Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Here's the critique write-up I mentioned in the previous thread, Stupor:

Mike Works� Mega Workshopping Post

quote:

�Effective criticism requires both absolute honesty�which is a sign that you respect the writer�and absolute tact. You want the writer to leave the workshop with a feeling of possibility rather than failure. Be excited about the potential story you can glimpse in what the writer has done so far. Challenge the writer to ask more of the story, and convey your belief that he or she is up to the task. If you offer insincere praise for fear of offending someone, you�re lowering the bar and encouraging mediocrity. Assume the other person wants to grow, not be patted on the back, and offer your comments accordingly.�

- Kim Addonizio, poet

As the quote above alludes to, workshopping can be tricky business, but an invaluable skill for any writer. I�ve said this before, but I think critiquing and workshopping someone else�s story mainly benefits you more than it does them; once you gain enough confidence to properly dissect and discuss someone else�s story, you start to gain a harder and wiser eye when it comes to evaluating, and even creating your own writing. It�s like loving magic. Clap your hands three times and let�s begin.

1. Where to begin?

Sometimes the trickiest part to workshopping is knowing where to start. In the university workshops I�ve participated in, each student is assigned 2 (out of 30) stories to �introduce� � that is, before the roundtable discussion begins, they have to break down the story for the class and summarize the plot.

Here�s the checklist we have to go through:

quote:

When summarizing plot, identify:

~precipitating event (what happens to set the story in motion)
~main character's goal(s): the explicit goal/desire and its subtextual counterpart
~rising action: what stands in the way of her/him attaining those goals
~climax
~falling action: is the ending closed or open, goal attained or not

All fairly standard stuff, right? I mean hell, we recognize this stuff all the time when we�re reading stories. I know I do!

But do you recognize it when analyzing and critiquing? Ahh, that�s the big question. After reading a short story, we can feel one of a dozen ways; perhaps the story was really good up until the end? Or maybe the opening was a bit boring, but it picked up steam in the middle? Maybe you liked the main character, but not the story itself? Maybe the opposite? The big question is: why?

And that�s what the summarizing plot exercise above kicks into motion. I mentioned that my classmates and I had to address those questions only twice in a semester, but I can tell you that I used the above checklist when workshopping every single story in those classes. It�s a great, great tool for identifying early on what clicked for you in the story�s structure, or perhaps what didn�t. And best of all, it�s usually very easy. And if it isn�t easy? Well hey, you may have just discovered a vital weakness in the story.

Which leads us to�

2. The Questions

quote:

� What do we think this story is trying to become? What are its distinctive features? What seems to be the writer�s main interest while writing this?

� Where has the story succeeded? What are its strengths? Where can the writer feel a good job has been done?

� Where has the story so far missed the mark? What are its weaknesses? Where does the writer need to do more work? What more has to be done if it is to reach its potential? What advice would you give for improvements?

Above are three paragraphs, and you�ll notice they each have a separate line or viewpoint of questions.

The first paragraph contains questions that help to orientate you, the reader, as to why you felt this story was attempted in the first place. Every story is written for a reason. Every writer has a voice and has something they want people to read, whether it�s to entertain, intrigue, propose questions, etc� Answering these questions will help not only your attempted understanding of the piece, but will also help the author in seeing how people interpreted his or her work.

The second paragraph is filled with positivity, and this is vital (re-read Addonizio�s quote at the top of this post if you like). Listening and reading people workshop and critique your story can be absolutely brutal for a writer. It�s tough; you�ve taken the huge step of sharing your work with others, and it�s about to get criticized. People are about to tell you how you�ve failed. So you know what? You need to hear about how you�ve succeeded first. Because every story succeeds in some way.

And then we get to the lovely third paragraph. You need to hear about the issues or shortcomings in your stories. If you don�t, then there�s a very good chance that they won�t improve and become the loving amazing story they�re destined to be. We�ve all shown our work to friends and relatives and received the standard, �This is so good!� Getting praise feels good, and there�s no harm in it! But you need to have your work critiqued if you want it to improve. Don�t get me wrong, you can go back and edit a first or second or fifth draft and make it better� but there are simply going to be so many things that your own eyes will not catch that are there. Every single professional writer I�ve spoken to gets their work critiqued by at least two other professional writers that they know and trust (this isn�t including their editors). It may feel difficult and harsh to tell someone where their story is lacking, but if you do it honesty and tact, you will help make their story better. And ultimately, they should appreciate that.

3. Three quick sentences

quote:

Your story is about�

At first I thought�

But then I realized�

This is another great little technique for figuring out where a story has succeeded or come up short in its attempt.

Finish the first sentence with something overreaching: if you were talking about Jurassic Park, you wouldn�t say, ��dinosaurs ripping poo poo up!� You�d want to come up with something more like, ��whether or not man has the right to play God, and the consequences of doing so.�

Finish the second sentence with your honest first impression, perhaps the one you got while still reading the story for the first time, perhaps the impression you formed right after you finished reading.

