Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

euphronius posted:

Earendil was elvy.

Half-elvy

# ¿ Sep 7, 2016 00:34

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 06:05

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

I gotta say I'm not even mad about having seen the movies first because their version of Orthanc is a million times better than anything I would have come up with.

I think we've talked about it in this thread in the past, but how many of you have played Lord of the Rings Online? I'd be curious to see what you guys think of those depictions of Middle-Earth as well.

# ¿ Sep 7, 2016 18:31

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Interrupting distance-chat to post this because holy poo poo.

Warning: extremely NSFW (dildos). You'll see why I linked it here starting on page 4.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3785918&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=1

# ¿ Sep 9, 2016 03:11

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Honestly the real question now is half-elves: does their junk change if they choose the doom of Man.

# ¿ Sep 9, 2016 19:56

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Bros,

Morgoth's Ring, "Myths Transformed", VIII, pp. 409�411 posted:

In the last of his notes on this topic, dated by his son to late 1950s, Tolkien decided that the Great Eagles were common animals that had been "taught language by the Valar, and raised to a higher level � but they still had no f�ar."

# ¿ Sep 9, 2016 20:08

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

You're blowing my mind here, Elise.

So in this scenario would't the Red Book have had to be censored after the hobbits' death either by Aragorn himself or by a pro-Aragorn faction? Because given Frodo's relationship to Smeagol, and even Sam's thoughts about the Harad soldier, lying about the good deeds of creatures perceived as evil doesn't seem like something either of them would have written.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2016 13:41

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

extra stout posted:

The more grim development of some of these concepts, weapons who's names are symbols of their strength and their sin, falling in love and loving your sister without knowing it's her, but then not changing your mind once you learn it are again retold in a more brutal and direct approach that more closely resembles both Wagner and Shakespeare in The Children of Hurin

Have you read The Story of Kullervo? It's a pretty recent publication that covers the really early evolution of Turin's story, which was originally just an adaptation of the Finnish story about a dude named Kullervo whose family is forced into captivity when he's a child, then he's separated from them for years and when he comes back to take revenge of his family's oppressors he meets his sister whom he doesn't recognize and ends up boning. Everyone dies. . It sounds like it'd be right up your alley.

# ¿ Sep 16, 2016 00:37

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Octy posted:

Yeah, I think they pretty much are just feudal landowners, although Bilbo at least worked to increase his wealth in a way. Frankly, I'm more interested in the social structure of the Elves. They can't all spend their time swanning around like Galadriel, surely.

They spend the rest of it reciting poetry.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2016 05:08

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

euphronius posted:

As for elves I don't think they farm. They are much to blue blood for that. So they probably just don't eat much. But they make bread and wine so who knows. You can make bread and wine from gathering stuff that grows in the wild.

I dunno, I mean elves revere Yavanna a whole lot don't they? I doubt they would see growing things as a lower class occupation. Although I wouldn't be surprised if their version of farming was less manual labor and more singing to the trees or some poo poo.

# ¿ Sep 28, 2016 16:58

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

It's extra baffling how good the LotR films managed to turn out when you consider how loving godawful the Hobbit movies are.

# ¿ Jan 4, 2017 01:27

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Legolas could have stayed in Middle-Earth until Gimli died and then just killed himself to respawn in Valinor and saved everybody some trouble.

# ¿ Jan 31, 2017 12:48

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

I'm the LEAST anti-Dwarvish person that you've ever seen.

# ¿ Feb 17, 2017 21:55

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Octy posted:

A direct descendant from an unbroken line dating back almost 2000 years sounds bloody unlikely, however, I'll eat my hat to see these supposed records.

If you're talking about the "Prince" of Wales, the article mentions that his records were conveniently destroyed in a fire back in 1901.

# ¿ Mar 3, 2017 01:10

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Runcible Cat posted:

I will never stop hoping for the Studio Ghibli Lay of Leithian.

How dare you make me think about this thing that I now want desperately.

# ¿ Jul 24, 2017 20:05

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Please, everyone knows that no further proof was needed after Ioreth backed him.

# ¿ Jul 25, 2017 03:08

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

What's the Last Ringbearer's explanation for how Gandalf gets free of Orthanc if the eagles are propaganda? Are he and Saruman in cahoots or what?

# ¿ Jul 25, 2017 09:25

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

But Eldarion isn't really half Elvish, is he? After Elros chose to be a Man instead of an Elf, his children were not given the ability to choose their doom (unlike Elrond's kids). Eldarion wouldn't really be any more Elvish than Aragorn or even Imrahil, I think.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2017 01:28

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

The lifespan seems to diminish over time but I'm not sure about the intangible "greatness", as evidenced by the fact that Faramir is apparently a true throwback to Numenor while Boromir is not.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2017 02:18

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

sat on my keys! posted:

Even if it doesn't turn up again, the free peoples are still losing the war badly, since its works survive (like the foundations of Barad-dur) and Sauron still has access to most of his native power (which would be increased again if he got it back). They would've been totally defeated if not for the ring's destruction.

