Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion

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Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

This is a real thing that exists.

The Emotion Thesaurus: A Writer's Guide To Character Expression
http://amzn.com/1475004958

I haven't read it or used it so this isn't a recommendation, per se. I think relying on this book and others like it could result in pretty cliched writing. It's probably better to observe people in real life and make your own.

# ¿ Dec 19, 2013 21:02

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 04:33

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

magnificent7 posted:

I found it in an article on fastcocreate.com, in reference to a book I ended up buying (Wonderbook).

Have you read and enjoyed anything by KSR? (Or Marquez, for that matter?) I don't think that the quality of a writer's advice is always directly proportional to their writing ability, and in any case, KSR is an award winning author with a very strong fan-base. But that said, he writes a very particular type of hard sci-fi. Many people feel that his books are too heavy on exposition and too light on plot. He says that's what most interesting to him is writing about what's not "us," and for him that includes the logistics of mining asteroids, etc. but that's a pretty broad definition of exposition, since it's certainly possible to write about what's "not us" while showing and not telling. Which you would you rather read? A scene where an asteroid mining ship breaks down and the hero has to repair it, or an instruction manual for repairing it?

Similarly, Marquez writes absolutely gorgeous books that I wish everyone would read, but not everyone does, mainly because they are incredibly dense and slow to develop (in the most delightful ways.) but if you want to write about.... I believe it was 50-foot spiders, zombies, and parasitic aliens? You might find this advice is not right for you or your market.

Finally, KSR does not speak for the entire world of literature, and his description of "show-not-tell" as a zombie rule does not actually make it so. This guideline (not rule) continues to be passed around because showing is important and something many beginning writers need to improve upon. Both telling and showing are important to a story, and using them each judiciously is key.

Latching onto "god-is-dead" advice like this can be just as bad for your writing as clinging to the traditional dogma like a fundamentalist.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2014 02:13

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

General Battuta posted:

(Also, I hope someone's made it clear that very few people make a full time living as a writer, and no one as a short story writer - though I suspect you know all this by now.)

NOOOOoooooooo

I thought with sim-subs, though, which ever publication accepts it first gets it. So if you submit to Analog and Doc Kloc's Science Fiction Mag, and I accept first, you withdraw from Analog. Not string me along for a month waiting to hear back from your preferred market. In which case Blue Squares should withdraw from the contest. (Depending on the specific rules, I guess.)

Of course, if it's a tiny magazine you can screw them with few consequences, but you're still screwing them.

# ¿ Jan 3, 2014 21:00

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Symptomless Coma posted:

Do tell.

He made up publishing credits.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2014 18:05

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Blade_of_tyshalle posted:

So if he'd just been honest, we'd all be spared his obnoxious fans? Son of a bitch.

Doubtful. His first job was as a journalist and I'm sure if he hadn't gotten that gig, he would have gotten another writing job soon enough. It's not like if you don't get some magical one job you disappear or something.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2014 18:25

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

lunatikfringe posted:

Two more questions I didn't see answered yet (apologies if they were answered earlier and I missed it)

1. Are there recommendations for/against the use of foul language in character dialogue? Such as it is OK to use occasionally, but too much cheapens the quality of the narrative? Or does its use in certain situations enhance realism? (Many people swear/curse/etc during those "Oh poo poo!" moments)

2. How to best convey human racial "traits" without outright using ethnicity? Do you subtly describe physical looks like skin tone? Id like certain characters to be portrayed as varying ethnicity but not have to say "The mysterious voice stepped out of the shadows, revealing herself to be a middle aged asian

[quote="lunatikfringe" post="424848739"]
Two more questions I didn't see answered yet (apologies if they were answered earlier and I missed it)

1. Are there recommendations for/against the use of foul language in character dialogue? Such as it is OK to use occasionally, but too much cheapens the quality of the narrative? Or does its use in certain situations enhance realism? (Many people swear/curse/etc during those "Oh poo poo!" moments)

2. How to best convey human racial "traits" without outright using ethnicity? Do you subtly describe physical looks like skin tone? Id like certain characters to be portrayed as varying ethnicity but not have to say "The mysterious voice stepped out of the shadows, revealing herself to be a middle aged asian woman."

When I have questions like this, I usually turn to my favorite books to see how other authors have handled similar situations. Most (all) writing rules are soft. They are guidelines, and cannot be reduced to absolutes. For any rule there will be a thousand exceptions, and an author who broke it successfully.

Reading books, especially when looking for something in particular, is like taking a master class on different ways to apply the guidelines. It puts tools in your tool box and helps you to develop an intuitive sense of how the guidelines work.

So what are your favorite books in the genre you are writing? And in general? How do they handle teams, cursing , and ethnicity?

# ¿ Jan 24, 2014 19:44

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

magnificent7 posted:

That's really what's it's all about. And if you're going out of your own comfort zone/genre, then look at examples in that genre. For instance, my favorite writers do not write Young Adult novels, so... relying on Stephen King to indictate how I'd write YA might not be advisable.

That's why you should really read in the genres you're trying to write. If you hate reading YA, you're probably not going to enjoy writing it very much or be able to write it well. It's also why you should read broadly. If you only read Stephen King, you're only going to see how Stephen King has handled these problems/questions. You want to put more tools in your tool box than that.

On the other hand, reading outside your genre is a great idea, too. Basically the more you read, the better.

Fiction Writing: Advice and Discussion: Read More, Close Thread.