Finish the third sentence with how that initial impression changed or evolved after finishing the story, contemplation, and perhaps re-reading it. How were you able to reach this ultimate conclusion? Did the story earn this depth? Perhaps your initial impression didn�t change at all? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

This is just a small little exercise to get your brain ready for�

4. Ze Details!

So you�ve got a firm grasp on what generally is and isn�t working with a story, but now you want to dive into specifics. Perhaps you think there�s an issue with the characters, but you�re not exactly sure how to explain it? Maybe something feels off (or on!) with the dialogue, but how do you summarize that?

Here are the 7 different components I analyze in every workshop:

quote:

Plot and Structure [consider: placement of scenes and proportion of scene vs. summary; climax, flashbacks; also: does this story need to be told, is it original or does it deal successfully with an old story in a new way?]

The narrator and the narrative Point of View [consider: whose story is this and do they bring something important to the telling of it; the pros and cons of the chosen point of view; voice and its consistency]

Characters [consider: are all characters suitably complex; is the main character shown under circumstances that reveal texture and contradiction in character; are these original, interesting, detailed and believable people?]

Dialogue [consider: is there enough; too much; is the dialogue sufficiently �literary� or does it sound like conversation or a play; does the author provide enough breaks to describe setting and give rhythm to the dialogue]

Setting and Details [consider: all the ways that setting appears in a story: natural world, cultural milieu, characters� possessions etc.: are details used consistently and often; does the author�s choice of detail show us the world in an original, evocative way]

High Points [consider: what makes this story unusually powerful, moving, inspiring to other writers? If it has none of these qualities, say so.]

Sentences and other technical matters [consider: strong verbs, effective and correct punctuation, tightening of sentences to eliminate weak words, concrete versus abstract, present participles, passive verbs, unnecessary repetition, typos, sentence variation]

This is a great list, especially when you�re not quite certain where a story may be lacking, but you know it�s somewhere. Go over this list and, most likely, you�ll find it. Hell, go over this list, and you�ll probably find a strong opinion you have with the story that you didn�t even realize existed! This stuff is for when you�re really ready to get into the meat and bones of a story, about what works and what doesn�t.

So there you have it. Those 4 sections are all I use every time I workshop a story. In our workshops, we�re required to write two pages of prose critique, and mark up a copy of the story with line edits. For context, I�ve randomly selected one of my workshop critiques from six months ago so you can see what a finished product might look like. Keep in mind that while this critique is given to the author to take home, the workshop classes are primarily discussion-based, and so while the �negative� may outweigh the �positive� in the text, that doesn�t mean it went the same way for the in-class discussion. And because I created this post mainly for online workshops and critiques, I�d probably include more of those positives in a written critique for one of these challenges.

Sample Workshop:

quote:

I�m going to jump head first into the narration of this story, because it�s a unique focal point for this class. Usually the major discussion topics in our workshops are structure and character or dialogue, but the use of the omniscient point of view in your story is an interesting decision. For the record, while I felt that the omniscient POV didn�t quite work in this draft of your story, I think it still can work. My issue isn�t with the fact that we know the thoughts of all of the characters, as there are some positives that you capitalize on early on in your story; by getting into the heads of all of these characters in the hotel, we get to know their motives and how they will potentially clash with one another. It�s incredibly intriguing. Usually the reader�s intrigue (in stories containing a third person limited POV) consists of trying to deduce what other characters are thinking and what their motives are. Here, we�re given their motives right away, so our thoughts turn to �how are these plain-set motives going to conflict and change.� And this is where I feel the use of the omniscient POV disappoints: for the vast majority of the story, all of the telegraphed motives actually happen. The POV takes away a lot of surprise we have for what these characters are thinking, which is fine, but that element of surprise if never filled in anywhere else. Examples of unsurprising or telegraphed events: Dawson coming to the hotel to get a servant girl (and getting one), Betty planning her escape (and escaping), Jim noticing his wife acting very suspicious with his meal before eating it (and getting poisoned to death), etc.

And while these are small, specific examples, I think it�s the strong opening premise that is let down the most by this telegraphing. The setup is intriguing: we get introduced to a multitude of characters one by one, almost all with different motivations, and with multiple conflicting expectations with what is going to happen for them. Despite this, very little conflict or tension is actually derived from this premise. Dawson is convinced he�s going to �better� the hotel owner to get what he wants, but as far as I can tell, he doesn�t really do anything special to earn this victory. Agnes is expecting to ensnare Dawson in her usual trap, but in what should be a surprising turn, she doesn�t, because� he�s different? We get told that she feels this way, but we never get any evidence as to why she feels this way. It doesn�t feel convincing. Jim�s decision to defy his wife should be a strong moment in the story, but I never really felt convinced of the importance of his character. He plays a very beta role compared to his wife, which could be okay, but then what�s the purpose or importance of Riley, who plays that role to an extreme? If this is a story that (partially) focuses on Agnes, a woman who dominates all men, getting bested by Dawson, then we really need to be strongly convinced that Dawson did something to earn his �victory.�

I think it�s good that our professor introduced �rate of revelation� so recent to the workshopping of your story, because I feel it�s the primary area that your revision can focus on. While an argument can definitely be made to switch this story into third person (subjective or objective), I think the omniscience call still work. We just need to be intrigued and have that intrigue pay off with surprise and substance.

