|
Good insights. I've always heard the two year quote as well but not with the context you've both provided. That timeline is kind of nice to hear too. I'm in a new management role and it's not even been a year. I often feel like (and expectations of me) are that I should be at full speed. If the true transition time could be reasonably doubled then my self assessment is much better and maybe my seniors will have more patience than I thought.
|
#
¿
Feb 26, 2021 15:25
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 17:05 |
|
|
Lockback posted:Oh yeah, absolutely. Your first year of management is a kind of a mess and I would expect a very large difference between someone under a year and someone at 2 years. There's definitely a reckoning moment where it makes sense to know "Is this what I really want/should be doing?" and there's no shame to saying no, but it really shouldn't be a problem to say "I still feel like I'm catching up" at the year mark. Taking advantage of someone who knows what they're talking about : I moved laterally from high level IC into this role. My first time as direct manager but I spent a few years in consulting leading teams managing budget roll on roll off etc. I don't think my director or VP are doing things right. I actually question our whole culture/top - bottom leadership. Based on my experience, industry leading practices, and even my mba classes (lol I know). So I'm debating if I hang around and try to get over that 2 year bar or jet. I've also wondered if I'll make it to that point see above about me questioning their judgement.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 26, 2021 16:28
|
|
|
Thanks that was really good. I read it twice. You're probably right about my own insecurities. I don't think it's toxic culture so prob right to ride it out. Maybe by that point the things I think are wrong are better too. Previously too I had built that rep as a great IC so felt more confident in leadership roles. Stepping over this is my first impression and I think it's contributing to my anxiety. Thanks again, that was 1000$ advice
|
|
#
¿
Feb 26, 2021 17:43
|
|
|
Were you told it would be principle data scientist? I mean this might just be an HR mistake?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 8, 2021 17:30
|
|
|
Kudaros posted:I was told that, yes, though mostly our conversations involved the pay grade since I skipped one. Anywhere in writing? Or will your boss at least say it now in writing so you can chase down the update for them? I get the exhaustion but if you're going to fight for one last thing, this would be a good one.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 8, 2021 17:49
|
|
|
I posted a little early in the thread having myself a little freakout. First time manager. I did what lockback is suggesting. Team lead roles and then some project/program mgmt which was good for exposure to budget, staffing, etc. I got my shot through a bit of a winding road but core reason was because I knew a VP and he had a position where the value of a fresh thinker outweighed a known quantity. So it really is preparation plus opportunity. I have an MBA and it helped with some skills and a bit of credentialing but was not definitive. The VP who gave me the mgmt shot is openly disdainful of the degree, if that paints the picture lol. There's an mba thread that's low traffic but people usually pop up when there's activity. Idk if it's just been my experience but it has really been a lot of hussle, selling myself and taking charge of my own development just getting to this point. Which doesn't feel particularly elevated. I'm jealous of the people who seem to sort of glide up a conveyor belt of promotions.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 13, 2021 02:34
|
|
|
You're fine for a tpm job. I think you're overestimating the authority and independence those jobs usually have and budgeting is just HS level math and spreadsheet wrangling 90% of the time.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 1, 2021 13:27
|
|
|
Anime Store Adventure posted:Thanks for the tips. I think a lot of that overestimation just comes from my current job and just how long people are there before they move to TPM. Like I said, in the past few years there was definitely a trend toward not moving anyone into new positions, and as they cut down on programs, they had more people that had already held the title available for the programs left. I haven't see any TPM that hasn't been with the company at least 8-10 years longer than I have been. Agree with above, your sample set is limited. I would also not use "time in chair" as a personal metric for competence or promotion even if those around you might be. Even if you don't have crazy aspirations it's just a really limiting frame.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 1, 2021 17:21
|
|
|
I've been part of not 1 but 2 leadership programs that sort of flamed out due to externalities. Idk if they're just kind of that way or I had bad luck. So not surprised it's defunct and I'd very much deprioririze that angle. But good news is that you don't really need the program if you're someone such as yourself who seems able/willing to do this kind of legwork with reach outs and what not. So +1 to above: talk to the person, make your goals explicit and see what comes out. My only extra advice is remember it's a bit like sales: takes 30 opportunities to close 1 "deal". Look inside your company, look outside. Try to keep that pipeline full and don't limit yourself to only certain things or certain people.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 20, 2021 17:46
|
|
|
What do people think about going from a player/coach first level mgmt positions to a senior IC role in order to pivot into a more desirable flavor of your job. Assuming comp/benefits are equal. Specifically, I work in product management. There's a really wide spread in what product management does. My manager role is the type of product I'm not super thrilled about. It's not the worst but it's not world beating. We're sales driven, PMs are more often project managers or tactical implementers vs problem solvers. We work on a brittle legacy monolith with 2 releases a year and month long regressions. You get the picture. I'm contemplating pursuing a change back to IC in a more product-led, flatter modern tech culture. I don't see many people lateraling at mgmt levels and I don't want to get stuck. It also seems that my org level and autonomy might be comparable because these other companies have fewer levels and the way the role is structured. I know for a lot jobs this would be supremely stupid but I'm wondering if I'm at step 1 of a midlife crisis just carrying on this path. Flip side, am I throwing away career progression chasing something sort of naive?
