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Strength of Many posted:I've been digging through 1e books along with some other people I know after all of this 'we're going back to our ROOTS!' stuff they keep clamoring on about with 3e and, after reading a few tidbits, I'm a bit.. surprised by what I've found. In light of recent garbage, I present for you men, women, and children of all ages; the infamous Lunars 1e sidebar. It looks like we probably will? From what I understand they might dial back on the Abyssal charms and include sidebars like these. That probably is the best that can be expected, frankly. 
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May 31, 2013 03:49
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Mexcillent posted:I also never really got the necessity of the Solar Mate background. That's going to be removed completely, they said.
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May 31, 2013 04:12
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Plague of Hats posted:Plus, as far as some people are concerned resurrection does work. For instance, sometimes it produces a Liminal Exalt. A Deathlord seeks its ancient, well preserved corpse from a well-protected tomb created by the Dragonblooded Shogunate. In doing so, it hopes to attempt to resurrect it, making it into a Liminal servant.
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Jun 2, 2013 22:35
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Heart Attacks posted:Considering the two lunars in that image, I'm not convinced that the quote is actually out of context. Even in the context of the fiction, it was jarring and out of place. This is getting kind of weird. How is the quote in context, based on the image?
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Jun 5, 2013 10:26
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Oh, I was referring to the image itself, not the fiction, specifically this quote: Heart Attacks posted:Considering the two lunars in that image, I'm not convinced that the quote is actually out of context. I'm not seeing anything overtly or even implicitly sexual in that image: of both characters only Gorilla-Conan is in a ridiculous outfit, and both characters are doing nothing more than sitting next to each other, looking out into a forest without making eye contact. What is there in this image that makes the problematic quote even more problematic? And I do agree, it's not a very good line.
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Jun 5, 2013 17:00
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Heart Attacks posted:I didn't say there was anything wrong with the picture. Yeah, that makes more sense.
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Jun 5, 2013 17:31
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Mors Rattus posted:Is it really worthwhile to not apologize in order to spare the feelings of those who will be upset you didn't double down on rape ghosts? Will an apology really be taken as anything other than intentional obfuscation before secretly doubling down on rape ghosts?
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Jun 6, 2013 19:55
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Mors Rattus posted:Well, that depends. How long have I had to wait, and what else has the man apologizing said? Right. So what precise point is an apology going to serve now? It won't give you any reason to change your mind. And, I want to add, there's really no reason to change your mind.
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Jun 6, 2013 19:58
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Ferrinus posted:Uh, yes? It depends on the content of the apology. You might recall that this thread was pretty down with John, Holden, and the rest of the team after the first day of the Abyssal pdf's release, and then went sour again only after the stupid doubling-down "clarification" came out. The actual content of their statements matter. The "clarification" was already posted. It cannot be unposted, and by and large it's already sufficient evidence for some people that the dev team is lying and will continue to lie. Holden was banned the last time he came to listen to us and apparently try to do straight talk about the Abyssal charms, I don't think that he's going to be jumping at the chance to do so again. axelsoar posted:If there was a sincere apology and a clear statement along the lines of "we won't actually publish these" I would totally re-pledge. And, I don't think we're going to get that.
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Jun 6, 2013 20:10
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AdjectiveNoun posted:I love the new art piece they just released on the kickstarter. Yeah, there's no question it's nice art.  And check out the Centurion helmet on the bottom-left corner. 
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Jun 6, 2013 20:18
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Ferrinus posted:They don't have to come back here, they can release something on the kickstarter or their own forums. This is by no means beyond their power to fix, they just don't feel like it. Are there any forums, besides this one, still arguing over rapeghosts? I realize there might be, but I don't know if anyone gave a particularly vocal drat about the "clarification" except the people on SA, going solely by the other rpg forums I lurk on. And while I agree that, yeah, the charms are bad and I'd like them to discuss it, it'd seem pretty silly to make a kickstarter update just to satisfy the handful of people on SA who even give a poo poo about the game after 2E.
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Jun 6, 2013 20:39
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Mors Rattus posted:Actually, until yesterday there was an active thread in the White Wolf Forums over it. And I'm pretty sure there's more than just people on SA who are upset, what with the G+ activity I've seen with Onyx Path folks. Are you talking about the thread on the WTF D&D article on Exalted? Because that seemed less about "yeah rape ghosts are a bad idea" and more "how dare they not consider rape-ghosts to be brilliant!" I really don't know what to say to that beyond gently caress the White Wolf forums.
