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Kudos to this thread (and I guess then to the anime) for getting me to catch up on the Genshiken manga. Taking that all in as a shot, it seems to me that while Hato dominates the flow of the group, that's not necessarily unrealistic given the characters at hand vs. his issues. He's the only one of the main cast who really seems to have an internal conflict, where as all of the new blood and the old blood seem to have come to terms with their fandom and sense of self a long time ago (or so they think.) In this sense, Hato is set up to be the Ogiue or Sasahara of this generation of Genshiken because his character journey towards self-acceptance is the key instigator of development in any other character, just as it often was with the central characters of the older arcs. Like those two, Hato is coming to terms with where his fantasies stop and start and what they mean, and unlike with Ogiue or Sasahara, I don't think the out boils down to the right set of friends and social skill improvement being a cure all, which is a nice shift of pace for Genshiken. Some of the give will have to come from the other characters. Plus, the character development does really pick up as the chapters go by: the most recent half dozen chapters of Nidaime were almost heart breaking to read because Hato's sexual and gender confusion feel genuine, and he really doesn't seem capable of handling those feelings anymore. Something that was deeply repressed is coming loose, and the exploration of that is going to be pretty satisfying, though emotionally heavy. Plus, Hato provides a character that might make a move on Madarame that Madarame can reject, which brings symmetry to Madarame as a character. Now that he's been directly rejected by Saki, it seems like a solid piece of character progress for him to break a heart, and really, Hato provides the ultimate excuse for Madarame to reject a character. I don't think a no would be as much of a given in any other situation. Beyond that, Kio's now really setting up Yajima to confess to Hato lately, and that whole situation seems like rich with opportunities for character development as well. As happy as Yajima seems with her own fujoshi-dom, Hato challenges her world view by being a good friend/nice person, but also a BL-loving crossdresser. She seems to be gradually falling for Hato because of this, but I have to wonder if Hato will also end up being someone who rejects a confession. Basically, I'm really looking forward to the rest of the anime (it definitely seems like IG is doing a lovely job of it so far, down to the judo skills of Hato,) and I'm glad I'm back into the manga. Kio may tread a fine line here, but it seems to be working out to me. Edit: So I've killed the thread. Figures. Anyway, the second episode was rather clever with how it rearranged the flow of chapters to hone in on Hato's development and Ogiue's manga debut story line, and it looks like similar shifts may be in order to tighten together Madarame's development. Depending on how they pace the adaptation and elements are tightened, they could conceivably animate all but the most recent 4-8 chapters of the manga. I'm definitely curious to see where IG will call it quits. Ultraklystron fucked around with this message at 10:50 on Jul 14, 2013 |
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Jul 10, 2013 09:14
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↑^^While I already bought into Hato from the numerous cross dressing cosplayers I've met, that does seal the deal. That said, this episode almost exactly adapted the material I thought it would. What I didn't expect was how unbalanced that would end up feeling. It's much shippier than the manga when those two stories are put in one episode, even though they include an interlude regarding the completion of Ogiue's manga to imply the passage of time. I also didn't think they'd be getting to the summer comiket events so soon. They're gonna run through this manga in no time unless the bigger plot points get broken up between episodes. I didn't expect Hato's stand to be quite so energetic either, but it works. Still, I'm enjoying it every bit as much as the manga, as the direction and animation are rather tight, even if it's altering the tone a bit.
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Jul 23, 2013 08:49
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You know, while they skipped over the content of 8 and 9, I feel like it made a lot of sense to jump to the new generation since they have so few episodes to play with. Yes, this adaptation is proving to be pretty brisk (definitely didn't expect them to be at Summer Comiket by episode 4 - at this rate they may adapt pretty much everything the new generation has done so far,) but it would've been awkward to shift focus halfway through from the older cast to the new cast when there are only 12 or 13 episodes to play with. Maybe if Nidaime does well, an OVA series for the missing volumes could happen. Genshiken does love its OVA episodes. On Episode 4: Again, I didn't expect them to be at Summer Comiket this soon, but it does make it more likely that the good stuff from most recent chapters might just make it to the screen. The direction nor the animation aren't at all suffering from the brisk pace either. I know it's Production IG and they don't mess around, but I figured it was so low budget that things like procedurally-generated, 2D-CG crowd scenes would be off the table. Instead, it's looking rather good, and the actual pace and rhythm of the episode doesn't feel forced. I just hope that Comiket concludes in the next episode. If they stretch it, I think it'll be pretty obvious where the anime leave off.
