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tiistai posted:This is an excellent question. Yeah, this is what got me thinking about it. I'd rather not believe that the character we're playing as is objectively incompetent.  Also, laughing in red text? There has to be something else to it.On the topic of solving the murders: I've not much experience with this kind of mystery, nor do I seem to have the kind of creativity needed to come up with solutions. I mean, the obvious one for a locked-room mystery would be suicide, but there are too many deaths for that to explain everyone, at least, and many of the injuries also seem like they would be difficult to accomplish on oneself. I wish I could just go read a bunch of locked-room mysteries to try to help with that, but school leaves little time for doing so.
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Apr 2, 2014 15:41
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I don't know if this has been linked much in the topic yet, but I have always thought Umineko's translated introduction gives the reader a very good idea of what the author is expecting of them as they're reading. Also, it's pretty neat, so I want to link it anyway. http://witch-hunt.com/hist.html In other words, even if it's not yet solvable, everything about the mystery is supposed to antagonize you and make you want to solve it. So definitely do reason things through and try to solve what you can.
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Apr 2, 2014 15:53
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The thing with this game is that it's more a deconstruction of classic mystery. It takes the usual setups (locked room, isolated island mansion) and has Beatrice make a joke of them. e: Mercury Hat posted:But of course a witch turning into butterflies and entering through the keyhole doesn't contradict any of those things This is what I mean by Beatrix making a joke of everything. ViggyNash fucked around with this message at 16:19 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Apr 2, 2014 15:54
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My honest suggestion is to not bother trying to solve things, just accept events as they happen. Especially in the second half.
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Apr 2, 2014 15:55
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If your super power is being able to analyze text and subtext, you can probably solve the closed room murders with just the information in episodes 1 and 2. Depending on your definition of "solve", of course  .And Zack Ater, the general rule of closed room murders is they have to be fair if they're going to be solvable and Umineko lays out the rules for each closed room in the red text. It tells you how many keys exist to a room, how many entry points there are, whether the door can be locked without a key, and so on. But of course a witch turning into butterflies and entering through the keyhole doesn't contradict any of those things  .That said, I'm rubbish at solving murder mysteries and just buckled in for the ride when I read through it.
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Apr 2, 2014 15:57
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Mercury Hat posted:And Zack Ater, the general rule of closed room murders is they have to be fair if they're going to be solvable and Umineko lays out the rules for each closed room in the red text. It tells you how many keys exist to a room, how many entry points there are, whether the door can be locked without a key, and so on. Yeah, I understand the rules, I just have trouble thinking of solutions to them. There's suicide, gas, poison, some kind of trap set up in the room? Past that, I've got no real ideas, and poison is the only one of those I can remember being brought up by the game at all, and I think that was just when Rosa was being paranoid about everyone. Reading some classics might help give me new ideas. I don't read enough mystery anyway. Mercury Hat posted:But of course a witch turning into butterflies and entering through the keyhole doesn't contradict any of those things But magic and witches aren't real Rodyle posted:My honest suggestion is to not bother trying to solve things, just accept events as they happen. Especially in the second half. That just makes me more want to solve them!
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Apr 2, 2014 16:18
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Rodyle posted:My honest suggestion is to not bother trying to solve things, just accept events as they happen. Especially in the second half. Don't listen to this person.
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Apr 2, 2014 16:24
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Jeek posted:So we should, in theory, be able to solve all murders that has occurred if we would just read more carefully? In theory, yes. The previous episodes become easier to solve once you read more, but technically the gameboards are all self-contained. Can't tell you anything other than that Beatrice is obviously the mastermind in each episode Rodyle posted:My honest suggestion is to not bother trying to solve things, just accept events as they happen. Especially in the second half. You and the other people who refused to think are the reason R07 had to drop the super-hard EP3 (Land of the Golden Witch) and give us the easier Banquet instead
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Apr 2, 2014 16:37
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InfiniteJesters posted:Beato isn't big on Safe, Sane and Consensual, is she? Hey, Battler never said the safe word.
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Apr 4, 2014 23:45
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Shiny: Apparently there was an update to the Umineko Tweak patch for 1-4 a month ago that no one in the thread noticed. However, it has a bug where sprites don't appear in one of the ep3 scenes that's still being worked on, so you may want to wait to update.
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Apr 8, 2014 22:16
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Fates End posted:Hey, Battler never said the safe word. He was trying to, but thought "ARRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH" had 7 G's, not 8.
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Apr 8, 2014 23:02
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Mecca-Benghazi posted:edit: good catches, Jeek. Maybe a person disguised as Rosa...? If Kinzo were dead beforehand that does kind of gently caress up the epithet though Just finished playing Episode 2, and I came to the same conclusion myself. If I recall correctly, before the murders started, they showed Rosa at the chapel with the other siblings. It's possible that the culprit/Beatrice killed her, hid the body, and had been impersonating her ever since. Which is why Beatrice had to put her name in quotes in order to satisfy the requirements of the red text, since the person who had the keys and the gun wasn't actually Rosa. Of course, this doesn't explain the later murders, where "Rosa" was in the parlor while they were being committed. One of the servants serving as an accomplice?