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Jun 6, 2013 20:44
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Mors Rattus posted:Oh, there was plenty of that, but when their thread got locked yesterday there were a good number of folks on the other side, too. Basically: mostly terrible people but a vocal minority of non-terrible people. The G+ stuff is more heartening and less rage-inducing. The problem is the vocal minority of non-terrible people only caused a blip in the game's funding  . I mean, I was still glad that Holden was going to make an attempt to talk about the charms with us without people needing to hold the Kickstarter for ransom, but given Holden's stumbling attempts, the banning, and the thread's response I think the odds of them even so much as addressing those charms any further have sort of been torpedoed. We probably won't hear anything definitive one way or another until the Abyssals book is actually in some goon's hands. Apparently Morke says he's going to address these issues after the Kickstarter, but we've been reading something sinister into that as well. I make no claims as to whether this suspicion is founded or unfounded, I am fairly certain I am not fit to judge that.
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Jun 6, 2013 21:01
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Ithle01 posted:As much as I like some of Neph's work I'm glad someone finally said this. The 2nd ed. Abyssal charm set was bad all over and I really like Abyssals so I have some problems with him. Aside from the Only Murder theme knee-capping their charm set there was no effective surprise negator, no effective flurry breaker, and no step 7 perfect. This wouldn't be particularly damning if it weren't for the fact that he helped design the system and didn't realize that this made Abyssals terrible at combat, which was apparently the only thing they were allowed to do thanks to Only Murder. It didn't help that, when he wrote Abyssals, he deliberately went off his anti-depressants.  It showed, too, in terms of fluff 2E Abyssals were deeply nihilistic and pretty uncomfortable to boot.
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Jun 6, 2013 21:48
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:
No Milton, I think that instead we've managed to become paedropist bronies by association. 
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Jun 7, 2013 00:13
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Lymond posted:I agree. I didn't read rape in the Charm preview, but I do sympathize with those who did. I don't want to see those things in print any more than you do. Yeah, it's highly unlikely that they're trying to sneak in some sort of secret rapeghost agenda into this game. Nor is it very likely that the charms will be kept as is in the final book, given the amount of times they've already told us: "the charms will not be kept as is." Which may or may not be a lie. I don't know, is there any reason to continue to talk about how disingenuous they are in this thread, when the only possible way to prove whether they are or aren't is to have them write up Abyssals and then send us the entire copy? I don't think he was really saying "you guys are worse than Lunar fans" though? He was saying that the magnitude of the response was bigger and more negative than the ones by lunar fans. I still don't think a forthright, complete apology will be taken as anything other than an attempt at PR management either, so it's best not to say anything. Ferrinus posted:Yeah, I'm sorry, I think I came off too harsh there - I agreed with the rest of your post. It's just amazing how many people squint at the preview for a second, shrug impassively, and then turn around to explain how important it is that Thousandfold Courtesan Calculations should be the top of a twenty-charm cascade or else Exalted isn't truly for mature roleplayers. I don't think that anyone who chooses to back the Kickstart, or otherwise, ought to be held personally accountable for toxic fans. I also don't think we've made much of a case against toxic fans, given that most people who aren't have decided to write off the game as rape central. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 00:43 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 00:41
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cenotaph posted:They say they want to swear it off and then they preview the Abyssal charms. Not helping my lack of optimism. I'm curious, do you feel that when Holden said "Sure-- I said last time I was here that we put these things together to entertain, not to cause people upset or anguish, and it'd be dumb to just stick verbatim to a design note that clearly caused a lot of people a lot of distress" that he was being a manipulative puppetmaster? I can't fault you for feeling that there's no guarantee the mechanics are going to be good, but saying that they're just pretending to be socially conscious and attempting to appeal to fans who like rape, is just too hyperbolic. And just a mandatory edit, yeah, I still feel that the original charms draft was bad and that there should be more attempts to oppose rape culture in games, especially from Exalted/White Wofl.
