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Arsonide posted:I think I'm liking the Skaven team you bastard
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Sep 12, 2014 13:48
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fool_of_sound posted:you bastard Rats are the best, don't hate. They are such jerks 
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Sep 15, 2014 03:23
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True story: I one time I won a game with only a single gutter runner left on the pitch.
siggy2021 fucked around with this message at 17:46 on Sep 15, 2014 |
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Sep 15, 2014 03:28
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Typical skaven victory.
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Sep 15, 2014 05:00
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So I took an inordinate amount of time going over GNU Order's racial flowchart from earlier in the thread, because as a new player I felt like it was a good resource to get me started, but I noticed that there were races missing from it. So I started by adding those, and rewording some things, and adjusting the links to look a little nicer...and well, it just kept going until I had this: The idea is that new players start with human, play a few games, and determine what they like about that race. The links branch out from there explaining the aspects that change from race to race, so if you like Chaos Dwarves, but you want more player development, try Chaos, and so on. I added the missing races, reordered a few things based on suggestions from people like cKnoor, and colored each race based on their tier. I tried to limit my own opinions and use opinions from people that actually have experience with the game, because, like I said, I'm new. When it comes down to the tier colorings, what I did was get the tier opinions from people that ran tournaments for each race at high, middle, and low TVs, and averaged those with Games Workshop's opinions. Then I weighted the resulting list against actual win rate stats from FUMBBL. The result is a combination of where people perceive a race's strength with how they actually perform. It's a rough estimation, but I think it works. Teal is a top tier team, and the "hotter" a color gets, the lower the tier, with yellow being average teams like Orc and Human. That doesn't mean that an Orc player can't kick a Dark Elf team's rear end, it just means that Dark Elves have a higher ceiling (I guess). As GNU Order said when he first posted his chart, this is all subjective, and people can disagree and fiddle with the position of things on the chart forever - nobody will ever agree on one particular chart, but this works as a rough estimation for people new to the game in my opinion. Anyway, I thought it'd be a good resource to post, so here. I'm going to use it to do a campaign with each race to determine how I go through the chart, and find a race that works for me.
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Sep 16, 2014 01:17
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Sep 16, 2014 03:41
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Arsonide posted:So I took an inordinate amount of time going over GNU Order's racial flowchart from earlier in the thread, because as a new player I felt like it was a good resource to get me started, but I noticed that there were races missing from it. So I started by adding those, and rewording some things, and adjusting the links to look a little nicer...and well, it just kept going until I had this: I think of things completely differently I guess. I think the most ideal starting teams are Orcs, Skaven, Dark Elves, or Undead. Humans are such generalists that they require a completely unique playstyle, wherein you take advantage of your opponent's weaknesses, in my opinion the team takes quite a bit of experience to play. However your chart is good enough that you can apply my philosophy and then think about what you like about a particular team and then refer to your chart. The only real flaw that I see is that you make no distinctions between running, passing, and bashing teams. But like you said people could organise a chart like this forever, but those are the lines I'd draw mine with. Do you have the spreadsheet or other type of file that you used to make this with? Could you make it available for download? I kind of want to make one of these charts and post it in the OP.
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Sep 16, 2014 05:12
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I won a tourney game on fumbbl yesterday with tv1700 nurgle, 1 tackler and 0 claw or po vs a tv2300 He team. My master chef got first half 2 out of 3 rrs and then 3/3 in the 2nd half. I love it when a lucky plan comes together 
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Sep 16, 2014 10:04
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I think that Slann are actually less offensive than Amazons, but as you say, a lot of it is personal.
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Sep 16, 2014 14:51
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goatface posted:I think that Slann are actually less offensive than Amazons, but as you say, a lot of it is personal. It depends on your definition of "offense." Amazons are vastly more bashy than Slann but Slann are more offensive in the sense that they are built to play offense and quickly get the ball into the endzone.
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Sep 16, 2014 14:59
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I am really glad to have seen the chart, because it gave me a word to describe what I am finding so neat about Chaos, "development". But are they really only as good as Vampires? I'm new to the game, but even though everything says Chaos starts off hard I am having a better time with them than I am with many other "better" teams. Is this just luck? Or perhaps that a fresh chaos team is remarkably straightforward?
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Sep 16, 2014 15:41
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Chaos are better then vampires in the beginning. Chaos are better then vamps in the middle and chaos are better then vamps in the end. But vamps can become pretty good at high TV just not broken like chaos.