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Apr 24, 2014 23:09
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whitehelm posted:Shiny: Apparently there was an update to the Umineko Tweak patch for 1-4 a month ago that no one in the thread noticed. However, it has a bug where sprites don't appear in one of the ep3 scenes that's still being worked on, so you may want to wait to update. Noted. Will leave it alone for now. Might well not bother updating at all unless the current patch has issues in 3 and 4 I haven't noticed, since it looks like the big change is just enabling a new textbox that slows things down and breaks the backlog function. Apologies for taking so long to get an update up. April ended up becoming one solid block of papers and I had some aftermath stuff going on this last week. But now I'm finally completely free for a few months and I've had a few days to toss one together. Part Forty-Four: Purgatory's Kitchen    Last time on Umineko: Battler surrendered, became Beatrice's bondage slave, and was eaten by goats along with most of the remaining characters.  So it looks like Rosa, as the last one to defy the witch, is our new protagonist by default, I guess. Where is this...? It felt like some mansion, but at least it didn't seem to be the Ushiromiya family mansion. She could see a room that looked like a parlor. ...And there was some tea that had been prepared. It had probably been prepared for her.   There was someone across from her. ...Female. ...A woman. ...The portrait's, ...witch. She seemed to be having a one-sided conversation. She was probably talking to Rosa, but Rosa, whose mind was clouded up by a deep fog, didn't have a clue what was being said...   : "It probably isn't that big a thing for you at all. However, that is the only meaningful transaction as far as I am concerned."...What is she, ...talking about. ...I don't know, ...I don't know. : "It's just that, ...I am very much a witch. I think it would be wise to ask for something that only a witch can grant. Isn't this a rare chance. You can actually receive a favor from me, Beatrice the Golden. *cackle*cackle*!" : "...u..."Finally, Rosa started to feel the blood flowing through her body. ...Her movements were still sluggish, and she couldn't even voice the words she was thinking.  : "Can you imagine? A mountain of gold that you couldn't use up as long as you lived."You know, I'm not going to dispute the core argument here or anything. Sure, you throw around enough cash you can buy pretty much whatever you want and indirectly buy happiness. But honestly if you're handing someone infinite money this is pretty much the worst way to do it. As the witch blew on her pipe, seven colors of smoke wrapped around the surroundings.  When she did, the inside of the parlor, ...had suddenly become filled with stacks of gold ingots. Like, all that gold is super impressive and all, but what can you even do with it? You've pretty much gotta convert it all to bills or cards or whatever anyway, either by turning it over or using it as collateral to get actual money like Kinzo did. It looked like a shining gold-colored wall. ...If each ingot was worth several ten million yen, how much would all of this be worth? It seemed sinful to even think of that number.  I mean maybe it'd work for super high-level transactions if the other guy's willing to go through that hassle, but. It's not like you can walk into the corner store, grab a coke and a bag of chips and slap a 20 pound gold ingot on the counter. Poor bastard manning the register has no idea how much change he's supposed to give for that, and the store probably doesn't have enough cash even if he does. : "...Why don't I fill those cracks in for you? Yes, how about this. It's something that only I can give. You should be very happy. ...You don't have to say it out loud. I can understand it right away, it's written on your face and in the corners of your heart, *cackle*cackle*!"Rosa felt a touch of discomfort at this witch, who kept on talking even though Rosa hadn't uttered a single word, but since she still couldn't speak well, and was so helpless that it was difficult for her even to move a finger, she couldn't do anything but listen. : "How far must the deep wounds in your heart recede before they can be healed? ...This is, ...deep, deep. ...Sometimes, wounds close up while a fragment of something is still inside. ...Even when those wounds appear to have healed, they will continue to throb for all eternity. Sometimes you have to open the wound once to completely heal it."So then either you take no change, take your stuff, and just. Toss your infinite ingots around willy-nilly for trivial poo poo and probably eventually tank the worth of gold and then that jerk on the radio who says we should invest everything in gold will die destitute and starving and.... Wait that's actually an argument for taking the gold, isn't it? As the witch spoke, she stared deep into Rosa's eyes. ...What in the world, ...was she peering at? Rosa felt uncomfortable, but she couldn't look away.  : "...So your pain, is being stuck with a fate from the time you were born. ...How heart-breaking. ...You don't have to say it. I understand. ...I understand..."Think you're missing an adjective there, Beatrice. Then, Rosa was once again sucked into the witch's eyes. Then, the world grew dark, spinning round and round as she was sucked in...   Or you have to take way more than you want. Like, all the coke and chips in the corner store. And probably most of the other stuff too. And then what? What are you going to do with all that? Tossing it's just another kind of wasteful. If you were inclined to donate you'd be tossing literal tons of gold at that already. And use it all up yourself? He was a very scary person. I was often hit, and my toys were taken from me and broken. It had seemed like I was being punished for something bad I'd done, but I hadn't really understood what it was, or why I was being punished.  Well, then you end up being found as a bloated, immobilized, toothless corps surrounded by bags and bottles. And on the forms your cause of death is listed as “Dorito Overdose,” which science has proven is the 17th most shameful way to- oh hey things are happening.  : Rosa, Rosa. Why are you such an idiot?Oh, that's Eva nee-san's voice. Eva nee-san is a real adult, so she's very smart. So she hated the stupid kid Rosa. She was always a very sly person, and she often lied to me, tricked me, bullied me all time. It had seemed like I was stupid, and she said it was only natural for stupid people to be swindled by those better than them.  Keep in mind that this is a wee bit beyond standard sibling bullying poo poo, because there's like a 15-ish year age gap between Rosa and Krauss/Eva. Apparently they had nothing better to do in their 20s than gently caress with the elementary school kid.  : Rosa, Rosa. Why are you such an idiot?Oh, that's Rudolf nii-san's voice. Rudolf nii-san really knows how to get things done. So he hated the stupid kid Rosa. When Krauss nii-san was around, he was friendly with Krauss nii-san. When Eva nee-san was around, he was friendly with Eva nee-san. ...And when Krauss nii-san wasn't around, he was violent like Krauss nii-san, and when Eva nee-san wasn't around he played dirty like Eva nee-san.  ...Oh, but this is my memory from when I was a kid. A large amount of unreasonable things happened when I was a kid. And that couldn't be dragged out forever. With time, those memories were buried away, and forgetting those bit by bit was supposed to be part of growing up and becoming an adult. So becoming an adult is the same thing as separating yourself from all of those memories. Therefore. No matter how much time passed, Rosa couldn't become an adult. ...Even though she had been blessed with a daughter called Maria and was called a mother, ...she didn't at all feel like she had become an adult. The witch pitied that. And she smiled, saying that she could heal that pain herself.  : "But that way, your 'memories of being hurt by your older siblings' wouldn't remain, and in that sense, while you could call it a gift, you wouldn't be able to accept it. If starvation is healed, that person is satisfied. Even if you erase starvation itself, no one will thank you. Just like how there are no young people who give thanks for their daily gluttony. ...Understand?"Wait, really? Am I seriously the only one who stops to thank Beelzebub before I stuff my face? I thought everyone did that. I think she's telling me something really complicated. ...In short, even if she makes it so that I never had older siblings, the pain wouldn't be removed, maybe that's what she's saying. Strictly speaking, it's different. Healing isn't the same thing as removing pain. It's the pleasure earned from withstanding pain. Therefore, removing the pain isn't healing. To know the joy of healing, you have to know the pain.  When the witch snapped her fingers, even though the room was still filled with a mountain of gold and had already lost all semblance of reality, a fabulous tablecloth appeared on top of the table, and wonderful cooking was laid out, almost as though it was the opening of a banquet in a castle from some fairy tale. For an instant, Rosa felt a pleasurable surprise at how fabulous it was, ...but at the same time, she felt a bit of anticlimax. Because she thought that being bullied by her siblings wouldn't be wiped away by just one meal, no matter how delicious. : "Food contains many of the human pleasures. You must eat like a pig as long as you live. If one meal isn't enough, then as many as you want. Until the pain of your heart is healed, why not continue this gourmet banquet? ...Begin it, furniture." From the beautiful food dishes adorning the table, they efficiently took some food and began to pile it up on Rosa's plate. It really did look delicious, but Rosa's body still felt as heavy as lead, and there was no way she could eat. Maybe they also understood that. The goat head servants tied a napkin around Rosa's collar, and gallantly brought a glass of before-dinner alcohol to her mouth, tilting it for her. She remembered an old servant who had once carried rice porridge to her mouth when she was laid up with a high fever. She couldn't drink it well, and it dripped down from her mouth, but she felt the fragrant sweetness spread throughout her mouth. : "It's a sweet aperitif of noble rot German-made wine. A wine cocktail of white wine mixed with a crimson golden drop." Rosa coughed violently. And the bright red that stained her face made it look as though she had coughed up blood. : "You know a lot about black tea, so you should know what it means, right? 'Golden drop' refers to the last drop. It is called the most precious drop in black tea. ...So a golden drop of blood is the same. The last and most precious drop of blood squeezed out of a human. It's squeezed with that."As the witch snapped her fingers, a bright red veil that had been set up before something large was removed.  Really, seems to me like having more than one golden drop in anything would ruin the point by making them not special anymore. Unless there's something actually meaningfully different about them, I admittedly know gently caress all about tea and Google can barely find any places that use the term at all, let alone ones that define it more specifically. By its unnerving shape, she could tell that with a human's strength, it could tighten and compress something. ...And it seemed that there were still some squeezed dregs remaining, ...because of the bright red remains that stained it.  : "But you can't take more than one golden drop at once. No matter what kind of human you take it from, you can't get more than one drop. But I am a witch. It is also easy to revive a person."When the witch snapped her fingers, suddenly, the human compressor began to shake.   Using her magic, the witch had once again revived the squeezed dregs to how they had been before they were squeezed. Three goat head servants with muscular physiques approached the compressor, and forcefully started tightening the large bulb. ...As they did, an unearthly moan came from the inside of the coffin. ...Rosa thought she knew the owner of that voice. : "It is fitting for cooking to be done in the kitchen. That is enough, stand back." The witch had definitely said that only one golden drop could be taken from a single human. And yet, she had dozens of people's worth of golden drops from a single human. ...Only a witch could do this. The Golden Witch Beatrice could kill a single human 'endlessly'. ...In other words, before Beatrice, even death did not mean release.  : "Do you need me to say it in a different way? Have you forgotten the day this man hit you, and you swallowed the blood that ran into your mouth? That's right, remember that taste. Remember the taste of the tears that you spilled until you were dry. I believe this aperitif will be sufficient to heal that regrettable memory. *cackle*cackle*!!"Way to go, Krauss. It may well be your fault Rosa became her particular form of terrible.  It was definitely a fragrant sweetness. The living blood of her brother, who had given her such hateful thoughts and made her soak her pillow so many times, had been collected from his death, repeated dozens of times. It wasn't as though the crimson-stained wine wasn't sweet. But Rosa tried to spit it out. Because of that, the deep red wine that spilled out of Rosa's mouth looked just like a bloodstain. ...Now that she knew that this ghastly substance wasn't a simple aperitif, Rosa couldn't help but feel uncomfortable about what would happen if this banquet continued.  When Rosa heard the true nature of the pink-colored meat piled up in the salad, she had a sudden impulse to vomit her guts out. ...Furthermore, the goat servants stuck a fork in it, and carried it to Rosa's mouth. : "How does your double-tongued sister taste? It must be quite soft and enchanting, right *cackle*cackle*!"Maybe it was quite sweet, soft and enchanting in her mouth. After all, Eva's lies were always sweet, and young Rosa had always listened to them. ...So you could say that the taste of the stimulating pepper seasoning that was added expressed the details of those lies well.  : "...mnnnnnnnnnnn!! mnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!"As the tongue salad that kept being pushed into Rosa's mouth was covered with saliva, she spat it out. But the goat head servants carefully returned it to the plate and carried it to Rosa's mouth over and over again.  : "...nnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!! nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!"As Rosa's tears dripped down, she resisted, half-crazed. However, the only way she could resist was by refusing to swallow. Even if she didn't swallow it, the taste of the french dressing increasingly violated Rosa's mouth... : "Does it please you...? There's still much more food. Sea bass pie wrapped in the skin of Rudolf's face. Soup with boiled brains, liver pate. And look forward to dessert, *cackle*cackle*!! It's not just your siblings, see? I have lavishly arranged all of those who you have trusted and yet betrayed you. Why don't we continue this banquet for all eternity, until your heart is satisfied. For all eternity.No pork pies?   : “It's alright. Here, there is no need to worry about honor or your public image or anything, so laugh as much as you want and chew it to bits. Isn't this the be-st banquet, Ushiromiya Rosaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa???": "...st, ...please, ...stop..., ...*cough*, *hack*!! eeeeh...": "Oh, I'm sorry, I kept the dessert a secret to surprise you, but let me reveal it anyways. If I reveal it, maybe that will be enough incentive for you to eat up the full course." : "If you eat this, you will be released from everything. Freedom, you see, freedom! Finally Rosa will gain freedom as an individual person, aren't you happyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? You should be happy, drool is hanging from your mouth, just try looking in a mirroooooooooooooooooor, hyahahaaahaahaahaha!!"  : "...Mama...Was Maria, ...a burden...?": "...nnnnnnn!! You aren't a burden!! nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn!!"As Rosa spat out the food that was continually being carried to her mouth, as she was covered with filth and saliva and blood, she resisted filthily and screamed.  : "...After all, Maria always does horrible things to Mama. Even when Mama brings a man over, Maria can't stay quiet. When Mama stayed over with a man, Maria got lonely and unruly and made a mess of the room. When Maria went to search by herself, she got lost, the police picked her up and Mama was shamed. Mama, who cried after Maria didn't come home for several days, who had to be consoled by the neighbors, was shamed."  : "And then, maybe Mama will be happy Maria exists for the first time. Maybe she'll eat Maria and think she's delicious.”: “Isn't it delicioooooooooooooooous? Be choked up with tears of gratitude, your daughter is saying this much for you, riiiiiiiiiiiight? Oven-baked apples and your beloved daughter make for the best dessert! You've managed to raise such delicious ingredients, aren't you the best mother, Ushiromiya Rosaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa???"This scene is one of the very few where I'm familiar with the anime version. You should really click that link because it is hilarious. Unfortunately, the best video I could dig up was a Spanish sub, because apparently the English one either doesn't exist anymore or is buried really goddamn deep, but the visuals are all you really need.    : "Wait!! Wait, Maria, that's wrong!! Stop it already, stop it already, nooooooooooooooooooooooo!! I didn't want something like this! Please stop, please forgive me!! No, stop it already, don't put it, in my mouth..., uuuuulg, geeeeeeeeeeee!!": "Have you been satisfied with my hospitality...? Then I'll have you accept it. That I am a witch. Proclaim it. 'Ushiromiya Rosa accepts that Beatrice is a witch'!!": "...I accept it!! U, Ushiromiya Rosa, ...accepts that, ...Beatrice is a witch!! So give Maria back!! Release meeeeeeeeeeeeee!!" : "I've accomplished my perfect victory!! Ku hahahahahahahahakya-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HAH-HA!! Come, bring Maria, prepare a delicious oven roast for Rosa!!": "NoooooooooooooooooooooooMariaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!"   An arm grabbed the back of the witch's head and smashed her face into the table. As it did, the witch broke to pieces, turned into a group of gold butterflies, and reformed into her body a short distance away.  : "Ba..., Battler?!?! Y, ...you bastard, ...you should have surrendered so that even your soul was furniture!!"Surely you all didn't really expect something as minor as signing over his soul and being eaten by goats to be the end of Battler, did you?  : "I had planned to, ...but while I was listening to that gross recipe, I started to get a little hungry." : "And Maria. It's ten years too early for you to talk about having someone eat you. But in ten years, you'll have to say that to me. Promise."goddammit battler you were doing so well on the “not hitting on relatives and children” front  : "...Uu-. Promise." : "Ba, ...Battler-kun...!": "Sorry to keep you waiting, Rosa oba-san. I had forgotten. This was a one-on-one fight between me and this woman. I definitely can't give in. ...Thanks to Rosa oba-san's persistence, I've regained my will to fight!!"...Th, ...this person, he gave up in the depths of his soul, and supposedly surrendered to me... ...I see, he doesn't know when to give up, just what I'd expect from Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandchild...! So the chick of a phoenix is a phoenix after all...!  : "No problem, I'll teach you that I, Ushiromiya Battler, am a man who'll stand back up even after crawling in the mud!! I've never had the experience of being invincible in a fight. I lost many times. But I'll definitely crawl in the mud and stand up again. Then I'll finish this!! In a man's fight, you don't lose until you accept defeat, no matter how much you get beat up!!"And even if you do accept defeat, you get back up anyway and keep going, because oblivion is for quitters.  : "I'll accept your challenge, Ushiromiya Battler!! Furniture, begin preparations for the next game!!  : "Aaah, it's useless, it's all useleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeess!!!"   Blah blah credits, as before there is nothing at all interesting about them.    The shot at the end of the last update was actually from here. For whatever reason Battler isn't actually un-charactered until the Tea Party. Thought it fit better there where it would actually be seen before the miraculous comeback.    Next time: RSPS
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May 12, 2014 07:49
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Shiny777 posted:
Bah, what sort of crazy peson would choose a small plastic card over piles and piles of solid gold? One has this feeling of class and tangibility and the other is just good cause you can stick it in your pocket and move it easily. Also, it'd be a lot harder to beat demon goat butlers to death with credit cards than with gold bars. (Bills suffer from the failings of both, given how annoying it would be to transport that much wealth around in bills or gold and it lacks the shiny of gold. Also, sucks as a weapon)
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May 12, 2014 10:46
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Somehow, although I knew he'd been far too rough with his siblings, until now I'd failed to realise that Krauss used to hit little Rosa hard enough that she got blood in her mouth from it. And that Rudolf could be just as violent as Krauss. drat it, guys.  Eva's bullying of Rosa is awful too, but at least her bullying cleared the low, low bar of not being a grown woman beating up little kids. I mean, Kinzo probably bears the initial blame for it due to likely presenting a violent example for his kids to follow, but there are no signs yet of Krauss and Rudolf being traumatised by it to the point where they would beat up their own children (but their helpless little sister? No problems with that!). But the same can't be said for Rosa.
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May 12, 2014 11:12
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 yukkuri shiteitte ne
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May 12, 2014 16:52
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Basically the entire Ushiromiya family is terrible and Beatrice is perfectly right in purging them from the face of the earth.
