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MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

Dave Brookshaw posted:

This dumb!

The game produced was, uh.. not really the game outlined. Many inexperienced people got way carried away, the more experienced writers (like me!) were busy on other things and only had short sections. The game stopped being about the cycle of abuse in a negative way and started glorifying its characters as section after section was written by people assuming that someone else would cover the whole Non-Aspirational part of non-aspirational characters. And then it got hastily reskinned as a band-aid during the kickstarter.

Mistakes Were Made.

Another of the aforementioned dummies.

Yeah. I had a really tiny section. During the development, a lot of the less experienced people were talking and talking, and it got overwhelming. So, after a little while, I just clammed up, then wrote what was handed to me on the outline and took the check.

Although I can say I really loved developing the Hunter supplement for Beast characters. That was kind of cathartic.

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MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

MonsieurChoc posted:

Isn't that one based on Nightmare on Elm Street 3: The Dream Warriors?

Yep.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

Mors Rattus posted:

C. A. Suleiman posted a non-apology.

That's so weird. One time he walked into a panel I was participating in. I got up and walked out.

I could have sworn he was shorter than me.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

MachineIV posted:

That's so weird. One time he walked into a panel I was participating in. I got up and walked out.

I could have sworn he was shorter than me.

Then again, how could I ever hope to remember the real details of the situation?

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

Kurieg posted:

David Hill's Facebook.

Honestly I’m a little surprised she came on my post to say what she did. All offenses aside, props to someone willing to walk that minefield. I’m not exactly known for coddling people I disagree with. I’m surprised enough that later, I’m going to sit down and respond to her in the most generous way I can. I’m traveling for the weekend, and this isn’t the kind of thing I want to type out on a phone.

She’s not going to like it. At all. But I’m going to be direct and honest and try to stick to communicating relevant points as clearly as I can. And I won’t tolerate any shaming or abuse she or anyone else tried rebutting with. While she’s not engaged others in good faith, she appears to at least be trying to communicate with me in good faith. So I’ll give it a shot.

I just haven’t had time to sit down and think it through. I didn’t think it was a bridge I had left to burn. So at least I can try to get it through to some people just what’s happened here. I don’t think I’m going to change her mind. But I’ve got nothing to lose in trying. And at very least it’ll stand as another example if it goes awry.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

MachineIV posted:

Bunch of rambling.

Okay. So, here's my trying to get through. For those so inclined.

https://medium.com/@machineiv/to-green-ronin-f71044e13a6c

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

gradenko_2000 posted:

I have nothing but respect for David Hill having to wade through getting dragged back into this industry time and time again.

Eh. Thanks. But honestly I’m this case, it’s just that a lot of my friends ate hurting. So, instead of writing 5,000 words of my new novel, I tried reaching out and seeing if I could help mend some of those wounds maybe.

I get to walk away. CA has hurt my loved ones, but if I walk away from this controversy, it’s no skin off my back. And gently caress if I wouldn’t like to see some guys face consequences for the poo poo I’ve been saying was a problem for years. It’s too late for all the bridges I burned. There’s no place in tabletop games for me. But so long as people are still listening to me for some reason, why not try to affect a little change?

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

LuiCypher posted:

I'm mildly depressed by your eighteenth point, mostly because the cynic in me feels that you're right. If people in the hobby couldn't chase out Zak S. for the long term, it's sure as hell not going to chase CA out for that same timeframe.

Let's not forget that the hobby is still comprised of people who gave Blood in the Chocolate an award despite it being objectively bad. I'd like to feel like there are still a fair number of folks who work in it who are objectively good or at least self-aware (many of you may frequent this thread - for that, I thank you).

Absolutely.

Also FWIW, I don't have very high expectations at this point. Already seeing suggestions it's not going to go well.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017


It is. I haven't actually read the damned thing. I wrote... something in it. I can't even remember what, to be honest. But I haven't gotten a comp copy, so I couldn't tell you what he's talking about.

If I had to venture a guess, I'd assume it was just some of the more goofy/edgy/ridiculous poo poo that tends to fall into WtA books. Often meant as a vague criticism of the thing in question, but it's often hard to tell because of the nature of the game.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

DigitalRaven posted:

It was White Wolf who put it in.

I know because I developed the book, I got their edits, and if I hadn't accepted their changes I (and possibly the other authors, Holden and David included) would not have been paid.

But expecting Holden not to fling poo poo around as a smokescreen for his ongoing enabling of Mørke is like expecting a dog to meow.