In terms of setting, dialogue, and all else that pertains to the world of your story, I really enjoyed the choice of time and place. I�m currently reading a novel that takes place in the 1800�s in Oregon and California (called �The Sisters Brothers�, and I highly recommend checking it out at a library or Chapters before/when you work on your revision), and I was totally set on reading a western that takes place in Canada during that same time. Additionally, there are some great small details (the different Mile houses, the bricks tied to the dead bodies, the stack of hay Agnes had to sit on in jail), and I found myself wanting more of them. I think that part of the allure of reading historical (fiction) is the surprise and intrigue that comes with getting immersed in such a different time and culture. I�m not sure how familiar you are with Canada in the 1800�s (though I can almost certainly tell you that you know more than I do), but I�d suggest really going hardcore into research mode and use anything interesting that you think can help add to or at least flavour your story. While you did a nice job with setting and details, I found myself yearning for more historically unique dialogue. Apart from Agnes, the majority of the characters have fairly plain or common diction. While they do use non-contemporary terms like �missus� and �friend�, I felt that much of the dialogue could take place in contemporary times and, for the most part, fit. Riley�s dialogue sounds especially ordinary. Again, I�d suggest going into full research mode into historical literature (fiction or non) and examining their way of speech, sentence structures, etc. I think you might be surprised how close you already are to attaining this. I�d be remiss if I didn�t address Agnes� dialogue. I�m not sure if it added anything to the story. If the narrative explained at the beginning that she had a thick or near-impenetrable Scottish accent, and then proceeded to present her dialogue in �normal� English, I don�t think our impression of her character would change at all. I actually felt that the single paragraph on the bottom of page 6 conveyed more about her character than all of her dialogue combined. Though there�s nothing �wrong� with giving a Scottish character phonetically-written dialogue, but I�d like to see it serve the story in some sense. As far as I can tell, none of the characters have any difficulty understanding what she�s saying, yet I often did. While this could perhaps be used as a means to convey how people in that time and setting were accustomed to the Scottish people and their accent (as opposed to the modern reader), I never felt like this was a point that was attempting to be made.

But yeah, what I�m hoping you take away most from this critique is the importance of surprise and intrigue developed by the narration, and the incredible importance of having it pay off.

Congrats on the first draft and good luck with your revision!

I think we can up our effort in helping each other with our writing (and inadvertently improving a critical eye for our own work). So don�t be afraid! If you�re writing stories for others to see, you�ve already accomplished the hardest part. Critiquing and accepting criticism can be difficult, but it�s a worthy endeavor for any writer.

If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

Let�s make our writing better.

Mike Works fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Jul 16, 2012

# ¿ Jul 16, 2012 21:43

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 4, 2024 04:26

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

I was going to suggest just referring to them by their nicknames too.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2012 08:00

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

I'm having a title-related issue of my own, which is odd since I'm usually very good with titles. Here are the potential titles for a short story I'm mulling over:

Zombie
Living Dead
The Undead
Nature

Guess what the story's about! It's actually not a typical zombie story though: it stays with two kids who have been raised in isolation who are out searching for their mother. It's mainly psychological, how they were raised, their mindset from that upbringing, etc.

But how the story is resolved really does center around the concept of the zombie, so I think it's important enough to be the focus of the title. Only problem is so many terms for zombies have already been eaten up by popular media. The Walking Dead would be a loving perfect name for the story and I'm grumpy that it's taken.

The story's about 90% written right now (I'm taking my time crafting the climax + falling action), so I'm not sure how much it'd help posting what I can right now.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2012 06:55

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

The problem is that I've already found that detail, that spark, that encapsulating image... and it's a drat zombie. It has to be a zombie.

Honestly, this is the one aspect of writing that I feel I'm really, really good at. Almost every title I've come up with at least touches on the theme, creates a concrete image, is catchy... and is often a combination of the three.

I guess I'm less asking for help on finding a different focal point for the title and more asking any goons who happened to be raised in a family of zombies if they have a specialty thesaurus handy.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2012 07:19

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Nautatrol Rx posted:

Well, is there anything special or unique about your zombies, or are they purposefully as stock as possible? That's the part that's hard for me to get unless I see the story, but I'll try tossing out a few rewordings of "zombie" that might make you think of something:

Walking and Rotting
The Second Breath
Risen
Thoughtless Body
Southern Revival
The Stride of Corpses
Roaming Bodies
The Body That Trudges
Husks

Just a few words there that you can maybe mix and match.

Thanks for these, they're definitely worth working with. Where does "Southern Revival" come from? The story happens to take place in the southern states, so there could be potential there.