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 02:19 on Jan 25, 2014

# ¿ Jan 25, 2014 02:08

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

3Romeo posted:

Exactly.

Take a look at Deadwood. Part of what made it memorable--especially in the third season--was the dialogue's mix of iambic cadence and modern vulgarity (and, of course, the actors and actresses that were able to pull it off).

I mentioned it before, but it's worth repeating: the story is the boss. Story dictates every single thing you'll do to serve it. If swearing serves the story, you should absolutely add as much of it as you need to. If it doesn't, don't use it. But be honest about it. If you have a character who's posing and trying to sound tough, drop in fucks and cockbites and cuntmonkeys. But if you're writing a book where the point of view is from e.g. Pope Francis, you might want to reconsider.

That said, Chairchucker is right about one thing: you run the risk of alienating part of your audience, depending on how far you go. Lots of readers are touchy about that sort of thing. But honesty needs to trump that consideration. Honesty and irony. A nun that swears can be an interesting character. So can a non-swearing secular vegetarian mass murderer.

So can a nun who doesn't swear and a mass-murderer who does.

Not every story requires swearing. Not every author needs to be willing to tell every kind of story or to use every word. Unless you are reading a fairly narrow category of books, you have probably read several books that contain no swear words and didn't even notice.

Swearing is optional most of the time. I would say 95% of the time, maybe more.

Every guideline in writing boils down to "do what works." Sure, swearing can work. Sometimes it might even be the only thing that works. But ultimately what works is subjective, and each author has to figure it out for themselves.

I say the best way to do that is by reading a lot of fiction and getting a "feel" for it, rather than trying to distill some sort of formula. All the guidelines you end up with are subjective anyway. "If it serves the story." What does that mean? How can you tell? I can't answer that, but as you read and write, you start to develop a sense for it.

Sometimes you can take a specific example and break it down, and analyze it, and figure out exactly why that one thing works there. But it won't be a universal rule. In fact, something else might have worked just as well. And you can be certain that another author somewhere has done the opposite and made it work.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2014 00:21

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

neongrey posted:

No, because the awkwardness in phrasing you get from avoiding swears in way that their absence is noticable is a really good way to make something an unpleasant read.

If you don't need them don't use them, but conscious avoidance for the sake of it is painful.

It's really not that noticeable, though. John Grisham doesn't use any swear words and no one is like "where were all the swears?" It's really not that hard to write without them in most cases. If it's hard for you, go ahead and use them, but don't act like all books with out curse words are painfully awkward.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2014 02:49

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

neongrey posted:

That's my point exactly, yeah. I was really only arguing with the 'never swear ever' camp. And when you start framing your language around avoiding swearing it's just not going to sound natural.

You lose a certain amount of expressiveness when you start closing yourself off from a big category of words. This is one of the standard showcases for what you can do with swearing, and it's deliberately contrived, of course-- you wouldn't re-create the scene or anything, but there's a lot of articulation you can get. When you lock yourself out of specific classes of words, you lock yourself out of a lot of tones and connotations.

Except there is no "never swear ever" camp. There is one poster who said that he personally would never use swear words. No one is saying no one should ever use swear words ever. Several people are saying a willingness to curse isn't necessary to be a good writer, and I don't know why you keep fighting that. You seem to think that avoiding profanity requires some big, elaborate, obvious work around, but that just isn't true. There are thousands of books out there without profanity that prove this. Curse words also aren't a "big" category of words (it's like 5-10, come on), and avoiding them doesn't put some giant limitation on your expression.

# ¿ Jan 26, 2014 05:01

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Martello posted:

I have this idea that if you can't "just sit down and write" then you may not be a writer.

I disagree with this, because I find it hard to just sit down and write :P

That said, sitting down and writing is a skill you can build with practice. Start by sitting down with a pen in your hand and staring at a piece of paper for 30 minutes.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2014 03:22

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

^^^^^ lol Crabrock :/

Martello posted:

Point proven.

For real though, this is true:

And for ravenkult and anyone else getting butthurt, I was half joking. I go through stretches where I don't write anything either, though that's usually because I'm too busy with other stuff. But there are times where I sit down, look at the screen, and nothing comes. I know we all write differently, I've said as much in this thread more than once. What I mean is, if you have to use all these systems and psych yourself up and read books and buy Scrivener and blah de blah blah, you may not be cut out for it.

If those systems work, then I don't see the problem. You don't have to write everything in notepad or on napkins to be a "real" writer. You don't have to avoid everything that will make your life easier or give you added motivation in the name of "just doing it."

I have to psyche myself up to do a lot of things, but I do them. I don't discount them because it took effort to get going. It took me like a year to psyche myself up to climb Kilimanjaro, but I still climbed that drat mountain.

If writing makes you miserable, you're probably doing something wrong, but that doesn't mean the only answer is to throw up your hands and give up. The idea that only certain people "are" writers, and that writing comes easy to "real" writers is pretty silly in my opinion. And unnecessarily discouraging. Writing is a skill, not only the mechanics of writing well, but actually figuring out how to get your butt in the chair/words on the page. That part might come easier for some people, but those aren't the only people who can or should write.

I do think that too many people are looking for a magic bullet--something they can buy (Scrivener! Fountain Pens!) or some trick to make butt-in-chair/words-on-page effortless. It's better to just start making the effort. Lots and lots of effort. But trying different things isn't going to hurt anyone, as long as they don't lose sight of the fact that ultimately they have to write. That's the bottom line.