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Jul 30, 2013 09:06
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^^ Awesome. No matter what's on them, I hope NiS America's license for Nidaime includes both of those episodes. Especially since it's a reasonable assumption that anyone who is picking up Nidaime owns the original series as well, and thus might want the time skip filled in.
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Jul 30, 2013 12:24
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^I don't think there can be much doubt that Kio intends to handle Hato carefully and seriously, since he's basically using the character in the same way used Sasahara and Ogiue as they were first introduced. Hato is also on a journey of self-acceptance/realization, so some where in here we're going to get some denouement on that for Hato. I don't think the subject matter itself will even be the sticking point, especially since Kio is calling Hato an otokonoko and a fudanshi. Those are different issues to traps, and really suggests that Kio is trying to sincerely explore a real subculture just like he did otaku and fujoshi previously. No fetishist aspects are in play beyond what you'd expect the socially maladroit members of the Genshiken to bring up. However, Hato's issues are to going intersect with and heavily effect Madarame's own arc of getting over Saki, and that creates a convoluted enough situation that at the very least, it might be hard to keep everyone likeable. If Hato puts too much pressure on Madarame to pair off with one of the girls interested in him as a way of shutting off his crush on Mada, Hato could easily upset everyone else in the Genshiken with his behavior. Sue could call Hato out on that if not out his crush if it really gets out of hand, which would hurt her character too. She's already on thin ice for her real life shipping antics. Basically, things are being set up to make Hato's denial of his otokonoko/fudanshi interests if not bisexuality or homosexuality or transgender issues end up as a way bigger problem for himself and his friends than just embracing or at least productively trying to understand who he is. That really feels thematically right for Genshiken as well. It might not be that comedic, but a lot of the big plot shifts in Genshiken aren't. Ultraklystron fucked around with this message at 01:03 on Aug 2, 2013 |
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Aug 1, 2013 20:13
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Sonata Mused posted:The manga hasn't been updated in a while, I think, but the other girls get overshadowed a lot. I think the winter comiket arc is going to open the door for a lot more development for Yajime, but that may still leave Yoshitake in a support role for now. That said it's not like Genshiken has always developed every character evenly. A lot of male cast from the original manga were never as developed/focused on as Sasahara and Madarame. Also, the very attributes that make Yoshitake likable/fun probably mean she's so comfortable in her fujoshi nature right now that her development probably won't happen until something changes - there's no conflict in her to resolve as she is now. Maybe once her sister is in Genshiken (which will happen if the manga keeps going,) something can be put in motion for Yoshitake.
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Aug 18, 2013 08:46
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^^I think a manga thread would be awesome, if you're game. Ogiuemaniax does great summaries, but I'm always game for extra info on these new chapters. Anything to tide me over until the physical volumes are released. On your spoilers: I would say it strains plausibility but not possibility, especially since the character at the center of it all has matured so much. Plus, the people expressing interest in said character are the kind of people I have seen go for that type in the Western fandom, just not usually all at once. Usually.
