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slap me and kiss me
Apr 1, 2008

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@forexposure_txt on twitter is a pretty horrendous look at entitlement.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Siivola posted:

It wasn't too long ago when regular people didn't play Magic at all, though. Far as I know, as a game it was super impenetrable and the smell was the least offensive thing about the playerbase. They've made very purposeful steps towards making it socially acceptable and mainstream. It's as much a question of effort as it is of resources, and I find it really hard to believe FFG or Onyx Path couldn't take at least some of those steps.

This is incorrect. When Magic was first released, it was all anyone did at school.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Alien Rope Burn posted:

Guillotine isn't really a brand. It's a product they print every five years or so, sometimes with revisions. It doesn't get or particularly need ongoing support.

The issue with D&D and sales is not supposition on my part - ex-Wizards employees have talked about, and it's about as close as we'll get to a matter of record. D&D 4e's subscription model was a major push to try and hit that mark, but it never actually made it, mostly on account of the video game rights being hosed at the time, and because Insider ate out of their own sales cupboard, as successful as it was (or rather, because it was so successful...). D&D 5e seems to be a resignation to just cut costs and give up hope of making that sales mark anymore.

Were I ever to try and make a living at tradgames, I think I'd try something like a free introductory pdf, a single book released at essentially cost, and everything else being included in a digital subscription, and maybe the option to do print on demand books.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Is there actually a difference in the minis between editions/versions of 40k (like obviously yes between the first iteration and now, but what about between two subsequent editions)?

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Apr 1, 2008

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What about some sort of system where the mini itself stays relatively constant and not in need of updates every cycle, but its attributes and stats and powers are updated with some sort of power card.

Your army would always have light infantry, heavy inf, etc, etc etc, but the units themselves would be updated by card packs you sell every 6 months or whatever

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Apr 1, 2008

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Kai Tave posted:

Privateer Press sssssssorta does this though not to the degree I think you're suggesting which is that you have a generic Blue Army Infantrydude that occasionally changes quite thoroughly in terms of what they do (like one set they're a standard sword-and-shield line infantry type but then in the next set they all become greatsword-wielding guys good against Black Army pike formations, that sorta thing). I feel like you could maybe do this but at that point the impetus to buy new miniatures would largely be gone as players would very quickly hit the saturation point where they have all the Blue Army Infantrydudes they could ever want whereas in more traditional-model miniatures games even if someone buys all the Cygnarian Trenchers they could ever hope to use, well, that just means they can move on to buying Long-Gunners or Gunmages or whatever the latest new release is as opposed to a pack of cards.

All of which is to say that what you're proposing is technically feasible and could even be quite cleverly designed but I don't think it would be an attractive model for publishers.

You're probably right, but at the same time, if you didn't always need to be buying new minis for Army Red, you might decide to start buying up alternative armies too; it's a heck of a lot less of an investment to build out two or three (or more) sets of dudes when you're assured that they're all not going to be obsolete in three years. Plus, I bet one could make a killing on the card sets as well.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Liquid Communism posted:

gently caress no. There's still sculpts from the 1990's that are the latest most up to date sculpt for some units, and even the 'recent' refresh on the Orks I just put together is dated 2005.

I'm confused. How do your models age out then? Or am I just not understanding the crazy that is mini games?

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Apr 1, 2008

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That's horrifying. I'm glad I'm just addicted to Robert Palmerlove.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Halloween Jack posted:

So another thing w/r/t 2e: in my experience, the fiercest edition wars concerning it have happened in retrospect. It's something you only see in particularly crusty forums, but some people resent what they see as TSR "chasing" White Wolf and their ilk with a new emphasis on "story" in the PHB rules and in the campaign settings they published. Also, people just hate Lorraine Williams for a lot of reasons both real and imagined.

By the by, did anybody here have the 1991 Black Box as their first D&D? It was technically a Basic product, but since Basic had its last gap in the form of the Rules Cyclopedia the same year, it was obviously meant to feed into buying AD&D2e stuff.

