Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

NikkolasKing posted:

If anyone wants to know what is in Unfinished Tales
http://www.ae-lib.org.ua/texts-c/tolkien__unfinished_tales__en.htm

Personally I love it for the section on The Istari. It's an invaluable resource for anyone who loves Saruman and he is by far my favorite Tolkien villain. It gives interesting facts that held settle debates such as Sauron vs. Saruman (it was at least kinda arguable based just on the books but UT kinda says point blank Sauron was "mighter than [Saruman]" and it also offers some insight into Saruman's charactr, such as the fact he was constantly being undermined by Gandalf. Varda herself said Olorin (Ganalf) did not go after Saruman, then Gandalf was given the Ring of Fire instead of Saruman, and then Galadriel wanted Gandalf to be head of the White Council. You can see why he was so jealous of the Grey Pilgrim.

I loved this alternate take too:

I like to imagine this is canon.

Sorry to gush but Saruman to my eyes is the most three-dimensional antagonist Tolkien ever wrote. I love him so much. (and hate what the movies did to him by making him just Sauron's toady)

This is so fantastic right here. Goddamn.

# ¿ Mar 14, 2014 17:39

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# ¿ May 3, 2024 15:30

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Radio! posted:

Aragon and the free peoples don't attack Sauron to destroy him. They know that's impossible without also destroying the Ring- the attack at the end of RotK is just an attempt to draw Sauron's attention away from Mordor to give Frodo a chance to accomplish his mission without being discovered first.

Sauron doesn't know that, though. He'd see Aragorn moving on his front gate as basically a sign that Aragorn has the Ring and is coming to finish him as a meaningful source of power in the world.

Sam's vision about what would happen if he took the Ring basically tells me that someone of sufficient will wielding the Ring would basically become like Sauron. In addition to all of their power, they'd have all of Sauron's concentrated Ringpower, and would be able to dominate and/or diminish Sauron to the point where he's a pointless, useless wraith, but not kill him.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 16:25

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

I think that they would have served whoever bound them to service, using the Ring to do so. Nobody wielded the Ring in that fashion since Sauron, so they still serve Sauron.

# ¿ Mar 24, 2014 19:07

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Ungoal posted:

You were saying it was possible for someone other than Sauron to wield the ring with their own will, and even suggested that they could use it to supplant Sauron which is laughably false, in which these quotes contradict. As long as the One Ring exists, Sauron will always be there to corrupt/destroy them over time, hence the meaning that only Sauron can wield it. The ring can never be used for good nor ones own desires/needs.

Elrond quite clearly says that someone with sufficient power could overthrow Sauron using the Ring, but they would become another Dark Lord in the process. Gandalf says that he would take up the Ring with the intent to do good (so does Galadriel, sort of) and would ultimately end up becoming another Sauron. The Ring is simply power. Gandalf wielding it, in this case, would be someone attempting to be a benevolent dictator. He might even be that, for a time, but he's still a dictator and the lure of keeping, holding, and maintaining that power would ultimately be too much. I don't think that says that nobody could use it to supplant Sauron. Being like something isn't the same as being something.

Radio! posted:

Also I think in the Simarillion there is actually an attempt to distance Galadriel from Feanor's guilt specifically. It's explicitly noted that she doesn't take the Oath, but only goes to Middle-Earth out of her desire to rule a place of her own. She has her own kind of corrupt desires separate from Feanor's kind.

Yeah, she's kind of creepy and its neat to see how someone who initially seems wise (in LotR) takes on a more sinister note after you read the Silmarillion.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2014 01:57

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

"In that despair my enemy was my only hope" doesn't really make it seem like its a nice place. And I didn't think the Balrog lived in those caves either, since the Balrog flees twice in that passage: once from Gandalf into the dark deep places, and once from there back to Khazad-dum.

# ¿ May 21, 2015 19:08

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Ynglaur posted:

I don't think that the secondary results of Feanor's disobedience absolve him of his sins (though I don't think you're saying this). I think your post does highlight the theme that even disobedience and sinfulness can be turned to good.

IIRC, doesn't Eru note that even Melkor's Discord during the Great Music was ultimately born from Eru's will? And that the additional themes Eru brings into the Song only come to counteract the Discord and so eventually add to the beauty of the song, or some such? Its been a while.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2015 13:31

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

my dad posted:

I think Feanor is an annoying git. I'm more of a Fingolfin fan.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aB6CPyO0Ww

Feanor's incredibly interesting in part because he's, uh, very flawed, to be polite.