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Jun 7, 2013 00:51
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Valhawk posted:People felt it was manipulative because while Holden said that here, the next day on the official kickstarter they doubled down on creepy rape BS. So it seemed a pretty clear case of him lying to appease the more progressive set while continuing the purile pandering. Oh, but that was said after the clarification posting on the KS, and made after the "doubling down" as opposed to before it. As for the second sentence: so you agree that any attempt by the devs to show that they don't want the game to be like 2E will just be taken as a web of lies spun to get people to buy a game that panders to creeps?
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Jun 7, 2013 01:02
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Heart Attacks posted:It would be much nicer if they'd stop saying it won't be and start showing some content that proves otherwise. And then we keep going back to what I've been saying: there's no way to show this until they crack open the Abyssals preview and we run over it to see that there's nothing problematic. Until the Abyssals book is done, of course it's going to be all talk, because that's all they can do! Heart Attacks posted:Basically, I'd be more likely to believe them if they straight up apologized, and made assurances that they weren't going to be doing this puerile poo poo on the actual kickstarter in front of god and everyone, and not just on our paywalled forum where none of the creepers will see it. And when all they can say is that they'll do that, that won't be taken as sincere. As for the paywall thing, people have been reposting what Holden's been saying here on places like rpg.net all the time. Everyone knows what's up, which is why you have creeps on White Wolf forums defending the rough draft charm design. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 01:06
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Heart Attacks posted:They haven't shown us essentially any other content at all. What do we have? Like, two Solar Charms, Solar XP, Abyssal Armor Charms, and the Abyssal Rape Tree, with the Abyssal Rape Tree being the largest portion of any revealed content to date. What was explicitly rapey in all the other previews they sent out? And they did send out a lot more than that, we got a hell of a lot more spoiler information than one charm tree they are doing their damnedest to backpedal from. Was there really anything nearly as problematic in the Infernal charms that were previewed? How did the Liminals preview relate to rape culture? I don't think I ought to make this a hill to die on, and I don't want it to sound like I'm defending this charms draft. But it's still silly to attribute a malevolent agenda to a gently caress-up they acknowledged. Mikan posted:Bedlamdan why did you turn into the XboxPants of Exalted? I don't want to be taken as a rape apologist or someone who promotes skeevy poo poo. I'll stop arguing this point.
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Jun 7, 2013 01:17
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Heart Attacks posted:The liminals preview, like the Infernals preview, like everything else, was fluff; the Abyssals preview is the biggest portion of mechanics we've gotten. The biggest suggestion of things that will actually be placed into the players hands was "rape ghosts, everywhere!" I don't think I ought to dig myself deeper into this argument: again, I absolutely understand people who consider the Abyssal charms preview in and of itself to be a dealbreaker, even if I am not entirely on the same page and more willing to attribute their decisions as mistakes rather than a secret plan to pander specifically to creepy Steve. That said, I would like to point out the statement you made is inaccurate. There was a mechanics preview in Infernals, and they previewed the Adorjan Charm tree in a similar manner to the two Abyssal trees. Additionally, the first Abyssals charm tree, the First and Forsaken Lion one, was previewed sometime in 2012. MiltonSlavemasta posted:Yeah, I would much rather see them make a public statement to that effect, stating "What was previewed and found objectionable by many was ill-thought-out and correctly identified as offensive, and no such material will be in any published 3e product." than for them to send someone here to pacify us. It would, as the pervert element have gone on the record of grognards.txt stating, anger the pervert element and therefore actually be them going out on a limb to improve the hobby. The only really public and readily-observable statement on the matter for your average backer was "Some people misunderstood our intentions with the charms" which is, for me, insufficient. They did acknowledge it was offensive, but I really think Ferrinus is on the right page in that they still want sex to be a thematic element for charms, even though they don't want them to be rape-incarnate.
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Jun 7, 2013 01:35
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Heart Attacks posted:Christ, are you this kind of guy? Sharp inhale, shove the glasses up your nose, AKSHULLY? You pointed out that there were no other charms previews. I pointed out another charms preview. I'm sorry that was too loving pedantic, buddy!  Ferrinus posted:Holden rightly points out on the White Wolf forums that tabletop RPG powers that use sex as the vector for a game-mechanical bonus rather than a game-mechanical attack are still skeevily coercive, since, gosh, I guess the only way for you to be cured of your fatal poisoning is for you to have sex with me, what are the odds of that, well I suppose there's nothing we can do, etc. When did he point that out? Was this before or after this whole thing?
