TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future - The Something Awful Forums

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > TG As An Industry - Past, Present, Future

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Roll under systems in general are kind of counter-intuitive for most gamers.

Personally if I was going to run MC I'd drop the nat 20 rule and just use the Repercussions rating for Complications instead.

# ¿ Jul 21, 2016 21:51

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 05:53

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Leperflesh posted:

I'm not familiar with other versions of 2d20 but I read through the preview rules for Conan when I backed it.

Roll-under makes sense when the target is your character's ability/skill, and you want that number to mean "higher = better." The game mechanic also includes copious opportunity (as in, it will usually be the case with most nontrivial rolls you make) to improve your chances at the cost of some resource, but that usually means adding dice rather than changing your target to roll against. Which I also like, because it means from round to round, scene to scene, etc. you are usually rolling against the same smallish set of target numbers, all of which are printed on your own character sheet.

This to me contrasts with the D&D style of rolling, where you roll 1d20 and then have piles of modifiers that may or may not apply to that roll, and which change from round to round, and your target number is often a secret that you can gradually deduce through the scene based on which of your results fail or succeed.

The natural 20 rule in Conan is pretty loosey-goosey... there are guidelines but essentially it means a complication can happen. More importantly, it adds an additional cost to your decision to improve your odds of success by buying more dice: each additional die you buy gets you another chance at rolling more successes (so if you need, say, two successes right now, you might buy from your starting two, up to four dice by spending two tokens) but also increases the odds that you'll roll a 20 and cause a complication for the group.

I have not playtested it but I found it interesting as a mechanic I'd like to try out.

I, personally, have no issues with roll-under, I've played Alternity, GURPS, Tri-Stat 2, a couple others that were roll-under systems and I definitely prefer having static target numbers that you want to beat in a game since it speeds up play by a lot. But a lot of people I've encountered offline seem to have some sort of disconnect when presented with roll-under games and it takes them a lot longer to grok the mechanics.

2d20 is a pretty good dicepool system if for some reason you have to be rolling 20 siders, and the risk/reward systems they have in MC and Conan do put some real strategy into how you roll instead of just going for 'most pluses/dice I can get'.

# ¿ Jul 22, 2016 02:15

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

I think Zak S should be burned at the stake for the good of humanity, but the post makes a few good points.

# ¿ Jul 26, 2016 23:47

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Yeah, in further retrospect, this is a poo poo move. I'm canceling my Patreon support.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2016 00:26

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Evil Mastermind posted:

They completely are.

Okay. Look. I have a lot of loving problems with that post. I'm going to loving rant and I don't give a poo poo if anyone reads this or not but I have to get this off my loving chest.

I realize I am coming into this hot. This is not going to be coherent or (probably) right. I don't loving care.

I know that Z coming here way back in the grognards.txt days was directly because of me. It was like five+ years ago and I still feel guilty for what happened even though I know the fallout of all that poo poo (like what happened to Mikan) wasn't actually my fault. I don't like talking about him or the whole g.txt incident that happened. And I know the people who were around back then don't care and the people who weren't around back then don't know what I'm talking about.

But the problem is that I still feel guilty about it. Because I put people into a crosshairs.

I do not like talking about Z. At all. I have deliberately not gotten involved when the topic of him comes up, even though that's a race occurrence around here nowadays. And I'm well aware that Z probably doesn't remember who I am, either inside or outside the context of SA. And I've interacted with him in both contexts.

Mark says that it's not about Z or Rob, but they're the ones he called out. He says that Rob swearing at Z was endemic of the conflict between the storygame community and the OSR, but that completely ignores the context of what happened or Z's (known) history. It's a total false equivalence: Rob swearing at Z is not at all the same as how Z's treated people in the past. It's a "tolerate intolerance" bullshit argument.

Mark wants everyone to get along, which is fine, but he wants it to happen by everyone just being nice and if we all just listen and accept the other side everyone will get along. But that ignores the fact that the problem isn't the OSR; it's specific people who happen to be in the OSR.

He says it's "our" responsibility (us being "the storygame community" whatever the gently caress that means) to reach out to the OSR. But the OSR isn't the loving problem. People like Z and Pundowski are the problem. And yes, there are people who are just as problematic on the storygames side.

Read . Mark wants to extend the hand of friendship to the OSR.

But the solution to the reactions people like this generate isn't to just reach out the hand of friendship. That needs to come later. The problem isn't representation in the industry; that's a completely separate issue. The problem is the toxic people everyone just...accepts. Like it's the cost of being part of the overall gaming community.