E: vvvv. I suppose. Both Maeglin and Maedhros are pretty cool to read about too.

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 05:06 on Nov 7, 2015

# ¿ Nov 6, 2015 18:49

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Huh. I'm post a very bloody night shift, but I'll have to think about that a bit.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2016 13:09

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Ok, I don't have my copy in front of me, but I remember the Eagles not only protecting Gondolin's secrecy, but assisting Glorfindel in fighting Balrog's during its fall. Going up against Balrogs seems a bit much for orcs who have a trade interest in keeping Gondolin around, though I suppose if they're afraid that they'll be utterly persecuted by Morgoth now that Gondolin's secret is out, I could see it. That said, if the editors/later writers of the collected works that Tolkien translated decided to substitute eagles for orcs in some, but not all (the rescue of Thorin's company and Gandalf both seem better suited to actual eagles) that kind of implies that they already had an existing tradition of eagles coming to the rescue anyhow, or it'd ring false. All of the "confirmed" eagle rescues come from the hobbit or LotR, and a lot of the guessworked orc theory comes from the Silmarillion era. So, which stories are "older?" Or, where did the tradition of eagles as a deus ex machina device come from?

# ¿ Sep 13, 2016 22:58

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

If you read the snippets of orc dialogue we get closely, it also all implies that they have very long memories. One big question to my mind is whether dead orcs go to Mandos or to somewhere else.

I agree, and thought that was part of the reason there are always so many of them despite their pretty bloody lives in some really lovely environments. If they breed at any semi-decent rate and live very long lives with a decently long fertile period, you're going to get a huge population.

# ¿ Sep 14, 2016 14:28

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

euphronius posted:

The point was to clearly see the armies .

But the wolds, man! I must see the wolds!

# ¿ Feb 2, 2017 01:54

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Teriyaki Hairpiece posted:

Literally = figuratively because language is fluid and ever-changing.

I can't think of another time a word has become its own antonym before, which is kind of neat.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2017 16:56

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

joat mon posted:

cleave
dust
oversight
awful
left
sanguine

While still retaining their original meaning, I suppose. Though I'd like some more detail on some of these. I know "cleave together" but would love to hear more.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2017 17:21

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

sassassin posted:

And in the books the ghosts aren't really a big deal.

They scared some pirates.

They are a big deal in terms of Aragorn's legitimacy claims, though.

# ¿ Jul 25, 2017 17:27

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

sassassin posted:

Is it really? Would anyone have objected to his taking the crown on the grounds of his not waking up some forgotten ghosts in the hills?

Probably not, but the ghost recruitment still added legitimacy to it and gave more cover to people who were supporting him for realpolitik reasons.

euphronius posted:

Didn't the pirates have reinforcements on them

They were the reinforcements to the battle at Pelennor.

# ¿ Jul 25, 2017 21:13

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

sassassin posted:

I see no reason why all those soldiers he brought to Pelennor couldn't have stolen the ships themselves. Laziness?

Boromir would've whipped them into shape had he been around.

They might not have joined the banner of a crazy guy calling himself the heir of Isildur if he hadn't had an army of ghosts sworn to the heir of Isildur in tow. Similarly, the Dead Men essentially terrify the Corsairs into fleeing simply by arriving, letting Aragorn seize the ships without casualties.

# ¿ Jul 26, 2017 03:34

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

sassassin posted:

They're birds, man. Just big, talking birds.

That's incredibly debatable. And its not a debate we should have right now, but the eagles are a bit of a step away from "talking animals" in a lot of ways.

Replacing Glorfindel with Arwen was a good idea executed poorly, and the level of reverence for the source material drops significantly over time, but I'm mostly agreeing with HA.

# ¿ Nov 16, 2017 17:54

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

axeil posted:

Hey, glad to see there's a Tolkien thread. I got really into the books by reading the Atlas of Middle Earth and looking at the maps approximately 8 million times as a kid, butI've never read The Silmarillion because it's a bit too intimidating for me, so I apologize if this is a stupid question.

How is Melkor/Morgoth scarier than Sauron? Or rather why did Melkor get thrown into oblivion while they leave Sauron (and Shelob and Durin's Bane) alone?

It seems like he was just "Sauron, but in the First Age" and doesn't seem all that different from Sauron but with things like armies of Balrogs instead of armies of orcs. Am I missing something?