T-Bone posted:

just do what everyone else does n' grab a couple of words from Shakespeare

Something After Death (Hamlet)

That Flesh is Heir (Hamlet)

Death Will Have His Day (Richard II)

Another Room in Hell (Richard II)

Die All, Die Merrily (Henry IV)

We Owe God a Death (Henry IV)

Of Perpetual Night (Richard III)

A Dry Death (The Tempest)

I really like That Flesh is Heir and as an aside someone needs to use "Nothing in his life became him like the leaving it" as the hook in a zombie story

e: I really really really like That Flesh is Heir you better use it fellow hockey poster Mike Works

Hahaha, That Flesh is Heir is the one that really stuck out to me too, even before I read the rest of your post. The only problem I'd have with using it is that it'd feel a little dishonest, since I've read next to no Shakespeare (but I could use the Tempest one!).

But man, it is a good title.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2012 19:29

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

BirdOfPlay posted:

Curious, is the climax/end of 2nd act the revelation that the mother is now a zombie?

Yes and no.

quote:

Follow up, is that the first zombie in the story?

They find someone just before her, but I'm pretty sure he's not a zombie.

quote:

Cause if that's the case, using a zombie title might just lead to the reader sitting there waiting for the zombies to come piling out of their clown car. Dampening the "shock," if you were counting on it.

The zombies are touched on throughout the story; they exist as real threats. But you don't see any other characters (zombies or otherwise) until the climax.

Sorry for the ambiguity, but it'll make sense in the end!

# ¿ Aug 8, 2012 04:04

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

I enjoy marking time shifts using time-specific items/reference points within the context of our time period, or the story's time period. Here are two examples in that order:

In Story A, the majority of the piece takes place in the late 90's (Ally McBeal references, Trapper Keeper's, Chumbawumba, etc.), but the final scene shoots forward almost twenty years later. How did I signal this? Aside from the fact that the physical appearance and the living situation of the protagonist had changed (or reverted) drastically, I had her answer an email on her iPhone in the first few sentences. Simple.

In Story B (which happens to have zombies I don't know if you've heard of it), I have two flashbacks which are both purely dialogue. They don't have dialogue tags (nor quotation marks); they're just single line sentences bouncing back and forth. The main story follows an 18-year-old protagonist and his 8-year-old sister searching for their mother. The first flashback is a conversation between a younger protagonist and his mother just after his sister was born, and the second flashback is a conversation between an even younger protagonist and his mother when it was just the two of them. How did I (attempt to) achieve this? Context.

Here's the start of the first flashback:

quote:

How did it happen, Mother?
A virus made the first eaters. Then it spread.
Before I was born?
Yes.
Have you ever seen one?
I see them every time I leave and every time I sleep.
Have you killed one?
I have killed more than one.

And it goes on from there. But the first sentence alone indicates that it's most likely a flashback; the son is talking to his mother (who is missing in the present), and he's asking questions about information he's already relayed to his sister earlier in the story. The end of the scene features him asking a question about "the baby."

The second flashback comes just before the climactic scene, and while the content of the dialogue doesn't indicate right away that it's a flashback, the structure does, and after a few lines the context kicks in:

quote:

Are there other boys like me still alive out there?
Not like you. There are boys, but none of them are like you.
Did you bring back food this time?
I got you more than food. Close your eyes. Okay, open them.
What are they?
Cups. Special ones. One for you and one for me.
What�s this?
That�s a dinosaur. And so are these smaller guys. They�re big. Bigger than you and me. Which one do you want?

The plastic cups are introduced in the very first scene of the story, and play a fairly important role in terms of symbols throughout.

So yeah, aside from standard scene/paragraph breaks, I feel that the best way to indicate a flashback is through context, though I suppose it depends on your writing and narration styles too.

Mike Works fucked around with this message at 09:04 on Aug 8, 2012

# ¿ Aug 8, 2012 08:57

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Subway Ninja posted:

I'm working on the opening lines for my novel, and would appreciate a little feedback on what I've come up with. I'm not sure if most people would find these few sentences intriguing or off-putting:

---
With an emotional detachment born of professionalism and experience, Malen delicately grasped the genitals of King Perac with his left hand. This wasn't the most exotic request Malen had received from a client, but it was sure to be the most memorable. He slowly turned his gaze towards the head of the royal bed to meet his Majesty's empty stare.

"Nothing personal, your Majesty," he murmured, "but my client gave me very specific instructions, and a good businessman always honors his client's wishes."

His Majesty, Malen noted, did not respond.

The assassin grunted as his right hand wrenched free the dagger he had embedded in the King's chest. With a sigh, he turned back to the task at hand, steadied his crimson dagger, and began his work.
---

For some back story that would be explained shortly after this, the Queen had died giving birth only to a daughter, and the King refused to remarry in order to produce an heir. The general populace was somewhat distraught over this, and one particular individual decided to send a very pointed message regarding the King's lack of attention to his duties, i.e. emasculation.