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Sep 16, 2014 15:57
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Early chaos is decent. Most similar bashy teams have a way better start though due to having better skills and cheaper players. Chaos main weakness is they start with a lot of useless skills or none at all. Their strength is they have a ton of stats so they become pretty amazing in the late game where they actually have skills. They also have amazing skill access to boot.
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Sep 16, 2014 16:03
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Jester Mcgee posted:I am really glad to have seen the chart, because it gave me a word to describe what I am finding so neat about Chaos, "development". But are they really only as good as Vampires? I'm new to the game, but even though everything says Chaos starts off hard I am having a better time with them than I am with many other "better" teams. Is this just luck? Or perhaps that a fresh chaos team is remarkably straightforward? Chaos starting out has the same trouble as any team without sure hands or high agility and that is just picking up the ball. The lack of starting block can also be problematic. That being said they have the least weaknesses of any team in the game. The lack of agility on skill up can be covered by Mutation with two heads and big hand. Chaos warriors have access to block, guard, claw, mighty blow and if wanted piling on. Beastmen have the same options and they can make decent ball carriers. So all in all while chaos start with no bonus skills the fact they don't need the elusive double on skill up in order to get some of the important skills they quickly catch up with the other teams.
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Sep 16, 2014 16:15
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A totally new Chaos team has some serious issues and needs to be played fairly carefully, I'd still probably make them green on that chart but it's splitting hairs. The chart is great btw, I will probably use this to introduce some friends to the game at some point
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Sep 16, 2014 16:48
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If you put together those tiers based on a combination of opinions and statistics then Chaos should probably be green just based on opinion. They're rough to start but everyone talks them up after they're developed.
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Sep 16, 2014 17:31
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Chaos Warriors are really good.
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Sep 16, 2014 17:34
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Yeah, Chaos is a top tier team, it just has a really rocky start. The same could be said of most of the top teams though.
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Sep 16, 2014 17:42
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I actually think it's more that Vamps (and Khemri) should be orange. They're not quite as poo poo as ogres/goblins/halflings, but they're still quite bad. There is a way to play Vamps that kind of mitigates some of their issues but you're still relying on a very small number of players to do all the work, and if you lose even one of them you're probably hosed. This is similar to khorne (don't lose your big guy). And I think there's a good argument to be made that khorne are actually better than khemri - at least, if you know how to deal with frenzy well. I mean, khorne can at least pick up the ball! I would also make orcs a green team if "green" goes as far down as necromantic, because I don't see necros as being better than orcs. I'm not complaining though, it's a cool chart and like you said, plenty of room for debate but overall it's a useful tool for someone new to the game.
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Sep 16, 2014 18:38
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goatface posted:I think that Slann are actually less offensive than Amazons, but as you say, a lot of it is personal. With eight MA 7 players on the roster, and half of those with diving catch and the ability to Leap on 2+, Slann have a very capable offense. Amazons need to muscle their way to the end zone (don't count on AGI 3 Dodges for escaping tackle zones!). MA6 across the board feels really slow when you're racing the clock to go up 2-1. I consider Zons pure bash. Not murder, necessarily, but they possess just the right skills access to slowly push the pile in the direction they want to go. Without crazy stat rolls, their offensive game plan will never be mistaken for Skaven, Elves or even a generic Human team.
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Sep 16, 2014 19:34
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JT Jag posted:If you put together those tiers based on a combination of opinions and statistics then Chaos should probably be green just based on opinion. They're rough to start but everyone talks them up after they're developed. Like I said, came from multiple TVs on both the statistic and the opinion side of things. Chaos opinion (and stats) are not great in earlier TVs. They're excellent later, which balanced out to "average". I believe they were on the higher side of average though. Leperflesh posted:I actually think it's more that Vamps (and Khemri) should be orange. They're not quite as poo poo as ogres/goblins/halflings, but they're still quite bad. There is a way to play Vamps that kind of mitigates some of their issues but you're still relying on a very small number of players to do all the work, and if you lose even one of them you're probably hosed. This is similar to khorne (don't lose your big guy). And I think there's a good argument to be made that khorne are actually better than khemri - at least, if you know how to deal with frenzy well. I mean, khorne can at least pick up the ball! The first iteration I made of the chart actually had these two teams as orange, because it only took opinion into account. When I threw stats into the mix, they bumped up to yellow, which I guess means they get more poo poo than they deserve. They can perform decently with the right player. Victor Vermis posted:Slann have a very capable offense. Yes, the term "offense" anywhere on here is equivalent to their ability to get the ball down the field, not their ability to bash poo poo. I use other terminology for bashing. Arsonide fucked around with this message at 23:20 on Sep 16, 2014 |
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Sep 16, 2014 22:44
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Unless you've played them, and you said you were a new player, it's easy to under-appreciate how lousy Blood Lust is and how much that takes the shine off of a vampire's good stat line up. Yes, a good player can make them perform decently, but the same is true of Khorne.