This is probably all very wrong, but here was my stab at this. There are two main features at play here. Everything was grander in the First Age, for one thing. Galadriel and Elrond are two of the major players opposing Sauron in the Second and Third Ages, but in the First, Galadriel doesn't do much in part because she thinks that Morgoth is beyond the might of the Eldar (this despite her being Feanor's niece) and Elrond does't even feature that I remember. Second, Morgoth also spends a ton of his power trying to directly control and create things that aren't his right to do so, while Sauron spends his time manipulating and corrupting, so he punches above his "weight" so to speak. I also think I remember getting the idea that while Sauron tried to concentrate his power into himself and rule over the people of Middle-Earth, Morgoth tried to assert lordship over Arda itself. Morgoth was actively trying to change the fundamental nature of creation, Sauron just wanted to use it for temporal power, if that makes sense.

So Sauron ends up being a bigger threat to the people of Middle-Earth, but never even tried to do anything about Valinor/Aman, while Morgoth represented a threat (sort of, he could never have won) to all of Arda and maybe Ea.

edit: Ea is all of creation, Arda is all of the world, Middle-Earth is the continent that LotR and some of the Silmarillion takes place in. The Valar are akin to demi-gods while the Maiar are closer to angels. The creation of Ea is portrayed as a song that Morgoth tries to corrupt, which is something that fundamentally, Sauron can't even begin to do. He's part and parcel of the world, though a very powerful figure in it (in part because he is very clever with his power), while Morgoth is powerful enough to think that he could take complete control of creation from, essentially, God. (He can't.)

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Feb 9, 2018

# ¿ Feb 9, 2018 22:12

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

euphronius posted:

Faramir was tempted in the book.

I think right ?

Probably, but not very much. He's wise enough to know that he would be unable to master the Ring, and that using the enemy's weapons against him is dangerous. Given enough time or proximity to the Ring, he would eventually have succumbed, I believe.

axeil posted:

There aren't action sequences/battle scenes in the book like the big battle at the end or the escape from Goblintown? Not trolling, I'm legitimately asking.

In the book that sequence is roughly "and they took off running into the dark, with Orcrist and Glamdring biting into any goblins that didn't immediately flee. Bilbo slipped and fell. (riddles in the Dark happens and Bilbo rejoins the Dwarves." The dwarves told him briefly of their escape." Its maybe a page. The Battle of Five Armies is also really brief, and roughly goes "the elves and men formed up on one side of the valley and Dain's dwarves formed up on the other to fight off the goblins. It looked bad, then suddenly Thorin sallied from the gates and almost killed Bolg the orc leader, but it wasn't enough and he and some other dwarves got injured/killed. Then Bilbo sees the Eagles coming, gets knocked out, and is told in a flashback that Beorn showed up, defended Thorin's position and killed Bolg himself." Its really, really brief.

e: Read the Hobbit since its so quick, but if you liked poring over the maps of Middle Earth, you'll like the Silmarillion. Its good.

# ¿ Feb 9, 2018 22:34

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

skasion posted:

Tolkien actually said, interestingly enough, that Sauron at the end of the Second Age was more powerful than Morgoth at the end of the First: Morgoth had spent his strength in marring Arda, he had let so much of his essence pass into the world that it had permanently diminished him from the greatest of created beings to a figure who, for example, could be lulled into sleep by an elvish song or permanently wounded by an elvish sword. Sauron had also let his power pass out of himself into the Ring, but while he wielded the Ring, had not lost it the same way as Morgoth. Mind you, he could still, with the Ring, be embarrassed by Ar-Pharazon�s army before the fall of Numenor or be fought to a standstill by an elf and a particularly swole man after it, so maybe we should take Tolkien�s commentary with a grain of salt here.

That's specifically saying that at the absolute height of Sauron's power, he did in fact surpass Morgoth at the absolute nadir of his power, which doesn't say much about their relative strengths. But "power" is always an interesting thing; even near the height of Morgoth's power he's able to be wounded by Fingolfin and loses the ability to shapeshift while Sauron still can; and I think that's because of how much power Morgoth is throwing into trying to control Arda himself. He wants to control Arda in a spiritual sense, not in a mundane one Sauron. Kings may rule over the lands, but Creation is God's. Morgoth is trying to usurp that control, and it has necessarily diminished him. Sauron can't even begin to try, and so under certain situations Sauron probably could have defeated Morgoth, but that doesn't reflect how they were overall. That's like saying I could kick the Rock's rear end just because I fought him while he was on his deathbed and I was at the prime of my health.

e: Also as mentioned, Sauron is much smarter about how he uses his power.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2018 00:20

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

skasion posted:

Height of Morgoth’s power is way before he fights Fingolfin, back when he set up Hell and trashed the gods’ entire paradise at Almaren and sent them running scared to Valinor and literally was king of the whole world. Everything he does in the War of the Jewels proper is the act of someone who has already fallen most of the way from his original greatness and is reduced to tyrannizing only the northwesternmost fragment of his former realm from his own former border outpost.

