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  • Locked thread
Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I too am basically willing to live with a little risk in KS and a certain... conceptual incoherence if it means more cool stuff gets done. It's not exploiting consumers on the same level as, say, Rent A Center or the local check-into-cash place, it's more a question of having to look at each project individually.

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Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Gau posted:

Clearly, the rational response is to write a D&D adventure where you go around killing a bunch of rape-justifying goblins and orcs who like awful games, led by the lich Ditpun and a huge troll named Frank.

Half-troll.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Ewen Cluney posted:

But to me the bigger issue with the license is simply that if you're a current or aspiring game publisher, the Numenera license has basically nothing to offer over the many other open systems you can use for free. I've heard good things about Numenera overall, but if I decide I want to use an existing system, right off the bad I have d20/Pathfinder, Fudge, Fate, Savage Worlds, Open D6, etc. available to me for free, several of which have a much more proven track record.

This is what I'm taking from it as well. There's something about this that almost seems worse than just not putting out a public license at all. Plenty of games don't have licenses to allow you to use their systems, and that's all well and good. If Monte Cook feels he needs to protect the system or that it's a key part of the game's market value- so he can't just give it away to anyone to make copies- hey, that's valid.

Instead he seems to think it's good enough that people will pay to use it?

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

8one6 posted:

Ha! I'd loving love to see them try to move to the KC metro area (let alone Lee's Summit.) I'd say we have the con space, but everything is so spread out around here it would suck to have try to hold a con that big here. We might have more hotel rooms than Indy has right now, but that's only if you count the entire metro area, parking sucks on the best of days, and public transit in KC is a loving joke.

And that's assuming that weekend doesn't have a concert or a basketball game.

Planet Comicon has been doing pretty good at Bartle Hall. Not much game related stuff there, I think there may be room for some kind of gaming con.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Well, I was arguing the con itself would do well- you COULD hold an event like GenCon here and probably do okay, but you're right that it'd be a zoo. Though maybe if that streetcar ever gets finished...

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
However well it's doing, 5th does seem to be intended by Hasbro as the minimum maintenance edition, with a small staff putting out a minimal amount of adventure material. I'm not surprised they're not putting money into Free Rpg Day.

Maxwell Lord fucked around with this message at 03:28 on Jun 23, 2015

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Blue Rose was what made the Pundit get banned from RPG.net and set up his own site in the first place. He just would not shut up about the evil magic deer.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Yeah, last time I was in a Wal-Mart I saw this weird little "nerdy stuff" space near the checkouts- there have always been Magic and other CCG products there, but they had Clix and other gaming stuff, can't recall if there was any D&D.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
For a time, Palladium had its finger on the pulse of what geeky teens wanted from their games. Cybernetic dragons with psionic powers, weapon porn, skulls!

I seem to recall Rifts was once a reliable #3 on game company charts behind AD&D and Vampire.

But of course, nothing ever changed, and the Crisis of Treachery just exposed how bad things had gotten at the company.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Getting away from D&D for a bit, you know what I miss? Cheap, small, funky counter-based wargames. I picked up an old issue of Space Gamer at a HPB some time ago and it features this game called "Kung Fu 2100" which is about kung-fu masters battling the evil Clonemasters- the map is a Clonemaster's house, he's got guards and servants everywhere, the Kung-Fu guys have all sorts of magic tricks- I have no idea if it's any good at all, but the point is it's this weird little minigame, and adjusted for inflation the issue would have cost 5.75 (bearing in mind of course that printing costs have skyrocketed, etc.)

OGRE and GEV are also classic examples of what I'm talking about- they were once sold in these small little snap cases. Cheap components, still fairly basic rules-wise, exploring unusual design concepts and spinning little science fiction stories next to them.

Nowadays what few hex and counter wargames get published tend to be very hardcore groggy simulations- nobody's printing Tactics or Kriegspiel, they've sort of accepted their fate as a niche. Wargaming now more or less means miniatures wargaming, which is fine but limits some ideas based on scale (and tends to be less about terrain because you end up making the battlefield yourself.) Board games frequently explore weird concepts, but the standard for components and art there are high enough that there's no point trying to do it on the cheap.

It's a weird little category of gaming that's fallen by the wayside and I'm not sure how it can be revisited.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
On a similar note I recall Magic's sixth edition, released in 1999, being dubbed "Pokémagic" on usenet forums by the usual haters.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

MalcolmSheppard posted:

Board wargaming is very much a thing, but computer games hit it pretty drat hard. Nowadays you get company-based crowdfunding, where if X customers order, it comes out, and they hand out draft rules and such along the way. See: http://www.gmtgames.com/t-GMTP500Details.aspx

Like I said, though, there's not a lot of introductory or easy stuff there, they're catering to the hardcore that's left.

(I also wish computer wargames weren't all exclusively 4x "build and expand" type stuff, but that's another issue.)

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
It really seems like anything OSR that bills itself as weird or gonzo fantasy gets an easy ride. Just throw in X amount of weird or extreme elements and tick the boxes and you're gold.

