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Kestral posted:I vaguely recall the distinction he made being that Blades is not PBTA, because it is sufficiently mechanically distinct, but is inspired by Apocalypse World. Blades is to AW as Chuubo's is to Nobilis 3e, or, if you want to push the comparison a bit, Blades:AW::Burning Wheel:Shadowrun 1e. Interestingly, Harper includes Apocalypse World and Burning Wheel in his list of games that inspired Blades and lists Vincent in his thank-yous. Dunno if he sees Blades as a separate thing but he doesn't use PbtA labels in the book. Weirdly, Blades is included in the PbtA games on the AW website. Not sure if Harper asked for that or if it was Vincent's judgement call.
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Sep 12, 2017 05:14
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Nuns with Guns posted:Interestingly, Harper includes Apocalypse World and Burning Wheel in his list of games that inspired Blades and lists Vincent in his thank-yous. Dunno if he sees Blades as a separate thing but he doesn't use PbtA labels in the book. Weirdly, Blades is included in the PbtA games on the AW website. Not sure if Harper asked for that or if it was Vincent's judgement call. Harper has done PbtA stuff before. Blades itself is, mechanics aside, absolutely a PbtA game. It respects the fiction, gives the players narrative power, and imposes a very PbtA-like structure on the GM (agenda, principles, the downtime/score dichotomy.). You just roll different dice for different reasons based on different numbers with more crunch in handling the results.
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Sep 12, 2017 06:43
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Cease to Hope posted:baker is saying that anyone anywhere can call their own game pbta if they want, there are no rules or preconditions or barriers or boundaries Yeah, my point (and maybe Kestral's) is that Harper doesn't feel that BitD fits.
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Sep 12, 2017 07:58
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Cease to Hope posted:baker is saying that anyone anywhere can call their own game pbta if they want, there are no rules or preconditions or barriers or boundaries Yes, my post was in reference to what I recall Harper saying about his game. Edit: Thanks Subjunctive. That's what I get for not finishing a post in one go. Nuns with Guns posted:Interestingly, Harper includes Apocalypse World and Burning Wheel in his list of games that inspired Blades and lists Vincent in his thank-yous. Dunno if he sees Blades as a separate thing but he doesn't use PbtA labels in the book. Weirdly, Blades is included in the PbtA games on the AW website. Not sure if Harper asked for that or if it was Vincent's judgement call.
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Sep 12, 2017 08:21
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PbtA is the new OSR.
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Sep 12, 2017 12:16
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You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the grog.
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Sep 12, 2017 12:33
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Cease to Hope posted:baker is saying that anyone anywhere can call their own game pbta if they want, there are no rules or preconditions or barriers or boundaries Breakfast Cult is a PbtA game, eat it nerds
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Sep 12, 2017 13:29
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quote:2. ... or even to try to lead their judgments about whether their PbtA games are "really" PbtA. I can only see this as an illegitimate effort to manage and incorrectly enforce Meg's and my policy, in a manner materially hostile to Meg's and my interests. I am its enemy. ... goons posted:Well actually,
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Sep 12, 2017 13:39
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Let Thrones Beware is PBTA. Sorry but that's my headcanon now.
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Sep 12, 2017 13:42
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gradenko_2000 posted:Let Thrones Beware is PBTA. Sorry but that's my headcanon now. I was expecting to be outplayed, but not that quickly.
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Sep 12, 2017 13:44
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BESM D20 is now Powered by the Apocalypse.
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Sep 12, 2017 14:42
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quote:The directory here at apocalypse-world.com/pbta follows this definition and no other. For ambiguous cases, I've relied on explicit guidance from the creators, as in the cases of Blades in the Dark (included), The Bloody-Handed Name of Bronze (included), and Malandros (not included). If you "disagree with," or more properly don't understand, a given game's inclusion, I hope this clears it up for you. So presumably Harper does consider BitD to be PbtA, or he wouldn't have responded as such when Baker asked him. If he said otherwise previously, maybe he wasn't aware of the definition given here at the time.
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Sep 12, 2017 14:55
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moths posted:PbtA is the new OSR. Sorry, but PbtA doesn't yet have enough fascists and transphobic serial harassers to be the new OSR.
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Sep 12, 2017 14:56
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Nuns with Guns posted:Interestingly, Harper includes Apocalypse World and Burning Wheel in his list of games that inspired Blades and lists Vincent in his thank-yous. If I wrote something I would definitely thank Vincent regardless of what my game looked like because my GMing advice would doubtlessly read similar to AW stuff.
