, but then I remembered the scene where Spock and Kirk buddy cop their way through Nero's Vagina Dentata is actually decent.
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Mar 25, 2013 23:40
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Rocket Ace posted:Honestly, is there a big, important reason why a ship cannot jump to warp from an atmosphere?
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Mar 29, 2013 12:05
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Timby posted:They dubbed over the awesome computer voice, for gently caress's sake.
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Apr 5, 2013 11:12
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I'm in the "ST could use some non-Bond plot-plots for once". Something where the solution isn't the evil ship exploding while its evil captain dies. On the other hand, ST09 was really good and the only serious problem was the lame villain, and Cumberbatch seems exciting, so I'm sure ST13'll be a good experience. feedmyleg posted:I've come around to him a bit, but man I still wish Helmsworth and Pine were switched around.
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Apr 20, 2013 11:38
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Zapp Brannigan posted:I'm surprised no one mentioned this in the ripping apart of the plot: Spock objects to being saved over violating the prime directive, then gets Kirk demoted because of violating the prime directive. Isn't what he's doing in the volcano also a violation of the prime directive?: Non-interference in the development or evolution of a primitive species? Or do they explain that away with a one-liner? He says something to the tune of "don't rescue me, they would see you." Does anybody know if there was a specific reason why they put new music over the early scene where the child is saved, and the villain meets his pawn? I liked the old (preview) music, even though I think it was a rip-off of some 80s/90s pop tune. Also, Beastie Boys. Cingulate fucked around with this message at 23:46 on May 14, 2013 |
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May 14, 2013 15:54
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Captain Hilarious posted:Completely out of nowhere nerd-rant: Do we really have to spoiler something that's, what, 40 years old though?
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May 15, 2013 15:12
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monster on a stick posted:Not a Star Trek movie I agree Harrison's plan was pretty dumb though. He masterminded all his targets into this room, and then instead of using a weapon with more firepower than an UZI, or simply walking in there and breaking some guy's neck, he gives Kirk the opportunity for a (nice) long scene while ineffectively strafing the big shots with Stormtrooper accuracy and ridiculously bad 23rd century firepower. I too can't remember any sensible motive for fleeing to Kronos (Q'uonos?) of all places, too. It was neither safe, nor a good base of operations. monster on a stick posted:Wouldn't the Klingons demand that the Federation turn over the officer that invaded their territory and killed a bunch of their troops? I'm not sure how we would have handled it during the Cold War, but given the choice between all-out war and throwing some guy under the bus...
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May 15, 2013 22:43
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Gatts posted:As long as everyone is pretty and can get laid. And achieve their dreams like a beautiful butterfly...like kids who want to be cats when they get older... Darko posted:For instance, the average American "black" (and I hate those terms)
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May 16, 2013 19:59
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WarLocke posted:It doesn't help that with how loving crazy people are nowadays, if you actually got a mixed-race actor to play Khan and then had him strafe the good guys' building and crash a ship into London they'd flip their loving lids about Space Al Quaida or whateverthefuck.
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May 16, 2013 23:26
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Piano posted:This was a pretty good sci-fi action movie, but I feel like a Star Trek story should explore a moral question and (hopefully) teach the viewer something about themselves in the context of a silly space parable. I have absolutely no loving idea what I was supposed to learn about myself from watching this, if anything. Liberty is good and fascism is bad! Oh, I never thought about it that way, JJ. Thanks buddy. Losing loved ones to terrorism does not justify going on a personal mission for vengeance with the intent of killing, rather than capturing and taking to trial, the perpetrators. Following such an unlawful order, even if it comes from a position of authority, could lead you to miss the signs of growing fascism and militarism within your own supposed liberal utopia. Generally, if someone's got a bone to pick with you, even if they're insane murderers, there probably is something about their cause that makes sense - they've probably identified a genuine problem in your way of living. For example, that you're training killers and letting them loose on other's territory, and that those killers, with nothing to live for but war and revenge for their families, will return and fly your own airships into your towers. Even if you have some token minorities within your crew. And your precision weapons won't save you because there will always be collateral damage and death. I admit that's fairly superficial though. On the other hand, it's a movie about space ships shooting at each other and a guy with prosthetic ears and green blood climbing into volcanos. Sanguinia posted:I will say that for the most part I liked it. Also that ironically I was more offended by Spock's body language during the Big Khan than I was the actual line. Rearing back like a werewolf and howling it to the heavens with bulging eyes and a god's eye camera angle? Even the original wasn't that silly. If he'd done the line resting his head against the safety glass and and curled up with grief, made it a dark, claustrophobic moment instead of a dumb explosive exultation I probably would have liked it. Maybe. Or not.
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May 17, 2013 10:16
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LankyIndjun posted:Why is it a silly metric? On the other hand, I think people are underappreciating Uhura in this movie. She's not used as a piece of meat (I know, that's hanging the bar low ...), she has two important, strong scenes (Klingon negotiations, and saving her Vulcan in Distress), she doesn't have to be rescued by the male protagonists in any of the scenes ... I think it's so important that she's not, as in so many other similar movies, treated as the hero's price. Kirk is NOT getting rewarded with sex from the highest-paid actress (or the second-highest paid ... errr, the other female speaking role) for beating the villain. She's number 4, after Kirk, Spock and Scotty, and number 4 is not equality, but she's been promoted compared to the source material.