|
|
#
¿
Jun 11, 2021 19:33
|
|
|
Reading into it a bit: Sounds like you're also dealing with a transition into a role with greater ambiguity? That can be really hard. But if others are saying you're fine, you are probably doing ok.
|
|
#
¿
Jun 20, 2021 03:02
|
|
|
25-30 years is still a while. Even modest returns pay off with compounding and that timeline. That's if you're also going to put effort into making the degree worthwhile by pursuing opportunity. If you graduate and just keep chilling where you're at for 15 years...
|
|
#
¿
Jul 2, 2021 21:43
|
|
|
You've got the more important part, in demand skills. A degree won't guarantee more money but it raises your ceiling and lowers your risk. Generally education still strongly, strongly correlates with $ and job quality. Like the above: it's also material what kind of degree you're talking about. You do something in STEM or say statistics then you could combine your skills + degree and you could get into a different type of pay ladder.
|
|
#
¿
Jul 2, 2021 22:22
|
|
|
<x> analyst with x being almost anything. Marketing, HR, data, operations. There's free versions of a lot of tools too. So you could do some little portfolio projects. Analyze the titanic guest list, fantasy football, whatever you like. Nice way to offset the gpa and stand out a little. Edit: also work the student angle to network. Low pressure "I'm a student and thinking about a career in your field" stuff gets more hits than you would think. Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Sep 8, 2021 |
|
#
¿
Sep 8, 2021 23:06
|
|
|
The nice thing is that if you use your interest in game design to learn transferable skills, hard and soft, then you've got a leg up even if you change your mind later. So, go for it and have fun! Buddy of mine did this path and realized he didn't like the lifestyle but fortunately he was a great software engineer and pivoted to more normal corporate stuff. Another guy I know designs phone RPGs as a hobby from his consulting job.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 9, 2021 14:45
|
|
|
Re: making stuff Just do what you can do. Pretty much every successful creator says the path is making garbage that is less garbage each time until you get to something good. Nirvikalpa posted:What would being a "whiz" at those things entail? Do companies want to see a portfolio or do a technical interview before hiring? There's some data analyst courses out there. Coursera and what not. Even if you don't want to do the class, the syllabuses help figure out what to know. Tbh most jobs like that actually have a much lower bar than all the stuff you -could- learn. Often, advanced knowledge is more the difference between 50 hour weeks and 20 hours versus qualifying for the job.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 9, 2021 19:46
|
|
|
Let me ask: If you've been working with product managers at your company, is there an option 3 where you jump to PM internally? Because that might actually be the fastest and most assured path. Second question: Sometimes program manager is a path to product manager and sometimes it is not. Do you know if people commonly make that move in the company any division your joining? Related to above: if you have product connections right now, don't jump and realize you're actually further away.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 20, 2021 14:10
|
|
|
If you have a biz undergrad and mba you've got the training to be a business analyst as you described it. Maybe what you want is a BA career path where you are encouraged to improve those skills + more critical thinking and advising as you mature? Which points to consulting like someone above said. If you are willing/able to grind for a little while. But your last point is really the heart of the matter. You're never going to feel comfortable. Hell, to some degree that feeling is right even. Same for full or even majority control over outcomes.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 29, 2021 19:19
|
|
|
Re consulting: They aren't paying for your expertise. They're paying for the expertise of the principals/partners and the firm leveraged through you. So no problems there. It's not a panacea and consulting firms just adore nerotic overachievers they can ride into the ground. so soul search first and try to get a handle on the anxieties.