It's a problem with any subculture in a medium, they're hostile to anything not-sufficiently-punk/metal/OSR but once you pass the purity test nobody cares if you're, you know, good.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Edgelords?

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Fossilized Rappy posted:

EDIT: To avoid keeping the topic on nothing but the vengeful devil man's game, I have a question on the TG industry that's been rattling around in my head lately, even if it's not a particularly interesting one.

Exactly how viable is it to keep your business afloat with mid-range cost ($6 to $15 range or so) PDF sales? It's the bread and butter of the majority of OBS publishers, and Steve Jackson Games has more or less entirely moved GURPS to that format (though admittedly they have Munchkin sales that probably contribute more to their buoyancy), so it seems like it is at least somewhat successful, but I was curious if anyone had an actual insider opinion on the matter.

SJG is basically kept entirely afloat by Munchkin, which is basically now the geek Monopoly (nobody thinks it's terribly good but Jesus Christ does it sell.) I think for anyone else, at best you're looking at a supplementary source of income, not a living wage and certainly not enough to pay for multiple employees + overhead etc.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Leperflesh posted:

I think it'd be nice to resurrect a timeless classic: "chauvinist pigs."

Doesn't quite sum it up- some of it's not specifically sexist but just generally creepy as poo poo, some of it's racist or transphobic or something else besides typical patriarchy.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Asimo posted:

This isn't really in doubt, no. Heinsoo fought a long and hard battle to keep Wizards from being an invincible god-king class among several other things and he basically got harassed out of the company due to it.

Is there any more info about how Heinsoo got cut? I assumed it was typical indiscriminate Hasbro cutting, 4e's critics like to point to his firing as a sign that it was already in trouble before Essentials, and he himself- has been smart and diplomatic and focused on his present gig and I'm not about to badger a guy with "So, how did you get screwed over at your last job?"

Like I do sometimes feel like he got stabbed in the back in order to make way for what Mearls and Co. wanted D&D to be, but that also feels like wishful thinking on my part, like "no, 4e would totally have been regarded as a massive commercial success if not for office politics".

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Homelands was a bad expansion but the lore was kinda neat.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I do think maybe, 4e could have managed to present itself more "traditionally" while still doing all the mechanical updates that made it a great game. As it was, both the crunch AND the fluff were changed quite a bit so it took a while to adjust to the new status quo (and if you didn't want to adjust, here comes Paizo/the OSR to the rescue!)

That said, the new fluff was also awesome so I dunno.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

homullus posted:

They would have made 5e anyway. It probably would have been a little later, and it definitely would have been different.

Well, that's the thing- maybe if they hadn't bought into the edition war rhetoric, 5e wouldn't have thrown so much of 4e out. Maybe we would still have cool useful fighters, and warlords who can heal, and monster math that's easy to use, etc.

And I still feel like there was a lot of design space left in 4e that went unexplored. Good support for Epic-level play, cracking open Power design, streamlining Feats. Instead we get a game where you can't do half of what you used to be able to do and that's good because Player Entitlement is the scourge of our times.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Elfgames posted:

1 the ogl is the gaming equivilant to a tire fire and 2 they really could because guess game mechanics can't be copywritten and just about everything you need to make 4e is already under the 3e ogl if someone wanted to make a true to life bastardized 4e i doubt wizards could stop them.

The thing is, you're probably legally in the right, and legally the OGL isn't even necessary. But nobody has the money to fight a lawsuit from Wizards, so any C&D they issue is going to be followed even if it wouldn't hold up in court.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

gradenko_2000 posted:

True20 already converts Saving Throws into Defenses (insofar that itself was a 3.5e UA variant rule), and you already have the Move-Standard-Swift actions as the equivalent of Move-Standard-Minor actions, and we've seen games like FantasyCraft muck around with what actually triggers OAs, and 5e itself can define a Short Rest as 5 minutes and an ability as only being reusable once every Short Rest, and so on and so forth, so yeah, it should be possible to make "not-4e within the OGL" if you had enough time and effort.

It'd be wordy as gently caress if you tried to describe these abilities the way 3.5e/Pathfinder does it*, but it should be possible.

* there's also something to be said about differentiating 3.5e/Pathfinder's "writing style" with 5e's "naturalistic" writing style. 3.x wrote out rules in full paragraphs, but it was still firmly ensconced in mechanics and were generally structured to be mostly bulletproof.

Well there's also the boatload of status effects that aren't the same as 3.5/SRD status effects, and in general the problem is 4e is written in a concise technical fashion that's hard to reword without losing some clarity.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
PF Online has so many mistakes in its history it's hard to get started.

Like to be sure, starting a software company and making an MMO your first product is up there. So many MMOs have failed and dragged publishers with them. Do a single player RPG! People like those!

There's setting it in the dullest part of Golarion. There's tying it all to "player generated content". There's promising open PVP but we'll totally keep out the goons, guys, we have plans. There's crowd funding when that money clearly won't cover your actual costs, meaning backers are rewarded with an incomplete product.