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May 12, 2014 19:30
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I think the old saw about gold was that you put 10% of your investment resources in it, and hoped you never profited from that. It's basically a hedge position.
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May 12, 2014 21:21
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Ah, here we go, the first really memorable line in the series and the scene that cements DotG as Battler's theme. This scene is what really made me fall in love with Umineko.
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May 14, 2014 01:07
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See you on the next episode of Ushiromiya Battler: Ace Attorney
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May 14, 2014 01:30
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Shiny777, can you post the Japanese version of the phrase "golden drop" (or better, the whole sentence)? I may be able to figure out what that is. So with Battler's return, can we exclude Rosa as the since as she is present as a third person during his conversation with Beatrice? Dr Pepper posted:Basically the entire Ushiromiya family is terrible and Beatrice is perfectly right in purging them from the face of the earth. But Beatrice killed Genji, Gohda, Nanjo and Kumasawa who are neither horrible nor part of the Ushiromiya family (especially Kumasawa as she is not even a full time resident). On another note, in both episodes, there are people who are clearly dead and those that are unclear (either in terms of their identity or how dead they are). I will list them out here: Episode 1 Obviously dead: Krauss, Shannon, Eva, Hideyoshi, Kanon, Natushi Uncertain: Rudolf (face gone), Kyrie (face gone), Rosa (face gone), Gohda (face gone), Kinzo (completely charred), Genji (face smashed), Kumasawa (face smashed), Nanjo (ditto) Episode 2 Obviously dead: Rudolf, Kyrie, Natushi, Krauss, Eva, Hideyoshi, Jessica, Nanjo (doubtful; no clear examination), Kumasawa (same as Nanjo plus the stake that fell off), George, Gohda, Shannon Uncertain: Kanon (body never found) Combining the two lists together, it should be safe to say that the people who are depicted as obviously dead in both episodes are not the culprit, which would be Krauss, Natushi, Eva, Hideyoshi and Shannon. We can expand the list to include George, Maria and Genji as they are the survivors in the episode(s) where they are not clearly shown as dead. That of course does not preclude anyone from being a pawn of the culprit, but crossing out a few culprit possibilities from the list is a start. Edit: Shiny777 posted:...What has my life been?!!! Jeek fucked around with this message at 08:51 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 08:19
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Jeek posted:Shiny777, can you post the Japanese version of the phrase "golden drop" (or better, the whole sentence)? I may be able to figure out what that is. I can post that for you instead. But, it may disappoint as it's in katakana. quote:白ワインを紅きゴールデンドロップで染めたワインカクテルだ。」 Jeek posted:Can anyone tell me if the bolded part is a mistranslation or a typo? We would have a very curious clue if that is not the case. Going by my version of the game, there isn't any bolded part there in the Japanese text or the English text. Van Dine fucked around with this message at 09:13 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 09:08
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Thanks for posting the original Japanese, Van Dine. Edit: Okay apparently the last drop of the tea is the most valuable because it is the most concentrated or something. This is true for both western and Japanese tea. Van Dine posted:Going by my version of the game, there isn't any bolded part there in the Japanese text or the English text. I was referring to the fact that Rosa apparently has only one older brother instead of two if we go with the bolded text. Does your version use "siblings" instead? Jeek fucked around with this message at 09:44 on May 14, 2014 |
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May 14, 2014 09:36
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Jeek posted:I was referring to the fact that Rosa apparently has only one older brother instead of two if we go with the bolded text. Does your version use "siblings" instead?  Oops, I should have read more closely. Anyway, the text used there is "生まれた時からムカつく兄と姉がいて！！". The English translation I have is the same as Shiny777 posted, using "older brother and sister".
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May 14, 2014 09:49
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Beatrice clearly doesn't give a gently caress anymore, with Battler she deigned to play mind games and try to convince him with at least a bit of effort, but now she's just "Say I'm a witch or I'll make you eat your daughter". For shame, Beatrice.
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May 14, 2014 11:11
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Szurumbur posted:Beatrice clearly doesn't give a gently caress anymore, with Battler she deigned to play mind games and try to convince him with at least a bit of effort, but now she's just "Say I'm a witch or I'll make you eat your daughter". For shame, Beatrice. She just wants subjugation. To Rosa, Maria is the most precious part of her life, so just forcing her to eat Maria would undoubtedly show that Beatrice owns her for good. But with Battler, he's like a drat roach that keeps coming back, which he can only do because of the strength of his beliefs. The only way Beatrice can own him would be to break down all of his beliefs, which is why she needs the "game".
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May 14, 2014 15:01
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Jeek posted:I was referring to the fact that Rosa apparently has only one older brother instead of two if we go with the bolded text. Does your version use "siblings" instead? Maybe it's because Krauss and Eva did most of the bullying, so she's not including Rudolf in the sentence?
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May 14, 2014 15:44
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It may also just be a slight mistranslation. Japanese doesn't distinguish between singular and plural, right?
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May 14, 2014 19:40
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Jeek posted:Shiny777, can you post the Japanese version of the phrase "golden drop" (or better, the whole sentence)? I may be able to figure out what that is. Surely, we have to presume that none of this actually happened? The whole 'is Beatrice a witch who's murdering people?' thing is slightly undermined if, in the meta-universe, a witch who's murdering people clearly exists.
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May 14, 2014 21:07
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Jeek posted:Shiny777, can you post the Japanese version of the phrase "golden drop" (or better, the whole sentence)? I may be able to figure out what that is. Was it not said that anything Battler does not see can't be taken at face value. I don't remember nor do I feel like checking but which of the clearly dead corpses did Battler see in both.
