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Wow yeah gonna enjoy reading every straight white male gamer opinion about how the sexual assault thing "totally works". It definitely makes you uncomfortable and that's what he was clearly going for, but is it okay...? The answer, of course, is no.
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Aug 15, 2013 19:45
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Babe Magnet posted:The game is actively making fun of and dismissing people who use rape as a shock tactic to make their works for edgy and "mature", though I can guess that's hard to see when you're so hellbent on viewing anything even approaching the subject of "rape", whether in a positive or negative light, as something evil that must be erased. The director, who's intent to use rape just to make his film darker, is depicted as an obvious scumbag and just a lovely person in general. The game is not using rape to make itself seem more horrible and edgy, it is trashing those people who do. Man I love this argument, the one where you excuse it because of all the murder your character does. Like there are any murder victims around to be triggered. Bonus points for using it in a sentence where you criticize people for not thinking hard enough.
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Aug 15, 2013 19:47
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voltron lion force posted:Why not? Because the shock value is only good for triggering actual rape victims. The commentary about how rape is dumb or whatever is completely worthless afterwards.
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Aug 15, 2013 19:50
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voltron lion force posted:Haha how is it "supporting sexual violence"? Do you think a lot of people who get triggered by a loved ones murder play ultra violent murder games? Also that's not the same at all by the way.
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Aug 15, 2013 19:51
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voltron lion force posted:I don't agree with that. I think most people, even those that aren't rape victims, can be shocked by its depiction. Pointlessly shocked. That's why I said it's "only good for" triggering.
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Aug 15, 2013 19:53
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voltron lion force posted:I think the Babe Magnet explained a perfectly valid point to it. I assume you don't think that's pointy enough though. He made a terrible point, it's the opposite of a perfectly valid point. The developer making fun of other developers using rape for shock value by using rape for shock value did nothing except the exact same thing, with some worthless commentary afterward.
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Aug 15, 2013 19:58
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Fag Boy Jim posted:i think an analysis of the entire game is necessary to really see if something like this "works"- the rape scene in Straw Dogs is horrific out of context, and very arguably horrific in context, but criticisms of it that don't take the full context of the film into account can't be considered informed No, it's not necessary. The criticism is that rape shouldn't be in video games, not how effective the commentary is.
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Aug 15, 2013 19:59
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voltron lion force posted:See you say the commentary is worthless, but it re-frames the whole situation. But I see now that there is literally no way you'd ever be ok with this so whatever. You're missing the point entirely, over and over. The commentary is worthless because it doesn't even work. Look at all these people, including you, who don't even agree with what it's saying. It's saying it shouldn't be used for shock value in video games and you cheer on an example of it that happened right before it, like idiots.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:05
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Babe Magnet posted:As long as you don't press buttons to perform the rape (the whole part is in a cutscene, you don't actually perform Rape Combos), I don't see what the difference is between it being in a game and it being in a movie or a book. Regardless of whether or not you're advocating it by using it, you used it and it has the same negative effect as an advocated use.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:06
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Fag Boy Jim posted:once again, it's germane that nobody has the knowledge of the full context of that scene. Once again, it shouldn't even be there so who cares if I know exactly what it means.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:07
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Fag Boy Jim posted:that's impossible to say without knowing how the scene fits in context, come off it. It's not impossible to say. Rape commentary doesn't belong in video games.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:09
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Miltank posted:Why not? This game isn't Mario. Rape commentary isn't just any commentary. Rape commentary has victims. e: Victims OF IT I mean. It hurts people.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:11
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Babe Magnet posted:You don't play the rape part. It's literally 10 seconds, maybe, of a non-interactive cutscene. Why does it being in a videogame matter? Are videogames not allowed to have as heavy themes as movies or books? Yeah but that doesn't matter because the article that spawned this discussion clearly shows how affected someone was by what little happened. Do you think a rape victim can be triggered less than fully? Also I don't even see much of an argument for why rape should be in movies or books either, because it's not like it can be tastefully done.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:14
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voltron lion force posted:Well that is what a parody is ain't it? The over the top imitation of the actual act is what gets the point across. Parody does not automatically make itself valid. Also most parodies don't actually hurt innocent people.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:15
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Miltank posted:So do war movies honestly. I know it is by know means a 1-1 comparison, but there is tons of media that can potentially trigger PTSD in victims. Maybe we shouldn't have those either then? I don't know what you're trying to tell me here.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:17