I'm surprised Dancey hasn't fled to the Cayman Islands already.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Asimo posted:

I love the "oh I would totally love a plaintext file instead!" arguments because they are so transparently bullshit. A proper layout and art are actually pretty critical to RPGs, since they help break up the text and make it easier to remember where various sections of the text are in the book. It's the same reason good textbooks have chapter illustrations, tables, and other visual cues. Someone who claims they would prefer going without is like, the perfect example of someone who has no idea of what they actually want in a product.

Also it doesn't make a whole lot of difference to printed books. The reason books, comics, RPGs have increased in price as much as they have is because the basic costs of ink, paper, etc. have boomed. Like even if comics went back to being printed on newspaper it wouldn't lower the price much. Black and white maybe, but even then, you may as well go for color and glossy paper so the buyer thinks they're getting value for money.

Obviously this doesn't apply to ebooks, but like you said, layout and editing are kinda important.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Covok posted:

I never played it or read it, but Cartoon Action Hour(?) is all about 80s shows like He-Man.

I've read the first two editions and they're pretty strong (though it's the kind of build-a-power system that you can cheese if you try.) Worked on a supplement for the first but I don't know if it's still available.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Halloween Jack posted:

As Malcolm Sheppard put it, Palladium's hiring conditions at this point essentially filter out competence. They really only want fan writers who would consider themselves lucky to get their work published anywhere. Not that that makes their practices acceptable or that their writers deserve the now-infamous Siembieda treatment.

ISTR reading about this happening with regards to the new Exalted or some such- freelance applicants had to answer a big questionnaire about their favorite parts of Exalted lore because they only wanted existing super fans to work on it.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I know the 30th (?) Anniversary book had some confirmation on that but I can't dig it up right now.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Threepio as a lazylord is utterly brilliant.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Their policy is that they don't print PDFs of things that are still in print, or close enough that bookstores/game stores would still have a lot of copies. (Granted my local B&N still has a few core 4e rulebooks and that's on PDF now.)

It's not an especially good policy, but I can imagine that they're like "We don't want to anger the distributors" even if other companies are offering both physical and digital without ruffling feathers.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Humbug Scoolbus posted:

I'm still getting money from it which is cool and still kind of insane

code:
Publisher	Title						Units Sold
Lee's Lists	100 Dances					1		
Lee's Lists	100 Fantasy Villages				3		
Lee's Lists	100 More Fantasy Villages			2		
Lee's Lists	100 Steampunk Inventions			4		
Lee's Lists	100 Useless Summonings and Conjurations		2		
Lee's Lists	102 Martial Arts Styles				3		
Lee's Lists	2400+ 19th Century Occupations			6		
Lee's Lists	53 Medieval Occupations				7		
Lee's Lists	Fantasy Maps: Villages of Adventure 1		2		
Lee's Lists	List Compendium, Volume 1			3		
											Total:	$16.21
edit: this was 01/2016 to 08/2016

Too lazy to do "List of a Thousand Dances", even.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Valatar posted:

Wow, yay, some people whose things we've bought gave a handjob to the blindingly corrupt money-grubbing candidate over the bugfuck crazy grandpa candidate. I feel hope and joy and love, let's all join arms and sing kumbaya together.

Okay, I have to say this- Hilary Clinton has been under investigation for about a quarter of a century now. She has yet to be indicted once.

She's either not "blindingly corrupt" or she's a loving criminal genius.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I had a good experience with them getting my accounts merged and updating my DDI sub with a new debit card so obviously they were getting too close to online competence and had to start screwing up somewhere else to compensate.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Why would you do random chargen for an RPG based on a video game RPG where the point is customization and free choice

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
"Folk" sounds nice too.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
I get Sage Genesis' complaint: a lot of times I'll read a review of some "Weird Fantasy" or OSR product that's basically "It sure is weird! 10/10!" Like this was the thing about Carcosa, apart from the really sick stuff it's "this hex has 3d10 shoggoths ridden by Purple Men" and this very dry presentation, but the content was strange so it could not be questioned. There's a lot of words-not-the-music in RPG writing.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

To be fair lowtax had over his absence been completely unaware of loosechange.jpg and when he found out he banned him instantly

Same as aatrek being outed

Aatrek was a bit more cut-and-dry- it wasn't just a question of "we should believe victims", he'd been like convicted and confessed (sort of), he was like 120% guilty.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Kurieg posted:

If you're still talking about BHM. When confronted with the accusation he voluntarily stepped down. And the accuser was in touch with the mods in private. There's very little doubt that something happened, we're just in the dark on degree.

Yeah, I certainly don't mean to say he's not guilty- I think the delay in banning him was down to trying to verify.

Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer

Subjunctive posted:

Does verification require a real person to appear in front of an RPGnet mod, or is it mere internet conversation?

I don't know what conversations took place among the mods. I think they should have banned him right away too but I understand why they weren't as quick to respond as they should have been.

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Maxwell Lord
Dec 12, 2008

I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.


:smith:

Grimey Drawer
Also that hotel floors are a great place to take a dump

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