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May 14, 2014 21:48
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MonsterEnvy posted:Was it not said that anything Battler does not see can't be taken at face value. I don't remember nor do I feel like checking but which of the clearly dead corpses did Battler see in both. Okay I will do a recap of what Battler actually saw then. I have bolded the names of people who are 100% dead and witnessed by Battler. Episode 1 First murder: Six obviously dead bodies ("can't count on one hand" plus Hideyoshi's confirmation). Four were dressed as Rudolf, Kyrie, Rosa and Gohda but their faces are mutilated. Krauss had half a face left. The sixth was presumably Shannon with half a face but her identity and her face's status was only described in third person through Hideyoshi. Second murder: No first person description of Battler seeing the body, but unless there wass a great conspiracy going on where everyone including George was faking a reaction, it is safe to say that Eva and Hideyoshi were obviously dead thanks to the drills in their bodies. Third murder: Kanon was killed by stake in the chest and Battler has seen his corpse. A burnt body in the incinerator was supposed to be Kinzo, but there is no proof of identity other than the corpse having six toes on both feet. Fourth murder: Three dead bodies dressed as Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa, but their faces are smashed so their identities cannot be confirmed. Fifth murder (?): Natsuhi was killed by a gun wound in the head, apparently inflicted by herself. Episode 2: First murder: Krauss, Natsuhi, Eva, Hideyoshi, Rudolf and Kyrie were killed and their stomachs stuffed with sweets. Second murder: Jessica had a stake buried in her back, which should prove that she is obviously dead. Kanon's body was not found, but Beatrice established (via red text) that he was killed in Jessica's room (with no further details provided, including the definition of "kill"). Third murder: Nanjo and Kumasawa were apparently killed by a sharp wound on the neck, but the wound was only mentioned briefly. There were stakes on both bodies but Kumasawa's fell off. Fourth murder: George, Gohda and Shannon were killed with stakes fully stuck in the vital regions of their bodies. Accordingly, the only identifiable dead bodies that Battler has seen in both episodes are Krauss, Natsuhi, Hideyoshi and Eva. Jeek fucked around with this message at 09:31 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 09:00
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I'd prefer not to comment (out of fear that people would take it as spoilers) but since you're technically wrong with a couple of things here...Jeek posted:Third murder: Kanon was killed by stake in the chest and Battler has seen his corpse. "Natsuhi realized that even though Kanon was on the verge of death, he was still conscious, so she sent Genji to get the doctor." "Doctor Nanjo and George-aniki carried Kanon-kun to the servant room. [...] Kumasawa-san and Jessica accompanied them." "Judging by the large amount of blood lost and the ruthless shape of the weapon that had fallen carelessly to the ground, ...I figured that Doctor Nanjo's treatment would probably end in vain..." "However, at the time we carried Kanon here, it was already...too late." If Battler's now counting himself as one of the "we", it would seem to contradict his earlier narration, but whatever. "Jessica was crouched in the corridor, crying in anguish. She had probably been taking care of Kanon until the moment of his death." Jeek posted:Fourth murder: George, Gohda and Shannon were killed with stakes fully stuck in the vital regions of their bodies. "Nearby, in the sea of blood [Shannon] lay in, a demon's stake had fallen..." "There was a gaping hole in Shannon-chan's head, and her insides were dripping out. Not only that, ...you could even see, ...inside her." This is kinda minor, but yeah, while I wouldn't say the stake was fully stuck she's pretty clearly dead.
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May 15, 2014 17:16
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Part Forty-Five: Super Paper  Click to watch the ???? Tea Party.    : "*cackle*cackle*. My, my, your point is harsh as always. ...I was only bragging that this development was compelling enough to satisfy even the boredom-hating Lady Bernkastel. What a harsh response." : "...Well, I'll accept that it was compelling. ...However, it was horrible as a fair game. You need the conditions to be a little more even-": "...Are you saying that there's no way to win? Even for Lady Bernkastel? ...*cackle*cackle*.": "...I wonder what you mean by that, Beato." : "Were you planning on hiding it? You're a outrageous person to come into someone else's territory from such a great distance and work against me. You came to watch from the sidelines, and probably to push strongly for my defeat. I've guessed right, haven't I...?": "...And if so?": "...*cackle*cackle*! Truly interesting! That I should be granted a chance to fight with Lady Bernkastel, the strongest of witches who defeated Lady Lambdadelta, is truly a pleasure!!": "...Yes. I'm also pleased. I really wanted to see you, brimming with confidence, fall apart and lose, so I came all this way.": "What an honest person. *cackle*cackle*!! Even so, it would be a shame if the contest between me and the great Lady Bernkastel was resolved without at least one observer.": "...You called her, didn't you. That child."  So meet Lambdadelta, our third witch. Like Bernkastel, she's connected to Higurashi, though not quite in the same way. She's not a witch version of one of the characters, but she is connected to one of them.  Specifically, Miyo Takano, the main villain of Higurashi. It's heavily implied that Higurashi was another witch game, with Lambda playing Takano's side. There's a bit more to their connection, but I'll cover that later. It's in one of the sidestory TIPs. They're supposed to have some naming similarites, with Takano's first name being written with the characters for 3 and 4, and Lambda having the 3rd and 4th Greek letters for her name. Except Ryukishi hosed up there because Lambda is the 11th letter. She'd have to be Gammadelta for it to work out properly. EDIT: It's been pointed out by Idran that Lambdadelta actually does work, because Lambda is also 30 in Greek numerals.  She also bears some resemblance to Satoko Hojou in appearance and a few mannerisms, but as far as I know there's nothing solid indicating Lambda's more connected with her than any other given Higurashi character. : "...How are you, Lambda? Looks like you also have free time. I wonder if it's fate that the pair who hate boredom should run into each other again...?" : "Stupid kid. Why can't you realize that the only reason you won against me was because of a little luck and a problem of compatibility? After that, you became such a braggart, and now you're even picking a fight with Beatrice? Shouldn't you learn your place? *giggle*, Beatrice is strong. And she's even more brutal than I am. Just a little!" : "...You're dumb too, Beato. If this kid's in your game, she'll make a mess of everything.": "I really didn't just bring Lady Lambdadelta here to watch from the sidelines. After informing me that you were betting against me, she said that she would bet against you.": "...You're still holding a grudge, aren't you." : "Hoh-hoh-hoh-ho!! Because I'm the strongest witch in the universe. But I lost to you so I'm not the strongest! So anyone who is your enemy is my ally!!": "*cackle*cackle*! In that case, with the great Lady Bernkastel as our opponent, it may not count as a handicap, but it will be suitable for entertainment.": "...Do as you like. ...Now that I've been exposed, allow me to get serious.": "That would be suitable. 