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Sep 12, 2017 15:45
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Lemon-Lime posted:Sorry, but PbtA doesn't yet have enough fascists and transphobic serial harassers to be the new OSR. That we know of.
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Sep 12, 2017 17:34
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Lemon-Lime posted:Sorry, but PbtA doesn't yet have enough fascists and transphobic serial harassers to be the new OSR. Side-note: can someone explain to me what exactly OSR means? I thought it was a general movement to go back to 1st ed D&D and "Appendix N" type of adventures, and questionably-drawn black and white art (like DCC, which I find fun to play). And why has it attracted the dregs of the hobby?
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Sep 12, 2017 17:48
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Peas and Rice posted:Side-note: can someone explain to me what exactly OSR means? I thought it was a general movement to go back to 1st ed D&D and "Appendix N" type of adventures, and questionably-drawn black and white art (like DCC, which I find fun to play). And why has it attracted the dregs of the hobby? Regressive game design attracts regressive politics.
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Sep 12, 2017 17:50
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Peas and Rice posted:Side-note: can someone explain to me what exactly OSR means? I thought it was a general movement to go back to 1st ed D&D and "Appendix N" type of adventures, and questionably-drawn black and white art (like DCC, which I find fun to play). And why has it attracted the dregs of the hobby? Old School Renaissance/Revolution. And gently caress knows. 
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Sep 12, 2017 17:50
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Peas and Rice posted:Side-note: can someone explain to me what exactly OSR means? I thought it was a general movement to go back to 1st ed D&D and "Appendix N" type of adventures, and questionably-drawn black and white art (like DCC, which I find fun to play). And why has it attracted the dregs of the hobby? shameless plug: https://songoftheblade.wordpress.com/2015/09/23/a-short-history-of-the-osr/
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Sep 12, 2017 17:54
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gradenko_2000 posted:shameless plug: DCC is "gonzo," I guess that's why I like it. I was going to pitch Goodman on a couple of DCC adventure ideas that have been knocking around in my head for a while, but reading about all the vileness that's attracted to OSR, I kind of want to spend my energy somewhere else.
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Sep 12, 2017 18:01
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It's also absurdly picky about what is or is not OSR, the "influence pedigree" of games, and seemingly more interested in tribalism than fun. ...Which has some unnerving echoes in this latest PbtA press release.
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Sep 12, 2017 18:13
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Peas and Rice posted:And why has it attracted the dregs of the hobby?
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Sep 12, 2017 18:14
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moths posted:It's also absurdly picky about what is or is not OSR, the "influence pedigree" of games, and seemingly more interested in tribalism than fun. Everything can call itself PbtA, how is that at all the same thing? The only thing that's being made official has to do with the business and legal use of PbtA as a means of official advertising and branding of your book (using logos, using quotes from the original book, etc). Like, did you not read the section that keeps getting quoted in this very thread?
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Sep 12, 2017 18:22
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It still amounts to them dictating who's allowed to use their particular Nintendo Seal of Quality. Granted they're a lot more liberal in distribution, but ultimately it's similar e: There we go. moths fucked around with this message at 23:42 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 18:46
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moths posted:It still amounts to them dictating who's allowed to use their particular Nintendo Seal of Quality. "The OSR" is not any one person's creation, someone came up with the term but nobody made OSR Inc. and published the OSR RPG to kick things off, it's a catch-all term embraced by people making a particular sort of game (namely retreads of OD&D et al). Apocalypse World and PbtA are Vince Baker's creations and I think labeling it as "gatekeeping" for him to retain the option to say no to someone who wants to use his trade dress to make Nazi Furry Vore Warriors: Kill Six Billion Jews: the RPG is a real weird take.
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Sep 12, 2017 18:57
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I mean there really actually is an "OSR" label, but AFAIK there isn't any one authority that determines who can use it, and I reviewed a game that still tagged itself as OSR despite using a 1d6 resolution system, so as far as I know it means sweet gently caress all.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:03
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gradenko_2000 posted:shameless plug: quote:still be contemporary rather than historical. Missing a word there
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Sep 12, 2017 19:06
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Kestral posted:Yes, my post was in reference to what I recall Harper saying about his game. Blades was developed following a very long Stars Without Number campaign that Harper ran, so merging Apocalypse World and campaign longevity was absolutely a major goal.