That was my first game. I actually found a copy on ebay the other day for $30, so I've gone back to my roots. The way they introduced new players to the game in the "Dungeon Card Learning Pack" was brilliant, and I'm looting it wholesale for my own stuff.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Comrade Koba posted:

Bigby's Invisible Hand

Bigby's Visible Gatekeeping

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Apr 1, 2008

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Falstaff posted:

The wizard's spellbook will never dismantle the wizard's tower.

Gradenko plays a pretty mean Transmute Rock to Mud
Transmutation [Earth]
Level: Drd 5, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: Up to two 10-ft. cubes/level (S)
Duration: Permanent
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

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Apr 1, 2008

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FMguru posted:

The problem with the every-book-must-have-crunch-in-it publishing model is that it's hard to produce a continuous stream of crunch that doesn't suffer from power creep, being straight-up broken, being redundant or unnecessary, or eventually becoming a giant unparsable mess that requires a player to sift through 30 separate books to make a character or buy equipment or choose combat maneuvers or whatever. D20 was famous for this, but see also GURPS 3E and even D&D 4E (for all its laudable focus of core classes being balanced and reskinning, 4E still had massive feat bloat).

Tabletop RPGs are a lot like television. Even if you start with a narrowly defined focus and super-tight concept, eventually you're filming Prison Break season 12: Escape from Planken Municipal Jail in Lichtenstein. The solution is to predefine your endpoint and start a new project when you get there.

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Apr 1, 2008

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The internet's reaction to all your work summed up in one perfect question:

some dude posted:

Just a random question, but why go through all this trouble, and why not just play 5E?

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Apr 1, 2008

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gradenko_2000 posted:

Frankly, because 5e doesn't have marks, healing surges, Tide of Iron, double-digit HP counts at level 1, and monster math that works.

Sampatrick posted:

Because everything else about 4e is better. People can have nuanced views on things.

I don't think I was clear enough. I'm not belittling gradenko's work, I'm belittling the internet.

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Apr 1, 2008

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gradenko_2000 posted:

Ah, my apologies.


I wasn't trying to "fix 5e by making 4e more like 5e", despite the title. I was trying to improve 4e by adopting this one "math trick" of handing out all of the "number treadmill" bonuses for free, and condensing it into a single addend.

No sweat! I think that what you're doing is super valuable, and it's a drat shame that WOTC didn't pursue this sort of approach for 5e rather than what we got.

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Barudak posted:

Did, did people actually roll for these stats then pick a class? I'm sure they must have but I can't imagine actually doing that.

Yep, that's exactly what my groups did back in 2e. It was always frustrating after you'd rolled like crap and someone managed to get a couple high rolls in front of the group and was able to play whatever they wanted.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Use a ouija board to get your numbers, be powered by ghosts.

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Apr 1, 2008

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D-bees.

"By this time, most of the disasters have quieted down, though Earth is still bathed in the released PPE. The planet's mystical energy has added untold numbers of alien beings from other dimensions, who continue to arrive through the Rifts both accidentally and deliberately. The humanoid creatures that arrive on earth are referred to as Dimensional Beings (called D-Bees). Some are familiar fantasy races, such as elves and dwarfs, while others have never been seen before (created specifically for the game setting). Non-humanoid creatures are have also arrived, including monstrous creatures and mystical demons with hides as strong as tank armor. The most powerful (and a common theme in the Palladium Megaverse) are the Lovecraftian Alien Intelligences, living mountains of flesh with lidless eyes, wriggling tentacles, and great supernatural powers. In some rare cases, even the ancient gods of mythology have returned to reclaim their former lands."

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Apr 1, 2008

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gradenko_2000 posted:

You seem to have covered a lot of the main points, but I will throw in that you want to build an aufience for your game BEFORE you launch the KS, and that you will want to devote the KS period to nothing but marketing for it.

This is sage advice for any project. Covok, if you don't have an audience already, you should delay your launch and spend a few months running playtests on different forums and stuff.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Covok posted:

Hmm, that is an interesting idea. I was thinking of recording either an audio only or video playtest for marketing and, reading over Sandbox #1, I probably should consider doing layout myself so I need some time to learn and master indesign. So, I guess I should try that. That way I can get some free quotes and opinions I can use as well as people who will sell the game for me.