I welcome any thoughts on this, as well as criticisms over my tenuous grasp of English composition.

The entire time I read your excerpt, I read it as a tomb raider/grave robber prying something valuable from a statue. This was my initial perception, and there wasn't really anything in your text to suggest otherwise.

In terms of line edits, I'd cut the first sentence in half and switch it around; those first nine words were pretty boring. Other than that, I'd watch for repetition. You have "Malen" in two consecutive sentences (sentences #1 and 2) and "Majesty" in three consecutive sentences (3, 4, 5). Other than that, seems good.

# ¿ Sep 7, 2012 05:12

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

4 of the last 5 short stories I've written have had no quotation marks/punctuation whatsoever. I would almost say that I write exclusively without them now, but it just so happens that the story I'm currently writing has them. And why's that? It fits the story.

Like many others, it started with Cormac McCarthy. I tried to read The Road four years ago and I hated it. Couldn't follow a drat thing. I was, perhaps, a young reader back then. One year ago I attempted to read the book again, and now it's easily one of my favorites. I then picked up Blood Meridian (a Western he wrote and is perhaps his most acclaimed novel), which partially inspired me to attempt my own.

For me, the decision on whether or not to use quotation marks harks to the story's tone more than anything. There are certain qualities, certain impressions you can (attempt to) feed into a reader's mind or subconscious when you embed your dialogue into the narrative. Personally, I feel it often gives a more earthy feel. Hardened and stripped. Bare.

I'll give you guys two examples. These are both from stories I've written this year.

This first example is from the second page of a western I wrote. It's 1858 and the narrator has woken up drunk and in a dirty tub. His name is Seth and the name of his identical twin is Elijah.

(click to enlarge)

This isn't the best example I could've picked of pulling off this effect, as it has a lot of "he said"s in it. As the story started to flow, those dialogue tags began to drop, but I wanted to show you an example from early in the story where little had been established.

This second example is from the fourth page of a contemporary short story that may or may not include a zombie apocalypse. It follows a pair of children: a 16-year-old boy (the narrator) and his 8-year-old sister. They're venturing out from their countryside plot of land for the first time in their lives to try and find their mother, who has gone missing for over a month.

(click to enlarge)

I felt that both of these stories exhibited all of those aspects (earthy, hardened, bare) that I mentioned above. And personally, I feel that stripping away the quotation marks helps in that immersion. It does require a closer read from the reader, but if you pull it off skillfully, then it starts to just meld together into a cohesive entity. If you do it right, the hurdle dies.

But as I touched on, I'm currently writing a story with quotation marks. Why? It's lyrical. Fantastical. It's set in a very real and natural environment, but it touches more on the poetic and incredulous around us: fireworks from a damaged but driven mind. It harks back to France and futurism.

In a sense, the stripped down nature of a quotation-less structure didn't gel. And it's odd, I almost knew that before I'd written a single word of the piece.

So basically punctuation mark removal can mean different things to different writers and readers, but that's my defense of the technique.

Mike Works fucked around with this message at 08:58 on Oct 18, 2012

# ¿ Oct 18, 2012 08:29

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

CB_Tube_Knight posted:

This sounds like one of the issues I have with literary fiction. Not to say it sounds pretentious, but seriously if you had to struggle through reading it the first time (and not because of something being wrong with you) then mission failed.

I want my story as presentable as can be to the largest audience possible within reason.

The vast majority of (contemporary) literary fiction that I've read over the past few years have had next to no hurdles whatsoever. I understand the notion of wanting to read the largest possible audience, but condemning all of literary fiction is pretty rash or shortsighted.

And again, I was a young and impatient reader four years ago. After I expanded my mind and gave the book an actual shot, it became one of my all-time favorites. You should really try reading it.

# ¿ Oct 19, 2012 10:07

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

CB_Tube_Knight posted:

I would like to say I will read it, but to be honest I don't think it fits into my type of book. Usually I stick to genre fiction, I gave some books a friend of mine recommended mostly because the recommendation came from her. I bore very easily with books and will just put them down if they bore me. All of the erotica I have tried to give a chance did this. Lord of the Rings did this. A Clash of Kings did this too.

A Clash of Kings? Really? What was the hurdle there?

# ¿ Oct 19, 2012 20:49

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Tartarus Sauce posted:

Hey, maybe you guys can help me with some plot humps.

Suppose you work for an organization which is currently involved in unethical and illegal activities. Previously, you've aided and abetted these activities out of fear and obedience, but recent events have inspired you to finally take a stand.

Most recently, you've smuggled a USB filled with information about the illegal activities to an outsider (let's call them the Mole) whom you believe is trustworthy.

NOW, the problems are as follows:

1) At a later beat in the story, I need two separate groups of characters to have a reason for seeking one another out, in order to join forces later. Now, that reason will likely have something to do with the aforementioned organization's dirty deeds (among other things), but what, specifically, should that reason be?