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Sep 12, 2017 19:09
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moths posted:It still amounts to them dictating who's allowed to use their particular Nintendo Seal of Quality. lol Do you seriously believe the guy going "I own the trademark to this but I'm letting everyone who wants to use it use it, and people who want to use it shouldn't feel constrained by idiots debating whether or not their game is PbtA ad nauseam" is functionally equivalent to "this game isn't real OSR because it lets women pick a class other than whore, and the author should be forced to commit suicide because they once +1'd a post saying that bigotry is bad," or are you just trolling?
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Sep 12, 2017 20:13
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I'm not making any value judgements, he's absolutely drawing a circle around stuff and saying it's part of his thing. It's a big circle that (so far) isn't full of lovely people, but it's not like this is a never-before-seen in gaming phenomenon. And it's just as tedious as every other codification of genre and what counts as what.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:19
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If you make something, you should at least be allowed to have a say in how other creators represent and use it. If you don't protect your ideas in that regard, you can get Pathfindered easily.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:23
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Well ultimately you can't copyright game mechanics so you can get Pathfinder'd either way as far as I know.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:28
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Not necessarily, at least in the area of games by law. Edit: Game mechanics aren't protected by copyright. He specifically used the language "our words," which are. So the phrase "Tap a card by rotation" could be copywritten, but the act of rotating a card to indicate it's been activated cannot. Like, I get that from his perspective he's fostering a healthy community of games and systems. But once something's out there, it's out in the wild. Asking for designers to putting PbtA on derived works is adding them to give him recognition, which is fair but hardly legally binding. But then you don't get to reserve the right to selectively approved who cites your contribution to their mechanics based on content. This will probably be more of an issue after the internet comes up with a Nazi Furry Vore Genocide simulator that's 80% PbtA and he (rightly) wants to cry foul. moths fucked around with this message at 20:41 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 20:39
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Peas and Rice posted:And why has it attracted the dregs of the hobby? Second, in any hobby, the lovely people are the ones who identify too strongly with the products they buy. In my experience reading OSR blogs and such, there's a very strong thread of "This was fun for me when I was 12, so I have an inalienable right to enjoy it now." How lovely they are is proportional to how much they make being a gamer (or whatever) their whole identity. At best, from what I can see, there are guys who were raised in the era of Heavy Metal and are unapologetic about D&D adventures full of titty witches and chainmail bikinis and virgin sacrifices to Cthulhu. That some of these guys are middle-aged family men with daughters of their own is kind of scary. At worst you have the stereotypical Cat Piss Man. Third, there's the fact that if you're writing really gross Magical Realm poo poo, you're likely to use some version of OGL as the system. Nobody who writes "games" about owlbear rape wants to do any real design work.
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Sep 12, 2017 20:50
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moths posted:Asking for designers to putting PbtA on derived works  quote:If you'd like to use our PbtA logo in your game's book design or trade dress, ask us, and we'll grant permission for you to do so. This isn't a requirement of any sort.
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Sep 12, 2017 21:26
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Oops I got a word wrong. Also what's that new emoticon? E: it's also pretty clearly an invitation to use the logo. Much like how "If you'd like a beer, they're in the refrigerator" is. moths fucked around with this message at 21:40 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 21:37
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moths posted:This will probably be more of an issue after the internet comes up with a Nazi Furry Vore Genocide simulator that's 80% PbtA and he (rightly) wants to cry foul. moths posted:Oops I got a word wrong. Peas and Rice posted:Side-note: can someone explain to me what exactly OSR means? I thought it was a general movement to go back to 1st ed D&D and "Appendix N" type of adventures, and questionably-drawn black and white art (like DCC, which I find fun to play). And why has it attracted the dregs of the hobby? OSR stands for Old School Renaissance/Revival, and in its most basic form is a movement to reintroduce old games into the community. Partly this in terms of just straight up playing BECMI and OD&D and similar games, usually stuff from before 1990. There's also a call for production of new games based on those old systems, concepts, and themes. A lot of indie designers were at least tangentially involved with OSR when it first started being a thing. I know the Eclipse Phase dev team and some other indie designers ran a multi-month BECMI game, for example, and were really excited about getting a different perspective on those games. Even people who played them often only half-remember how they worked, and that's before you get into the mythos that grew up around them, and the fact that many of the people involved played in highschool and didn't exactly follow RAW. There's a lot of potential good in getting a clear, hands on understanding of just how those games functioned, and the way