Honestly ,this is a great idea!

Glad you like it. One thing I've noticed when pitching my stuff is that people often ask for examples of play - logs and videos, not concept examples.

If you can manage, try to record a session or two in several different mediums. That'll lower barriers to access and let peeps see your system run in a manner that's convenient to them.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Right. You want your marketing examples of play to be distinct and tonally different than your examples that explain rule concepts.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Halloween Jack posted:

Yeah, like 4e! :downsrim:

I don't think we're talking about MMOs right now.

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Apr 1, 2008

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quote:

2. ... or even to try to lead their judgments about whether their PbtA games are "really" PbtA. I can only see this as an illegitimate effort to manage and incorrectly enforce Meg's and my policy, in a manner materially hostile to Meg's and my interests. I am its enemy. ...

goons posted:

Well actually,

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Apr 1, 2008

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gradenko_2000 posted:

Let Thrones Beware is PBTA. Sorry but that's my headcanon now.

I was expecting to be outplayed, but not that quickly.

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Apr 1, 2008

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quote:

still be contemporary rather than historical.

Missing a word there

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Apr 1, 2008

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Leperflesh posted:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rec.games.frp.dnd

Go hog wild!

here lemme help some more: a search on "second edition sucks"


e. lol here's a good result
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/rec.games.frp.dnd/2nd$20edition$20sucks%7Csort:relevance/rec.games.frp.dnd/RC7tncBnEa8/_4IKxNC8veUJ

Posted april 22, 1998. I wonder if William L. Leary, Jr. would stand by his steadfast defense of 1st edition, even today?

Oh man, that's the good stuff.

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Comrade Koba posted:

Wait, seriously?

Well then, I'm sure they won't object if I post AD&D conversions of tieflings, dragonborn and warlords. :smugbert:

Dragonborn are just Draconians with fancy hats. AD&D 2nd Edition is the only game you need.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Speaking of fun balance approaches, pd0t's been talking about some neat revisions to TNP where advancement allows you to add more classes and subclasses to your character, so over time you go wider rather than deep.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Countblanc posted:

Speaking as a player, the last thing I want to do is to start coming up with reasons why my martial artist has decided to pick up the bow, learn magic, and figure out how to turn into a bear rather than simply focus more on his martial arts; I made him a monk to punch things, and that's what I want to get better at. And personally I find restricted class systems more fun than open ended multiclassing since it allows for tighter balance rather than needing to worry about significantly more options.

That sounds like a very D&D centric way of looking at building a character. More power to you, but it's certainly not the only way.

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Mors Rattus posted:

I'm just saying, when you point at a country whose mores and laws are built almost entirely on industry and profit with no care for social issues beyond that, Saudi Arabia's not it.

Right. The country you want is Canada:

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Apr 1, 2008

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People can post things on the internet, but it doesn't make them smart.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Someone should send that to Mearls

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Martials ruin everything.

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Apr 1, 2008

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Everyone knows if you go against established fiction, the game system has a way of shutting down.

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Apr 1, 2008

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The trick is digital delivery of content - through lootboxes - on your mobile device.

"NO steve, you don't get to do a full cleave until you roll the feat on the app."

"Susan, for the fortieth time, I don't want to drink the potion because it's a consumable, and that means it'll be deleted once I use it."

...

I'm gonna be a millionaire.

Original idea, do not steal.

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Apr 1, 2008

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My black box basic D&D set game with a gridded map and cardboard cutouts of the heroes and monsters.

It's always been a boardgame

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Apr 1, 2008

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We have always been at war with eastasia other nerds.

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Comrade Koba posted:

I knew about counterfeit GW models being sold cheaply online, but I had no idea it was a thing with boardgames as well.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, some guy(s) just buys a copy of Carcassonne or whatever and sends it to some Chinese print shop and tells them to make a couple thousand identical copies?



I have an idea about bringing 4e back to market...

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theironjef posted:

FATAL pushed my Patreon to $600. I don't think it has any other redeeming features though.

I wonder if that's more money than FATAL itself made.

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"It's been old man Smithers Shadow of the Demon Lord the whole time!"

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