I don't think it's useful to say "if x you're a writer," or "if y you're not a writer." Writing is something you do. Don't worry about your (or anyone's) identity as a writer; write stuff.

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 19:42 on Feb 7, 2014

# ¿ Feb 7, 2014 19:40

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Sitting Here posted:

A bunch of good advice, including:

Figure out when you are procrastinating!

I would add to this: figure out WHY you are procrastinating. Chances are it's because you don't know what to write or you aren't that excited about the next thing you are about to write. That means you need to fix those problems.

Pick up your pen (put your hands on your keyboard) and write down what you don't know. Write down what happens in your next scene and why you don't like it. Figure out what you need to know (keep writing/typing) or what needs to change to make the scene exciting. Now try writing again. You can also jump ahead and write that scene that is bursting out of your head and you are trying to hold it in because you aren't there yet. Or the witty line of dialogue that won't get out of your head. There's no rules about writing things in order.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2014 00:49

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

A good way to learn about grammar is to read about grammar. A quick google search for "grammar" will turn up lots if basic resources. You could even search for "grammar basics." If you want a physical book, you can search Amazon.com for grammar books, too.

Several books on the mechanics of writing have been recommended throughout this thread. Reading this thread would be a good place to start if you are overwhelmed by the number of choices on Amazon.com. In case that is too intimidating, here are two that I like: Strunk & White is the most "classic" book, but it has received criticism for being too prescriptive and not following its own rules. Eats, Shoots & Leaves is more modern and has panda bears on the cover. Both will help you learn where to put commas, though.

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 23:30 on Feb 13, 2014

# ¿ Feb 13, 2014 23:27

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Edit: you can safely replace "grammar" in this post with "punctuation," which is more specific and possibly more helpful.

elfdude posted:

I actually own eats, shoots & leaves and I think reading through that book was the first time I really understood that writing wasn't an organic anything goes phenomena but rather much more akin to a mathematical equation. I've definitely invested a lot of time reading through this thread but general studies rarely compare to a direct answer.

If you want to learn a specific rule, look up that rule. I gave you recommendations for sources that cover the basics and specifics, because you have repeatedly stated you lack the fundamentals. This thread is not your personal grammar handbook. There are plenty of well-written grammar resources available, including many for free on the Internet. Nearly all of these resources answer specific grammar questions in a direct and accessible manner. You can also look in Eats, Shoots & Leaves, since you already own it.

quote:

I definitely understand the idea that reading leads to an improvement in writing overall but I'm also someone who prefers to be mathematically exact. That's difficult when you don't possess the fundamentals to really view grammar in those terms however.

If you need to learn the fundamentals, learn the fundamentals. This thread is not your fundamental grammar handbook. There are plenty of well-written grammar resources available, which cover the fundamentals. Many of these resources are available for free on the Internet.

quote:

No. It's actually the opposite. I've been fed easy fixes my entire life mostly because I skipped the long but thorough pathway as a child. What I want to understand about grammar is the technicalities to the point that I can reliably look at something and say this is grammatically correct and here's why, vs this isn't grammatically correct and here's why.

If you need to learn the fundamentals because you missed them as a child, then learn the fundamentals. Don't expect this thread to provide you a custom tailored course. If you feel hampered because you skipped the grades where they covered how to diagram a sentence, then for the love of god, do a google search for how to diagram a sentence.

You complain that you were only fed quick fixes as a child, but now you're asking us to feed you the long answers, too. Go find them. It's not hard.

quote:

Thank you for the suggestions.

You can thank us all you like, but you're not going to make any progress until you quit making excuses for why they aren't the perfect suggestions for you.

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Feb 14, 2014

# ¿ Feb 14, 2014 00:50

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Snowcrash has some pretty anime action scenes.

# ¿ Feb 22, 2014 11:25

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Riftwar, Dragonlance, and Sword of Shannara are all 30+ years old. They might be what you think of when you think "fantasy," but they are not representative of the current fantasy market. There are plenty of fantasy novels that are not Tolkien fan-fiction-- in fact probably most of what is being put out today.

Edit: okay if anything with magic or races other than humans is a Tolkien-derivative, then maybe not, but that's a pretty huge definition.

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 18:04 on Feb 25, 2014

# ¿ Feb 25, 2014 18:00

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Soulcleaver posted:

The most recent Tolkien ripoff I can think of is Eragon. A professional publisher probably gets a dozen similarly uncreative submissions in a day.

Eragon was also written by a literal child. I am trying to think of things that don't include the "tropes" listed by 3Romeo, but since his list would exclude things like Beowolf (castles, magic, other races) and The Oddesey (travelogue, magic, other races) as "Tolkien-Derivatives," it is going to take me a while longer.

Edit: if you want to complain about fantasy being derivative, it's all urban fantasy vampire poo poo now, so blame Laurel K. Hamilton or something.

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Feb 25, 2014

# ¿ Feb 25, 2014 19:59

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

I agree. Start a file/notebook/whatever for project 2 and start writing stuff down. That will get it out of your head so you can (hopefully) work on book 1, but also save it for when book 2 starts.

Also if you are like me, you will realize that the many ideas you have are just the same few ideas popping up again and again

Edit: the good news for me is that writing down those ideas makes room for new ones, and so on.

# ¿ Feb 27, 2014 01:20

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

JuniperCake posted:

But I feel like Twilight is a good example of what could happen if you choose to ignore the implications in your own writing, and you aren't sufficiently self critical.