Taking an extreme long view, it sort of doesn't matter, though. Wait long enough and the Dagor Dagorath happens and Melkor is defeated. The Men aren't even involved in the Last Battle so ehhh if they all die.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2017 23:12

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

HerraS posted:

Turin Turambar

Iluvatar takes one look at Turin and goes "YIKES you guys can keep this one".

# ¿ Aug 5, 2017 16:26

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

skasion posted:

When rendering myths from this era into Old English Tolkien even rendered "silmaril" as "eorcanstan" so it's pretty obvious.

Okay this is actually super cool. Where did you learn that?

# ¿ Aug 5, 2017 17:40

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

What if it's hemp and the numenoreans grew it for rope

# ¿ Aug 11, 2017 02:40

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# ¿ Aug 11, 2017 04:21

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

quote:

...and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs.

So even if Ungoliant could change shape, she mated with other spider-things and had exclusively spider-thing offspring, which to me is pretty compelling evidence that Shelob is, in fact, a big spider-thing and not a sexy lady. I can't believe someone even came up with this oh my god.

Also that whole "being a mirror to Galadriel" thing sounds like complete bullshit. They only mirror each other in that they're powerful and female. Like, that's it. Someone earlier in the thread pointed out that it's actually Eowyn who is actually a parallel to Galadriel, anyway, since both of them want the exact same thing (agency/autonomy) but go about it in different ways. Shelob's only desire is literally "eat light".

# ¿ Aug 15, 2017 18:07

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

skasion posted:

Sauron definitely isn't supposed to be a relatable villain in the same sense as Saruman. Saruman ultimately is a really petty and pathetic figure, his efforts to become a great tyrant collapse overnight and before you know it he is just a wandering thug who can be sent packing by a harsh word from an even-tempered midget. He is literally humanized, made from a wise angelic wizard who feels obliged to destroy the world to save it into a dirty old man who shits on nice things just because he still can.

With Sauron nothing like this ever occurs and he is never reduced to the level of taking a direct part in the character-level action. We know him only by his works: tyranny over his slaves, devastation over his lands, and a enormous presence that literally overshadows the world. When he finally physically appears after the Ring is destroyed it's not as a person who does personlike things, it's as a giant dark figure in the sky, crowned with lightning, who is abruptly blown away by the wind. This isn't a human, but a god; a Power rather than a person. LOTR Sauron is ironically kind of more convincing as a deity than Morgoth, who after his escapades up to the rape of the Silmarils comes off as a sluggardly ogre who sits in a dungeon all millennium scheming ways of doing wicked things without risking himself, while Sil Sauron acts like a spooky sorcerer and gets his rear end whipped by a talking dog.

I agree with this, but I also feel like the potential for Sauron to be that kind of villain is there moreso than it is for Morgoth. If Sauron's stint in Numenor before the fall had been written in the same style as LotR instead of in the detached/distant format of the Sil, we would have seen Sauron as a contemptible schemer much in the same vein as Wormtongue (only more successful in the end, obviously).

I think Sauron in the Sil at least is a different kind of deity than Morgoth- more of a trickster god (Annatar, him turning into a wolf to defeat Huan) than Morgoth is.

# ¿ Aug 18, 2017 01:14

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

It's got to be rough for him seeing the rights sold immediately after he retired though. Like at least wait until he passes away, jeez.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2017 06:30

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

my bony fealty posted:

The Silmarillion gets a "arghh this is hard to read" reputation but it's really not too bad. The hardest part is the Ainulindal� in the beginning, it's quite a good story that I think turns people off since it's very religious & abstract. The Quenta Silmarillion proper is really exciting and metal as gently caress, don't let the formal writing fool ya.

This gets posted a lot but deservedly so.
http://www.evanpalmercomics.com/#/ainulindale/

# ¿ Feb 9, 2018 23:19

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

euphronius posted:

Maybe but that's not why they were there.

I think he was joking about that. The Dunlendings fought for Mordor and they absolutely would have kicked the poo poo out of Rohan when given the chance.

# ¿ Feb 13, 2018 15:18

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Marijuana posted:

"I have memorized the names of the all the Vala and can even translate some Elven" vs. "I had a poster of Orlando Bloom on my wall as a teen."

Are you a Colbert or a Franco
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMvMeI1kugY

# ¿ Feb 16, 2018 00:51

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

VanSandman posted:

That�s the second film. The third film stretches out three chapters to 90 minutes and suuuuucks.

My only memory of that movie (apart from the liquid gold thing) is being what felt like 5 hours into and thinking "god I hope this wraps up soon", only to realize we hadn't even seen Smaug yet and there were still approximately 17 hours to go.

# ¿ May 23, 2018 19:53

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poisonpill posted:

Are all elves nobility? Are there like peasant elves tilling the field?

Do orks farm? Do they have a hierarchy?