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Aug 24, 2013 00:43
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@sincx - Nice summary. It's interesting to see Kuchiki get some development through this chapter as well. His reasons for cheering up Hato and for getting Madarame to hook with Angela are a bit self-centered ultimately, but it's still showing a more thoughtful side of what is otherwise a rather one note character. It's a rather clever piece of development. Regarding episode 8: The cold open this time was almost too long, but it did set things up well otherwise. I also enjoyed the subtle fact that Yoshitake's drinking a beer in the cold open since we now know she's actually 20. After this point, I have to say it really handles these chapters of the manga quite well, though the scene with Mada waking in on Hato changing seemed much more amped up in animated form. On the other hand, it better sets up some of the later plot points they may adapt from the manga, since if Hato is having fantasies that instant and explicit regarding Mada walking in on him, Hato's sudden moves on Mada in the club room in chapter 85 seem less surprising. He really kind of falling for Madarame, and he's with in right to panic. The dating sim elements used in the fall out from that scene were rather clever as well, though it felt a little un-Genshiken to break the fourth wall like that too. I suppose it's made up for the visual story telling in the next scene with Hato's stand appearing inspite of Hato's crossdressing - it's like Madarame loosening his tie suddenly crossed a critical line. All in all though, it's another very good and very funny yet touching adaptation of the source material. I think IG could bail the rest of the adaptation and I'd still buy it at this point. Ultraklystron fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Aug 26, 2013 |
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Aug 26, 2013 18:19
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^^^^ Angela's interest is a bit of a retcon, so in that meta-context of the work, it seems more likely to be authentic than not, especially since it's also part of the author assembling this harem situation for Mada. Also, as someone who has been in the cultural side of anime, surprisingly weird tastes aren't uncommon. For every visually expected couple I've seen in otakudom, I've also seen surprises that are based purely on unexpected tastes and shared hobbies. I've seen Angela/Mada-like couples at cons, so why not in fiction? In fact, in Genshiken itself there is Ohno (who is obviously meant to be viewed as rather attractive) and Tanaka (who while not as hardcore as Mada at peak force, is still presented as best plain if not heavily otaku.) Only difference here is Mada is less perceptive, more timid and is faced with more choices. There may also be a secondary message in this to otaku who identify with Mada. Specifically, just because Mada didn't get the girl he wanted, doesn't mean there aren't people interested in him, if he can open his eyes. It fits thematically with general message of Genshiken as well: self-acceptance leads to self-actualization. Mada's gotta realize that as weird as he is, he is more than worthy of love, and he has options. That may fit with a decent portion of the readership of Genshiken too. Ultraklystron fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Aug 27, 2013 |
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Aug 27, 2013 21:42
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^^^^ If it's gonna drive people from this already quiet thread, I'm cool with keeping manga spoilers in spoiler tags with a note that they are from the manga just to make sure. Thoughts? That said, episode 9 dropped. Episode 9 spoilers: I'm surprised they kept as much of the process behind making the club's magazine as they did. I would've figured they'd abbreviate that a little more so that they could get more of the festival in this episode, but I guess they're splitting up. That said, it was great to keep in the stuff from the cold open - it's a reminder of the history of the Genshiken, and it keeps it from being too Hato-centric. It's also cute and heartwarming to see Sasahara try and take on some aspects of Ogiue's vision of him. It's an awkward love between them, but it's love for sure in those moments. Meanwhile, Ogiue's reaction to seeing adult fanart of her characters and Hato's auto-BL drawing of the two jerks from the club committee were really quite funny. On the prior part, I have to wonder if some of that was reflective of Kio's own experience seeing the first Genshiken doujinshi. Shock, with interest nonetheless. Once the festival kicks off, Sue's constant demanding of food from the ex-manga club members was cute, though just as cute were the ex-manga-club members booking it while Sue waited expectantly for another bite of food. Everyone's high school friends turning up was an interesting touch, because it's acknowledgement of how much has changed since Sasahara and Ogiue were in High School. Even unrepentant fujoshi like Yoshitake can find a clique of like-minded individuals to be friends with. Just as tellingly, Hato seems to rue meeting his old classmates which suggests that while otaku and fujoshi have found their space with in society, fudanshi and otokonoko really haven't. This is all the more reason this season had to center on someone like him. Also, it figures that it's Kuchiki who blows his cover. Kuchiki exists in that universe to mess things up most of the time. It'd be thin characterization if wasn't so plausible. Manga spoilers relating to this episode that go up past chapter 86: They left on a huge cliffhanger this time. However, I think they're gonna do that again though, because unless they were carefully trying to keep the Mada/Saki confession out of the preview, that's gonna end up being episode 11. Possibly with Hato looking around the campus for Mada in the cold open just like in the start of chapter 80. If so, it leaves the show almost perfectly sets up to end on the worst cliffhanger of the series, namely Hato's breakdown in chapter 86. The last shot of the show may be Hato in men's clothing in the Genshiken or Yajima reacting to that scene. It's a seemingly negative note to end on, but it's at least a defined note with a fantastic set of moments leading into it. No other part of the manga that's just after the Mada/Saki confession has as strong an emotion to end on.