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May 17, 2013 11:30
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Wasn't there a confession? I remember the bomber sent a spacEmail to Admiral Marcus.John ai Marre posted:I really enjoyed that Onion article back in '09 about the first JJTrek. Something along the lines of "Trekkies deride new movie as "fun" and "watchable"". It was a nice laugh-at-yourself moment for me, because there really is some truth in that. Trek is serious business, yo. I've seen every Star Trek movie at least 3 times and most of the series, I strongly prefer DS9 to Voyager, and I loved Into Darkness.
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May 17, 2013 16:30
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Mr. Flunchy posted:That doesn't mean it's a silly metric though, the Bechdel test is a genuinely interesting way to consider gender in film. Imagine the test gender flipped, practically every single film features two men talking about a subject that's not a woman. That said, it really wouldn't have hurt to have one women on board that ship, or actually, in that whole movie series whose main purpose is something else than being a sex interest or mother for either Kirk or Spock. For example, a sex interest for McCoy :3
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May 17, 2013 17:34
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Simply Simon posted:A lot of people seem to ignore that Bones explicitly says that Kirk was never really dead and still had some brain functions left or whatever when they froze him. The problem isn't finding some super cells that repair radiation damage. We can vaguely imagine nanites doing that right now even, flying around and fixing DNA, that is way more likely than warp drive or humanoid aliens sexually compatible with us or anything else in that whole series. The problem is that they would have to rush hard to put him under or he takes irreparable brain damage. With brains, the problem isn't so much the individual cells being damaged - maybe we can reliably repair damaged neurons and synapses in the future, that's easily believable; the problem is that if you have to repair that, and do it, you fundamentally change the brain. The person IS in the exact patterns in his head right now, and if the patterns are breaking down, the person is getting lost, irrecoverably. You wouldn't resurrect the person, you'd create a new person. You can transplant a liver, but a brain transplant is a person transplant. Of course, the point of the scene is to give Spock some FIRE while he chases after Khan and it worked beautifully. He's out for blood - literally. Mr. Harrison, you've just signed up to become a blood donor for a friend of mine. Awesome. Happy Noodle Boy posted:They kinda address this? When they shot out of warp they're right by our Moon and we get a short shot of Earth in the distance. They even say they're about 200k miles or kilometers (cant remember the unit). I just assumed that since poo poo doesn't magically stop (or does it with these ships?) in space they still had a good amount of momentum from abruptly leaving warp. ACTUALLY, it wouldn't work at all since it breaks the laws of nature, but ... I liked how massive the Enterprise seemed in the cinema. I saw it in 3D, and it definitely had a nice sense of scale (don't know how it compares to 2D). Cingulate fucked around with this message at 18:03 on May 17, 2013 |
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May 17, 2013 18:01
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Space Hamlet posted:Allowing them to be competent at their jobs is cool, but that doesn't change the fact that their personal motivations were entirely driven by the men in their lives. And how is Uhura's scene where she negotiates with the Klingons "driven by men"? She tells Kirk to keep it in his pants and let her handle the situation because she thinks Kirk's way would lead to them being killed. Alchenar posted:Uhura is literally given one job in the entire film and it's almost a significant moment when it's working but then we need a pretty unimpressive action sequence so she has to fail. I'm not saying they're feminist films, but at least "girl's only purpose in film is saving her love interest" is a step in the right direction from "girl's only purpose in film is being saved by and being love interest for male protagonist".
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May 18, 2013 17:56
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1st AD posted:The funny thing is that in the context of The Wrath of Khan, there is absolutely no reason for Kirk to deliver the KHAAAAAN line with such gusto other than him being a ham, because 2 scenes later it turns out he and Spock were in on a little joke that the Enterprise was up and running sooner than Khan expected. He knew he wasn't going to be marooned inside the Genesis planet.
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May 18, 2013 18:53
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Myrmidongs posted:I saw it yesterday, and while for the most part I enjoyed it, I also could not roll my eyes enough at the ridiculously lazy low-hanging fruit of a mcguffin introduced in the first few minutes. I was really hoping the whole deal with Khan's blood at the beginning was just a red herring and Abrams and crew wouldn't go for that, but they did, and wow did it rub me the wrong way. Come the hell on. This is the 23rd century, and we have been writing Trek episodes for how long? Don't be so drat lazy. I didn't see the scene with the lead actor "dying" right after we've been shown the resurrection serum twice as being in any way about the actual resurrection (neither the method, nor the question of if at all). Rather, it's there to give Spock a reason to Hulk out at Khan. Khan's been shown to be totally superior to anybody else at any form of combat. So Spock needs the motivation boost from seeing Kirk die to be able to take him on. That's the point of Kirk dying; not to make us worry for Kirk, but to make us worry for KHAN. And then, even the brother's bond isn't strong enough, we need the girlfriend to save the day.
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May 19, 2013 12:46
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