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Jun 7, 2013 01:50
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I have no idea what to make of this. Is he continuing with sex as a theme? Did we change his mind? Is he implying that negative sexual connotations are more thematically appropriate than positive ones?
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Jun 7, 2013 02:02
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Mikan posted:It's also not a brand new system, which is my point. It's hilarious that skepticism or somebody being critical of an RPG thing becomes "you've really got a thing about this" though. I can understand why people are skeptical and critical of this game, and respect their reasons why. Again, they've only teased mechanical details at us, and if you find that dubious then it's totally understandable given the clusterfuck that was 2E mechanics. You have a low opinion about this game's prospects and valid reasons for feeling that way. That said, you, specifically do have a thing about this, given your history writing for this game. It doesn't mean I respect your reasons any less. Heart Attacks posted:Add that stuff together and top it off with "We aren't showing people any of the system because they'll get angry if we do," and man, I don't know how you can defend their approach to this. I can't justify their decision to not release more mechanics but speaking about their work for 2E, generally? I liked their mechanics for the most part.
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Jun 7, 2013 03:32
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GreenMetalSun posted:Glories also contained the bit where the USC was Jesus/Aslan/Captain America who pretty much won the Primordial War single-handedly by beating all the Primordials at once at the Games of Divinity because he's just so awesome. On the other hand, we also had Shards of the Exalted Dream, Compass: Autochthonia, and all the work they did getting Exalted 2E to be semi-playable. So, you know, it wasn't rape-ghosts all the way down.
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Jun 7, 2013 03:53
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GreenMetalSun posted:Glories was the last book for 2E I read and it convinced me to stop reading Exalted. Were the Dragonblooded seriously better pre-Errata? With that one integrity charm that was basically save-or-die sans the save, and the charm that turns water into a mild intoxicant (and that was pretty much it)? Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 04:11 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 04:09
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Lymond posted:Nephilpal did Ten Thousand Correct Actions. He also did the DB "nuke a city in 10 seconds flat" Charm for Dreams of the First Age. Much as I like the man, I find a lot of his work to be Not to keep throwing Nephilpal under the bus over and over again, I still think that DBs were better post Thousand Correct Actions than prior to it. It seems that there wasn't really any of the wonkiness in Defense From Anathema method that Green Metal Sun mentioned though. It was just expanded to work on both Celestial Exalted and Creatures of Darkness.
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Jun 7, 2013 04:36
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GreenMetalSun posted:It's.... right there in the Charm description.  I think my copy is different from yours.quote:For the purposes of this Charm, Anathema includes Celestial Exalted and all creatures of darkness. The defense bonus also applies against complementary units predominantly composed of or led by such beings. The capacity to ward against Creation’s enemies is a Holy effect. The defense against Celestials draws on Gaia’s Primordial power and her love for her descendants to protect them from the worst abuses of the Incarnae’s Chosen, a feat the Yozis cannot match in their broken state. The sub-soul charm is totally in my copy though. For the rest, it just looks like the only relationship DBs have with Celestials is that Celestial Exalts count as blood relatives. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 04:50 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 04:45
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Ferrinus posted:"Defense from Anathema" both granting you defense thanks to your anathema buddies and, coincidentally, defending you against your anathema foes is pretty funny. Ahahaha oh boy. Seriously though guys, I am not condoning rape in elfgames. Again, so we're clear. 
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Jun 7, 2013 04:51
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GreenMetalSun posted:Well, here's the full text. I just went and re-downloaded it to be sure. Yeah, it looks like the text in Thousand Correct Actions and the text in the current errata don't match up.