|
|
#
¿
Oct 29, 2021 21:50
|
|
|
That anxiety is super normal. 15 years is a long time. 2 weeks into a new job it will be fine. Same with interviewing, weird and hard at first and then gets better.
|
|
#
¿
Dec 11, 2021 03:17
|
|
|
With a staff of that size and what you described for responsibilities, 90k seems kinda low. There's no reason you can't look on the side and see what's out there. Either just grind for a few months or find efficiencies in your day. Your degree and previous expectations don't matter anymore, don't let it hold you back. You don't need an MBA and I doubt you take any kind of paycut. The risk, actually, is that you anchor on your current wage and underprice yourself.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 9, 2022 03:44
|
|
|
"Sales engineer" or "presales" might be a fit too. Basically what you described as fun: show people the product, explain why it will solve their problems. Latter part is far more important. Often, it's more about teaching and being hyped about your solution vs the more sales-y stuff which also might be a fit. People also transition between these roles and full on account executive (or whatever title) all the time, so it's not an option-limiter. Comp is still really good 100-300k depending on commission at a big SAAS co.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 26, 2022 21:44
|
|
|
It's natural to be nervous, we're all wired to be naturally more conservative so sometimes it's easier to ask yourself "what is the best alternative?" Continue in your current job that you have obviously put a lot of effort into leaving? Probably not. Continue looking for another role, ok option but how likely is it to be actually better than what is in front of you? Especially given the time lost in accruing experience.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 10, 2022 17:36
|
|
|
Yeah I'd def say your best bet is talking to your manager about working together to get you both a promotion. That's a common pattern. For the competitive aspect. I mean you could start trying to build a relationship with your boss's boss and/or other senior people and eventually make a play via a pitch or straight up relationship but that can really, really backfire. Somewhat in the middle is working with your manager and trying to find something they're not interested in but you are and then owning that. With the idea being that eventually you end up peers because your thing has legs. Less snakey because it's in the open and growing the pie.
|
|
#
¿
Feb 17, 2022 21:27
|
|
|
Most management books are crap and only useful for knowing the shiboleths necessary to fit in within a large organization. Seems like you've got that down! That said a few are decent. One I like is High Output Management. It's good because he describes specific behaviors and activities that contribute to an organization. Its pretty general purpose, some parts will fit better than others to your situation and some parts you just might not agree with. It's from 1983 so not exactly cutting edge, although I think it was sort of obscure until kind of recently and certainly doesn't feel dated. https://books.google.com/books/about/High_Output_Management.html?id=HersAAAAMAAJ&source=kp_book_description Edit: I like Rao's stuff https://studio.ribbonfarm.com/p/unbundling-the-manager?utm_source=url I haven't read radical candor but might now. Wonder if anyone else in the thread has an opinion on it? Xguard86 fucked around with this message at 04:59 on Feb 23, 2022 |
|
#
¿
Feb 23, 2022 04:51
|
|
|
Resume formating can be a 10x difference. Sorta hosed up that it's that way but it is.
|
|
#
¿
Mar 10, 2022 22:54
|
|
|
blue squares posted:Not really… I was an electrician in helicopters in the Navy but I got out a decade ago. Sales is still computer time for the high comp roles but less than a lot of other jobs. Also sort of allowed to hate it culturally which might help
|
|
#
¿
Mar 14, 2022 14:07
|
|
|
ERP implementation is a circle of hell so you're not crazy burning out on that. Did you like the operation job with the weed dispensary? Because you could probably bounce to something like that pretty easily. Even if just to do something that doesn't absolutely suck while you plan the next thing. A more risky plan: Any dependents habits or debt? Because you could save as much as possible for a bit, quit and then spend some time just doing hobbies and recharging a little. I stress having something to do because the tricky part about burnout is that just resting often doesn't help past a certain time period. It's like rehabbing an injury, have to work a little in the right ways to heal. I think to make a good career pivot, you've got to stop the "bleeding" first and get your head right. You've got to decide how to do that from your own situation.