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Sep 16, 2014 22:50
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Sir Kodiak posted:Unless you've played them, and you said you were a new player, it's easy to under-appreciate how lousy Blood Lust is and how much that takes the shine off of a vampire's good stat line up. Yes, a good player can make them perform decently, but the same is true of Khorne.
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Sep 16, 2014 23:57
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JT Jag posted:I know a lot of work went into these tiers, but strictly going off opinion and stats means it isn't fully accurate. Skills and skill access should be a consideration as well, and that includes teams that are heavily dependent on players with negatraits. When he said stats he meant the win rate stats from Fumbbl. So it should take the player's actual stat line into account along with their skills and skill access.
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Sep 17, 2014 00:13
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I intentionally avoided tier lists in the original flowchart because the point isn't to try and rank teams, the point was to recommend teams to a newbie and let them try out a bunch of teams. You play a couple matches (say 5 or 10 at most) and move on to another race. Ultimately I think every Blood Bowl player should play at least 10 games with every race (I haven't done this myself yet) but the point was to get people started and let them move through the teams in a way that played towards what they found fun, until they've played enough games that they know which teams they want to play I like the idea of blending race strength opinions with winrate to try and balance out our prejudice and I think it's useful to know at a glance for a newbie which teams are "the good teams" but there's a ton of factors that go into that
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Sep 17, 2014 02:39
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I have a chart. It goes: Dwarf > not dwarf. Foul with your dwarfs. That is all.
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Sep 17, 2014 04:58
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MRLOLAST posted:Chaos are better than vampires in the beginning. Chaos are better then vamps in the middle and chaos are better then vamps in the end. But vamps can become pretty good at high TV just not broken like chaos. Vamps are a definite bottom tier team. Lingering somewhere lower than Amazons but higher than Underworld. And I think they are only good in mid TV when all the vamps have one or two skills. Going over 1600 Tv for them means they have probably lost any kind of chance of winning unless they roll exceptionally good off for a snack rolls, and against any kind of bash they have an exceptionally rough time.
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Sep 17, 2014 05:21
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Washout posted:Vamps are a definite bottom tier team. Lingering somewhere lower than Amazons but higher than Underworld. And I think they are only good in mid TV when all the vamps have one or two skills. Going over 1600 Tv for them means they have probably lost any kind of chance of winning unless they roll exceptionally good off for a snack rolls, and against any kind of bash they have an exceptionally rough time. And I say that Vamps are better at high TV (2000tv+) then lets say.. humans, zons or norse. Any vamp becomes exceptional with stat increases and since they have reg plus apo access they are very durable with blodge+ ss and st4 (not talking about thralls.). But they are not a team for everybody
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Sep 17, 2014 08:36
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I agree with Washout. I think vamps with there high stats and gaze can do well in low to mid tier tv but once their tv starts to bloat they fall off heavily. The vamps biggest weakness is its reliance on thralls and they are being taken out on both sides of the pitch. The higher up the tv you go the easier it is to take out those thralls.