Read the responses to the post on G+. There are people who flat-out say they were scared to reply to this because they know what'll happen when Z gets wind of this. There are people who point out what has happened to them in regards to Z. I've seen so many people, mostly women, in my G+ feed saying how scared they are about what Mark posted, and how it brings people into the attention of harassers by putting the focus of the problem in the wrong place.

The problem isn't that the people who like games like this aren't seeing eye-to-eye with the people who like game like that. That's Geek Social Fallacy #4 thinking.

The problem is the ever-present toxic element. That's not going to go away and saying "look, can't we just get along and play games?" just perpetuates it.

Mark says Rob should have apologized to Z for the post he screenshotted. Why? Rob is completely within his rights to tell someone with Z's history to gently caress off. But because Mark treats the two guys as being just as bad as the other, it completely ignores the core loving problem.

I need to go lay down.

Thanks to the internet, there's only two ways of getting rid of the toxic elements in a hobby, and the first one which is foisting them off on another fandom is not only reprehensible, it isn't working because then you get cross contamination from other bad actors.

Which means we must employ option 2, get rid of them by any means necessary.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2016 00:54

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Bongo Bill posted:

Actually, the post was about how you and that person are different.

Not unless you're a mind reader, because nothing of the sort was said.

# ¿ Jul 27, 2016 03:13

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Just going to drop this here, don't mind me...

ANY MEANS NECESSARY

# ¿ Jul 27, 2016 08:20

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Yeah a module with all the assets you would need on roll20 is a great business idea. Whether you can sell enough to make back your expenses is something we probably won't find out for a while though.

# ¿ Jul 29, 2016 20:05

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Google+ makes it really easy to build a completely insular community with no unwanted outside input.

# ¿ Aug 2, 2016 22:23

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Yeah I wouldn't mind OSR as much if it was poo poo like emulating the sheer madness of Castle Greyhawk or Mystara instead of 'boring dungeon crawl #ad nauseum'

# ¿ Aug 3, 2016 16:29

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Halloween Jack posted:

Apocalypse World and AD&D have this in common: Plenty of people have reused its rules for other games before they even finished reading them.

Oh god this. I've encountered so many groups over the years that houseruled AD&D without actually reading the entire book so they have a rule for something that was already in the drat book and actually implemented better RAW.

gradenko_2000 posted:

In this regard, an OSR for games like Phoenix Command and Twilight 2000 would be really great as far as all the low-intensity conflicts that have cropped up since the 80s that are just begging for modules, sourcebooks and campaigns to be written about them. Afghanistan, the Green Zone, Metavira, Srebrenica, Libya, Arstotzka, Syria, the Ukraine, Spec Ops The Line, and on and on.

I would totally do some of those if I had any idea about how the modern military works, preferably married to a less insanely crunchy ruleset though, like just take Twilight 2000 and dumb it down a little instead of going full on Phoenix Command.

# ¿ Aug 3, 2016 18:19

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Also speaking of Twilight 2000, you can get a giant bundle of first edition PDFs for like 40 bucks. I have no idea if that's a complete product line, but it's definitely everything you would need to run a game (minus dice and a couple of weirdos, of course).

# ¿ Aug 3, 2016 18:24

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Leperflesh posted:

Christ, it's such a wasted opportunity, too.

To call them Stalkers instead, I mean.

Call them anything else, seriously.

# ¿ Aug 4, 2016 02:00

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Glorified Scrivener posted:

Neat! I want to buy teo copies of this and send one to Ken Hite with a passive aggressive inscription referencing Gurps Alternate Earths.

Edit: Google is failing me, do you have a link to this. It does sound really interesting.

Well it's not actually out yet. They released an art free preview draft to $4 and higher backers on Patreon.

# ¿ Aug 6, 2016 01:42

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Error 404 posted:

[sad trombone.wav]

I think you mean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-GaXa8tSBE

# ¿ Aug 6, 2016 22:23

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

RocknRollaAyatollah posted:

It would make sense if Starfinder is the test bed. Star Wars was used as a test bed by WotC when they had the license, especially Saga Edition.

Man was it ever. Saga edition had a lot of weird mechanics in it. Some of them made it into 4e, the rest just fell by the wayside.

It's too bad Saga didn't use the 4e power system, I would have loved to see a Force Powers system with at-wills and encounters. Also with non-Jedi characters that don't suck.