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Aug 31, 2013 22:46
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Xelkelvos posted:Just like the original series, they may finish up anything not done in the season with an OVA or something. That way any potential cliffhangers can get resolved in a relatively more timely manner like OreImo did. True, the OVAs could buy them extra time, but the general consensus seems to be that the two OVAs we're getting will cover the missing material in between the old TV series and Nidaime. That might just be wishful thinking on the part of the old line fans, but it also makes a lot of sense cause it'd get some the original fans who bailed because of the fujoshi stuff to at least consider the BDs/DVDs. Additionally, (manga spoilers) you'd need way more than two episodes to clear the air if they end the broadcast with Hato's breakdown, and those episodes would take us right into where manga is right now in winter comiket arc. Plus, it's unclear how that arc will end. Hato's attempt to get Mada and Angela underway may force the hands of all girls in contention for Mada, and might even force Hato to come clean too. With so much that could happen from that point, it really feels like the makings of a second season to me rather than something for a few OVAs. Basically, even if the OVAs covered new stuff rather than prequel material, they will probably still leave off with Hato turning up to the Genshiken in men's clothing, if only because there isn't another full storyline to animate yet. EDIT - Chapter 90 just materialized in English, along with some big spoilers for 91: Well, it looks like Madarame will know about all of the crushes before all is said and done in this arc. It's definitely straining plausibility, but at the same time, it offsets the slower pace. Basically, if each multi-chapter arc is going to have revelations of this scale by the end of it, it's a fine balance against stretching out comiket over half-a-year. Plus, it's an impossible scenario; eventually Mada was going to know who all had an interest in him one way or the other. This at least keeps the manga from being even slower with a series of chapters for each revelation... Wait, that's what Kio's been doing already. Gah, it all makes sense now! Angela made a move, Keiko made some very subtle moves, Sue made a move and Hato came dangerously close to making a move. Shoot, Kio is crafty. Hato's trap stuff was mostly a distraction in setting up the Mada harem. I can't wait for the next chapter. Ultraklystron fucked around with this message at 09:11 on Sep 4, 2013 |
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Sep 1, 2013 02:10
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^^^I think as it's been animated, there's been a shift in opinion on Nidaime. It's either finding it's audience and drowning out the negativity, and/or the haters are being won over since the anime has really helped certain scenes with the direction and music. I mean, Episode 11 definitely holds even more weight if you've been following Genshiken from the start, but the music and direction alone really sold the emotion of the key scenes. It was really touching to see it animated, and it really makes me hope we get a second season so (manga spoiler)we can see Madarame finally recognize his new found harem. I also have to say that (anime spoiler)that Saki suddenly crying and revealing at that point she'd been trying to not let on was kind of mean was a great bit of character development, and it made a lot of sense. The little call out to Spotted Flower in this episode was cute and nicely meta as well. On the manga chapters that were just translated Kio's setup a lot of interesting possibilities for the next year of Nidaime, and it's rather interesting to see how he's really lined up Mada as the central character while telling this story largely through Hato's experiences and feelings, much in the way Sasahara was used to focus on Ogiue, whose backstory Kio obfuscated until the last moment. Seeing Yajima call out Hato on trying force Mada into something with Angela was great development for both characters as well. In general, I think Kio has moved to showing rather than telling for as many characters in Nidaime as possible, and while it means some of the actions come of the blue since we don't get an internal "I think I like him"-dialogue from every person interested in some one, it's more compelling to have those sudden revelations. Seeing how Mada copes with this whole Hato/Sue/Angela/Keiko harem will be interesting, and will probably heavily foreshadow anything that happens with Hato once this Mada harem arc resolves. As far as the next episode goes, it looks like they will actually wrap it by burning off the rest of the festival arc, which is probably the happiest place to end it. That said, it'll be interesting to see if OVA episodes cover the missing material from the end of the old manga, or if they try to cover (manga spoilers)Hato's attempted Mada-kiss and subsequent breakdown and rejection of BL and crossdressing instead.