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Babe Magnet posted:Rape commentary should be allowed in anything that wants to put it in, because censorship kills creative works, and even if I agreed with you that it couldn't be handled maturely, I wouldn't agree that completely shutting down any discussion of it would be any better. This does not mean I think people should be immune to the consequences of their actions just becuase they say it's a work of art. If some shithead wants to add rape completely out of context to a work of theirs for shock value or anything like that, than they deserve any backlash they get, and if the Hotline Miami devs sink because they mentioned rape in their game, than so be it, they went into this project knowing full-well what kind of reception they could get. Yep, do whatever you want. Be as terrible a person as you want to be, and be wrong about everything you do. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Aug 15, 2013 20:22
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RBA Starblade posted:Do you really think not talking about rape will improve anything? Will ignoring it change rape culture for the better? Nope, I don't think that and I never implied anything close to thinking that. I don't know why you think I believe that, because having a bunch of rapes in books or videogames or movies is nothing like actually discussing rape.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:28
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RBA Starblade posted:Media is really, really good at starting discussions and spreading awareness of an issue, discussions that can't start if you never bring it up and pretend it isn't there. What they're really, really good at is normalizing rape and artificially darkening their writing of a character. What actual people are good at is discussing it, and they do it often with no help from movie rape #3059.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:36
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RBA Starblade posted:So you don't think removing commentary and mention of rape isn't going to just perpetuate that culture too? You said rape commentary shouldn't be written about because it can trigger people and because, in works of fiction, it can't be done tastefully. Short of news articles saying "this person was raped" I don't see what that leaves, and I don't see how that can trigger much discussion or change, especially in areas like that shithole town in Ohio that was on the news recently. I don't want to talk to you anymore.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:45
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Theodyn posted:Were we talking about rape in this thread before the game brought it up? No. But it has now made us talk about it. We, or I, am talking about what a piece of poo poo cactus or whoever is for doing this.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:46
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Miltank posted:If you think that a butcher in a pig mask shooting a women in the gut and then raping her is normalizing rape you are dead wrong. If anything these depictions of rape are dangerous because they otherize the rapist too strongly. The vast majority of rapists know their victims personally. I don't think that and I didn't make any sort of implication to that. All I said was that the media is good at normalizing rape.
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Aug 15, 2013 20:56
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Fag Boy Jim posted:This is true, but I don't think it's a good case for deciding that it's completely verboten to be put into media. Nope, I clearly said that everyone is free to be as terrible as they want with their "artistic vision".
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Aug 15, 2013 21:05
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Miltank posted:Ok so you weren't referring to the media that we are discussing. How does media in general normalize rape then? I don't understand what you want me to tell you. You want me to explain what normalization is?
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Aug 15, 2013 21:06
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Fag Boy Jim posted:Your position seems to still be that all fictionalized depictions of rape are unambiguously bad, regardless of their context. Unless it's a fictitious example of rape in like a textbook, yeah that's basically how I feel.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:07
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Fag Boy Jim posted:What do you mean "fictitious"? I mean, obviously a depicted rape in fiction "actually happened" diegetically (unless it's like, a dream sequence or something), but we still understand diegesis in fiction to be fictitious, don't we? What the hell is wrong with you, that is way beyond the point.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:12
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Fag Boy Jim posted:Whatever point you're trying to make isn't coming across, because your use of "fictitious" is confusing. Somebody making up an example of rape for demonstrative presentation in a textbook format. Come on dude.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:15
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Miltank posted:I guess I want you to explain what you think normalization means and then explain how it applies in the way that you used it. Are you trying to find an argument of mine to pick apart? If you really want to discuss something with me, let's make it my actual focus; this game.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:39
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Zombies' Downfall posted:Have you ever considered the notion that your singular repulsion to the concept of rape and its depiction is precisely why media and stories should and sometimes need to use it? It evokes concepts and emotions that a spirited argument or a gunfight can't. It can be used cheaply or salaciously (like consensual sex, or non-sexual violence) and it might be here, but the idea that there's no such thing as a justifiable depiction of it is betrayed by the severity of your own response. My repulsion comes from the way it hurts people, not the feelings of discomfort. As far as I'm concerned, depictions of rape are careless, hurtful, ignorant aggressions towards innocent people.
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Aug 15, 2013 21:45
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MadBimber posted:So,...Hotline Miami? ??? Rape has victims that are actually alive. And if you're triggered by killing in killing games then I guess you made a really loving dumb purchase. e: ^^^ same to that guy
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Aug 15, 2013 21:51
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I don't know, I've always been taught not to try to compare miseries. rape is bad. Killing is bad.
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Uh I think I made my point. I'm not going to spend a bunch of time arguing theoretics on an offhand comment that has little to do with my actual focus.
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Aug 15, 2013 22:04
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