Apparently Tolkien's "Of Lembas" in The Peoples of Middle-Earth talks about this, albeit tangentially.

tolkiengateway.net posted:

The Yavannildi (Quenya for "Maidens of Yavanna"; Sindarin Ivonwin) were the elven-women that knew the secrets to making lembas. Only they were allowed to handle the ear of the corn that would become the wafer.[1]

So the elves grow corn at the very least, although it sounds more like this particular crop was more ritually harvested than left to any old peasant elves. And they are elves, so it's probably less "manual labor" and more singing the plants to grow or some other bullshit.

# ¿ Sep 4, 2018 01:18

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

I would suggest trying to email Christopher Tolkien to ask for a definitive answer re: vagina tentacles, but I don't want to be indirectly responsible for horrifying an old man to death.

# ¿ Sep 11, 2018 03:31

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

cheetah7071 posted:

I'm phoneposting so I can't look up the passage, but isn't Shelob the daughter (descendant?) of Ungoliant by some unnamed male spider monster made by Morgoth? Luthien is half-Maia but her nature is still basically elven. Seems reasonable to me that Shelob's nature would be basically spider monster even if she has a spirit for a mother.

Technically it only says "of spider form", so probably the same amount of spiderness that Ungoliant herself has.

The Silmarillion posted:

With their whips of flame they smote asunder the webs of Ungoliant, and she quailed, and turned to fight, belching black vapours to cover her; and fleeing from the north she went down into Beleriand, and dwelt beneath Ered Gorgoroth, in that dark valley that was after called Nan Dungortheb, the Valley of Dreadful Death, because of the horror she bred there. For other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of Angband, and she mated with them, and devoured them; and even after Ungoliant herself departed, and went whither she would into the forgotten south of the world, her offspring abode there and wove their hideous webs. Of the fate of Ungoliant, no tale tells. Yet some have said that she ended long ago, when in her uttermost famine she devoured herself at last.

edit: this is what I get for not refreshing the page before posting

edit 2: given that evil cannot create life, only twist it, wouldn't normal size spiders be considered like any other animal, ultimately stemming back to Iluvatar and not inherently evil? The giant "foul" spiders would therefore be the twisted version, meaning that it would be impossible for them to be "true" spiders in that sense.

Radio! fucked around with this message at 01:02 on Sep 21, 2018

# ¿ Sep 21, 2018 00:19

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Octy posted:

Throwback to the discussion on Orc immortality. I thought it was fairly obvious by this line from The Silmarillion: 'For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar'.

Then again, Men are also Children so...

On the contrary, I read that to mean that the orcs have free will and their own agency, as opposed to like dwarves when Aule first makes them when they are like weird automatons.

# ¿ Sep 24, 2018 23:29

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

sunday at work posted:

Likewise the Elven Rings were crafted using arts learned from Annatar but the intention behind their making was preservation. There was never any question that the Three could be used for good but as soon as anyone sees The One (except Boromir) they know it's bad news no matter what they would try to do with it.

Inanimate objects can have a disposition but it seems more down to the heart of their creator rather than the means of making.

To add to the list of objects with their own intentions: Sam's Lothlorien rope, which unties itself when he laments about having to leave it behind otherwise.

Are there any objects like that that aren't made by either elves/Maiar though? Or is that kind of crafting part of elves' inherent "elf magic"?

# ¿ Oct 13, 2018 00:18

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

Turns out the Ents at Orthanc weren't angry, they were just super horny the whole time.

# ¿ Nov 15, 2018 23:08

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Runcible Cat posted:

Numenexit.

Numenope

# ¿ Nov 27, 2018 03:02

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WoodrowSkillson posted:

It's Elrond, Galadriel, Sauron, Thrandruil, and thats about it. Even Legolas should not be born yet as while his birth is never directly stated, the implication is he is a younger elf, compared to Thranduil or Galadriel.

There was a Legolas at Gondolin in the early versions of the text. I know it is not the same Legolas

# ¿ Mar 7, 2019 21:42

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

John Garth's Tolkien and the Great War is on sale on kindle today for 2USD for anyone interested. I haven't read it myself so I can't say how it is, but I'm sure at least a couple people here will want to pick it up.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D5FI7GG/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_hsch_vapi_tkin_p1_i0

# ¿ Apr 19, 2019 11:18

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 06:05

Radio!: Mar 15, 2008; Look at that post.

cheetah7071 posted:

There's some letter where Tolkien says that Sauron took their rings back once they were utterly enslaved but I don't think the issue is addressed in the text of lotr

Gandalf tells Frodo

quote:

The Nine he has gathered to himself; the Seven also, or else they are destroyed. The Three are hidden still.

The way he talks about the Seven being destroyed makes me think Gandalf is referring to the rings themselves, as opposed to their bearers, here. But this is also right in the beginning, before the ringwraiths are actually abroad (or before Gandalf knows they are), which makes it a bit ambiguous. It could easily be read either way.

# ¿ Apr 22, 2019 21:11

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