An example that shows you can do all that and then sell over 100 million copies of your book and have an insanely successful movie series made and never have to work again and be soooooo rich.

Time to tone down your awareness and self-criticism, guys. Rake. It. In.

# ¿ Mar 13, 2014 21:31

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

shooz posted:

Completely unrelated to the above discussion of the devil, but when do you know it's time to abandon a story?

There is no set answer to this, but I don't agree that you have to finish EVERYTHING you start.

Is it making you miserable? Are you sick of it? Has it been 5+ years since you started? Does it have problems you can't seem to fix? Do you want to work on other things but feel guilty? Is that guilt keeping you from writing anything at all? These are just some considerations, not hard-line rules.

You don't have to drag your way through something that you hate just because at one point you didn't hate it. Put it away. Start something new. Maybe you'll even hate it less later and can come back to it. Or recycle some of it's ideas into something new that excited you.

If you find yourself abandoning everything you start, it might be time for some introspection, but there's no shame in walking away from something that's not working.

# ¿ Mar 15, 2014 17:59

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Blast Fantasto posted:

I know I need to start writing more during the week to get anything done.

I'm going to take a (probably unpopular?) stance here, and say that you might not. Everyone has to figure out their own way to fit writing into their schedule, and while writing every day or nearly every day works great for a lot of people, plugging away on the weekends might work just fine for you. If you're unsatisfied with how much you're getting done on the weekends though, here are some suggestions:

1) Write more on the weekends :P
-- try to gradually increase the amount of time you spend writing each weekend, until you are hitting the numbers you want
-- use time during the week to work on outlining/planning what you are going to write on the weekend so when it's time to write, you can sit down and write, not figure out wtf is going on with your story
-- move all your chores and errands to week days, so you can devote the weekend to writing and chilling.

2) On week days, segregate your fiction writing, physically and mentally, from your copywriting.
-- schedule your fiction writing like you would a planned activity. Put your butt in the chair for that time period and don't do anything except write or stare blankly at the computer screen/your notebook. Try a few different times if the first one isn't working for you (some people like to write first thing in the morning, others in the afternoon, etc. Depending on how flexible your work schedule is, you might be able to try all kinds of times, weeeeee!) Also pay attention to whether or not you need a break between work and fiction writing. Some people do best jumping straight from one to another, but others need to chill out, eat dinner, take a bath, whatever, before starting to write. It really depends on how braindead you are after work and if you can take a break but still motivate yourself to restart later.
-- Experiment with different forms of goal-setting. Personally, I'm a fan of the pomodoro method, which is essentially work for 25 minutes, take a 5 minute break. I don't worry too much about how many words I write during each pomodoro (though I tend to hit between 500 and 750 on average). Some people find interrupting themselves every 25 minutes is a terrible idea that ruins their concentration. Other people work better with word count goals. Some people combine word count and time goals (I will write for 2 hours or until I hit 2,000 words, which ever happens first)
-- try writing with a pen and paper for rough drafts (unless you already have and you hate it!)
-- have a set place to write. It might be practical to go to a coffee shop during the week. Or it might not, just depends on transportation times. There was one I used to go to that was on my way home from work, so I could stop in and write for an hour before I even got home. If you are writing at home, try to have a set place there, that is just for writing. That's not always possible though, so if you are writing, for example, at the same place you write for work, try to find some simple physical change you can make to indicate "YO IT'S FICTION WRITING TIME" like...change the lighting or light a candle or something.
-- have a set "ritual" for starting your fiction writing. You don't have to go full on witch or anything, but find an action/series of actions to indicate "YO IT'S FICTION WRITING TIME" like...read your notes for the scene, do free writing for 5 minutes, spend a few minutes visualizing your next scene like a movie, light a candle, chanting, jumping jacks whatever.

3) Know what you are going to write about before you start writing
-- figuring this out might be something you do for the first bit of your scheduled "writing time" or it might be something you figure out earlier.
-- you can do this even if you are "gardener" (i.e. you do not do much outlining before you start writing), just figure out what you are going to write about first thing, and then go from there. If you work from an outline, refer to that.

4) Set realistic goals and measure your progress towards them
-- How much writing is enough to accomplish what you want? Writing is one of those things that can expand infinitely. There's always more you can do, there's always more time you could devote to it. Give yourself a goal where you can stop and feel good. Woo.
-- Evaluate your goals based on your experience! If your first goal is to write 10k words per week (RANDOM NUMBER, NOT INTENDED AS A SUGGESTION), and you end up writing only 5k words for a couple weeks in a row, change your goal to 6k for the next week. On the other hand, if you write 13k, bump up that goal! Find your own goals that are challenging enough to be motivating and rewarding. Make sure meeting your goals is within your control (Do not make a goal to get a short story published within a week lol)
-- Keep track of your progress and pat yourself on the back when you are doing good. GO YOU! (enlist friends to pat you on the back, too, if at all possible)
-- When you aren't doing so hot, figure out why. Try to avoid feeling lovely, as much as possible (so hard). Keep tweaking things, and do not feel like a gently caress up if you have to downward tweak your goals. Figuring out how on earth to get yourself to write consistently is one of the hardest things beginning writers have to do. It is a process, just like learning to put decent sentences together is a process.

# ¿ Mar 18, 2014 22:19

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

sebmojo posted:

I read that as 'wouldn't be getting laid', which works too I guess.

