Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Data Graham posted:

There are a few "from the villain's perspective" works about Middle-earth, aren't there? Lord knows there are enough Grendel books.

I like Sauron's Blog, even if it's incomplete.

http://www.sauronsblog.com/?page_id=29

# ¿ Jul 7, 2013 19:55

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# ¿ May 5, 2024 10:19

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Catsplosion posted:

This. A thousand times this.

Trying to speculate and guess what Tolkien had meant by certain stories in his text and where he would have gone next with his writing is what makes reading great. I'd rather the stories be left how they are than new ones made up or getting what Tolkien intended with his writing wrong and extrapolating from there.

No, that's what happens when you sell out and care more about the money than the story. (Unless the money is the only reason you did it to begin with)

The problem with fan-fiction is that if a piece of writing by a fan becomes extremely popular it can often get taken as canon or people assume that because the fan did proper research and fleshed out existing writing then this is what the original author would have intended.

Fan-fiction revolving around new characters in the universe (Who play no real part in the events of the main storylines) are great. They don't affect the original prose and are often a great read if you are looking for something loosely based around a universe you enjoy reading about.

What about licensed fiction written for the Middle-Earth RPG? I've heard it assumed among some, like video game modders, that their names for the Nazgul sound cool and do not contradict Tolkien, so they should be accepted as the standard.

Ad�naphel the Quiet :ssh:

Akh�rahil the Blind Sorceror! :black101:

# ¿ Jan 10, 2014 19:09

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

I want more news about the LOTR TV series.

Last news I heard was Morfyyd Clark was cast as Galadriel, according to Variety. As far as I can see, she's the only cast member for whom we have a hint of their role.

I've never heard of her before, but put her in a blonde wig, and she'd certainly look like Galadriel.

Alas, IMDB says she's only 5'3". Nerwen she ain't.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2020 00:55

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

webmeister posted:

I think if there's one thing we learned from the original films it's that actor height and screen height are two vastly different things. It still blows my mind that John Rhys-Davies was the tallest castmember of the Fellowship

Oh yeah, like the entire career of Tom Cruise.

I recommend everyone read Numenor movie treatment some Norwegian guy wrote. Hopefully the TV show takes some ideas from it. It's full of clever ideas.

https://folk.uib.no/hnohf/num-intro.htm

# ¿ Jul 29, 2020 01:34

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Shibawanko posted:

i want to see this so much

Hmm... The current TV show takes place in the Second Age, though. So if he wants a role now, which Second Age character would he be best for?

Gil-Galad? Ar-Pharazon?

# ¿ Aug 3, 2020 23:26

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

euphronius posted:

Also elves can be evil

Even if you're one of those weirdos who claims #FeanorDidNothingWrong, the actions of Eöl and Maeglin are pretty sound evidence that elves have free will and the ability to choose between good and evil.

Speaking more generally about the problem of evil in Arda, I find it interesting that Eru's statement that no theme can be played that has not its uttermost source in Him becomes literally true in the song of Lúthien before Mandos.

quote:

The song of Lúthien before Mandos was the song most fair that ever in words was woven, and the song most sorrowful that ever the world shall hear. Unchanged, imperishable, it is sung still in Valinor beyond the hearing of the world, and listening the Valar are grieved. For Lúthien wove two themes of words, of the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men, of the Two Kindreds that were made by Ilúvatar to dwell in Arda, the Kingdom of Earth amid the innumerable stars. And as she knelt before him her tears fell upon his feet like rain upon stones; and Mandos was moved to pity, who never before was so moved, nor has been since.

A beautiful song that never would have existed outside Arda Marred.

# ¿ Aug 5, 2020 19:26

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

ChubbyChecker posted:

i tried it back in the day, but didn't get it to work properly

just watched a video of someone playing it. their winning strategy was to let the nazguls kill the hobbits, let them carry the ring quickly across the misty mountains, and ambush the ring bearing nazgul with eomer and his cavalry. after that enter mordor from the east, wait until the mount doom is emptied from troops and then drop the ring in

Hahaha. Gandalf is kicking himself that he didn't think of this.

# ¿ Aug 17, 2020 21:11

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Runcible Cat posted:

I dearly love Cor Blok's interpretation of the first meeting with Strider too. Hats!