Ugh. I figured it was something like that, or an accident because gently caress if that doesn't happen to the best of us. I haven't even seen the final product, so it's hard to speak to it. I wasn't sure if it was just a few passing, well-intended things that got blown up, or legit ugly.

And yeah, I don't at all blame you for those edits, whatever they may have been. FWIW, I HAVE been paid for that. Your efforts were fruitful in that regard. Thank you.

So sorry they hosed a game you clearly loved. For whatever it's worth, I love the few short bits I've done with you for the line. Editing for Rage Across the World was delightful. Writing for other books was great. You're a pleasure to work with, you bring great products to the table, and it's a shame they don't respect that.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

Kurieg posted:

They appear to have kept their hands off of V20.

The last V20 book I did, Black Hand, had some pretty significant edits from them. A few sections just whole cloth cut. And a few fundamental concepts they demanded I change. For example, they wanted no ambiguous statements that suggest vampires might have souls. Even a few in-character references, they said had to be changed because they didn’t want players confused into thinking vampires had souls. They said they wanted me to make it explicitly clear that vampires get souls when they achieve Golconda. They also said only vampires with souls could become wraiths. So, the few vampire wraiths in the Black Hand had to be explicitly made to have objectively achieved Golconda before death.

This might have been more realistic on the front end. But changing the book that fundamentally on the back end really hurt it.

Ironically, there were a couple of sections that I had essentially copy/pasted from the old book. Or, I guess paraphrased. Martin demanded I cut them because, as he said, “This is not Vampire. This is Harry Potter. Whoever wrote this doesn’t understand Vampire, and should go back and read the old books.” I’m fairly certain that’s the only time in my life I’ve ever done a literal spit take at work.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

Loomer posted:

But... Cappadocius became a wraith. Also you've gotta tell me what those sections were. I have to know.

Oh, god, I'm turning into a loving grognard.

Cappadocius achieved Golconda. Objectively. It’s indisputable fact according to Martin.

And god... I’ll have to look it up because it’s been a while. I wanna say there was a bit on ghoul creation and stuff that got chopped? Also most of the material on Vicissitude. A lot of Dark Thaumaturgy stuff. There was a pretty significant section about Golconda ironically. It all got cut. About half the total material on Lilith got cut.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

Kwyndig posted:

Since when did you need a soul to become a wraith anyway? Since when don't vampires have souls and how do they get around without them?

Those are very good questions and ones I asked but was told to just not worry about since “they’ll address it in the metaplot.” So I just made the changes, collected my check, and told myself not to take any more contracts. I took two minor ones after that because I’m a doofus.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

That Old Tree posted:

This is laughably stupid and all, but it's a really lovely thing to say to an employee even if you don't like what they did and wouldn't hire them again, even sort of by proxy in the case of licensed book approvals etc. What a gently caress.

So. I don't want to ascribe motivations. But I'm fairly certain I know what this was. It was absolutely a lovely thing to say to an employee. But, there's a sort of meme with White Wolf/CCP/OPP about how harsh redline notes can be. A few people have popularly talked about how utterly vicious Justin Achilli's notes were (ironically, they were some of the more fair I've seen.) And from time to time, you get developers trying to sort of one-up themselves over how lovely they can be in redline notes. I had one note from Matt McFarland that made me consider walking on a project, despite having finished my first draft and rather liking it. It was utterly lovely, disrespectful, and uncalled for. I took him to task, he apologized, and said he's just gotten used to that sort of thing because he learned from earlier examples of people saying ridiculous, hurtful, and completely uncalled for poo poo.

I'm fairly certain that since Martin worked at the CCP offices, he's heard all this, and just wants to be "part of company culture."

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

gradenko_2000 posted:

The phrase has come up in the context of Weinstein and the #metoo campaign, in the sense that women end up finding out which sex pests are to be avoided via a "whisper network" of other women clandestinely informing them of what's what.

My read is that Hagen is implying that David Hill is sending a posse to harass him, and that Hill's position of "yes you should punch Nazis" is a harbinger of Hill actually being a domestic abuser, and that he heard about it through a "whisper network".

It's kind of audacious for how impressively bullshit it is.

EDIT: Later in that twitter thread, Hill says his own wife refuted the claims. Oh and that CA Suleiman is backing up Hagen on this. What a shitshow.

Yeah. My wife demanded he apologize. Because, like, I don’t abuse her and she doesn’t want people thinking she or my children are victims. He blocked her.

Now he says he knows people I grew up with. Which is so far beyond laughable for like a dozen reasons just off the top of my head.