The Doc's advice above is excellent, but if you're like me the only - only - thing that will make you write is deadlines. Without the weekly tick-tock of thunderdome deadlines in the last year or two I would have written exactly 0 words instead of nearly 50k.

Oh, this is a really good point. Goals are sort of internal deadlines, but... Not everyone is equally motivated by internal deadlines. Finding a way to put some external pressure on yourself can help a lot. Thunderdome deadlines, writing groups with deadlines, enforcement of penalties by friends and family, etc. Even having just one not-you person who is "counting on you" to make a deadline can make it feel so much more solid and real.

Right now my boyfriend asks me how many words I wrote each day and gives me that really disappointed look if it's beneath my goal. Especially if I happen to be playing a video game or chatting on irc when he asks.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2014 02:05

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

blue squares posted:

Sounds like you need to hang a calendar over your computer and punish yourself every time you don't meet whatever daily/weekly goal you should set for yourself.

Here comes my dickish sounding side again, but if your (hypothetical you) goal is to become a professional writer, make a living off your writing, how in god's name are you not writing every single day, for hours? How can you play video games when you haven't written? I already did three today after five hours of class. Could I do more? Hell yes, but three hours in a day is okay for me right now. But playing a video game before I did that three? No way. It is already so hard to become one of the very very few that make a living from writing, that if you're not willing to write every day, why bother?

On the other hand, if that's not your goal, that's fine. Do what makes you happy. Me? I don't ever want a real job again.

You sound like a dick because you don't seem to understand that different things work for different people. It's great that you came home today and wrote a bunch, but not everyone needs to do that every day to become a professional author. And certainly not everyone needs to expect that they should be able to just start doing that or else they'll never make it and should give up. Like...as long as I write at some point today it doesn't really matter if I do it before I play a few video games or not. Sure, for some people taking a break to goof off means they never go back to writing, and those people need to practice both not taking breaks and also getting back to work.

Not to mention 5 hours of class plus 3 hours of writing is not the same as 8 hours of work plus 3 hours of writing. You basically just did a full work day, so go write for 3 more hours I guess? You act like you're doing "enough" and anyone who does less isn't, but that's just not the case.

Re: calendars, self-punishment works great, probably, but if you are the kind of person who ignores self-imposed deadlines, like me, chances are you might ignore self-imposed punishment schemes as well (I do!). You might think that means I'll never make it, but really, there are lots of other ways to make it work.

Writing a lot is mandatory to become a professional writer. Writing for hours every day, and punishing yourself if you don't, is not. Figuring out how to get yourself to write a lot is a valid part of learning how to write. It comes easier to some people than others, and if you're on of the people who can "just do it," then lucky you, keep on keeping on. But don't tell everyone else they don't have what it takes because they have to find a different solution.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2014 02:48

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

elfdude posted:

For me I see work as something I need to do to accomplish a goal, taking a shower, filing my taxes, etc. Things which inherently require energy, and produce stress.

It seems like a sad world to me in which something as relaxing as taking a shower, is instead seen as a burden, or as work. I can't help but feel that if you view showering in this light, that your efforts are pointless. So you become clean, so what? So you use soap, so what? So you can save time by using a two-in-one shampoo/conditioner, so what? Where's the satisfaction in that? What's the point? Maybe I'm too much of an idealist, but it seems to me that if you're stressing out over a shower, then odds are you don't care about it, and if you don't care about it spend your time on something else. It's a problem of prioritization and what you value. Do you have trouble finding time to type giant posts on the internet? I don't. The concept is the same for me.

BATHS THOUGH, now those are really hard.

# ¿ Mar 19, 2014 09:38

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Shageletic posted:

Yeah thanks for this, and Seb too. Basically, I need to write this scene to show a clutch of characters at their height, to make an audience give a poo poo about them. Similar to the beginning of Predator, or for those into more lovely random movies, James Woods' Vampires. I've now changed it from a simple raid on nondescript fortress to launching an attack on a floating Kabuki castle powered by a hell dimension. The more I play around with it, the more random it gets. Who knows where it'll end up.

If the point of this scene is to show your characters and make the audience care about them, but it's boring you, then probably you should focus on the characters. Changing the nondescript fortress to a floating Kabuki castle isn't going to make anyone care more about your characters. What are the internal conflicts for the characters? Why should the audience care about them, and how does this scene show that?

# ¿ Mar 29, 2014 01:34

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

rizuhbull posted:

Is this the best place to have your work critiqued? I read a couple pages but am finding mostly discussion.

Not really, though people will critique things you post here. If you have something under 1000 words, you can post it in the Fiction Farm thread: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3527097
If it's longer (or if you just want to...) you can post it in a new thread. If you aren't getting very many hits on it, you can always link to it here.

# ¿ Mar 29, 2014 22:18

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

elfdude posted:

This is absolutely destroying my writing. I'm tired of starting sentences with 'the', and 'he', and 'him', and 'a name'. Is there any tips y'all have for me? Any lists of alternatives to break the cycle? Anyway to start thinking about the process to prevent it in the first place?

Go open a book you like and look at the sentences in it and see how they are structured.

Then do that with another book. Maybe even a third? Then edit some sentences you have written to change up sentence structure (you can post some stuff here and I/other people can take a look if you get stuck).

I like doing this and I think I have a book I like around here somewhere within walking distance... Yeah, here we go.