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Sep 15, 2013 01:07
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IG pulled off a nice fake out by very strictly adapting the manga until the two minutes. Episode 12 spoilers that don't tie to the manga: Mada's face upon hearing Hato's de-facto confession and realizing what Saki was getting at about the harem route ending was adorably awkward. The slight tension in the last shot of his hands spells out "is this okay?" wordlessly. Otherwise, there were a lot of other visual touches that really worked better here than in the manga. It's a lot clearer in the anime (anime spoilers and spoilers for the original manga) that when Mada has quit his job, he's not only wearing the exact same kind of clothes he used to before Saki took him out shopping - that straight up Akihabara otaku look - but his face is more gaunt again and his body language is generally depressive and less together. He's slouching, his shirt is untucked and the clothes themselves are hanging differently on his body. To drive the point home, it's a look that is explicit contrast to Hato's flashbacks of Mada in the next scene. IG really worked some subtle details in on this episode. That said, I hope the OVA episodes/episode 13(?) handle the cliffhanger it leaves off on (not that that the trailer makes it look like that's happening,) or that BD release picks up enough stream to get it a second season down the road that manages to return to strictly following the manga. Though, it'll take so long before there's enough stuff for a second season that may international response will have a hand in pushing for more of it. I'd complain about the fact it looks like we are getting an anime original ending, except that so far, it seems like it'll a rather satisfying bit of denouement. Ultraklystron fucked around with this message at 21:59 on Sep 22, 2013 |
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Sep 22, 2013 21:51
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I personally lean towards it being Mada and Saki, but either way, even with it's incredibly telegraphed punch line, this most recent chapter of Spotted Flower was outstandingly hilarious to me. Seriously, I laughed for a good minute or two. As far as the sudden deviation is concerned, I have to think it's to give it a more positive end than the straight adaptation would. The next several chapters after that point are either cliffhangers or non-endings, and that seems too harsh for Genshiken. That, or they are going to have a TV end and an OVA end as is the fashion. Seems meta enough for this show.
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Sep 25, 2013 04:27
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^^Regarding Manga Events: I wouldn't really say it's out of nowhere. While we only see Hato admiring the aspects of Mada's personality that have improved from the reader's perspective, it seems unlikely that he's the only one whose noticed those things. I think it's also a bit of a reflection on the different ways people can show interest and how in spite of that, Mada's too dense to get it no matter how it's coded. Angela is the only who owns up to her interest and makes it clear, perhaps because her interest is the least complex. Meanwhile, Sue plays the same game of cryptic anime references she did with Ogiue, probably thinking that his reciprocation is both attractive and meaningful. He indulges her otaku antics rather than being exasperated with them. It also lets Sue maintain some distance because though she pretty clearly doesn't want Angela to be with Mada, Sue might feel bad being with Mada instead (which would also explain why Sue wanted Hato to be with Mada - that way Angela and her both lose, so neither has to feel like they ruined the friendship.) Keiko tries to jab Mada into action in as much she probably wants him to get over Saki much like how she got over Kousaka (and for that matter, Kousaka could have developed a side of her that's interested in otaku.) Also, considering she went from thinking of him as an idiot to someone she wanted to impress at her job, I think it implies Keiko's noticed the changes in Mada considering she noticed his interest in Saki - we know she's perceptive. Hato is genuinely sexually perplexed regarding his attraction to Mada, and so also doesn't cop to his feelings. Between the repression and Mada's density, we get this kind of scenario. Really, I think there have been hints, especially in comparison to how those characters acted in Nidaime vs. the original series, as they are reflective of the growth of Mada's character between the two series. While Mada is hopeless at noticing the changes in the people around him most of the time, the reverse is that everyone else in the Genshiken tends to know who is interested in whom (as underlined by Kio with the confession/school festival arc.) Also, I think Kio may have wanted the harem to be as shocking to the readers as it was to Madarame, so he couldn't really show everyone falling for him in a developed way without spoiling it. Little hints would be all we'd get so he could probably build that reveal. The tell as to whether it's really just empty-headed harem stuff will be how much he goes into detail filling in the gaps, though, since it's a monthly, I wouldn't expect it to as well developed as the one-on-one romances in Genshiken. It's way easier to have the details of two characters than five. That said I think the last episode of the TV show might shortcut us to the same development given the description of chapter 92. I guess we'll see soon enough.