2)I want to conceal some of the information about this organization for the time being, in order to save a particular character twist for the sequel.

Right now, I'm thinking that the whistleblower gives that Mole an encrypted USB, and hides the encryption key in a separate location. One group of characters could have the USB, and the other group, the key.

PROBLEM IS, I'm not sure this even makes sense, from a character motivation standpoint--or, if it does, I haven't come up with a decent rationale for doing this. Why would you give someone data, and then not equip them with the means to access it? If you wanted to ensure that your top-secret info was safe with someone, how would you go about doing that?

Bonus question:

Suppose you're a third party who's become involved in all this. The Mole--whom you care about deeply--has since become sick with a severe, disabling illness. What would be your reason for choosing to take the Mole to their potentially-sketchy spouse, who has a friendship with your mortal enemy, and NOT to the two people who originally took the fall for assisting the Mole? Is there any logical reason you'd ever make this kind of decision?

The details don't matter much, because I'm just interested in whatever ideas pop up.

Are we helping you out with plot humps or writing the story for you? Pretty sure it's the latter.

I dunno, maybe someone else can help you, but when I read stuff as vague as "Imagine two groups of people, they need a motivation to come together, okay give me ideas", it doesn't really seem like I'm helping you over a small hurdle.

How about you come up with some ideas and perhaps bounce them off us?

# ¿ Nov 8, 2012 06:56

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

LaughMyselfTo posted:

So, I'm a really novice writer, and I've recently started a new project. It's both my first serious first-person-perspective project, and my first serious project with a female protagonist. Now, I haven't fallen into any of the obvious traps that have been brought up in the last few pages, like having the character objectify herself in a blatantly male way. But I'd just like to ask: Are there any other potential pitfalls I should watch out for?

On an unrelated note (well, it's related in that it's about the same project), I've been wary of worldbuilding, because in my experience and observations, writers who don't know exactly what they're doing with worldbuilding can get caught up in an endless loop of self-congratulating, masturbatory sperging for the sake of it. Do the other writers in this thread have any advice on balancing worldbuilding with more substantive, character-based and theme-based storytelling? How should exposition be handled to avoid turning your novel into a fictional, and therefore useless, edition of Encyclopedia Britannica?

1. When writing in first person, be wary of narrating like you're playing a videogame (character and all). "I turn the corner and see an object. I watch my hands tremble as I pick it up." etc... For some reason, I notice that many writers overly explain their transitions when writing in first person too ("I walk out of the room, closing the door behind me, and make my way into the kitchen"). Remember that you want to keep your reader close to your narrator, so instead of saying something like "I pick up the corn on the cob", which anyone in that room can see is happening, consider mixing it up with describing the sensation of the corn's head on your character's calluses or something along those lines.

2. It all depends on the genre, but I tend to think that the best world building is the kind that unfolds naturally within the narrative - the kind that doesn't stand out as an encyclopedia suddenly opening mid-exposition, breaking the prose of the story with wonderful made up facts. It can be tough to do depending on what you're having to explain, but the payoff is really great when you pull it off.

# ¿ Nov 26, 2012 19:08

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

FauxCyclops posted:

I'm writing a short story in first person present tense. I'm that guy.

What the gently caress does this mean?

# ¿ Dec 5, 2012 21:34

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

So are you saying that we should all expect your use of first person present tense to be the equivalent of bad fan fiction, except not really because you're just joking and it's actually going to be quite elevated?

# ¿ Dec 6, 2012 05:52

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

CB_Tube_Knight posted:

I didn't know brevity was a trashy taste and liking plot and characters over use of language was trashy taste. It's not an either or thing, but I can put up with a lot for a really compelling story.

I didn't know literary fiction sacrificed characters for language, thanks for the heads up.

# ¿ Jan 13, 2013 02:15

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Echo Cian posted:

This one? Wall Street Journal.

First paragraph:

quote:

Literature is not very popular these days, to put it mildly. According to the National Endowment for the Arts, nearly half of Americans do not read books at all, and those who do average a mere six a year. You'd think literary writers would be bending over backwards to ingratiate themselves to readers -- to make their work maximally accessible, straightforward and inviting. But no.

Stories should also be printed in size 16 font and not use big words. Also, sentences should be straight forward. Sentence fragments? (Are) Bad. People are reading less, so conform your fiction to whatever makes it easiest to read. This has been a message from The Wall Street Journal.

Seriously though, I read the whole article and I get what he's saying (and admittedly his points later on in the article are superior to his opening paragraph), but he's simply not very convincing. There is a definite visual aesthetic when it comes to keeping/scrapping quotation marks on the page, and that visual aesthetic does play a role in the reader's ingestion and internal compartmentalization of the information, in my opinion. Same as juggling sentence structures, paragraph sizes, dialogue/exposition balance, etc.

3 of the last 4 short stories that I've written are barren of quotation marks, and I think it's the right call for all of them. I kept the marks for one of them because, I felt, the content of the story and the tone and circumstance of the narrator merited their inclusion.