Raymond Chandler's The Big Sleep posted:

It was about eleven o'clock in the morning, mid October, with the sun not shining and a look of hard wet rain in the clearness of the foothills.
I was wearing my powder-blue suit, with dark blue shirt, tie and display handkerchief, black brogues, black wool socks with dark blue clocks on them.
I was neat, clean, shaved and sober, and I didn't care who knew it.
I was everything the well-dressed private detective ought to be.
I was calling on four million dollars.

The main hallway of the Sternwood place was two stories high.
Over the entrance doors, which would have let in a troop of Indian elephants, there was a broad stained-glass panel showing a knight in dark armor rescuing a lady who was tied to a tree and didn't have any clothes on but some long and convenient hair.
The knight had pushed the vizor of his helmet back to be sociable, and he was fiddling with the knots on the ropes that tied the lady to the tree and not getting anywhere.
I stood there and thought that if I lived in the house, I would sooner or later have to climb up there and help him.
He didn't seem to be really trying.

So, in this first example, you can see that Chandler actually uses the simple subject-verb construction most of the time. The repetition of "I was" in the first paragraph focuses in on the narrowing description: his clothes, what they meant, what he was after. Even within that repetition, you can see how he has varied the sentence length, and added subordinate clauses. The second paragraph also uses mostly the subject-verb construction, though you get an introductory clause in sentence two ("Over the entrance doors"). In this paragraph, however, the subject changes, (The main hallway, The Knight, I, He), so there is more variation at the beginning of the sentences, even though the primary structure remains the same. There are also more subordinate clauses and sentence length variation through out.

The picture in the stained glass and his reaction to it is also an apt summary for the book, and once you've read it, you can see the end of it right there. That's a fine first two paragraphs, in my opinion.

Neil Gaiman's Neverwhere posted:

The night before he went to London, Richard Mayhew was not enjoying himself.

He had begun the evening by enjoying himself: he had enjoyed reading the good-bye cards, and receiving the hugs from several not entirely unattractive young ladies of his acquaintance; he had enjoyed the warnings about the evils and dangers of London, and the gift of the white umbrella with the map of the London Underground on it that his friends had chipped in money to buy; he had enjoyed the first few pints of ale; but then, with each successive pint he found that he was enjoying himself significantly less; until now he was sitting and shivering on the sidewalk outside the pub in a small Scottish town, weighing the relative merits of being sick and not being sick, and not enjoying himself at all.

Inside the pub, Richard's friends continued to celebrate his forthcoming departure with an enthusiasm that, to Richard, was beginning to border on the sinister.
He sat on the sidewalk and held on tightly to the rolled-up umbrella, and wondered whether going south to London was really a good idea.

Holy Moly, look at that second paragraph; it is all one sentence. We also see the repetition (again!) of "he had enjoyed." Within that monster sentence, you see how he uses subclauses to break up the repetition, it starts with he had enjoyed, he had enjoyed, but then which each successive pint, until now. Gaiman uses introductory clauses to give us information about time and location (the night before he went to London, Inside the pub), but other than that he also sticks to the subject-verb construction, albeit with some more changes in tense (was not enjoying, had begun by enjoying, had enjoyed). He varies the verbs themselves more, outside of the repetition of enjoy, and keeps Richard (or "he") as the subject of all but one sentence.

Robin McKinley's Chalice posted:

Because she was Chalice she stood at the front door with the Grand Seneschal, the Overlord's agent and the Prelate, all of whom were carefully ignoring her.
But she was Chalice, and it was from her hand the Master would take the welcome cup.

From the front door of the House, at the top of the magnificent curling sweep of stair, she could see over the heads of the crowd.
The rest of the Circle stood stiffly and formally at the foot of the stair with the first Houseman and the head gardener, but nearly the entire citizenry of the demesne seemed to have found an excuse to be somewhere in or near the House or lining the long drive from the gates today.

Their new Master was coming home: the Master thought lost or irrecoverable.
The Master who, as younger brother of the previous Master, had been sent off to the priests of Fire, to get rid of him.
Third and fourth brothers of Masters were often similarly disposed of, but the solitary brother of an unmarried Master without other Heir should not have been dealt with so summarily.
So the Master had been told.
But the two brothers hated each other, and the younger one was given to the priests of Fire.
That had been seven years ago.

Wow, that's a lot of different ways to start a sentence!

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Apr 2, 2014

# ¿ Apr 2, 2014 05:56

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

General Battuta posted:

Don't pay for submissions! Unless you mean postage or whatever. Money moves from the publisher/agent to the author, not the other way around.

I've heard that this isn't always the case for contests, including some reputable ones. No? Agents and magazines shouldn't charge though.

# ¿ Apr 3, 2014 06:15

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

blue squares posted:

I cut my finger pretty bad and now typing is very difficult for the next week

Cool story, bro.

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 23:13 on Apr 12, 2014

# ¿ Apr 12, 2014 23:10

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

blue squares posted:

Someone brought up using spreadsheets for outlining and provided this link: http://jamigold.com/for-writers/worksheets-for-writers/
I don't have a single clue how to use excel. Are you supposed to just fill all that stuff in with one sentence so it fits in the box, or what?