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Sep 28, 2013 18:02
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On the bonus OVA: Lovely seeing this material animated. Again, I wish the whole manga had been this nicely animated. Little details like "Sisters Complex" on the merch are just one example of how a little extra work adds extra humor and depth. It's also kind of sweet seeing the old (young?) Ogiue awkwardly blabber and parse her feelings. Her character has really grown up and taken charge in Nidaime. Madarame is genuinely moe with his "I wonder where the other group is" line while turning his head like he doesn't care, and it's made all the more transparent when he goes into his old Mada-rant mode. He's subliminally tsundere and that's about as sou-uke as it gets. As for the billionth discussion of "Has Hato ruined Genshiken forever?/Has Kio Shimoku fallen off?," I have to say Kio explicitly reveals a lot more about the motivations of new side-characters than I think we had in the original series, and has kept the cast tight to make sure it stays focused. Even Kuchiki has more backstory at this point than Kuga ever got. Yoshitake and especially Yajima are getting the kind of development that Mada was getting when he was secondary to main arcs of Sasahara and Ogiue. That development really makes me look forward to the fall out of the Mada confessions as the chapters continue. Kio is nothing if not more than willing to sow plot seeds that flower over the course of years, so I don't doubt there will be interesting payouts eventually. I think in Hato's case, precisely because the audience can't come at it from "I'm an otaku like Sasa/I'm a fujoshi like Ogiue," he's really trying not to trivialize Hato's problems by abbreviating them. Kio is spelling out things for an audience assumed to be unfamiliar with these issues. It also works through what happens when someone's obsessions/passions/drives don't even find a proper place in the Genshiken. I think it's very honest of Kio to work through something that difficult in a work that could take it easy and keep it's audience happier. Yeah, having a sexually-confused trap seems trite and perhaps a little unrealistic in the context of Genshiken, but relative to most manga with a trap character, Kio has provided leagues more depth and realism. Hato's issues take more time to unpack, and so they're going to take more to work out than Sasahara's or Ogiue's or Madarame's, but Kio is facing that head on. However, I can easily concede the point that a story like Hato's isn't necessarily what people came to Genshiken for either. I also think it's a separate enough beast that even if you don't like the new series, I don't think it ruins the legacy of the original run of Genshiken. Same with Spotted Flowers if not more so since it's not even canon (yet.)
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Dec 29, 2013 02:57
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I have to wonder if any of the people put off by the Hato business are more positive on the last two chapters, especially since Madarame visits Sasahara's sister at the Hostess bar, and seems to be enroute to spending the night at her place since he missed his train. That said, I'll admit that the harem stuff would be too out of place if not for the self aware attitude of everyone in that loop. While I question it's existence in the first place myself, at least the responses from all involved seem rather otaku/fujoshi in their nature.
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Aug 11, 2014 01:07
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