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Sep 17, 2014 17:13
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NiknudStunod posted:I agree with Washout. I think vamps with there high stats and gaze can do well in low to mid tier tv but once their tv starts to bloat they fall off heavily. The vamps biggest weakness is its reliance on thralls and they are being taken out on both sides of the pitch. The higher up the tv you go the easier it is to take out those thralls. Im one of those crasy people who would like to see all the races balanced. Give thralls Av8 and remove the chances of a blood lust causing a KO. Give halflings access to Dryads with Av9 mv 4 str4 agi3. Give Goblins Squigs with agi1 str4 and no hands, ogres should all lose bone head, Khemri mummies should get G access back or remove decay or maybe both, Khorne need all the positionals to start with block at the very least, I can't really think of any more changes, maybe some of the delicate teams should have double apo access. MRLOLAST posted:And I say that Vamps are better at high TV (2000tv+) then lets say.. humans, zons or norse. Any vamp becomes exceptional with stat increases and since they have reg plus apo access they are very durable with blodge+ ss and st4 (not talking about thralls.). Vamps are far and away my favorite team, and I've played hundreds of games with them, but they are just dead meat when played against someone who knows to target the thralls. By the second half your bloated TV because of the deep bench and lack of any positionals is going to mean you are just going to lose by virtue of all that bloat. If you get lucky with the injury and blood lust then you do stand a chance in the second half but that is purely down to nuffle and if you play against TV2000+ bash teams a few games in a row you are quickly going to become a TV1500 team anyway. I think all 3 of the human teams will ruin vamps at those high TV levels, especially humans and norse. Washout fucked around with this message at 19:11 on Sep 17, 2014 |
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Sep 17, 2014 19:00
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In a perfect world, private leagues would be able to rebalance teams however they like. Instead, Blood Bowl 2 will feature elaborate home stadiums.
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Sep 17, 2014 19:14
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Just choose the objectively best and funnest team that owns at all TVs: Chorfs 
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Sep 17, 2014 19:53
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Washout posted:Im one of those crasy people who would like to see all the races balanced. Give thralls Av8 and remove the chances of a blood lust causing a KO. Give halflings access to Dryads with Av9 mv 4 str4 agi3. Give Goblins Squigs with agi1 str4 and no hands, ogres should all lose bone head, Khemri mummies should get G access back or remove decay or maybe both, Khorne need all the positionals to start with block at the very least, I can't really think of any more changes, maybe some of the delicate teams should have double apo access. Khemri thro-ras should get AG3 to start. Dwarves should have to pay a reasonable price for rerolls, say 80k/160k because they're already amazing and that's just insulting. Also their player costs should line up with starting skills. Ghouls should get rez access. Human catchers should be st 3. Go ahead and make them 10K more expensive if need be. Khorne pit fighters shouldn't start with block, but they should have regulars (non-doubles) access to it. Halfling chefs should be reliable (e.g., never steal fewer than 1 rerolls).
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Sep 18, 2014 07:09
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Leperflesh posted:Khemri thro-ras should get AG3 to start. Leperflesh posted:Ghouls should get rez access.
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Sep 18, 2014 08:36
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Leperflesh posted:Khorne pit fighters shouldn't start with block, but they should have regulars (non-doubles) access to it. Their access right now is GP Normal/SA Doubles. Unless you meant Guard, which would be.. interesting.
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Sep 18, 2014 09:01
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I'm fine with ghoul rez access if they lose dodge  Leperflesh posted:Dwarves should have to pay a reasonable price for rerolls, say 80k/160k because they're already amazing and that's just insulting. Also their player costs should line up with starting skills. To my understanding dwarfs cost exactly as much as they should cost when compared to other teams. They have terrible stats which is why they have pretty decent costs. I'm not even sure they need much of a nerf really. While they are good early on they become pretty bad at higher TV. What change they do need is to not be horribly boring.
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Sep 18, 2014 09:19
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My wood elf linelf Dr. Drelf rolled dubs, which I used to get guard, then +agi. The hell do I do with him now?
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Sep 18, 2014 09:56
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Yorkshire Tea posted:My wood elf linelf Dr. Drelf rolled dubs, which I used to get guard, then +agi. The hell do I do with him now? Put guard in those hard to reach places.
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Sep 18, 2014 10:56
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Leperflesh posted:Khemri thro-ras should get AG3 to start. Khemri is fine as is and cant really be balanced imo. ag3 or giving them 4 mb mummies would be way to op in the early game and mm. Old Khemri was broken as gently caress and the only thing you could tweak without breaking would be removing decay so the dont extra punished by claw POMB at high tv. The problem with dwarves is not that they are OP since they are really bad at most tv, the problem is that they completly wreck haflings and gobbos. Removing tackle from the linemen is the obvious answer but i have no clue what they should get to compensate. undead are already borderline OP. Human catchers should be either ag4 or strenght 3 i dont know if thats enough to make them an ok team but íts a start. Khorne is fine as is. completly agree with the chef.
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Sep 18, 2014 15:37
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Yorkshire Tea posted:My wood elf linelf Dr. Drelf rolled dubs, which I used to get guard, then +agi. The hell do I do with him now? Leap.
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Sep 18, 2014 15:48
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