Don't worry about one sentence or fitting it into the boxes. You can put in as much or as little detail as you want. Here's one filled out for a short story that I was working on long ago....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h_qbSTqoNdws_xm-a9ALNdwlRk_-DbEXsp0QErdFHVo/edit#gid=1278829811

I like to use these after I already have a few major ideas for the story--they really help me figure out what is missing and where crucial choices and ups/downs can go. They are also pretty helpful in getting through that pesky first half of act II which I always struggle with. You can see in the example, though, that I often still don't know what I am doing

# ¿ Apr 15, 2014 06:41

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Also theft of written fiction is pretty rare, but there are plenty of other fields where taking credit for someone else's work is a bigger possibility. Medical research, for example, if you like the medical angle. (Not sure how you would steal a nurse's credit and destroy her will to live :p)

"He stole my novel!" is just a plot line that makes me automatically roll my eyes and think the author is doing a paranoid self-insert thing. Novels don't get stolen and only wanna-be authors worry about it. ....then I remember I am writing about nearly that exact plot line, only with a poetry-stealing vampire, which makes it okay???

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 20:58 on Apr 17, 2014

# ¿ Apr 17, 2014 20:54

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Malloreon posted:

The guys from the self publishing podcast used to do this, and kinda sorta still do. They'd write connected short stories (20-30k) and call them "episodes" and sell them individually and in collections of 4-5 as "seasons."

As far as I know they've since stopped selling the individual episodes and just write books and call them seasons.

There are still some romance self-pubbers who are exploring this format, e.g. J. K. Harper's Black Mesa Wolves series (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0070JOQHM/ref=cm_sw_r_udp_awd_BNdutb0MMSXQX). That one doesn't seem to be doing all that well, though.

Wasn't Wool also released as serials?

And comics, of course, have a similar release structure.

Personally I would hesitate to read a serial as it was released. There's the risk that it will mysteriously end or devolve into horrors, plus the much more realistic possibility that I just won't pick it up again when the next episode comes out. I'm a binge-reader.

On the other hand, if Blue Squares is just talking about how to structure the story inside a single novel, then I don't know if there's much advice to give.

"Will people read x?" Or "is there an audience for x" is hard to answer, especially when you are asking about story structure.

I don't think a series of short, resolving sub-plots would be radically off-putting, as long as they fit into the story. This is the structure of many series, especially mystery (also urban fantasy like Dresden Files, arguably Harry Potter, Hunger Games, etc.) Can you condense that to include multiple episodes in a single novel? Basically, if you can make it work, you can do it. See, not helpful. But people read Cloud Atlas, so go wild?

Edit: Will people read a book where sub-plots receive as much attention as the main plot? Yes: Game of Thrones.

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 21:50 on Apr 17, 2014

# ¿ Apr 17, 2014 21:43

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Turtlicious posted:

So I've never critiqued a thing before, and I read the OP should I just hop into the Farm and try to critique stuff? I also was told to post here to discuss my latest Thunderdome entry. Mostly asking for advice on how to do certain things. What does bad critique look like?

There have been lots of good posts in here recently (on the last page even, come on people, read at least a few pages of the thread!) about how to crit, especially as a new critiquer:

systran posted:

"I got bored and stopped reading at x point is pretty useful and requires only that you can pinpoint when you lost interest

Jonked posted:

"I was confused about why Y happened" is pretty useful as well. Boring and confusing are going to be a pretty big chunk of what loses a reader. "This sentence seemed awkward" would just about cover the rest.

Djeser posted:

Even if you're not a good writer, you can give useful criticism, because not everyone who reads everything is a good writer themselves. You might not be able to comment on mechanics, but like people have said, pointing out places where you were bored, confused, or tripped up on the wording is helpful.

If you want to give positive criticism (whaaaat), you can still help someone by being specific about parts you particularly liked. It's nice but slightly annoying to hear "it's good, you know, the whole general thing", because that leaves the writer unsure of what they did that's good. It can be "I really like how the relationship between the mom and her son felt" or "I liked the imagery when he was walking through the forest" or something. And that doesn't have to be the only thing you like, it's just good to hear what works in your writing along with what doesn't.

crabrock posted:

the biggest help I get is people telling me something didn't make much sense given the information I gave them, and telling me they'd like to see more background/description of ____.

As to the second part of your question:

Turtlicious posted:

My question about the story is I try to show in some paragraphs with past tense that this is how he sees himself and his actions, and in some I try to stay in present, and show this is how he is. Also, a lot of people think I'm making fun of the main character, but I'm not and while his life isn't great I'm not sure how to go about making people feel maybe less like this person is being put on display to be mocked.

Are all of these just me making excuses for my bad writing? Or is what I'm saying coming across once you look for it?

The following is general advice, and not based on your specific story:

"Is it there once you know what to look for?" isn't a particularly helpful way of thinking about writing. You have one opportunity to show the reader what to look for: the story itself. You don't get to come in afterwards and explain.

I do think that explanations have a place when asking for critiques, because then readers can tell you if you accomplished what you were aiming for, but you have to keep firm in your mind that you must change the story to fix it. Explanations to change your readers' experiences are essentially excuses for bad writing. The writing has to stand on its own.

ALSO: Congrats General Battuta, that is so awesome!

# ¿ Apr 18, 2014 03:17

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

I use a sophisticated combination of scrivener and a mess of unindexed notes in spiral notebooks, which jump between stories with no warning. Don't recommend the second part of that so much, but eh. I don't have much I need to keep track of yet, I guess?

I use Evernote for other stuff and like it a lot. If I were to use it for fiction notes, I'd try one of the following: a notebook stack for each project, with a notebook in it for characters, one for setting, one for technology, etc. Then one note for each character, etc. plus some extra notes about how stuff overlaps and do I put this inventor who never appears in the story, but is relevant because he invented X under characters or technology? Does terraforming go under setting or technology? Oh god kill me.