The Babadook meets a Hasidic Jew.

# ¿ Aug 20, 2020 20:17

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Southpaugh posted:

Gurthang rules. Evil swords in general rule but Gurthang has this nihilistic malevolence to it that makes it stand out.

Tolkiens "things that don't normally speak but sometimes get a few lines" like Gurthang or huon loving rule.

quote:

Then for the second time Huan spoke with words; and he counselled Beren, saying: 'From the shadow of death you can no longer save Lúthien, for by her love she is now subject to it. You can turn from your fate and lead her into exile, seeking peace in vain while your life lasts. But if you will not deny your doom, then either Lúthien, being forsaken, must assuredly die alone, or she must with you challenge the fate that lies before you--hopeless, yet not certain. Further counsel I cannot give, nor may I go further on your road. But my heart forebodes that what you find at the Gate I shall myself see. All else is dark to me; yet it may be that our three paths lead back to Doriath, and we may meet before the end.'

Huan is the most well-spoken and thoughtful character in the whole story.

# ¿ Sep 1, 2020 18:11

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Ginette Reno posted:

I would assume Sauron could take shape faster if he had the ring available as well. Without it, I'd assume his return is a lot more gradual (though still inevitable).

I just wondered: did Sauron bring the Ring to Numenor?

All this time, I've assumed he did, partially because it's difficult to imagine him leaving it behind for decades at a time and also because this great film treatment assumes the Ring was useful as a focus for his natural powers of persuasion.

But if Sauron did bring the Ring to Numenor, that raises the question of how he got it back after the island was destroyed with him on it.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2020 22:30

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

skasion posted:

He did bring it to Numenor (none of the Numenoreans, apparently not even the Faithful, had been told about the rings by the elves, for elves are assholes) and brought it back by hand-waving powers/spirit juju.

Thanks. I'm imagining a whiff of black smoke curled around the Ring flying off.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2020 22:50

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Tree Bucket posted:

Is that the one where Aragorn and Boromir get folded into one character and there is no Rohan?

Now I have to read this.

I guess this is the Jodorowsky's Dune of LOTR?

Edit: "Among other things, Frodo and Galadriel have sex, the Witch-king rides a horse whose "live, raw, bleeding flesh is exposed" in lieu of a flying fell beast, and Aragorn uses both shards of Narsil with the hilt-less half having a makeshift leather handle (before they are reattached)."

Oh man, one account says he wanted the Beatles to play the main Hobbits, with Paul McCartney as Frodo. I think I heard of that fact before.

William Bear fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Sep 13, 2020

# ¿ Sep 13, 2020 03:04

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

John Boorman's LOTR script is here for those who are curious.

https://www.reddit.com/r/lotr/comments/fecmix/john_boormans_infamous_the_lord_of_the_rings/

So far from what I've read, Elrond has a palace made of crystal and Arwen is a 13 year old girl.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2020 03:44

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Runcible Cat posted:

I utterly love the idea of the backstory being done via elf kabuki theatre. WHY WERE WE DEPRIVED OF THIS.

That was my favorite change, too. I also admired the strange elegance of merging the roles of Saruman and the Mouth of Sauron, which almost works!

I also liked that Elrond had Gimli standing over Frodo with an axe, ready to amputate his morgul-wounded arm, just in case they can't remove the fragment in time.

In the Boorman script, the reason Denethor goes insane is that Pippin (his jester) tells him that Boromir failed to seduce Galadriel and she had sex with Frodo instead.

# ¿ Sep 13, 2020 17:09

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

skasion posted:

Arvedui tried to become king of Gondor in the 1940s by sending them a nice letter about how as the elder house, the line of Isildur had every right to the throne under Numenorean law and so on and so forth. The Gondorians left him on read and crowned a cadet branch instead. It’s in the big decline and fall of Gondor section in Appendix A

I recently stumbled on Meneldil's page in the Encyclopedia of Arda and I found it in oddly amusing how flustered the author got toward the end.

"This guy stole Gondor! Why doesn't anyone make a bigger deal of this?!" :rant:

William Bear fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Sep 14, 2020

# ¿ Sep 14, 2020 20:53

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Runcible Cat posted:

Another question for the loremasters: when Aragorn and co first find the bodies of Isengard orcs they're looking at their S-rune insignia and Aragorn remarks that Sauron doesn't "use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken".

Is there any more on this anywhere? Or was it just a quick literary bodge to say no no definitely not S for Sauron? Is Sauron even his "right name" considering he's previously gone by Thu and Gorthaur? What's he got against it?

The Encyclopedia of Arda tries to explain this.

quote:

In The Black Gate Opens, the Mouth of Sauron hails the Captains of the West with an introduction: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron'. This is somewhat problematic, because earlier in The Lord of the Rings, Aragorn says of Sauron that 'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken...' (The Two Towers III 1, The Departure of Boromir). The Mouth of Sauron, though, uses the name several times without apparent embarrassment.

All the evidence suggests that Aragorn is simply wrong. Not only does the Mouth of Sauron use his Lord's 'right name' freely, but so does the messenger sent to Dáin in Erebor. Indeed, we hear about Dáin's messenger at the Council of Elrond, at which Aragorn was present: he must have been - to use Gandalf's word - 'inattentive' on this point.

One possible reason for Aragorn's error is that his information is out of date. For most of the Third Age, Sauron had been building his strength, in secret, at Dol Guldur. Given his need to remain hidden, it's natural that he would ban his servants from using his real name. Any detailed information that Aragorn had about him and his ways would date back to Gandalf's spying expeditions in this period.

The Tale of Years entry for the year III 2951 states 'Sauron declares himself openly...' At this point, about seventy years before the War of the Ring, Sauron no longer felt any need for secrecy, and so presumably permitted his name to be used from that point on. Aragorn, of course, would have had no way of knowing about this change, which would explain his mistake.

Did Tolkien intend all this? Probably not - it seems much more likely that Aragorn's words were a casual slip of the author's pen. The explanation given here, though, does make a certain amount of sense within the context of the story.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/m/mouthofsauron.html

Further complicating this is the fact that, as was mentioned above, Sauron's "right name" was Mairon, though it does make sense for a mouthpiece to introduce himself by his master's most well-known name. I believe, though I'm not sure, that no other servant of Sauron uses the name Sauron, they call him epithets like The Eye, The Master, The Biggest, etc.

So two solutions present themselves: either the EoA is correct above, and Aragorn's information is just out of date; or the Mouth and other spokespeople for Sauron have special permission to speak the name.

# ¿ Sep 21, 2020 16:23

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Everyone shut up about racism, we have an emergency on our hands.

https://twitter.com/ComicBook/status/1313492127490494464?s=19

quote:

Amazon may be adding some unexpected nudity to Middle-earth in its upcoming Lord of the Rings television series. The massive project resumed filming in New Zealand in September after a pandemic-induced halt. Now a casting call has gone out for various actors, including those "comfortable with nudity." The casting call from the BGT talent agency caught the eye of Lord of the Rings fansite TheOneRing.net. It reads, "Comfortable with Nudity? Up to $500 per day. Use reference NUDE. We need Nude people based in Auckland - age 18 plus, all shapes and sizes (Intimacy guidelines will always be followed on set)." The production also has an intimacy coordinator on its team, suggesting the series could include sex scenes.

As expected, nerds are panicking.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2020 19:34

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

SHISHKABOB posted:

I bet it's an orgy in Numenor.

My favorite line from the nerd rant on theonering.net:

quote:

We surely don�t know who�s involved in scenes of nudity/sexuality. Debate is now open on where that would be necessary in a grand story of N�menor or the Elven-smiths of Eregion, or the welcoming halls of Khazad-d�m in its pre-Balrog glory.

We do know they are using water tanks. A stunt performer was injured filming scenes underwater (and she has thankfully recovered). Possible connection to N�menor being flooded and ruined in a specific catastrophe? Yes, quite possible. Underwater scenes depicting naked people swimming? We just don�t know.

How about we combine the two? "Numenor is sinking! Everyone start loving!"

# ¿ Oct 6, 2020 19:41

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

WoodrowSkillson posted:

There's a show in 2020 having a s-s-s-s-s-sex scene scoob!

We're not prudes, we're just remarking how, unless handled with extreme care, such a scene would be incongruous with the tone of the whole setting, and make LOTR on Amazon a blatant Witcher/Game of Thrones wannabe. Another great quote from theonering:

quote:

There are a few notable instances of non-sexual nudity mentioned in The Lord of the Rings itself: (a) the hobbits� bath in Crickhollow, (b) the running naked through the grass to clear their hearts and minds after imprisonment by the Barrow Wights, (c) Frodo�s rescue by Sam at the Tower of Cirith Ungol.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2020 19:50

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Drakyn posted:

Sauron's dick and balls will be of unseemly size, symbolically flaunting both his self-importance and covetous desire for the material world. You'll be able to tell the heroes by their tiny and refined genitals, which represent their cool rationality and civilized nature in accordance with the noble ideals of the ancient greeks.

This checks out. From Tolkien's letter #246:

quote:

Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.

# ¿ Oct 6, 2020 19:55

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

I'm so glad this excerpt from the audiobook is on YouTube.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ST_jDZzb0Xo

# ¿ Oct 8, 2020 21:20

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Arcsquad12 posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKHOrLqVn-o

You want to talk about perfect voices?

Holy poo poo I had no idea this existed. Thank you, and RIP Christopher Lee.

# ¿ Oct 8, 2020 21:46

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

I was idly skimming "The Philosophy of Tolkien" by Peter Kreeft today. It was an ok overview of Tolkien's worldview from a Catholic perspective. It did have this amusing paragraph:

quote:

And his philosophy could not possibly be excluded from his life’s work. Like religion, sex, age, and race, philosophy permeates everything we do. A Hindu would have written a very different Lord of the Rings than a Catholic. A woman would have written a different Lord of the Rings than a man. A teenager would have written a different Lord of the Rings than an adult. An Italian would have written a very different Lord of the Rings than an Englishman. And it is equally certain that a Marxist, a Cartesian rationalist, a Hegelian Idealist, a Nietzschean nihilist, or (God help us!) a Derridadaist deconstructionist would have written a very different Lord of the Rings than Tolkien did.

This part is great, but now I'm sad that LOTR by Nietzsche doesn't exist. I want to read it.

William Bear fucked around with this message at 00:31 on Oct 20, 2020

# ¿ Oct 20, 2020 00:29

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

The show is supposed to be set in the second age, so that's clearly a flashback. Maybe setting up Galadriel's backstory, since we know she's a character in the show (that may be her we're seeing from behind).

It looks good. I certainly never would have dreamed before today that we would ever see live action Tirion upon Túna in Valinor in the light of the Trees.

William Bear fucked around with this message at 00:26 on Aug 3, 2021

# ¿ Aug 2, 2021 23:53

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

euphronius posted:

What if the hideous monsters were …. Gorgeous women ??

Reminds me of how the 1999 Beowulf movie and the 2007 Beowulf movie both had Grendel's mother be a sexy naked woman. Grendel himself was still a monster.

William Bear fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Aug 4, 2021

# ¿ Aug 4, 2021 00:02

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

skasion posted:

Also the Hindu Kush and Gobi Desert, in the draft, but I guess that was too silly even for Hobbit-era JRRT

In the published Hobbit, Bilbo offers to go "to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert."

In the first draft, it was "to [cancelled: Hindu Kush] the Great Desert of Gobi and fight the Wild Wire worm(s) of the Chinese."

:can:

# ¿ Sep 11, 2021 07:50

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Data Graham posted:

The bigger fundamental change the article points at is that they're compressing all the events of the Second Age so they're all happening at once, instead of over the course of like 2000 years. Which is kind of what we all always knew they'd have to do in any adaptation of the Silmarillion or the Appendices, it's just sort of the nature of a TV show.

That makes sense. As they mention in the article, a straight adaptation of the timeline would have you jumping ahead hundreds of years at a time, then having to introduce a whole new set of mortal characters.

I guess the alternative way to do it is to keep to Tolkien's chronology, and tell the story from the human characters' perspectives. Have the events that the happened at the end of the 2nd age in order, but interspersed with flashbacks from the elven supporting cast.

The way the show decided is probably more narratively satisfying, even if the implication of the show that nothing interesting happened outside the last hundred years of the 2nd age is silly.

# ¿ Feb 10, 2022 15:36

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

I liked Elrond wearing gull wings on his shoulders. He loves his momma. :3:

The trailer doesn't tell much about the plot, as I might have expected, but everything looks much better in motion than in publicity stills. Meneltarma, Helcaraxe, and Gil-Galad look great.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2022 04:29

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Mahoning posted:

Another article has been posted by Vanity Fair and it reveals a lot more info.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2022/02/10-burning-questions-about-amazons-the-rings-of-power

Howard Shore is back!

That teaser poster featuring a sword with the sunburst on the hilt is Narsil

John Howe is working on the show

Also, their rights include everything in the LOTR books and the Hobbit, including appendices. But they can feature characters like say Gil-Galad simply from the song in…..is it Fellowship?

It sounds like they have the right ideas.

I don't like the Narsil design, though. I liked how Peter Jackson made sure it looked a bit dwarfey, especially around the pommel.

# ¿ Feb 15, 2022 00:37

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Mahoning posted:

How could this not make you happy? It’s the most Tolkien thing ever.

Highbrow dialogue: "my AXE is LODGED in HIS nerVOUS sysTEM!"

# ¿ Feb 15, 2022 04:19

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Hiro Protagonist posted:

In response to the Amazon backlash, I've seen some people go through internet archives and find reactions to the initial Fellowship of the Ring trailer. They were not particularly kind. Tolkien fans never change.

This is great. I love the posters who complained that Cate Blanchett is too ugly to be Galadriel

quote:

Doesn't Celborn look like an a number one WUSS!! Why couldn't they have picked someone with a little more presence.

This is a fair point, though.

# ¿ Feb 16, 2022 23:20

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

New trailer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewgCqJDI_Nk

The Oath of Feanor at 2:01? :eyepop:

Also, they released a photoshoot of the Numenorean cast yesterday.

https://twitter.com/LOTRonPrime/status/1547412542154162176

From left to right, they are named as Pharazon's son Kemen, Queen Miriel, Pharazon, Elendil, and Elendil's children Earien and Isildur.

Entertainment Weekly helpfully adds that Anarion exists in the show, but is off screen. I guess that's good. I was afraid he'd been replaced.

William Bear fucked around with this message at 14:21 on Jul 14, 2022

# ¿ Jul 14, 2022 14:14

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Is Sauron hot

Daniel Weyman is credited as "The Stranger".

# ¿ Jul 14, 2022 15:47

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

Pham Nuwen posted:

Pharazon looks like if Jack Black got into stage magic instead of music.

It's not ideal for me, either, and I'm feeling pretty good about the show. I think that would be a fine look for the older King Pharazon, but when we meet him, he should look like a bold, vigorous middle-aged man. Maybe with shorter hair and beard (I know there are dorks on Twitter ranting about how Tolkien said descendents of Elros don't have facial hair, but I don't care as much).

Also, why is his son's name "Kemen"? That's Quenya. Either they're hinting at some backstory of a Faithful ex-wife, or his kid should be named something Adunaic.

I care a lot because Pharazon is one of my favorite Tolkien characters.

# ¿ Jul 14, 2022 16:58

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

A new LOTR video game just got announced, but we don't know much about it other than its existence.

quote:

...

“It’s a privilege to create a new game set in Middle-earth, especially one that’s so different from what fans have played previously,” said Amie Wolken, Head of Interactive at Wētā Workshop. “As fans ourselves, we’re excited for gamers to explore Middle-earth in a way they never have before, and introduce new fans to the magic of The Lord of the Rings.”

This title is in early development and does not yet have an announced release date. It is expected to launch during Take-Two’s Fiscal Year 2024. Private Division and Wētā Workshop look forward to sharing more details about this game in the future.

https://www.privatedivision.com/2022/08/15/private-division-announces-publishing-partnership-with-weta-workshop/

# ¿ Aug 15, 2022 15:36

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# ¿ May 5, 2024 10:19

William Bear: Oct 26, 2012; "That's what they all say!"

keep punching joe posted:

Dwarf Fortress but with Dwarves.

That's actually coming next year!

https://www.pcgamer.com/co-op-survival-crafting-comes-to-middle-earth-in-lord-of-the-rings-return-to-moria/

# ¿ Aug 15, 2022 16:25

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way