|
|
#
¿
Apr 1, 2022 03:23
|
|
|
Just apply and see what happens? No way to know without getting out there
|
|
#
¿
Apr 7, 2022 02:49
|
|
|
Probably it's how you're presenting yourself not who you are . They are unfortunately different skills. ou can post your redacted resume on SA for feedback. There's probably something like that for online dating, idk.
|
|
#
¿
May 16, 2022 17:20
|
|
|
This job sounds more like an abusive relationship.
|
|
#
¿
May 9, 2023 23:58
|
|
|
Lockback posted:I can't really say if moving to TPM is the right idea or not, but doing a TPM + running an analyst team seems like suicide, and really the kind of thing you can only fail at. Success will just be assumed. +1 If you promote someone to TPM does that make you a manager in product over there?
|
|
#
¿
Jun 6, 2023 23:12
|
|
|
Many companies encourage people to have LinkedIn. Helps them recruit prospect market etc
|
|
#
¿
Jul 19, 2023 15:51
|
|
|
Democratic Pirate posted:Some college acquaintances went into the trades and it’s worked out well. I knew guy in b u s s i n e s s s c h o o l who left a big corp finance job to run a landscaping company with a buddy. He's on step two right now, rolling up a bunch of similar co's with old boomers trying to retire. Probably going to end up the richest guy in our whole class. Especially factoring for CoL and hours he'll have to work once (if) it's all humming along.
|
|
#
¿
Aug 17, 2023 17:15
|
|
|
Ornery and Hornery posted:It’s a kind of niche thing in the public sector. I enjoy the field, but I’m basically making the max that I can expect to make UNLESS I move into management. I've never had a union to compare but basically "you'll make more money. Don't spend it because you also might be laid off". Is there any reason to not try for a pm job and see what you can get? There's too many scenarios without real offers in hand. You might consider if there's value in trying to make it to mgmt for the benefits and pensions. Then jump private with life time benefits. Even better if that title gets you somewhere as a contractor.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 15, 2023 20:11
|
|
|
Sounds like these other people have more political capital and will get the better roles. If you think you're unknown (versus actively disliked or seen as not next level material) you might stick around and build some relationships. Otherwise, look for an exit if you want to progress your career.
|
|
#
¿
Sep 21, 2023 20:24
|
|
|
If you don't have any incentives otherwise, you might as well get your staff paid as much as you possibly can because then they won't quit. It's not your P&L anyway. Middle_Mgmt.txt
|
|
#
¿
Oct 30, 2023 21:57
|
|
|
Long-term question for the thread on work location: Looking for the best strategy to change jobs when I'm willing to relocate and don't live in an area with a lot of jobs in my industry. I work in tech, PM in b2b saas at a principal/director level. When I got this role, the company paid for relocation but it was a special program out of MBA. as I look to the future I'm wondering if that is likely to happen again or if I need to consider alternative plans if I want to change jobs or get laid off. I would happily move to a lot of cities but I'm worried that the extra $$$ and difficulty to relocate puts at too much of a disadvantage against other candidates. I'm good enough at my job but not some kind of unicorn hire who could expect a special deal.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 8, 2024 16:39
|
|
|
Well that's good to hear. We wouldn't even mind paying our own relocation costs if it was somewhere we'd like to live anyway. Most of my anxiety comes from not being in a tech hub and assuming I'd have to do something like quit and move first to be a competitive applicant. I think 90% of this is how many bad stories I see about the job market right now and sweating it.
|
|
#
¿
Jan 10, 2024 21:26
|
|
|
|
| # ¿ May 14, 2024 17:05 |
|
|
96 spacejam posted:I am at a Sr. Manager/Director rung in the race and I'd either resign myself to never moving or being worked into the corporate gears to where I'm managing others. There's a lot of senior manager or director jobs that rarely travel and work about 40 hours per week. However, it sounds like you kind of enjoy the action and chaos. Any truth to that?
|
|
#
¿
Mar 12, 2024 22:29
|
|