assumptions about TTRPGs have changed over time. A hallmark of early TTRPGs is that they're disjointed in terms of mechanics. Different subsystems have essentially nothing to do with each other - they were designed in a "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" manner over time. Later editions and games tried to rationalize their mechanics and have unified resolution systems and more intuitive game play. In doing so, though, they often ran into places they had to choose between path A and path B, both equally valid, but incompatible with each other. There was nothing inherently wrong with choosing path A, but one of the supposed attractions of OSR was to go back and follow the "alternate history" where path B was chosen, taking those old concepts and giving them a modern design work up the same way the path A mechanics got. But a lot of people attracted to OSR didn't want to update the old games - they just wanted to republish the old games with some new random tables glued onto the appendixes at the end. That itself wouldn't have been too bad - it would have just been the dumping ground for lovely heartbreakers and hack job products, the way d20 was at one point. Unfortunately, like Jack said, a lot of OSR participants are very reactionary in general. The loudest people in the room didn't just want to share the old games - they wanted to prove that they were objectively better than the new ones. And that very quickly got tied up with defending the worst OSR products, many of which were catching shade not because of their mechanics, but their racist, sexist, and otherwise awful content. It only took a couple cycles of people washing their hands of one lovely product or another before OSR became totally dominated by the toxic elements. And that attracted more toxic elements who were feeling (the most minor of) pressure from more progressive designers, and created a standard where they had to defend every OSR product to the death. And that then brought in even more people who were either already or well on their way to becoming pariahs, because putting any piece of garbage that could be labeled OSR was a way to get a crop of apologists for any other dumb poo poo they were up to. It's really disappointing because the elevator pitch of what OSR could be is really interesting, but it's been twisted into a banner for shitlords to rally around each other. A handy fig leaf to throw out when someone tries to call them on their lovely-ness, as saying "oh you're just mad about elf game mechanics because you hate OSR," and there are a bunch of slightly-less-lovely useful idiots willing to grab onto that to avoid having the actually take a meaningful stand on anything. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Sep 12, 2017 |
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Sep 12, 2017 22:09
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moths posted:Oops I got a word wrong. And he also makes it clear that if you don't want to use it you don't have to even if your game is inspired by the various PbtA works ala Blades in the Dark so I'm still not sure what your overall point here is.
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Sep 12, 2017 22:17
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My read was that he wants PbtA to be a community over which he has veto power. But apparently that's a crazy-coo-coo psychotic read, so who even cares anymore? Not me!Comrade Gorbash posted:It only took a couple cycles of people washing their hands of one lovely product or another before OSR became totally dominated by the toxic elements. And that attracted more toxic elements who were feeling (the most minor of) pressure from more progressive designers, and created a standard where they had to defend every OSR product to the death. And that then brought in even more people who were either already or well on their way to becoming pariahs, because putting any piece of garbage that could be labeled OSR was a way to get a crop of apologists for any other dumb poo poo they were up to. One way to read the OSR's adopting toxic content is that they actively want to push progressive not-poo poo people out of the clubhouse. It seems to have been formed as a reaction to gaming's popularity, and one happy side-effect of tabletop going mainstream is that you no longer had to play with Racist Greg because now there's five other DMs in town. Pre-internet tabletop gaming was an extremely unstable thing, players were unbelievably rare, and you couldn't tell Greg to gently caress off because the ensuing drama would split up the group and end D&D nights forever. As gaming became more popular, the Gregs were finally replaceable. But instead of growing as people, they attributed their ostracizing to "new games." Gregs weren't the problem, "Accessibility" and "Political Correctness" were the problem. Early gaming was absolutely a golden age for shitheads, if only because they had a guarenteed place at the table. Titty-witches and rape golems were what enabled that, but only by keeping a lot of normal people out. By saturating their new community with reprehensible poo poo they're able to reconstruct their smaller community of like-minded Gregs. It's like a radicalization of nerds.
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Sep 12, 2017 23:22
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Comrade Gorbash posted:It's really disappointing because the elevator pitch of what OSR could be is really interesting, but it's been twisted into a banner for shitlords to rally around each other. A handy fig leaf to throw out when someone tries to call them on their lovely-ness, as saying "oh you're just mad about elf game mechanics because you hate OSR," and there are a bunch of slightly-less-lovely useful idiots willing to grab onto that to avoid having the actually take a meaningful stand on anything. Well nuts. I guess I'll file OSR away with the Gadsden flag as something that the garbage have ruined for the rest of us. (I will still enjoy playing DCC though because it's fun and gonzo).
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Sep 12, 2017 23:28
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