# ¿ Aug 13, 2016 01:55

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Jesus Monte, don't be building your setting with 'exclusive secrets', that's just all the hallmarks of bad 90's design.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2016 20:17

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Bruceski posted:

--pay rent for anywhere from 3 months to a year depending on location
--decent down payment on a car

Hell 6000 paid for my car. Admittedly it's a few years old, but it's solid.

# ¿ Aug 15, 2016 22:41

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

moths posted:

I love this Monte Cook new-age 90's bullshit gift-box but holy gently caress, no way.

That said, nerds are a goldmine. Someone out there will be willing to pay any price to be one of four medallion bros with Monte.

Also I keep thinking that Phoenix: Dawn Command is an updated version of Phoenix Command.

Please tell me medallion bros isn't like JO crystals :ohdear:

# ¿ Aug 16, 2016 00:42

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Comrade Gorbash posted:

That's why I said the fact that Monte Cook doing it is the problem. I think people read my point as a defense of this project, or chiding people, and that was not the way intended it. I was lamenting that something with lots of elements that would be cool is being done by someone who's not actually going to take advantage of them.

Putting box space towards that stupid overpriced hand and the 500 spell cards is 100% Monte Cook. Someone with a better grasp of whats actually interesting about this would use that box space in a way that was more intelligent and useful.

I just wish someone like that would take a stab at an old school style box set with lots of game bits and feelies, and do it at a reasonable price point.

I miss cloth maps and figurines and dice and handouts and split books. The problem is how expensive that poo poo tends to be to make and ship out. Now if i had almost 200 a unit to make that, I could make it profitable and neat without including a 500 card spell book or a plastic sculpture of a hand.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2016 01:59

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Which would be fine if he didn't have a retail tier already.

# ¿ Aug 16, 2016 02:11

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Scyther posted:

The sun is invisible because nobody can see it, due to distance based penalties to Spot checks.

Now that I can believe.

# ¿ Aug 17, 2016 02:42

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Maxwell Lord posted:

Their policy is that they don't print PDFs of things that are still in print, or close enough that bookstores/game stores would still have a lot of copies. (Granted my local B&N still has a few core 4e rulebooks and that's on PDF now.)

It's not an especially good policy, but I can imagine that they're like "We don't want to anger the distributors" even if other companies are offering both physical and digital without ruffling feathers.

That is probably the second worst policy to have there. Of course, it's only beaten out by their immediately previous policy, which was 'NO PDF EVER!"

# ¿ Aug 19, 2016 19:44

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Yeah you can check for at least official support of a G+ community by whether or not creators post there.

# ¿ Aug 26, 2016 00:42

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Does anybody know how long the license is with Catalyst? I know it can't be a monthly fee sort of thing because if it had been they would have lost the license years ago with how badly they manage their finances.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2016 15:32

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

The best thing to do with Z is put him on ignore/block on every social media you encounter him in, and if you find people quoting him, encourage them to do the same.

# ¿ Aug 28, 2016 22:23

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

My dream is he becomes 'old man yells at cloud' levels relevant. That's unlikely though.

# ¿ Aug 29, 2016 00:05

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Nuns with Guns posted:

Zak admitted that he was also collecting together the tumblr handles of everyone who reblogged or liked the tumblr post about his involvement in 5e as a consultant to construct a list of names he could distribute to his industry ties to ensure they'd never work in the hobby. I wonder how successful that was...

Considering his industry ties at this point are Jack and poo poo I'd say not very.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2016 01:17

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Mors Rattus posted:

The hell is the warehouse for?

Unsold copies of the Rifter.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2016 14:40

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Alien Rope Burn posted:

I don't know if you're joking because this is close enough to be true.

Siembieda is fixated on making sure they have most of their books in stock. It doesn't matter if it's three months old or three decades old. There are exceptions- for awhile they tried to do the same with The Rifter, but after five years they started to realize keeping every issue in print was madness even by Palladium standards. That's why they sell "grab bags" of books cheap every year- to clear excess stock. I remember buying a book a few years ago from their booth that had literally yellowed with age.

That's also why if you ever shop for Palladium books online (not that I would know ), their old books are cheap as hell because they've been reprinted five or more times and there are way more copies of Rifts World Book Four: Africa floating around than the gaming community could possibly ever want or need. Granted, one copy would probably still be too many, but I'm sure you get the idea.