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Jun 7, 2013 04:54
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:If anyone buys the Chargen Example tier and names their character Exorcist of The Creeping Phantom or Chaste Exemplar of Discarding Lust, I will de-creepify and fully write up any three things in all of Exalted Canon It's gone now. We are at the mercy of anyone who wants to write up the Invincible Sword Princess for the thousandth time. HidaO-Win posted:I'm feeling somewhat similair, I want to embrace a more mechanically robust Exalted 3rd edition but I'm just getting a bad vibe from a lot of the interactions from the kickstarter. I'll sleep on it and make my decision before the end of the kickstarter. Yeah, to be honest I've also put myself down for a PDF and that's about it. If it really is worth getting a physical copy over, well, Print on Demand is cheaper. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 19:18
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Lymond posted:Thank you, the clarification helps. The little I know of FR comes from playing with a DM who does love his god NPCs, and having Elminster and other level 20+ people faffing around must have given me a skewed perspective on the setting. In retrospect that really doesn't sound all that different from a setting full of elder exalts and ancient ghosts faffing around.
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Jun 7, 2013 19:34
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Arivia posted:Even those people don't stand up to armies or giant apocalypses all alone like Exalts do. There's exactly once when a single character tries to fight an army (Nalavarauthoratyl, a giant dragon the size of a city, in Death of the Dragon) and she still loses. And basically all the characters like Elminster go she is crazy absurd powerful before and it doesn't "stick" in terms of that epic action creating victory. I'd still say that losing against epic threats is something that happens more often in Exalted than you think. Geoff Grabowski, when he wrote 1E, wrote it with the assumption that the setting was doomed despite everyone's best efforts. The original idea was less Gurann Lagann, and more Achilles destroying himself because despite being the best of all the Greeks, he was an acutely dysfunctional person. Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Jun 7, 2013 |
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Jun 7, 2013 19:53
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MiltonSlavemasta posted:Aristotle held that vices could be an excess of a good character trait, so one who ceaselessly cultivated the heroic virtues might have character flaws like: Honestly, I think flaws like these should be intrinsic to the Solar condition, rather than brought about by an outside Death Curse.
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Jun 7, 2013 20:41
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gently caress I'm very happy they decided to make them more diverse looking than ~elementally themed beautiful elf creatures.~
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Jun 8, 2013 19:42
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xiw posted:Oh wow. Why wasn't this image #1 for the kickstarter? Most likely? It wasn't done yet.
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Jun 8, 2013 23:27
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cenotaph posted:Volfer looks like any generic video game character which is pretty lame. The Twilight is bad, too. A sorcerer wearing robes who is greying at the temples and has a small beard and a belt pouch. Totally not a wizard. Shen was apparently modeled after Dr. Strange, which isn't too surprising given that Melissa Uran is also running a Dr. Strange fangroup.
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Jun 9, 2013 09:56
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cenotaph posted:I would have preferred if they had gone a bit farther with the sig characters. I appreciate their inclusion of various sexes, genders, and skin colors, but shirtless muscle dude and robed white guy wizard are underwhelming. Have a woman dawn caste, maybe with some actual muscles. A male twilight with a loincloth as a counterpoint to the bikini witches. I guess they have to put some dumb stereotypes out there to attract customers. On the other hand, the other three signature characters are all pretty great, and the worst you can say about Volfer and Shen is that they are boring/conservative, rather than anything daring. At the end of the day, it's still a male character that's the most underdressed, even if a kilt and a pair of boots isn't terribly daring. I certainly like the depictions of Novia and Perfect Soul a hell of a lot better than Arianna or Harmonious Jade. But seriously, they ought to go all-out Namor on a male character. Melissa Uran loves Namor, too.
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Jun 9, 2013 22:18
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Thesaurasaurus posted:Even then, saying Unarmed has an advantage is false, since it takes a lot less effort to hack someone's arms off than to destroy an artifact. Pretty much. The only reason to focus on unarmed combat in prior editions was to take advantage of Martial Arts, and mixing a whole bunch of moves together in a single attack. And even then, you always had to throw a player a bone and say "smashfists are giant metal fists, and therefore always count as unarmed too." Bedlamdan fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Jun 9, 2013 |
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Jun 9, 2013 22:49
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Nessus posted:I'd think the balancing would be that (generally speaking) kungfu will lead to less raw damage but more tricks and schemes than swordaxe. Surely, the infrastructure needed to create giant oiled pillars to climb with your developing ripple magics is broadly comparable to the infrastructure needed to make a magic sword! If nothing else, if that's still insufficient the weapon-category/tags thing they have going on makes it really easy to fix. "Your hands now count as swords."
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Jun 9, 2013 23:10
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