'Going easy' has never been written in my dictionary. *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*! Lady Lambdadelta, let us enjoy our valuable relationship this time." : "Yes, I'll be counting on you, Lady Beatrice! I've been terribly betrayed by her. Unless the two of us smash her up and pay her back double, I won't be able to rest!!": "...I'll be counting on you, Lambda. And Beato. ...No matter what issue we fight over, this will be a very significant battle for us.": "That's right. Of course, I don't feel like losing, but who wins and who loses will be important." : "...That's right. I should thank you, Beato. It looks like I can finally escape boredom. Do your best to entertain me. Together with Lambdadelta.": "Leave it to me. *cackle*cackle*...!!": "If we're decided, Beato, then let's start a strategy meeting right now! I know all of this girl's weak points, and I'll teach you all of them!": "And yet, Lady Lambdadelta, you were defeated by her, *cackle*cackle*...!" : "*cackle*cackle* hahhahahahahahaha! ...She's never boring, that Lady Lambdadelta.": "...Isn't she? Take care of her. She's a lonely person.": "I see. So she's one of 'those' that are popular these days. *cackle*, as expected from Lady Lambdadelta. Quite cutting edge. *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*.": "Go already. That child's waiting for you to chase after her.": "...Then, if you'll excuse me. See you next game. *cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*cackle*!" : More importantly, ...things sure got ugly. I thought I'd experienced a very tragic end in Lambda's game, ...but this time, ...it's exceptionally horrible. ...It isn't as though I don't understand that feeling which makes you hug your knees and close your heart. If you meet that end several more times, your heart will be killed without having to wait one hundred years.  This particular track was also in Higurashi. If I remember right, it mostly played for the bits involving the Sea of Kakera. : ...I am a witch who was born from there. ...So maybe I'm like an older sister to you. So I decided that I'd lend you my power. However, ...even compared to my fate, ...yours is, ...truly brutal. Not only do I sympathize with you, I'm almost brought to tears by your tragic fate. But please, don't lose heart. Please don't submit to Beato, no matter what. Certainly, that child's game is quite unfair. I've only been allowed a glimpse of the game board, but the unfair and clever devices set up on the stage are so disgusting that they probably far surpass those of Lambdadelta's game board. : Since when we are in trouble, we try to seek out our opponent's strategy by looking at their moves, this creates a very formidable amount of noise in our information. This could cause a troublesome amount of disorder. ...However, as in chess, a player might be able to create some noise for their opponent with a useless move, but they would still miss out on a more valuable move. In other words, it's not like your opportunities to take advantage of it are zero. Although you may not be able to believe it, this game was also like that. ...Even though those developments looked so overpowering, ...there actually was a weak point. One that makes me want to take advantage of it. ...Even though I don't know if it's a trap or if she's testing us. : What's the most important element in defense during a witch's battle? Rather than trying to win, try not to lose. ...If you lose when you accept her, then you definitely must not accept her. ...Making you accept witches. There is no longer any doubt that this is one of Beatrice's victory conditions.Was that ever actually in doubt? : Now that I have announced that I am your ally, I too will make as great an effort as possible to lend you my power. Make an effort yourself as well. If you're still hugging your knees, quickly stand back up. Another little Higurashi reference, and one that'd also be a hint toward Bern's connection with Rika if I hadn't already mentioned that they're (sort of) the same person. Those were a couple of the assorted sounds Rika made. Sort of like Maria's “uu-”ing except less annoying because she didn't tack them onto 90% of her dialogue. Though it might have also helped that the patch I used for Higurashi didn't have the voices. :...It's so embarrassing, doing this. ...I've done this much for you, so quickly stand back up.   :Even so. Just like usual, the pieces Bern chooses are pretty shabby. It's the same with chess, right? If all of your pieces were pawns, you would have zero chance to win, right? If all of your pieces were rooks and bishops, you definitely wouldn't lose.Unless the other guy has nothing but queens. : ...W, well, last time, I felt just a little pity and said that she could advance her pieces from anywhere she wants, and then that idiot Bern, without taking notice of my compassion, started with a-ll of her pawns on my side of the board!! What's up with that, that wasn't a loss or anything!! Aaah, just remembering that makes me queasy. Because of that, I won't be able to rest until I see Bern's speechless face. Because of that, and because someone like you is Bern's piece, I'm feeling just great! : C'mon, laugh with me, oh-hoh-hoh-hoh-ho! ...Wait a sec. Are you still hugging your knees? You're already like this just because Beato got a little serious? Could you be any more pathetic? You're so pathetic, I'll help you just a little bit. I, the great Lady Lambdadelta, the Witch of Certainty and the strongest in the universe, will associate myself just a tiny bit with you and your hopeless chances at winning. You should thank me. You know, Beatrice may really be a cruel and powerful witch, but she's no match for me. Why? Because she's soft. : Almost all of the various attacks that are painful for you and Bern, look like utter waste and overkill to me. ...In other words, this means that she has a weakness, and you have a chance. See? She isn't an opponent to be afraid of, right? She is sometimes mistaken in her strategy and goals. And she has too much bad fun. As a result, she even makes and exposes her own weak points. It's impossible for one of the strongest witches like me to understand why she acts so relaxed. Why she lowers her own chances of winning. ...But, well. Because of that, the type of witch like Bern, who thoroughly reads her opponent, has a really bad affinity with her. Because reading her doesn't work. ...Maybe it's really easy for Bern to read and handle an obedient and honest type like me. It makes me mad! : If I'm paper, Beato is rock. Which means Bern is scissors. Well, maybe that doesn't matter. Lambda  : It looks like you regained a little of your complexion. That Beato, she's having fun torturing some piece called Rosa. At a glance, you'd think she has a really bad habit, right? Wrong. ...She's just killing time, hoping that you'll stand back up and return. It's a move to fire up your righteous indignation by intentionally doing something detestable. Ah man, I hate kids like that! Well then, I'll return. : I, the strongest witch in the universe, had my seat as the strongest stolen when I lost to Bern! So I have to take that seat back from Bern, but if Bern loses to Beato here, then the position of the strongest will be moved to Beato this time, right?! ...Well, I'm not really complaining. It would be easier to steal it back from Beato, but then I wouldn't be satisfied, you see?! I will defeat Bern! And I'll take back my position as the strongest! So where things stand now: -Bern is allied with Battler/the audience and opposes Beatrice -Beatrice is allied with Lambda -Lambda is also allied with Battler/the audience, but still opposed to Bern -Also Lambda is tsundere for basically everyone involved Fuckin' witches, man.  