I want people to read my stories - I want lots and lots of people to read and enjoy them, but I'm not going to sacrifice their content in any way (beyond editing for stuff like word count and other journal-related issues) because Gus from New Hampshire couldn't get into Cormac.

I wrote my most recent story in second person, and one piece of feedback I received was, "It would be easier to read if it was in third or first person," which was a stupid piece of feedback, and I took it to heart solely so I could lay it out in a post like this one and spit on it for being pointless. If the story would have worked better in first or third, then we're talking. I like it in second. But that's another topic.

# ¿ Jan 24, 2013 03:58

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Nothing wrong with whitespace. Just make sure that you stay consistent with whatever you choose.

I've used all of these:

*

***

~

1 (2, 3, 4...)

-

---

...in the past, but usually only to indicate time shifts (ie from present -> past, and back again) or because they've been stories to be workshopped and the double-spacing between lines makes it more difficult to discern what is and isn't white space.

# ¿ Jan 27, 2013 20:29

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

I personally hate them, but almost a third of the stories I read in workshops use em. In my books, the heart of your story doesn't need some rear end in a top hat's quote to be made apparent (or if it does, then that's a failure on your part as a writer). Can they set the tone? Sure, but I find that 99% of the time they look like the author is trying to inject some authority into their piece. Check out this loving Hemingway quote about man's nature, now read my poo poo which is probably pretty good too.

They look like a celebrity endorsement to a lovely product. And often it's a dead celebrity.

That's my pessimistic opinion.

# ¿ Feb 5, 2013 04:07

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

I'm one of the most tech-heavy guys in my city, and I absolutely need to write my rough drafts by hand, for both fiction and screenwriting. The impulse to jump around and edit in a Word processor is just far too tempting for me.

When I'm entering my handwritten stuff into Word, I'll edit on the fly, and I'll also often write from scratch in between scenes too, but not from the start.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2013 22:06

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Great Horny Toads! posted:

The first thing the reader has to know, in most cases, is what business-as-usual looks like. Set up the everyday world, then let the Kool-Aid Man bust in.

Definitely disagree with that.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2013 19:57

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Stuporstar posted:

Screenwriting advice tends to put the inciting incident at the end of act one, but there should be another to kick off the story right at the start. You need something to get your characters moving at the beginning, even if it's small. This doesn't mean you have to start in meda res.

You're thinking of the first Plot Point (at the end of act one). The Inciting Incident comes with the first 10 pages/minutes.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2013 05:10

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Yeah, it can be pretty loosey-goosey. I just wrote a 30 page screenplay where the inciting incident happens right before page 1. I think it works in that instance.

Whereas for the two short fiction stories I've recently written, the first one doesn't have a true 'inciting incident' (it's more of a gradual build where different conflicts and problems pile on), and the second story's doesn't occur until the third page.

The story I wrote before that one, the inciting incident happens in the second paragraph.

So yeah, it really does vary from story to story. Here's a nice piece of advice when it comes to writing short fiction and trying to ascertain where to put your inciting incident:

Don't write anything boring.

That first sentence -> second sentence, second sentence -> second paragraph thing is a pretty good ideology to follow. Hook em. Keep em hooked. Bam. Done.

# ¿ Mar 20, 2013 06:46

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

My suggestion for new-timers when it comes to hearing people say "just read (a book)" is to do this:

Read something purely as a reader - forget the critical, analytic writer part of your brain. Just read it. Hopefully it's something you'll enjoy.

Now, when you hit a part of the story that you really enjoy, that's when you stop and ask yourself, "Why did I enjoy that part so much? What made that one part work?"

That's when you do some reverse engineering. Maybe it was how the author introduced their characters and/or plot points (rate of revelation is a great tool to work with). Maybe it was the way they structured the chapter/story. Maybe it was something surprising said or done by an interesting character.

You always want to have one eye open when reading for sentence-level stuff (grammar, diction, structure) that you can poach or build from for your stuff, but don't worry about allowing yourself to get lost in someone else's writing; you have to experience what strong fiction can do to a person almost as a reminder, a refresher.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2013 19:11

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

When I get home tonight I'm going to throw a wet towel around my bathroom to see what it looks like when a vagrant gets struck by a car.

# ¿ Jun 15, 2013 06:14

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

That Writing Tools book should be essential reading for everyone in this thread.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2013 20:40

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

ViggyNash posted:

It supposed to be a lot like Dan Brown's body-hopping third person style

This makes me sad. I think I'm going to leave the internet for a while.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2013 01:51

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Qwo posted:

One thing I think is important that most writers take for granted is that your chapters should all be roughly the same length. I never noticed it before, but when I read a (bad) book recently, I was surprised by how much it annoyed me that one chapter would be 10 pages, another 50, and the rest somewhere in between. Readers usually put books down at chapter breaks, so it helps the reader's patience to keep it consistent.

It's definitely not something to worry about on early drafts though.