Or, I would have one notebook stack for fiction, with a notebook for each project, and use tags like "setting" and "character" to categorize notes. But actually I would always forget to tag my notes, because that's just what I do. Luckily Evernote has a good search function, so probably not a big deal.

# ¿ Apr 26, 2014 00:06

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

That would be scrivener, probably, though it's not free. It goes on sale for half-price every now and then, that's when I grabbed it.

Edit: I mostly use Scrivener now, the handwritten notes are just because I think better that way sometimes. Scrivener has a lot of great functions, like being able to split the screen between notes and manuscript, compiling into various formats (both file formats and visual formats, like "standard manuscript format"), tagging, outline and notecard views, and session word count tracking. Plus lots more that I haven't used yet.

Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 03:14 on Apr 26, 2014

# ¿ Apr 26, 2014 03:09

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

General Battuta posted:

Agent. I just pulled off the the manuscript -> agent -> three book deal with Tor dream over the last year, so I'm happy to answer any questions. (the answers are 'read the submission guidelines' and 'have a really good really short query letter')

Oh wow, three book deal with Tor!!! That really is the dream. Congratulations.

How much of book 2 do you have written? Did they make the deal based on book 1 alone or ask to see part of 2?

Did you write the manuscript in this year, too?? (And if so, do you also have a day job and/or life?) can you afford to quit your day job now?

# ¿ May 5, 2014 21:16

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

CantDecideOnAName posted:

Haven't really had much inclination to read. Been stressed out of my mind with bullshit. I was hoping to start writing again to take my mind off of things and occupy my copious free time, but that doesn't seem to be the case. And not having anyone to bounce ideas off of is not helping.

Do I just need to ride it out or...?

Is there ANYTHING you feel like doing?

If so, I recommend doing that. For me personally, writing is one of the last things to come back after I'm in a funk. It just requires a lot of energy, and often tends to create more stress than it relieves. While I consider it worth it in the end, you won't ever see me saying I'm trying to write to relieve stress. :P It works differently for different people, though. Some posters here have described writing as more entertaining than reading any book or watching any TV show, and good for them. For me, it's frequently a struggle. Whatever.

Similarly, is there anything you feel like reading? Sometimes I do not feel inclined to read because I am trying to make myself read what I think I "should" read, instead of what I want to read. Usually picking up some light fiction ("guilty" reading, but I don't feel guilty) picks me up again.

Finally, you might try free writing--instead of trying to work on your novel, just write whatever. You could try writing another story, or just literally writing down whatever pops into your head. I like to do a form of focused free writing, where I write down why what I'm writing is frustrating me. Usually it's because I don't know a bunch of stuff that I need to know to make any progress on the actual story. So I'll write a bunch ABOUT my story, but without trying to actually find the right words to put IN the story.

Some people might find that this borders too closely upon "world builder's disease"--where you write a lot of history/backstory/culture notes for your story, but never manage to work on the actual story. I guess it can devolve into that, but I find that asking myself questions about what I need to know usually keeps me on track. I fix a lot of problems this way, and it gets me excited and interested in the story again. I've resolved a lot of big plot and character issues in my writing this way. I also tend to think of bits of dialogue as I do this, because I kind of run through the story in my mind. (Full Disclosure: Still suck at finishing a project though!)

Here's an example from a few days ago:

quote:

Neza blames herself for not protecting Gregor.

Does Gregor blame himself for not protecting Neza? He mostly blames himself for not standing up against Mascha's version of the story, for not insisting that the Iodu had healed the dog, and hadn't hurt them, that Mascha hadn't saved them, because there was nothing to save them from, and he really wishes he had forced (convinced) Neza to trust her own memory of the event, instead of placing so much faith in Mascha. He especially wishes that now.

Let's say that the Iodu marks Gregor with its blood, or the wolf blood, but doesn't actually mark Neza because Mascha interferes? I'm not sure. That gives her a kind of "survivor's guilt" but it doesn't explain how there's some element of choice....Maybe Macha wipes off the blood and they all promise not to tell anyone--that also kind of explains why Mascha stops writing. She doesn't want to deal with it--she is scared. I guess she feels guilty that she didn't save Gregor, too, but her solution is to run away again. Hmmm.

Yay, I've worked out some of the emotions and motivations for my characters, and started to solidify how the inciting incident actually happens and leads to the events that follow! Two things that were not working for me that well in my first draft!

# ¿ May 9, 2014 03:24

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Anomalous Blowout posted:

We could collaborate and write a romance novel about two rival hockey players who find true love lurking in the anonymous corners of the internet. Only they discover they play for teams that have hated one another since the advent of the NHL. As the Eastern Conference Finals of the Stanley Cup Playoffs draw near, they'll have to go head to head on the ice while hiding their true feelings from the media and their teammates.

Coming soon to your Amazon erotica marketplace, an Anomalous Alligator production: Slapshot to the Heart.

Gay Hockey Players Who Meet On Tinder is probably a marketable romance.

# ¿ May 20, 2014 03:26

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 04:33

Dr. Kloctopussy: Apr 22, 2003; "It's time....to DIE!"

Anomalous Blowout posted:

I've never written a smut scene with more than one penis before, but I've written a lot about five-holes and grinding.

Two putters, four holes, and grinding is par for the course.

# ¿ May 20, 2014 06:57

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