But it’s okay because he’s got an actual sexual abuser who like twelve women have spoken out about directly defending his honor.

I can’t even.

It’s really weird when people that helped to shape your childhood are personally launching smear campaigns against you. Maybe I can get Clive Barker and Anne Rice to dox me next.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

ProfessorCirno posted:

Hey for what it's worth it's 100% some absolute bullshit you gotta go through all this. It sucks, and I wish this industry wasn't...this.

Thanks. And yeah, same.

potatocubed posted:

I don't know about Clive Barker but as far as I know the easiest way to raise Anne Rice's ire is to publicly criticise her work.

Also, Jesus loving Christ.

Yeah actually a friend of mine had Rice go after her a while ago. That was... something. Barker seems cool from all my experience. I think my weirdest experience with celebrity or pseudo celebrity internet nonsense was watching Billy Corgan go after a trans friend. It was really bad. I had Adam Baldwin sick his alt-right goons on me about six months before he became a big name for GamerGate.

The internet’s such a great place. You know, everyone’s just so accessible.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

gradenko_2000 posted:

because he's too modest to do it himself, I'm going to shill for him: David Hill's iHunt is about Uber, but for killing vampires. The setting is extremely contemporary, the protagonist isn't cliched, and there's an economic horror aspect that's just as if not more scary than the supernatural beasts. It's the most 2017 book I ever read and I recommend it.

(a sequel is also coming Soon, if I'm not mistaken)

Aw thank you so much. I’m glad you liked it—it’s kind of like my take on Hunter: The Vigil/Buffy: The Vampire Slayer flavored by every bullshit article about millennials killing X, Y, and Z. I just decided to do a book about a millennial that kills monsters to make ends meet because it’s tough as poo poo to be poor.

And ACTUALLY, I just released a sequel on December 31st, because I told myself I was going to release another goddamned book in 2017. It’s called Mayhem in Movieland, and it’s a ghost story inspired by my time working at Disneyland, and the weird urban legends that pop up around theme parks. Specifically the weird story about the skull in Pirates of the Caribbean.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

Reene posted:

If nothing else, nobody seems to be taking Hagen seriously outside the usual suspects. I hope your mentions aren't more of a shitshow than usual, David.


Nah. Just gotten a few of the same weird random emails I get any time Zoldemort blogs about me. Nothing I can't handle.

Some of this is like... I can't tell whether to be annoyed or amused. He's apparently now going around to people I grew up with trying to dig up dirt on me?



"All these people defending the guy I'm calling a domestic abuser are harassing me. I'm not harassing anyone—I just got into an internet argument with a guy and decided to go interviewing people he played RPGs with twenty years ago over it."

I feel like if he lacked anymore self-awareness, a 1990s White Wolf game about him would say that he could simply cease to exist because self-awareness is the tapestry of reality.

MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

ProfessorCirno posted:

Like his defense is literally "I didn't REALLY accuse him of domestic violence, I was just lying so other people could secretly tell me bad things he did!"

That's his defense. That's what he thinks makes him look good.

Yep. "I didn't say he beats his wife. I was just asking questions."

My wife comes into the thread and demands he apologizes for implying that I beat her. He blocks her. He's literally using her and our children as a weapon to attack me, and won't even stand up to the person he's inferring I hurt. Then a guy who has literally groped our friends and loved ones at cons comes into the thread to defend him.

Even in the BEST case scenario for him here, where, you know, I beat my wife, he apparently knew this for some time and instead of using that information to help the victim, he held on to it until it was convenient to defend himself from internet criticisms. And, like, um, the twelve women or whatever who have spoken out about CAS were all lying and somehow Mark has credible reason to believe this. And someone clearly hacked CAS's Facebook to post the public apology for things he obviously didn't do.

These loving people.

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MachineIV
Feb 28, 2017

Mors Rattus posted:


Actually, Mummy explicitly rules out a lot of cool stuff, and often for little reason. The compact made C A Suleiman hella mad when it was written because YOU CAN’T EAT MUMMIES DAMMIT. Mummy was his baby, see. Fortunately any 2e won’t be.

Yep. When I develop Hunter material, I develop it for Hunter first, for strict adherence to the inspiration enemy splat second. Suleiman was pissed at the Faithful of Shulpae. McFarland was annoyed that I wrote a Tactic that lets you force Heroes into existence (which was partly because at the time I wrote it, you could, and I wasn’t interested in meticulously combing through a 200,000 word book over and over for every minor change.) Whatever.

That said, the Faithful were vaguely inspired by the phenomenon of people eating mummies, as noted in this thread.

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