I was only half joking, I'm well aware of their insane policy of keeping everything in stock. Kev should just retool his lines to POD for the stuff that doesn't sell consistently, he'd potentially save a ton of money over keeping what is essentially pre recycled pulp around his warehouse.

# ¿ Aug 30, 2016 16:39

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Peas and Rice posted:

I also think that, apart from the online gaming community, there's a much larger gaming community that never sees or experiences any of the drama that we participate in, and they're the ones spending the majority of the money games. That's how established designers can still move a bunch of product and don't seem to be "punished" for questionable actions.

Oh I know there is. A lot of the people I've gamed with in the past have had no online presence at all. The rest maybe had like a Facebook and they didn't even follow any of the companies they played on it.

# ¿ Sep 1, 2016 14:54

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Evil Mastermind posted:

There's a rumor going around that Fantasy Flight is losing the Warhammer licence, and GW is looking around for new licencees. A few days ago, all of FFG's Warhammer Fantasy and 40k books were removed from DriveThru.

I think if this is true (and it seems like it), it's another dumb move on GW's part. I can't imagine Fantasy Flight has been anything but good for them.

That's terrible news if true. FFG's stuff was consistently on point for themes and the mechanics weren't bad.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2016 17:02

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Honestly if you're going to play Star Wars you need to do either original Trilogy (where Force powers are rare) or just go full KOTOR and have everybody play a Jedi.

# ¿ Sep 6, 2016 18:44

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Honestly every comment in there should be 'X months for ONE CHAPTER' where X is however long people have been waiting since the last missed deadline.

# ¿ Sep 7, 2016 19:23

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Evil Mastermind posted:

I think it's been a year of working on Chapter 9.

Far West is never coming out, he's spent all the money and is now going through delaying actions because he can't afford to actually print.

# ¿ Sep 7, 2016 19:27

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Evil Mastermind posted:

I think jivjov might be being sarcastic.

Oh.

Well that's dumb. Although it does remind me of someone saying once that Fate wouldn't work for Star Trek because Fate doesn't have the equipment granularity needed. Because, as we all know, what made Trek what is was was the equipment everyone carried.

Seriously, though, I think the problem is that for a lot of people, gear in RPGs is really important. Getting loot goes back to the roots of the hobby and hits the right part of your brain to make it something people will always look for. Of course, when you stay in that mindset you get poo poo like the d20 Modern Weapons Locker book.

(One of the many reasons I really like Fragged Empire is that it does away with the long-rear end list of slightly different weapons, and just lets you custom-design everything.)

Oh poo poo I have that book around here somewhere. It's pages upon pages of weapons that do identical damage (based on class of gun) and have marginally different features. I might even have the PDF version.

Edit: I have A PDF version... but I'm terrible at adobe

The pictures of the guns is a nice touch, but all the weapons on that page do 2d8 damage, weigh between 7 and 10 pounds, and are otherwise only differentiated by range increment, magazine size, and cost. There are 27 pages of just assault rifles laid out like this (although the M16 and its variants takes up 3 of those).

double edit: Look upon the M16 table and DESPAIR

Kwyndig fucked around with this message at 21:48 on Sep 7, 2016

# ¿ Sep 7, 2016 21:28

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

It has mostly to do with the fact that RPGs evolved out of wargames and boardgames.

# ¿ Sep 7, 2016 23:56

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Serf posted:

If you want to see something truly sad, flip to the Starships section of the EotE book and look and all those inane statblocks right outta some D&D garbage.

But it's cool you see because you can ignore them totally. Great game design.

I don't mind breaking out the minis for an important combat, but I also don't mind handling things narratively. I guess I'm weird?

# ¿ Sep 8, 2016 00:02

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Lemon-Lime posted:

There really isn't, sadly.

If you want a decent Star Wars RPG, use Fate, it's explicitly designed for that kind of pulpy action and isn't bogged down by bad custom dice and 300 pages of absurd nickel-and-dime feats and pointless great lists.

I'm not that familiar with FFG's SW but I love me some Fate, and yeah it's pretty much perfect for doing Star Wars.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2016 00:11

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# ¿ May 9, 2024 05:53

Kwyndig: Sep 23, 2006; Heeeeeey

Gravitas Shortfall posted:

Yeah, personally hate crunchy systems, it was just the idea and concept of these things, just books of cool ideas and tech that you could use. I'm not sure how you'd reconsile that with any kind of narrative system, since it'd just be pure fluff.

It's actually pretty easy if you use gear as permissions.

# ¿ Sep 8, 2016 00:23

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