Yeah definitely, I'm not sure what I meant by that at all. Thanks.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2018 02:58

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Cornwind Evil posted:

If you took the One Ring, buried it at the bottom in the deepest mine you could find, then collapsed the mine shafts and hence bringing the entire mine down on it, what do people think would happen? Would it just sort of call out for people to come dig it up, or just work its way back up to the surface like the world is a human body expelling a splinter or something?

I suppose the actual answer is 'The Ring won't let you bury it in the first place', but that's a cheat.

A Balrog would live there, or dwarves/goblins/men would somewhat inexplicably decide to mine there, or a nameless creature that live underneath the mountains would find it, or an earthquake would bring reveal the former mineshaft, the mountains themselves might move (Caradhras has some level of sentience in the book), or something else. Remember, they discuss sending it to the bottom of the sea and the answer is "the tides would eventually bring it back." Collapsing a mindeshaft on it, or tossing it into the sea, would certainly work to keep it from Sauron for quite some time. The problem is that Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond believe that as long as the Ring remains, Sauron will endure and therefore, eventually, win. If the Ring remains, Sauron cannot be destroyed (at least by the current inhabitants of Middle-Earth). Hoping that you'll be able to keep the Ring from Sauron forever is foolish because eventually, you'll fail.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2018 02:59

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Ginette Reno posted:

Yeah it's a foolish plan. In Return of the King men are able to fight off Sauron's army and it's revealed that it's only one army for him and there's a lot more where that came from. It's basically stated that Sauron has pretty much limitless might compared to the good guys and that eventually he'll overwhelm them through sheer numbers if the ring isn't destroyed. He has basically all of the Southern kingdoms under his sway at that point plus countless orcs he's been breeding.

Even without the ring he was gonna win. It had to be destroyed, that was the only hope for success.

Right. And lets say Gondor does win. Sauron's armies are defeated and Barad-dur is thrown down. He'll flee, and lurk in the dark corners of the world gathering power until he's forgotten and the watch on Mordor fades. Eventually Gondor will tire of guarding against an ancient evil they can barely remember, and he'll return. He'll either sneak back and corrupt someone, or people will have gone complacent again and he'll just try again.

# ¿ Feb 12, 2018 12:26

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Ginette Reno posted:

But again, where else could they go? The Black Gate would have been impossible without using the Ring and if they did Sauron would have immediately detected them. Trying to sneak by Shelob is not the best idea either but probably a little less tough than walking right past Sauron's office.

If I'm remembering the passage right though Gandalf says something like: "Cirith Ungol? Why that way?" And it's like dude what other way ya want em to go.

Well, his plan presumably didn't involve the Fellowship fracturing so they'd still have everyone there. He could have enlisted Gondor's aid more directly, or Galadriel's. Aragorn showing up in Minas Tirith with Boromir's backing is a very different state of affairs. Also, we're told that Cirith Ungol is the only route over the mountains by, iirc, Gollum, who has a reason to lie. Gandalf successfully sneaked into Dol Guldur while Sauron was there and Aragorn has been hunting along that area of the world for awhile, so between them they might have had a different route.

I think I remember Gandalf basically saying "whyyy" and then coming to the same conclusion that he really didn't have a better suggestion for them to have gone with their information.

e: And its clear I misremembered too, so thanks for the passage.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2018 16:34

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Glorfindel also has weird poo poo going on since he explicitly died in the Silmarillion iirc.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2018 21:31

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

cheetah7071 posted:

One thing I noticed in a recent reread is that, once you've read the Silmarillion, the much-vaunted depth to Middle-Earth in Lord of the Rings shrinks down massively. There were multiple points where I found myself asking if anything that wasn't in the Silmarillion ever happened in Middle-Earth. Like, were there any heroes at all in between Earendil and Frodo? One of the perils of pulling back the curtain, I guess.

Tons, but they're in the appendices.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2018 22:11

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Bongo Bill posted:

Was it called the Shire at the time Angmar was still in the area? Was it even settled?

I'm checking on the timeline, but also hobbits have some bizarrely preternatural way of not attracting attention. Not explicitly magically or anything, they just...don't.

e: Yes. The Shire was founded in 1601 and was part of the kingdom of Arthedain, itself a part of Arnor. Arthedain was overrun by Angmar sometime after 1974, though why the Shire wasn't included, I'm not sure. Angmar was founded sometime around 1300. All dates are in the Third Age.

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 04:00 on Jul 31, 2018

# ¿ Jul 31, 2018 03:45

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Yeah, I thought the Mouth's design looked good enough that I didn't care, but Gothmog just didn't look great and I still haven't decided whether he was a wraith or a man.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2018 17:24

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

euphronius posted:

Well yeah they aren�t landing an army and marching to Angband but they are still present in and influencing middle earth

Yes, through the Istari (and maybe the Eagles)

# ¿ Aug 3, 2018 17:48

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Bongo Bill posted:

Gandalf was a Maia of Aul� and as such was not above breaking a few eggs for his omelet.

He's Manwe's, with Nienna a close second.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2018 03:20

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

BravestOfTheLamps posted:

This is very toothless writing.

Oh good it's you :geno:

# ¿ Aug 28, 2018 12:56

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

The orcs having an incredibly long lifespan and a semi-normal rate of reproduction, however it may be, goes a long way to explaining how there's always so loving many of them

# ¿ Sep 5, 2018 18:48

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

http://pyrrhiccomedy.tumblr.com/post/152255810742/first-things-first-we-actually-do-know-what-elves No idea who this tumblr is or whether its properly credited, but I think this is Elise's original post in full.

# ¿ Sep 10, 2018 16:18

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Bongo Bill posted:

Gondolin had an extremely well-stocked armory, and who knows what might've been carried out during or after the sack?

Yeah, I feel like the easiest explanation is that it was taken from Gondolin during its fall and carried by various people ever since.

e: Though wasn't Glamdring Turgon's sword? He died in Gondolin's fall too.

# ¿ Sep 20, 2018 02:18

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

The whole concept of the video game bothers me. The idea that you, as the protagonist, are making another Ring of Power just has "MISSING THE GODDAM POINT" stamped all over the screen in letters of fire.

Uh, yeah, it ends badly for basically everyone involved.

# ¿ Sep 21, 2018 23:11

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

skasion posted:

It was certainly a choice. It generally has the effect of making Frodo look even worse though, and everyone else worse for continuing to back him. It's impossible to imagine Wood Frodo undergoing the transfiguration into a magic, almost godlike figure that the book's Frodo does on Mt Doom, which is probably why they literalized its effect into Frodo just wrestling with Gollum for a bit.

Sam's not just hanging around, hes the help ffs.

Sassassin seems weirdly determined to view everyone in LotR in the worst light possible as some bizarre thought experiment or something.

# ¿ Nov 24, 2018 03:17

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

euphronius posted:

The orcs you need to do the looting were destroyed by the valar and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.
.

There is a pretty significant time delay between the fall of Gondolin and the Valar blowing up that part of the world.

# ¿ Feb 7, 2019 14:58

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

euphronius posted:

I�m not moved by that argument so much tho I do see your argument. Also why didn�t he change the Hobbit references in the retconned second version ?

Also he had publicly performed the fall of gondolin and also Tuor which includes Gondolin in the 1920s iirc. It may have also been in a student magazine but my memory is murky on that.

Because, perhaps, he actually meant that Gondolin was Gondolin, unlike your weird interpretation where Gondolin can't be Gondolin because there's no reasonable way for the swords to get from Gondolin to Eregion except for the way that Elrond describes them probably getting there.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2019 15:24

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

euphronius posted:

He did not. The hobbit wasn�t in the same connected universe with Gondolin when he wrote it.

I see. So, by invoking authorial intent that somehow overlooks the fact that he chose to maintain the names of things when he wrote both books, you're ignoring the actual text. Weird, but you do you I guess.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2019 16:05

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# ¿ May 3, 2024 15:30

Ravenfood: Nov 4, 2011

euphronius posted:

You have the burden of proving they are from gondolin. I don�t have the burden of proving they are not.

You can�t meet the burden of proof by relying on LOTR. Nothing in LOTR says these swords are from gondolin. Burden cannot be met with Lotr. This is hugely damaging to your argument.

See, I get where you're saying that you can't use LotR to prove that they are from Gondolin, but I also frankly don't see how anything in LotR says anything to the contrary either, leaving us with the Hobbit. Which says that they do.

# ¿ Feb 8, 2019 20:02

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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