And that's it, Episode 2 is finally finished. So I guess I'll be spending the weekend binge-recording for Ep3, since I've been coasting up until now on a giant pile of screenshots I took last summer. But first, on to the bios and TIPs.   New bios for Beatrice and Bernkastel.    And on the TIPs screen proper, we've got a new button on the Characters page. But we'll get back to it in a minute. First, executions.   As before, there's a rundown of who died when.     So Shannon essentially got everyone killed for a shiny golden placebo. Way to go, Shannon! Now, remember that Next button on the Characters page? Let's click that.   It takes us to a second page just for the supernatural characters + alternate bios for a couple of the humans. The bios for Beatrice, Lambda, and Bern are unchanged from the ????, so let's just skip those.      Doesn't seem like a particularly rare power, considering that Beatrice can field an arbitrary number of goats with the same magic weapon as him, but whatever you say TIPs.   Now, let's check out that weird symbol...  All seven Stakes get lumped into one slot. Clicking the symbol cycles through their bios. It does so randomly, but I put them in order here. And they all unlock at once even though we've only actually met Satan, Beelzebub, and Asmodeus. First up, the big L, representing Pride. Needs no introduction. Has somehow been reduced from ruling over hell to playing minion for a witch. How thou art fallen, O daughter of the morning.  Second, Leviathan of Envy. Man, Leviathan was the real winner of that trio. Dominion over one of the big seven sins -the second deadliest, even!- one of the most famous archetypal sea monsters, plenty of exposure, pretty sweet deal all around. Behemoth did all right too, though, getting to be a recognized word for “ridiculously huge thing” and getting its name slapped on plenty of giant endgame monsters and all that. You know who lost, though?  This guy right here. When was the last time you saw the Ziz in something? No one remembers the Ziz. No one cares about the Ziz. Maybe because a giant griffonbird just doesn't resonate as well as “bigass sea monster” and “giant bull thing or whatever” for some reason? Or maybe it's just that Ziz is a pretty stupid name. I dunno. Whatever the reason, the poor griffonbird sits alone and unloved, looking at his siblings in the spotlight and shedding a single sad, lonely tear.  They should have put it in charge of envy, really.  Third up, Satan of Wrath, another famous one. The Binsfeld classification runs with Lucy and Satan being separate beings. Alternate classifications give Wrath to some chump demon called Amon, who only gets like half a dozen sentences on Wikipedia. What a loser.  I mostly know Belphegor as “that demon on the toilet from SMT.” But she's got a pretty solid Wikipedia entry behind her, so she's at least no Amon. Though it makes it sound like she'd fit better with Lust than Sloth, but whatever, I'm not going to question the demonologists on this one.  Mammon of Greed, another demon who apparently has some legit infernal cred but who I'm barely familiar with. However, while Belphegor is just some largely forgettable demon on a toilet in a few SMT games, Mammon got to be the namesake of a space hedgehog draining machine/endgame boss in Chrono Trigger. I'm gonna call that a narrow win for Mammon.  Pictured: Beelzebub of Gluttony, the Lord of the Flies. Not pictured: flies. Also that's a pretty  final paragraph. And last, Asmodeus of Lust. I mix her up with Astaroth in my head all the goddamn time. And yes, all seven are just the same sprites with different hair. At least it's a step above straight palette swaps.  Execute does nothing here.  Nothing new from Beatrice if we switch over and Execute her in the normal tab. Next time: Predecessor Shiny777 fucked around with this message at 11:36 on Jun 12, 2014 |
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May 25, 2014 08:08
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Ah, Lambdadelta. I've been waiting for her appearance. One of my favorite characters. You can see why already with the whole 'Super Paper' business.
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May 25, 2014 08:36
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And one of most hilarious characters makes her appearance. Super Paper alright. As for the Seven, I've always gone with they're simply named after their namesake sin, rather than being the actual Seven Prince(sse)s of their specific one, regardless of what they claim. One big reason being that by any account they should be stronger and higher ranked than those 72 of the Ars Goetia. Also fan-favorites, and for good reason. All that bickering. It may have been mentioned earlier but the Stakes are another callback to Higurashi, as they're all wearing the Angel Morte uniform.
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May 25, 2014 08:46
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So does blue-hair actually feel sorry for Battler? Her face is...incredibly expressionless. Or is she bullshitting us like the rest?
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May 25, 2014 08:48
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Artificer posted:So does blue-hair actually feel sorry for Battler? Her face is...incredibly expressionless. Or is she bullshitting us like the rest? Ah, don't think too hard about it (for now). It'll become pretty obvious later on. And yeah, Bern has great expressions.
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May 25, 2014 09:18
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Just one correction: lambda is the 11th letter, but it stands for 30 in the Greek number system, so Lambdadelta does mean 34.
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May 25, 2014 10:20
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Shiny777 posted:
Well this is an interesting line. If Lamba's not lying, then that means that entire thing with Rosa was to get Battler ready to go again. Though, uh, why. She had already won.
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May 25, 2014 16:58
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| # ? May 1, 2024 23:34 |
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Dr Pepper posted:Well this is an interesting line. Is winning the only thing that matters? Or is the game, perhaps, more fun when it can continue? Or are there levels of victory that certain entities are not prepared to accept?
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May 25, 2014 20:24
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