I'm reading a (good) book right now that invalidates this. Here are the three most recent breaks:

Chapter 4: Eleven pages
Chapter 5: Three pages
Chapter 6: Fourteen pages

So no, all of your chapters do not have to be roughly the same length. That is not a rule.

# ¿ Aug 9, 2013 02:29

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Elaborate on what you mean by "imprint".

# ¿ Sep 10, 2013 23:00

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Chernabog posted:

I mean to make it as if they are the ones living the experience rather than me, but using myself as a starting point.

Here's an example.
I start in 1st person:
"I am sitting at the computer writing X and Y and feeling blah blah blah."

Then I change to second:
"When you are sitting at the computer, your back starts to hurt, your eyes feel dry and whatever else."
"You rub your eyes and stretch but you don't want to quit"
"More stuff in 2nd person"

Finally:
"This is why I don't sit at the computer for too long"

Edit:

The reason is because I feel like it is stronger when I say it in second person, as I am basically forcing the reader into the narrative. However, it is based on something that I personally think and feel so starting on second person feels awkward.

Edit 2: Never mind, I changed it all to second person. Thanks all.

Yeah, I'd actually argue that you're not (truly) actually changing it to second person in that example. If you start off with "I", then switching to something like "When you're sitting at the computer...", it still comes across as a first person narrator talking, only trying to put (whoever he's talking to) in his shoes.

If you're truly switching your draft to second person, I'd question why. I love second person, but it's often used for more than "forcing the reader into the narrative" (which all POV's do).

# ¿ Sep 11, 2013 01:43

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

For those of you arguing that a story doesn't need a theme or perhaps moral, I'm curious as to what some of your favorite literature/novels/short stories are that don't have any themes or morals?

Genuinely curious.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2013 20:06

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

systran posted:

I THINK there is a tense shift in here, which sucks, but there is enough going on in this opening that I want to read on. Explaining the logistics of such a ridiculous musical (and that something went wrong with those logistics) works for me and makes me want to know more about this weird premise. To be fair, the prompt GAVE HIM/HER this premise, but he/she at least was smart enough to put that into the opening line! This author flubbed the middle and stuck the ending, so I came away with a favorable impression even though the middle of the story was kind of boring.

There's nothing wrong with that tense shift, so long as it remains consistent throughout the story.

# ¿ Oct 15, 2013 01:58

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Mad Revolt posted:

There's also Neil Gaimans idea that someone saying a piece didn't work for them is almost always right, but when someone tells you what exactly is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong. Criticism from readers tends to be a lot more helpful than criticism from writers

Completely disagree, though it depends on the reader and writer of course. Workshops are invaluable.

# ¿ Oct 22, 2013 08:29

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Just to chime in:

I recently completed my Creative Writing BFA and the gist of what my professors and the MFA candidates said were multiple submit to your heart's content if you've never been published. Be sure to keep track of all of your submissions, and withdraw any multiple submissions immediately if you story gets published (but don't tell them why).

Granted this is applicable to literary journals, so it might be different if you're sending out to sci-fi/fantasy mags.

But yeah, once you have a story that you think is publishable, send it out to 5 different journals.

You run the risk of pissing off an editor, but there aren't many editorial boards that remain the same for 5+ years. If you've never been published, getting published is pretty important, and waiting 9+ months just to hear "no" from one place is unrealistic.

These standards apparently change once you have been published, but the upside of that is you'll now be sending in cover letters with a publishing credit to your name.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2014 02:55

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

I'll post a great cover letter template if I can find it when I get home tonight.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2014 01:09

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Mr_Wolf posted:

Can i ask for some recommendations of short stories people like on here? I really need to start reading a lot more than i currently am and would appreciate some new material.

The O. Henry Prize Stories collections are an amazing value in terms of quality/amount of short stories and overall cost.

Here's a link to their site: http://www.randomhouse.com/anchor/ohenry/

And here's an Amazon link to one of the more recent collections: http://www.amazon.com/The-Henry-Prize-Stories-2012/dp/0307947882/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_y

# ¿ Jan 30, 2014 03:55

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

General Battuta posted:

Just got two offers from agents on my first novel and an interview at Bungie Studios for a writer position. To everyone mired in the loneliest, bleakest parts of writing, there is hope in this world

I'm curious, what's your writing background and what did you send it to Bungie to get the interview?

# ¿ Feb 13, 2014 06:52

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

elfdude posted:

I have to say, the individuals who typed the most were definitely the most helpful. I wonder why?

I'm not attempting to use this thread as my personal grammar tutor, or punctuation if you're a stickler. I was searching for advice on how to improve my writing. Personally, I feel that punctuation is a minor issue in most of my work, but

Nnnnooooooo.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2014 05:00

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ¿ May 4, 2024 04:26

Mike Works: Feb 26, 2003

Heroes Die is a good recommendation for action/fighting scenes. The author's a big martial artist and it shows in his writing.

# ¿ Feb 24, 2014 07:25

The Something Awful Forums > Archives > Comedy Goldmine > Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion