Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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Data Graham posted:

One more complicating thing to note on the Frodo/Sam master/servant dynamic is that, to my recollection, Frodo never ordered Sam to do anything (aside from the highly dramatic moment of telling him to go home). In fact I can hardly think of him even asking a favor in a "be a good fellow and" kind of way.

By the time they reach Bree it's pretty clear that Sam is in it for the duration and is committed to Frodo personally, even if their relationship is rooted in a long-term master/servant relationship. Frodo doesn't seem to be an rear end in a top hat so he's not telling Sam to do all the poo poo-work (although I imagine Sam did do more than his share). It would have been rather telling to Gandalf or Aragorn if Frodo DID start cursing out Sam and ordering him around, wouldn't it?

# ¿ Dec 19, 2014 23:36

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 18:22

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RoboChrist 9000 posted:

So I'm fairly familiar with LotR and the Hobbit, but I've just never been able to stomach the style of the Silmarillion, although I am fairly familiar with some of the stories, or at least the broad strokes therein.

So what's all this about, then, that I have heard of there having been like literal APCs and missiled and ironclad battleships at Numenor and/or the Fall of Gondolin. If Sauron had these, then, why isn't he busting them out during the Ringwar or the Battle of the Last Alliance?

Sauron probably had some kind of magical-ish stuff that was basically bombs and the Numenoreans were incredibly good at naval warfare (if without gunpowder; they clearly had no problem with long sea voyages). That's about as far as it goes.

If you want a fan origin for the Arkenstone: Perhaps it was an effort to make something like the Silmaril they put in the dwarven necklace and then tried to keep, and to some extent they succeeded?

pixelbaron posted:

He probably read an excerpt from the Book of Lost Tales II which had some early drafts of the Fall of Gondolin, he did write mechanized warfare in there at one point:

But all of that was eventually removed.

Yeah most of that stuff sounds like "dragons"

# ¿ Dec 20, 2014 22:08

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Josef K. Sourdust posted:

^ Yes, of course. I forgot about Gandalf's famous fireworks....

E: Did the dwarves of Moria also have explosives. All that stuff about delving too deeply and unearthing the Balrog etc - did some of that come about through gunpowder or just greed?

I presume they just mined like dwarves mined, though I guess inferring some kind of advanced diggology to explain those huge-rear end hauls and undermountain kingdoms makes sense. Then again, maybe dwarves are just really good at digging and breaking up rock.

# ¿ Dec 21, 2014 20:51

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Bongo Bill posted:

Things in Tolkien are called "magic" because humans don't know how to do them. Elves and, to a lesser extent, dwarves don't distinguish between magic and nonmagic things.

Yeah, Galadriel calls this out explicitly. I suppose the dwarves must have at least some basic knowledge of gunpowder if they made all those fireworks... still, it's been used for fireworks much longer than it was used as gunnery fodder.

# ¿ Dec 22, 2014 05:56

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Effectronica posted:

There are indications post-Book of Lost Tales that seem to reference Numenor having rockets and ironclads, mostly in Unfinished Tales and early Akallabeth drafts if I recall correctly. However, it's worth noting that the parts of Middle-Earth we see are post-apocalyptic three or four times over. There are no large-scale mining operations to get high-quality iron and coal for steam engines. There are, generously, six cities total in an area at least the size of Europe, and large tracts of land are either uninhabited or sparsely inhabited. Far to the east and south, there may well be urbanized societies, but there are none within immediate reach. Even though Sauron can probably build high-tech equipment, he doesn't have the infrastructure to expand it outside of what's in Barad-dur and possibly Minas Ithil. That said, he and Saruman do have capabilities that are well beyond any Late Antiquity/Early Middle Ages polity could achieve historically, so they almost certainly have some industry going on. Of course, Tolkien viewed industry fairly negatively.

I think Gondor was somewhat more thickly inhabited than most of the places the Fellowship wandered through - obviously they were trying to steer clear of areas with a lot of people. The area around the Lonely Mountain didn't seem completely empty, anyway.

Basically most of the stories take place in a scenic rustic backwater whose only real remarkable trait was having some residual Noldor I guess. There is the question why Sauron didn't just completely ignore Gondor, but I guess he was stuck with his tower where it was, and besides which he probably wanted to kill him some elves and Numenorians. Also his ring of course.

# ¿ Jan 5, 2015 23:20

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bartlebyshop posted:

Sauron gets lots of slave tributes from his allies and vassals that he uses to work the fields near Nurn to feed his army.

I think you mean "rational reallocation of labor resources to further the universal long term ambitions for a materialistic, non-superstitionalist mutual cooperative regime for the benefit of all intelligent beings in Middle-Earth. Except Elves."

# ¿ Jan 6, 2015 06:08

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Hieronymous Alloy posted:

It's taking me a lot longer than I thought it would; if you pay attention to Tolkien's prose it's surprisingly dense, much moreso than any other fantasy out there, with the possible exception of a few authors like Gene Wolfe. It's a strange experience. You really can't read the same book twice.

I got a copy of that 'Author of the Century' book about how Tolkien was a really dense writer, and was not actually just throwing around all that old-timey stuff randomly like an idiot. You may not like what he was doing, but he was doing it deliberately. There's even an example of how, when asked, he would render Theoden's talk to Gandalf in modern English, so he clearly knew what he was doing.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2015 22:02

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papasyhotcakes posted:

And well , how does he rend it?

"Gandalf, my dear fellow, you don't know your own skill as a doctor. I feel better than I have in years. Soon --" And then Tolkien trailed off, noting that it was difficult to think of an appropriate way for a 'modern' speaker to describe calling his host together, just because that doesn't happen so much nowadays.

He also talks about how the characters who speak in the most 'modern' ways are probably Smaug and Saruman.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2015 22:29

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Runcible Cat posted:

One generation - Aragorn's directly descended from Elros, Elrond's twin.

And when Bilbo sings his Earendil song in Rivendell he's singing about Elrond's dad, which I can't help but see as a fair bit of cheek.

Yeah, Strider calls that out, it's one of those things that I only got much later on.

Galadriel probably should've been queen, I guess, but queen over what? There were like three city-states of Noldor left and they were clearly in decline. It might have just picked a fight with Thranduil that nobody was interested in. It is funny to think that even that line ends up in Aragorn's family though.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2015 23:38

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SirPhoebos posted:

Between title-blobbing and inbreeding Aragorn is more like the Hapsburgs than any English monarch

Weren't there like thirty generations between Aragorn and his common ancestor with Arwen? I mean at a certain point we're all each other's 19th cousin or something.

# ¿ Jan 6, 2015 23:45

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BatteredFeltFedora posted:

I know I've pointed this out before, but Galadriel's father Finarfin didn't come to Middle-Earth after the Kinslaying - he turned back and became king of the Noldor who stayed in Aman. Her uncle Fingolfin is the one who challenged Morgoth to single combat and wounded him seven times before being flattened.

EDIT: Her oldest brother Finrod Felagund was killed by a werewolf in Sauron's dungeon during Beren's Quest for the Silmaril. Her other two older brothers were killed at the Dagor Bragollach.

It sounds like if Sauron hadn't put his mojo in the Ring, Galadriel could've just gone down to Mordor and killed his rear end. (The problem being getting to him, of course.) What was she doing during the Last Alliance?

# ¿ Jan 7, 2015 00:53

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Effectronica posted:

Late writings indicate that Galadriel was essentially Feanor's equal (worse in the arts and trades, better at fighting and lore)

Can you elaborate on that? She's a fascinating character. (Like where does this come from, I'm guessing there is stuff in the Giant Tomes of Elf-Lore, royalties to Chris Tolkien)

# ¿ Jan 7, 2015 06:09

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VanSandman posted:

I love the idea that Galadriel gave to Gimli, who asked humbly, what she would not give to Feanor, her rightful king.

Well, does the king have a right to ask for creepy little trophies of you? Some would say yes but I think the idea there is 'no he does not,' which is probably about what ancient Norse would have said too.

It's kind of a recapitulation of that bit from the Silmarillion really. Feanor (who was at least listening to Morgoth at times) makes a demand because he wants it and gets declined, while Gimli (created, at great remove, from Aule) makes the same request with a humble heart and love for beauty alone, and gets what he asked for and more. It kind of puts an end to all that Elf/Dwarf rage too; after that, isn't the only sign of elf/dwarf tension Gimli and Legolas bickering like a married couple?

e: Oh, apparently Galadriel's hair may have inspired Feanor to make the silmarils. Oopsie!

Nessus fucked around with this message at 19:29 on Jan 7, 2015

# ¿ Jan 7, 2015 19:07

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Levitate posted:

There wasn't really a ton of dwarf/elf angst for the most part...they were just like "it's been a long time since we were allies and the dwarfs awoke the balrog so we're kinda miffed at them for that"

I think people's perceptions about dwarf and elf relations, at least in lotr, are a bit colored by the movie where they played it up a ton. Gimli and legolas never argued about who should take the ring or about trusting one another etc.

I think it's heavily magnified from D&D and that argument in the council of elrond, mostly.

# ¿ Jan 8, 2015 04:11

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Kemper Boyd posted:

This might be of interest to the thread: http://historytoday.com/lynn-forest-hill/inspiration-tolkiens-ring

As a side note, I've been seeing a lot of "Middle-Earth is post-apocalyptic" type stuff recently. Wonder where that idea cropped up from, since it's pretty obvious that it really isn't intended to be one.

There was also this huge plague that had come a while before the events of the novels which was part of why there was so much goddamn barren wasteland for people to traipse through. Presumably Sauron was trying to thin the ranks he was facing.

I don't think Tolkien intended post-apocalyptica as we use the term nowadays. People aren't being the road warrior, but in fifty or a hundred years they wouldn't be doing that here either, they'd probably be living like the Amish or other agricultural sorts. Or like hobbits, if you will. I'd say the broader theme of 'a beautiful thing was destroyed' with the subsidiary theme of 'but something new grows' is entirely consonant with post-apocalyptic stuff.

# ¿ Jan 9, 2015 00:22

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BatteredFeltFedora posted:

There's no reason why a trope about the downfall of civilization has to refer only to 21st century western civilization.

Yeah, the themes aren't necessarily connected to the tropes of 80s movies and video games inspired by those same movies.

# ¿ Jan 9, 2015 02:39

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End Of Worlds posted:

Does anyone have that post from a million years ago that examine how Tolkien wrote battle scenes and how that related to the way that war was depicted in film and culture something? The Black Company was mentioned. Someone has to know what I'm talking about.

Use the shiny new search function! I think there was conversation about how it was ironic that Tolkien got shat on for 'unrealistic battles, lacking the real veteran's experience' or some crap when he spent three months at the Somme.

# ¿ Jan 9, 2015 07:22

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A lot of LOTR is also deliberately steering clear of places of habitation I imagine. If they'd gone along the coast of Gondor they'd probably have found many more people (who would have likely either ratted them out to Sauron or take the Ring to Denethor)

I assume there were Dunedain settlements here and there, and the Shire and Bree were not exactly empty.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2015 01:48

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Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Oh, another thing I hadn't noticed before:

When they get to Buckland and all have baths. There are only three bathtubs. No bath for Sam. Merry, Pippin, and Frodo get a happy bath with happy bath song. Sam doesn't. Because he's a servant.

I don't have the book to hand but I thought Pippin and Merry shared a tub or something. I recall Sam did get to go in though he might've gone second.

# ¿ Jan 10, 2015 06:42

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I thought that scene where Saruman just sounds so reasonable and persuasive and everyone's sort of drooping and figuring now he's going to go plot with Gandalf and maybe Aragorn and they'll all just sit tight until they get instructions was quite on point. It reminded me of the discouragement people feel nowadays about politics, though unfortunately we are short on Gandalfs to dispel things.

# ¿ Jan 12, 2015 00:03

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John Yossarian posted:

I hope this question hasn't been asked before, I read the entire thread looking for an answer. What's the deal with the blue wizards? I looked on Wikipedia and it pretty much said the blue wizards travelled east to fight Sauron's army. Did Tolkien write any footnotes or comments on these wizards? I find it weird that he would mention five wizards, yet he only talked about Saruman and Gandalf.

Saruman, Gandalf, AND RADAGAST...

I think the two blue wizards went into the distant east and did... something outside of the scope of the LOTR narrative. One theory is that they failed and became mystery cult lords, like Saruman became a mechanization maniac, who later left the seeds of future religions, or else that they kept Sauron from accumulating vast armies in at least that area.

I read something once about the consideration on whether all the other wizards "fell" like Saruman or just "failed." Radagast got discussed; if he did 'fall' it was probably less bad than Saruman since he just got distracted/high rather than actively turning to evil.

# ¿ Jan 15, 2015 00:08

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Spoilers Below posted:

Because Sam doesn't want it.

That's what I've thought, anyways. Out of all the various people in the book, every-loving-body Frodo meets wants the Ring for themselves, or is at least tempted very strongly. Gandalf, Gollum, Galadriel, Boromir... Even Frodo himself wants to keep the thing, in the end. But not Sam. He just wanted to meet some Elves, throw the thing into the volcano, and go home.

Well, he feels the temptation, but for him it doesn't latch in. I imagine if Frodo hadn't been holding onto it for like twelve years at that point he would've been in a similar situation.

# ¿ Jan 15, 2015 05:55

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SirPhoebos posted:

This is probably my dumbest question (or series of questions) thus far, but in Shadows of the Past, Gandalf says that an alternative way of destroying a Great Ring is to feed it to a dragon, but says that's not really an option because they're all dead and they probably couldn't digest the One Ring anyway. But what about that big dragon in the OP, which is the size of a mountain range. Could it have eaten the Ring? And does a dragon gain a Great Ring's power by eating it or does it just go right into dragon poop? And what do Rings taste like?

And in the book did Smaug notice the Ring? I remember that he had a photographic memory of his loot pile but I don't recall that detail. And the movie gives the implication that Smaug recognizes the Ring for what it is. I guess would keep that info to himself for the same reason he's tempted to let Thorin have the Arkenstone, but could a dragon try to claim the Ring (instead of eating it)?

Ancalagon was probably about as big and swole as Sauron; Sauron is uniquely nasty I think because of the whole Ring thing. Otherwise he could have probably just been killed by Isildur or his dad.

I don't think Smaug noticed the Ring in the book of the Hobbit. I mean, if you think about it, how could he have seen it?

# ¿ Jan 15, 2015 22:01

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Octy posted:

I'm not sure, but I like the mystery even if it is maddening. The only person I would trust to fill in the gaps is Christopher.

It all goes public domain at some point, doesn't it?

# ¿ Jan 19, 2015 06:17

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Octy posted:

I always assumed the rights would remain in the hands of the Tolkien Estate, but I'm not up on copyright law.

Well I know in America the copyright will now be eternal because of Mickey Mouse, but it seems possible that it wouldn't be the case in England, at least.

# ¿ Jan 19, 2015 07:13

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Hieronymous Alloy posted:

It's still interesting to try to come up with in-narrative explanations though. If nothing else, constant war and Sauron's maleficent influence could have played a part. Maybe the Dark Lord was magically spreading disease and supressing birth rates.

Epidemic of man/dwarf marriage.

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 19:30

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ecureuilmatrix posted:

Is it not written in some appendice that the year following the end of Sauron, crops in the Shire were bountiful and children were remarkably healthy? There might be something to the theory that growth was sauronically suppressed.

Well, 1420 SR in particular was a little unusual in that Sam had gone around to plant seedlings with Galadriel's dandruff and then threw the leftovers up into the air in the center of the Shire. That was probably not going to become the new normal (though of course the Shire was a pretty fertile land in general).

# ¿ Jan 22, 2015 23:44

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Octy posted:

Yeah, but surely 1000+ years is long enough to slowly and covertly look for it. Saruman was just lazy.

He was making trial of the halfling's leaf.

# ¿ Feb 1, 2015 03:51

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Alhazred posted:

The vikings, for example, called Africans for "blue men".

Really? That's interesting, do you have a source on that? Always up for a bit of Norse trivia here in the Tolkien thread.

# ¿ Feb 4, 2015 23:08

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SirPhoebos posted:

What is Adamant in Middle Earth? In my reread I've seen it twice: first in describing Galadriel's ring as "The Ring of Adamant" and then as a building material when Frodo sees Barad-Dur from Amon Hen. Is it a metal like mithril?

It's an alternate name for diamond. Presumably it means Galadriel's ring had a diamond in it, and it likely wasn't literal in the case of Amon Hen.

# ¿ Feb 14, 2015 20:37

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bartlebyshop posted:

Elves also lose interest in sex and having more children as they grow older which explains why they didn't completely overrun Middle Earth.

They also only knock boots in times of peace and safety and were, as I recall, really monogamous. I think like one elf couple divorced and there was one other remarriage in the entire Silmarillion elf-cycle.

# ¿ Mar 21, 2015 09:20

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euphronius posted:

Shelob was sentient and also magical. Probably would have been a dark spider form lord.

She didn't seem terribly clever or thoughtful so I figure it would've been more like Ungoliant II: Daughter of Ungoliant: This Time It's Personal

# ¿ Mar 25, 2015 18:00

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UoI posted:

Well, neither are most people.

I mean exceptionally so. She let herself be convinced of something by Gollum.

# ¿ Mar 25, 2015 21:55

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Hieronymous Alloy posted:

Like, I'm not suddenly believing in Jesus or a big imaginary skyfriend or anything, but fallen flawed world, forgive us our sins as we forgive those who trespass against us, "Inasmuch as ye have done it to one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it to me" ? All starting to creep into my worldview!

The big thing Tolkien left in me is a healthy suspicion of power and arrogance, which are pretty valuable things I'd say :v:

# ¿ Mar 26, 2015 08:56

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SirPhoebos posted:

This might be a dumb question, but how do Gandalf et al. KNOW know that they can't take command of The One Ring without turning into an evil jerk themselves? It's not like anyone other than Sauron ever uses it to its full potential.

Observed history. Whenever someone has gone lunging for leet-rear end superpowers they turned into a maniac and hosed things up. Since both Gandalf and Galadriel are immortal, I believe, they take the long view - and I don't think either of them denies that defeating Sauron and doing good work wouldn't be on their priority list. "That is where it would begin." Boromir by contrast only sees the near-term - which means he has some excellent, salient points, and that he really grows in sympathy when you re-read the books. The Ring probably WOULD save Gondor. It likely COULD, if mastered, let them defeat Sauron and his armies.

That's where it would begin.

# ¿ Mar 26, 2015 18:50

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Effectronica posted:

Because the Rohirrim have much less sense and knowledge of history than most of Middle-Earth (even random mountain orcs have collective memory of the First Age). Anything from before Eorl is somewhere between legend and myth. So what they know of the Paths of the Dead is that it killed Baldor, who was as far away from them as Elizabeth the First is to us, and that it's some serious bad poo poo that's as old as the hills.

Also they seemed to be getting intimidated by the Erech ambiance. Which considering it was full of a literal ghost army is, you know, fair.

# ¿ Apr 1, 2015 18:44

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I imagine someone else WILL write that once JRRT's work gets into the public domain... is that going to ever happen, actually, or did he publish late enough that the various laws meant to protect Mickey Mouse are also protecting Frodo and Gandalf?

# ¿ Apr 4, 2015 22:39

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Thunder Moose posted:

That sir, is some serious dedication and I tip my hat to you. While I have never heard of this story I have free time on my hands and plan to investigate - it looks promising.

"A cold douche for Tolkien fandom." Hell of a post title in the references.

Hopefully this isn't just "And then everything from those books were bad and stupid and racist, surprise!" But I may be biased by the OTHER Russian fanfic.

# ¿ Apr 6, 2015 07:05

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100YrsofAttitude posted:

It may have been discussed but what're the tangible differences between the Arkenstone and the Silmarils? I guess the former is just a really nice gem versus the stones that hold the original light of the world, but it seems somewhat implicit that the Arkenstone is somehow related or at least maybe Tolkien had the inspiration from one in the other?

You may also be getting a bit influenced by the Arkenstone's appearance in the Hobbit films. I gather it did not have an inner radiance - or at least not an explicit one like the Silmarils - in the original text. (Not that it was not an impressive jewel of course.)

# ¿ Apr 9, 2015 23:33

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 18:22

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I feel like it would work best as an opera.

# ¿ Apr 21, 2015 04:44

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > The Book Barn > Tolkien's Middle-Earth: He was just Beorn this way

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